I have lost resources because of switching to L4
Comments
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Dan,
thanks for the update. It sounds like you all are working diligently on things. It's good to hear these details.
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DanPritchett said:
we are trying very hard to prepare for the big launch where we begin to communicate with our customers through mass email, direct mail, print ads in other publications, and more. We have done nothing like that yet, and hope by the time we do we will be well prepared to answer all the upgrade questions.
Thanks for the update. One correction....the 16 page ad in Bible Study Magazine. [;)]
All jesting aside - Keep up the great work!
John
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Dan, well done. That was very good.
I think I'm making a "Dan Pritchett is my homeboy" t-shirt... anyone want to order one?
Logos user since '99
Ross
MacBook Pro 15' Retina • 2.7 GHz Intel Core i7 • 16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3 • Version 10.10
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I think part of the reason this is such a controversial product introduction is that, for old time users, it seems that the Logos priority is now new users. Whenever a complaint surfaces about a feature/function that a user relies upon being unavailable in version 4, the answer is "well of course you can still use version 3".
But we all know version 4 is the only future for the product, as you can't stay on version 3 forever if you see bible software as a dynamic that needs to grow with your needs. So to that set of old users, the message today is "You can't move ahead and keep what you have. In 3-6 months you can." That's not a happy message.
Those users also hear "Don't upgrade, we'll work with the new users with our new product, when it catches up to what you had then jump on". Is that a good way to treat the loyal customers that bought product and resources in the past? Is the lure of new customers so great you are willing to take a little risk with the old timers? If the new users are the priority now, what if new features demanded by new users prevent the functionality of old users from getting in for a very long time, if ever? All of these questions start to come into play when you signal that the old users are not the priority in product development decisions.
A year from now this will likely all blow over, save a few scars, when old users have an updated version of 4 that has most if not all of their functions they use today. I hope it does, for Logos' sake and the users' sake. But you can't be surprised old users are taken aback because of this, and to think that getting new functions is an adequate response for people missing existing functionality is somewhat naive IMHO.
Let's just hope that the new users are worth it, and that we don't find that a lot of old users move their dollars in another direction when they don't feel they can safely move ahead with Logos for 3, 6, or 9 months. The business lure of new users compromised what existing users thought was important in many cases, and if it happened once it can happen again. The trust has at least been compromised.
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Don Awalt said:
I think part of the reason this is such a controversial product introduction is that, for old time users, it seems that the Logos priority is now new users.
Huh? How can I express my confusion at reading such a baseless statement?
I'm a long time Logos user (since 1.6), and judging by the incentives I've gotten recently, and the way Logos has listened to requests for certain missing features long-time users asked for, I'm feeling pretty prioritized. Judging by the many happy long-time users on this forum, I'd say the feeling is fairly wide-spread (though not universal, I grant).
I'm also thrilled with Logos4. It's a much better upgrade than the one from version 2 to version 3 (which also had a its detractors)
Of course Logos wants to go after new users. I hope they do.That's the only future Logos has beyond selling me a few more books, here and there.
Don Awalt said:Those users also hear "Don't upgrade, we'll work with the new users with our new product, when it catches up to what you had then jump on". Is that a good way to treat the loyal customers that bought product and resources in the past?
I don't hear anyone saying that. Logos4 is here now. It's a bit unfinished but it's here.And long-time and new users alike are making suggestions on this forum and we're being heard all the way up to the company CEO.
And while L4 is finishing up a few things you can still use L3 and L4 at the same time! That's unprecedented! And that's a huge help to us 'old timers' who have learned to lean on a few things that L4 doesn't do yet. I have L3 open right now, in fact, checking a note file that I hope will be imported into L4 in the near future. But I don't use L3 for anything else right now, and I don't miss it a bit.
I'm not sure where all this is coming from Dan, but it seems out of touch with my experience with Logos both over the years, and in the last few weeks and months. I have higher confidence and trust on Logos as a company than with any other software I own. My experience in the last weeks with L4 has only served to boost that confidence.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Hi Dan
Thanks for the long email. My apologies for writing an awkward sentence. What I meant to say is that there have been no mass emailing, no intentional or frequent emailings nor information about how different L4 would be. It would be strange for so much surprise if there had been mass emailing, frequent and intentional information that L4 was a radical departure from L3. This was in response to Thomas Black who wrote that there had been and then to Chris who wrote a long email defending the statement with quotes that came out after the release of L4. Sorry for the confusion in my sentence. I wrote it quickly just before leaving on a trip to console my sister who lost her one year old to H1N1 and before I left, I reread the sentence and just new I had written it poorly, but had no time to correct it.
On my part, Dan, I hope what I have been writing in various posts has come across as constructive criticism and not as a whine. The only beef so to speak I have had is that I destroyed my laptop on the first day L4 was released because I was caught off guard with a huge download that was too much for my computer. If I had had better warning or instruction prior, I would have waited.
I have observed you folk at Logos make changes on the website due to constructive criticism offered here on the forum and I highly applaud you for it. I understand what is going on now.
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As with just about any topic/argument the reaility (truth) is often found somewhere BETWEEN the 2 points... [:D]
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I've been trying to understand where you are coming from but I really don't. I have been using Logos since it came on a few 3 1/2 inch disks. The program has always evolved for the better. The company has always thrown in freebies along the way. Some things have gone by the wayside due to copyright permissions. I have items that I currently can't access in Logos 4...so what? I can still read them in the previous version. No one twisted my arm or threatened me to upgrade. Logos has always provided excellent customer support and assistance. In my opinion, they are one of the best software companies I have dealt with (which have been many).
I think what disturbs me more is the attitude underlying the post. Maybe I am misreading it but I doesn't seem particularly wholesome or building up to me -- the one listening. If you have a concern -- express it. But express it in a way that honors the living book that you and the software company are both dedicated to.
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JohnBass said:
I've been trying to understand where you are coming from but I really don't.
JohnBass said:If you have a concern -- express it.
Hi John
I am not really sure who your post was directed to. And I am not sure if I will get another chance to respond over the next two days as I will be away at a funeral. But for my part, if you look at the posts I have written, you will find that I have praised Logos a lot and I am happy with Logos. I have taken time to write constructive criticism because I do hope to see Logos continue to succeed. I will not hide any annoyance that my computer was destroyed because with the download of L4 I was not given enough instruction to understand what was about to happen. I think perhaps you are misreading. I also think that not all posts are meant to build everyone up, nor is directed to every reader. No one twisted my arm or threatened me to upgrade either. I think you may not be understanding the underlying points people are making with their posts. I agree, by the way, with your opinion, that Logos is one of the best, if not the best software company I have dealt with. That is why I have had such a heavy investment with them.
In Christ,
Mark
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DanPritchett said:MarkSwaim said:
It has taken many by surprise which is strange when considering that all L3 users were mass emailed,
Mark, I need your help! Please forward me a copy of the email you are referring to so I can stop the madness before it spreads. Thanks!
I have been, for the most part, quietly stalking the forums and reading almost all the posts. I am continually amazed at the abuse the "marketing" department is taking. We are criticized for a lot of things like "lies, deceit, misinformation, stealing, mass emails, deception..." and I am seeing all the people who claim to know better than everyone here at Logos, and have more experience and brilliance in marketing and business than apparently everyone at Logos has, and quite frankly I am trying hard not to take it personally as the VP of Marketing.
It is very clear that some people are frustrated and confused, and it is very clear that there is no single page on the website that has 100% of all of the answers to 100% of all of the questions that 100% of all of the world may ever have related to Logos, Logos 3, Logos 4, upgrades, Mac, new product, differences, and 1,000 other things. Obviously a website has more than one page, and there are more ways to communicate to people than having one web page that is so massively long that it would take you a month to read it all and wouldn't really be what anyone but a very small handful of people would actually want. Truth be told the majority of our customers trust us to take care of them and they buy without any documentation at all and are very happy. You may have even seen the comments from one customer on the blog who wrote:
"I'm somewhat surprised by the criticism here. The first thing I did when I heard the news was click the upgrade button - a no-brainer for me. The vast majority of other companies charge huge amounts of money for upgrades. A few dollars for totally new software is terrific value, particularly when you also get long-awaited resources (such as the reverse-interlinears in most major versions).
The upgrade does look fantastic, I'm sure there'll be teething problems, but after using Logos for more than 10 years I trust that the company will put any problems which may exist right.
While I'm waiting for the download, I'm going to order an iPhone so I can have my library in my pocket...
PS for Bob/Dale - I do have some sympathy with the nay-sayers, however. This upgrade came as a surprise - even to your sales team I rang first thing this morning! And there isn't much info available, and of course no public betas. Just as one example of the lack of info, I've just spend several hundred dollars on the Portfolio edition, but I don't actually know what I've bought because it's not in the product comparisons. I've paid the money because I trust you - but users with less 'history' with Logos will have less trust, and be more suspicious of the lack of detailed information.
I don't have time to address all the criticisms and accusations (I am busy trying to get ready for the big email/launch) but I did want to point out one simple thing that should help everyone understand what is going on: We haven't launched the product in mass email—as is being claimed. If we did, I need to find the person that did it and fire them... 'cause it sure wasn't ready to be emailed.
I personally send 100% of all the mass email "Logos NewsWires", and I have actually not mass-emailed NewsWire with any information related to Logos 4 at all. If you can show me the mass email to all Logos 3 users that you are referring to, that would help me track down the culprit here that snuck into my office and figured out how to create and send a NewsWire so I can take appropriate measures. If not, please help us by encouraging others to not throw around accusations of fraud, deceit, stupidity, and actions that have not taken place or even been attempted. That would help us be in a better mood as we try to serve the very people who are sapping some of our joy.
The fact that we have not mass emailed NewsWire should be a clue as to the state of preparedness we are in. For good or bad, the awareness that Logos 4 has already gained, is due in large part to social media and early adopter excitement, yes, and our blog, homepage... But we can't pretend we aren't shipping when we are, just because all the upgrade info is not 100% clear. The way social media works today, and the way everyone is connected more instantly than ever before is largely responsible for the amazing response we have already seen to this new product.
The fact that Logos 4 is a new platform and that "upgrade" and "crossgrade" are very small words that need to convey a wealth of information and can't easily do it, and a host of other confusing issues that you can't even begin to imagine, all contribute to the reasoning behind why we have not emailed everyone yet. We are not ready to.
I know that not having all the facts can be frustrating, and I encourage everyone to have patience. Remember, this is all 100% optional. There seems to be a lot of frustration about a completely optional purchase. There is nothing wrong with not buying. There is nothing wrong with waiting. There is nothing wrong with Logos 3. We are offering a new product with new collections and some amazing deals on new books. If you want them, please feel free to get them. If not, don't. Why would anyone spend so much time being upset about something they don't want? If someone is confused they should ask a question or wait for more information. Jumping to conclusions and assuming they were stabbed in the back last week and they just forgot to die until now, doesn't make sense.
It is also important to remember that the main frustration is from existing users, and that the new Logos 4 users (for PC... because the Mac Alpha is "yikes!")
...) are deliriously happy. They are new, and the vast majority are already off and running and have no questions (other than the random why it takes so long to index). We love our existing users and always take care of them. Here's the challenge though. We can't release Logos 4 and not expect the existing users to be curious/want to upgrade/want questions answered.The new Logos 4 is the flagship product of our company. We stay in business partly by selling new packages. So as I am sure all the business experts will understand that it is a simple matter of "Logos 4 is our new product, welcome to our website, would you like to purchase Logos 4? YES! That looks AWESOME!"
In order to continue staying in business, we need to sell base packages to new customers. We also need to make sure our existing customers are well taken care of. We wouldn't want to say "Here is Logos 4 for all the new customers, but you old customers who have been with us for 15 years just have to wait for an upgrade until we imagine what 100% of all your issues, questions, complaints, frustrations... will be before we even let the first one of you get into the new product" That would be cruel and unusual punishment, and a horrible way to treat our faithful customers of so many years. We hoped by allowing our faithful customers the same opportunity to check out this brand new product at the same time and trust us, as they have in the past, that we always have and always will take care of them, we would be in a good position. If there were customers that did not trust us, or needed to read a manual or rulebook before parting with their hard-earned money on one of the best deals they may ever see on our most incredible product ever, that's fine too. They could wait a few weeks more and sit on the sidelines until they were given enough information to make an informed decision.
Sorry for the rambling message, and I am sure it still doesn't answer all your questions, but I have been working almost 18 hours a day to serve our customers, and it is Saturday after all... so I need to get out of here and get some dinner...
The short version is this: Please have patience with us, we are not perfect, we cannot possibly address every individual's personal preferences and styles for information and communication, but we are trying very hard to prepare for the big launch where we begin to communicate with our customers through mass email, direct mail, print ads in other publications, and more. We have done nothing like that yet, and hope by the time we do we will be well prepared to answer all the upgrade questions.
Dan! *smile* Peace and Joy in the Lord to you! And! Your Logos Compatriots!
I have often prayed for Logos Bible Software to succeed. I have - and will again - even now(!) - now, because I feel your hurt. You folks made a decision to "GO"! Some said L4 was not ready for "GO" - but you felt it was necessary and that it was "time."
We - customers and friends of Logos - need to respect that! There were many reasons, I'm sure, for that decision. Personally, I think it was a good decision. For current Logos users. And! For new customers.
We current users also urgently need new customers of Logos, not just to ensure our future libraries - but also to maximise Logos' and our benefits from the Logos Bible Software that is a great force for God's Good in this troubled and festering world.
I, too, do not understand the 'carping' and the griping. First, because what some are saying is not true. But, especially, where is the Christian compassion and non-judgementalism?
I've been your customer since the early 90's - 3.5 floppy disk time! *smile* So glad to move up now to "Portfolio"! Thank you, muchly!
Dan, take courage and comfort. I know some of these hasty and intemperate and thoughtless words have hurt you and your team and that you feel the pain and might tend toward bitterness. But, indeed, take courage and comfort. There is a vast Logos Community throughout the world that is truly appreciative and thanks God for you all!
Yours in Christ, ......... Mel
P.S. Also, thank you for the Lectionaries! Am heading for Worship with my own Christian Community within the next hour, and have already read the Lectionary readings for the day several times. That really enhances my Worship Time in Divine Service! Thanx! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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MarkSwaim said:
I will not hide any annoyance that my computer was destroyed because with the download of L4 I was not given enough instruction to understand what was about to happen.
Did a fire start and melt it?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
Did a fire start and melt it?
[:)]
! think I ran out of space and that caused my notebooks to go into a strange hibernation mode to which it does not come out. That is the simple way of putting it. I will be able to reformat once I clean up my stuff on it...but it sometimes takes time because of this hibernation thing.
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Ah....got it...
thanks for explaining...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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"Sorry for the rambling message, and I am sure it still doesn't answer
all your questions, but I have been working almost 18 hours a day to
serve our customers..."Dan, thanks for sharing your heart...I liked the part about quietly stalking the blogs. All of us involved in leadership understand how difficult it is to take people to the next level not only in organizations, but personal growth and expansion. It is a good work that you and Bob have undertaken. In faith I declare that the timing was perfect, the product is perfect, the Logos team is perfect.
I believe you heard from God, and are walking out the vision, having made it plain- and are running with it...The details are details. The scheduled add-ons, upgrades, improvements, adjustments, and patches will take care of the details.
Blog Arrogance is an amazing phenomenon. It is an enigma of the unredeemed parts of our Christian hearts. Trust is the main thing. The great majority of current users trust Logos to be an organization of mature Believers with great integrity, skill, passion, and commitment. They are true believers and raving fans.
When we are face-to-face with people who are militant in their own agenda of self-interest we handle it with poise and dignity, keeping private what needs to be so. But in this digital format, the lack of discretion and restraint can wound, sometimes unintentionally. Where we have authority we can dismiss issues or people, and choose to not to engage...but the phenomenon of all things published--whether good and pure and lovely-or not, is not always helpful to all, and damaging to some. We all understand the feelings when our ministries are attacked, and the tendency to personalize it... It comes with the territory. We pray that in the fatigue of this season you keep your focus on the vision and are blessed in the progressive joy of doing great exploits.
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BrianBlanchard said:
When we are face-to-face with people who are militant in their own agenda of self-interest we handle it with poise and dignity, keeping private what needs to be so. But in this digital format, the lack of discretion and restraint can wound, sometimes unintentionally. Where we have authority we can dismiss issues or people, and choose to not to engage...but the phenomenon of all things published--whether good and pure and lovely-or not, is not always helpful to all, and damaging to some. We all understand the feelings when our ministries are attacked, and the tendency to personalize it... It comes with the territory.
Brian,
Well said...
I, for one am guilty of this more than a few times on these forums and other "digital places"....It's a tough thing to deal with; and I'm in need of God's grace on this every day.
bob
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Thanks Chris for answering Marks question about my source. I might have added a few other quotes, - including a few from the beta group which I don't feel like hunting down right now.
It's Sunday afternoon, and I've already preached three times and have a fourth tonight.
Day of rest? Nah.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
RossStrader said:
Dan, well done. That was very good.
I think I'm making a "Dan Pritchett is my homeboy" t-shirt... anyone want to order one?
I'll buy.
DanPritchett said:as we try to serve the very people who are sapping some of our joy
I'm praying for everyone at Logos today to remember Christ, and find joy in the journey.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Philip Spitzer said:KevinJones said:
Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies. I am having a hard time swallowing this since I purchased the crossgrade, I previously had the harmonies, and they are not listed as new resources on the product comparison page (implying they are already baked into the system or provided as resources).
The Harmony's should absolutely be included in the minimal CrossGrade. If they are not, then the website needs to be changed immediately and those who purchased the crossgrade so far should be given a free license to these things. This is from http://www.logos.com/minimalcrossgrade
The "Minimal Crossgrade" web page has been significantly extended since the last time I saw it (when it did not mention Harmonies at all). I don't believe that the harmonies it mentions are actually included in the set of resources unlocked by the Minimal Crossgrade. I don't know if this is an error in the webpage, or an error in the internal definition of what the minimal crossgrade collection actually contains.
Nevertheless, since they are explicitly listed as part of the collection on logos.com, it seems fair that you should have them; I have unlocked the six Parallel Passages & Harmonies on your account. The next time you start Logos 4 (or if you type "update now" into the command bar), it should start downloading these missing books.
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Bradley Grainger said:
I have unlocked the six Parallel Passages & Harmonies on your account. The next time you start Logos 4 (or if you type "update now" into the command bar), it should start downloading these missing books.
Once again showing the class that Logos and it's employees possess.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Bradley Grainger said:
Nevertheless, since they are explicitly listed as part of the collection on logos.com, it seems fair that you should have them; I have unlocked the six Parallel Passages & Harmonies on your account. The next time you start Logos 4 (or if you type "update now" into the command bar), it should start downloading these missing books.
Sorry if my post came across too direct. This seems very fair of you. You have been doing a stellar job and I have always appreciated your attitude and assistance. Thanks!
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Thanks Bradley. I appreciate your help and the help of everyone else.
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Bradley, I'm in the exact same situation as KevinJones -- I purchased the Crossgrade and didn't get the parallel resources / harmonies, even though it's listed on the webpage as part of the crossgrade. Is there something you can do about this?
Thanks,
John
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JohnFanous said:
the parallel resources / harmonies
I have Platinum. Where should this resource be located in L4? I cannot find it.
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Dan Pritchett said:
Sorry for the rambling message, and I am sure it still doesn't answer all your questions, but I have been working almost 18 hours a day to serve our customers, and it is Saturday after all... so I need to get out of here and get some dinner...
I am appalled by the messages posted on this forum. Even though I have only exchanged a few e-mails with Dan and Logos, I learned one thing about him and this company: You are AWESOME! I have rarely come across a company with such excellent customer support. I have never been in a situation where Logos did not understand my situation and try to help as much as they could. In the end, every single issue that I had got resolved. And I am sorry that I am pretty impatient with people who are so impatient that they cannot wait a few days to get things resolved or a few weeks to get additional features added. The guys at Logos must be swamped with e-mails, phone calls, .... Just give them a break and wait for a few days.
Dan, you are a great team! Press on! Don't get frustrated by a few inappropriate messages on this forum. You have a large and faithful customer base.
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ArminEberlein said:
I am appalled by the messages posted on this forum. Even though I have only exchanged a few e-mails with Dan and Logos, I learned one thing about him and this company: You are AWESOME! I have rarely come across a company with such excellent customer support.
I like you Armin! You said what I keep thinking, but which some weird sense of propriety prevents me from saying with both barrels so to speak.
Me too!ArminEberlein said:Dan, you are a great team! Press on! Don't get frustrated by a few inappropriate messages on this forum. You have a large and faithful customer base.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Just on the topic of the original topic, and having gotten a bit lost in this thread- I seem to be lacking the harmonies mentioned in the training videos as well. I did a minimal upgrade from Scholars, and from what I read I'm supposed to have them.
I fired off an email to support with the details of my confusion, but... I can wait
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KevinJones said:
This is probably the worst software transition I've ever been involved in.
Give thanks to God; I've been in several that were worse. Including one in which management demanded that we implement when we were about 6 months from ready. We spent the next six months proving that we were right. [:(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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