Sermon File Addin
Will we ever see any form of the Sermon File Addin for Logos 4?
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It was not in the beta cycle that just went RC last week. We will have to see what is included in the next beta.
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Danny Baskin said:
Will we ever see any form of the Sermon File Addin for Logos 4?
Bob said that we should when he posted in March earlier this year - http://community.logos.com/forums/p/46104/346381.aspx#346381
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I remember Bob's post. I suppose I'm just being impatient.
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I will be surprised if it is in the next beta cycle, but I do expect it to be in the following beta cycle.
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Many people including myself paid for this (Sermon File Addin), and due to that, it should one of the top priorities. (It's as if you bought a commentary and now you can't use it at all). It would be nice if there was some sort of partial refund.
Before someone says that I can use it on L3 (I know that) I don't want to use L3, that's why I paid to upgrade to L4 (not just the free engine). This needed to be ready when L4 came out or soon after. But it's been delay after delay after delay.
I know that there are a lot of technicalities to it; far beyond my computer skills and I really appreciate Logos for all they do and the products it produces, but their needs to be a full commitment to finish this product that they sold and honor the $ they received from many of us.
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Echo everything David said. The problem is not our impatience - but Logos' priorities. Still waiting.
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David Salazar said:
Before someone says that I can use it on L3 (I know that)
Logos no longer supports L3 so it is no longer valid for them or anyone else to say you can use L3. All of these issues should have been resolved before they stopped supporting L3. This is not the only missing feature that has not been sorted out before support for L3 was stopped.
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David Taylor Jr said:
What exactly is the Sermon File Addin? I was never on L3.
David,
It was an addin product for L3 and allowed the user to create two books. One was a book for sermons and the other for illustrations. It was a package that once you added the sermon or illustrations it put it in a Logos Book that you could use like any other Logos book for searches or whatever. Then you could upload the sermons or illustrations to Logos Sermons. If you click the sermon menu off the main page those are sermons uploaded by the Sermon File Addin. I purchased the product and demanded for about the first year for them to release it to L4, but have since learned to use the Personal Book Builder to accomplish the same thing. I see both sides of the argument as valid. Users are being impatient as they were promised 2nd Quarter then 3rd, then the next year and then the next year.. etc.. and still waiting. Frankly the product for L3 is no where near the advances in L4 so I understand Logos having a hard time getting it back. PBB is the new thing and as far as I am concerned I would rather they spend time making PBB better than worrying about the SFA.
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Matthew Hamrick said:
I would rather they spend time making PBB better than worrying about the SFA.
[Y]
Bohuslav
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David Taylor Jr said:
What exactly is the Sermon File Addin? I was never on L3.
Matthew Hamrick said:It was an addin product for L3 and allowed the user to create two books. One was a book for sermons and the other for illustrations.
Agree that it was a Logos 3 addin, no debate on that, as to what it is I think that unfortunately the Sermon File Addin has become the primary focus for the general dissatisfaction with Logos 4, the development process and the current level of performance. That we the users perceived that it would be delivered within 12 months and have waited 36 is the stick that we constantly beat Logos with...
Matthew Hamrick said:PBB is the new thing and as far as I am concerned I would rather they spend time making PBB better than worrying about the SFA.
I think that Bob has already hinted at this in other threads on the issue and that Logos would prefer to integrate the Sermon File Addin with the Personal Book Builder the biggest challenge seems to be that the Sermon File Addin collected and stored information that the current Personal Book Builder is not designed to accommodate. I'm sure that there are as many theories about why this is as there are IT people on this forum but the end result is the dilemma for Logos deliver the new Sermon File Addin without the features that some users already have and want to retain or change the core design of the new Personal Book Builder to accomodate these requirements. I have a feeling that the third option, an all new Sermon File Addon that has all of the features from the old one as a separate Logos 4 module, is definitely not going to happen.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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As many developers as there are on this forum, and knowing Bible software often has something to do with 'sermons', it would not have been that troublesome to simply have added some key categorization features to PB when they wrote it. I think this issue is no different than the notes issue and it goes back to whether Logos4 is 'Bible' software or simply just the logo.
I'm amazed as well (not being a pastor) that Logos markets to pastors and seminaries, but simultaneiously thumbs its development nose at their needs. I really don't understand, given the coding isn't that complicated.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
As many developers as there are on this forum, and knowing Bible software often has something to do with 'sermons', it would not have been that troublesome to simply have added some key categorization features to PB when they wrote it. I think this issue is no different than the notes issue and it goes back to whether Logos4 is 'Bible' software or simply just the logo.
I'm amazed as well (not being a pastor) that Logos markets to pastors and seminaries, but simultaneiously thumbs its development nose at their needs. I really don't understand, given the coding isn't that complicated.
Agreed, there are other Bible softwares out there that do not have one bit of a problem with these requests. Cheaper too, but we went with L4 because it is supposed to be the leader, yet, key features are lacking.
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DMB said:
I'm amazed as well (not being a pastor) that Logos markets to pastors and seminaries, but simultaneiously thumbs its development nose at their needs. I really don't understand, given the coding isn't that complicated.
DMB, I'm curious about what needs you're referring too. I am a pastor, and bought the Sermon File Addin for L3. I'd ***LOVE*** to see that functionality in L4 ASAP. However, honestly I don't need it, I've lived long enough now without it that I'll readily use it again if/when it is available but if it never happens, then I'll continue preaching and keeping my notes anyway.
Here's what I need from L4: access to commentaries, research materials, writings, etc that are searchable by scripture verse so that I can gain wisdom from the church's tradition about how to apply the scriptures to my own life and talk about in a way that is relevant, fresh, and exciting for the people I preach to weekly. Does L4 deliver that? YES, in a much easier way for me to handle than going to my vast library of paper-based books (which I rarely even open any more).
I do love the integration between L4 and Proclaim and that has been a real blessing to my ministry, but I don't need it.
A Canadian Anglican Bishop is quoted as saying once, ''When you get down to it, all we need is a bottle of wine, a book and a table, and we are in business.''
I might say I need a bible and a community to meet my needs.
Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but I'd be interested in hearing what needs L4 isn't delivering for people because it does deliver on my needs (maybe not all my wants but certainly all my needs)
Peace & Blessings,
Colin+
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Well, Colin, when I go hiking/camping, I carry a small waist-pack with water, tuna and crackers. And as they say, I'm a happy camper.
I always question other campers why they need so much stuff. I don't. So why should they?
That's why I smile when someone wants (previously existing) software functionality and others say 'I don't need it so don't bother'. Welcome to Christianity.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Writing code is similar to pastoring a church. There are many needs from many voices, and they all want it now. John does not want to see Mary's need implemented as it does not make sense, and Susan feels that John's needs will be a delay in progress on meeting Frank's need.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Have to say, the biggest issue I have with and that many have had in regard with the Sermon File Add-in not being functional in V4 is the fact it was promised and we have passed many estimated dates and still nothing years later. No matter how troubling the code may be, there has been more than sufficient time to.deliver on the promised functionality. Logos had this.on the back burner because they believed that it was a small group who used it and also because some there never liked it anyway.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
Have to say, the biggest issue I have with and that many have had in regard with the Sermon File Add-in not being functional in V4 is the fact it was promised and we have passed many estimated dates and still nothing years later.
Totally agree, I have a feeling that if we had been told that there would be no Sermon File Addin three years ago the complaining would have stopped by now. [:)]
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Lynden Williams said:
Writing code is similar to pastoring a church. There are many needs from many voices, and they all want it now. John does not want to see Mary's need implemented as it does not make sense, and Susan feels that John's needs will be a delay in progress on meeting Frank's need.
I have to disagree. As a former developer and designer, by the time you start writing code, you should have a very very very very good idea on how things will work. It is at the design phase is where you make the decisions.
Because Bob said that they made a decision that they were going to code first and fix the issues later, we now see what happens when the design phase is skipped. You have to go back and spend $$$,$$$.$$ in correcting the product design (just think of sync).
IMHO, the main reason why this function had not been added to as of yet comes from the fact that they had to spend a lot of time and money in reworking a lot of L4. IMHO, we do not have a completed product as of yet because Logos is now reaping what they have sown (and because they are adding additional products - vysro, faithlife, etc...).
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tom collinge said:
IMHO, the main reason why this function had not been added to as of yet comes from the fact that they had to spend a lot of time and money in reworking a lot of L4. IMHO, we do not have a completed product as of yet because Logos is now reaping what they have sown (and because they are adding additional products - vysro, faithlife, etc...).
IMHO, you're right. What I find most distressing is that we DON'T HAVE A COMPLETED PRODUCT. I'm looking forward to the day when I can file my sermons, etc. directly into L4 without first using software that I've had for so long--L3.
It's time for the sermon addin or at least some reasonable estimate as to when we can expect it.
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(emphasis mine)Frank Sauer said:Logos had this.on the back burner because they believed that it was a small group who used it and also because some there never liked it anyway.
This belief of LOGOS' is based on a flawed measuring methodology that relies on users turning on "anonymous statistics" from within their software as well as calling CS when they are unhappy with the feature.
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Honest question from someone who's never used Logos 3: what could Sermon Files do that Personal Books can't?
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mitchellisdumb said:
Honest question from someone who's never used Logos 3: what could Sermon Files do that Personal Books can't?
SFA will automatically create tags for date, location preached, tags, keywords and scripture references, automatically arranging entries in alphabetical or canonical order. Basically, it hugely automated manual tagging, making entries MUCH easier to find. Below is my book of illustrations:
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toughski said:
SFA will automatically create tags for date, location preached, tags, keywords and scripture references, automatically arranging entries in alphabetical or canonical order. Basically, it hugely automated manual tagging, making entries MUCH easier to find. Below is my book of illustrations:
If notes had tagging (better tagging than clippings) and better formatting options, then we would not need a SFA. (We will also need a way to maintain, edit, and run reports on our tagging).
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I see. That does look useful, and I can also see why Logos would want to build this as an extension of current functionality rather than as something totally separate. Here's hoping everyone gets what they want whenever this does come out.
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I find having the indexes available for browsing very helpful as a way to see what topics I've preached on, have all my communion sermons listed together, etc. It's much easier than having to use the basic search for this.
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Some of us bought the addin not that long before L4 was released - which meant we had a product that would no longer work when we upgraded. We were promised that it would work "soon" in L4 - in fact we were led to believe it was less than 12 months away. Clearly if we had used the search function on Logos we have realised that they were referring to the biblical "soon" as in Rev. 22:20. [:P]
On a serious note - a man's word is his bond, that's why many of us pastors are persistent in expecting Logos to deliver on their often stated promise of it is coming "soon".
Darren Middleton
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Darren Middleton said:
We were promised that it would work "soon" in L4
Dear Darren:
"Soon" is almost here.
The latest Beta version (4.6a Beta 2) includes the needed code to produce the very necessary Index that will make (one or many) of your PBB's into a "Sermon File" collection Resource.
[One tester has already suggested that this could be used to make a separate (and searchable) "Bible Study Journal", etc].
After testing it this weekend, it appears to be better than the Libronix 3 Sermon File (The L3 Sermon File had some "unique" -- in a challenging way --editing tools)
This new resulting Sermons File "book" (resource) can be "My Tagged" and therefore put into a searchable collection. That Collection can then be put into a Passage Guide.
I believe that this is what we have been asking for since the Nov 2009 release of Logos 4.
Like I say, I have only tested this for a few days but I am very, very, very, etc pleased.
I just do not know how many sermons to go to the work of entering, (in case there are final changes to the code.)
Al the best.
Regards, SteveF
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Hi Philana
Philana Crouch said:Does it also index speaker or location?
From the release notes:
- Personal Books
- Implemented syntax for Sermons and Illustrations. When this syntax is added, the compiler will automatically generate indices at the end of the book by date, topic, passage, and tags.
- Fields are added via a table format, where the top-left cell contains ‘Sermon File Type’.
- The metadata should be added after the title of the relevant sermon or illustration.
- Except for the ‘Sermon File Type’ which is required for the first row, the other metadata lines can be added as desired in any order.
- The field types are:
- Sermon File Type: ‘Sermon’ or ‘Illustration’ (Note: the compiler will only recognize one type, the type in the first table, per book.)
- Passages: Standard Bible reference formats. Accepts multiple values separated by a semicolon.
- Topics: Accepts multiple values separated by a semicolon. (Topics for sermons should show up in the ‘Topics’ section of the Passage Guide. Topics for Illustrations should show up in the ‘Illustrations’ section of the Passage Guide.)
- Tags: Accepts multiple values separated by a semicolon.
- Speaker: Accepts multiple values separated by a semicolon.
- Venue: Accepts multiple values separated by a semicolon.
- Date: Accepts multiple values separated by a semicolon. (The compiler will attempt to parse the date.)
- Implemented syntax for Sermons and Illustrations. When this syntax is added, the compiler will automatically generate indices at the end of the book by date, topic, passage, and tags.
Example:
Sermon File Type Sermon Passages Gen 1:1; John 3:16 Topics Creation; Love Tags Examples; Testing Speaker John G. Smith Venue There Date September 28, 2000 0 - Personal Books
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Philana Crouch said:
Does it also index speaker or location?
Philana, Graham has shown you that both the "speaker" and "location" (field) material is collected
--and as such it is visible near the beginning of each sermon (depending on which of the first few lines your "syntax code" is located.)
BUT it appears that as of right now, the speaker and venue are NOT "indexed".
There was another post about "speaker & location" fields in the "Beta" Forum but I do not believe that they had any further information or suggestions.
Regards, SteveF
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So is there a release date yet? Any updates on this? Thanks.
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Darren Middleton said:
So is there a release date yet? Any updates on this? Thanks.
It's still in beta, which you are more than welcome to try… make sure you are aware of the dangers of beta testing first though. Logos doesn't really give out "release dates" for software, but if you follow the beta builds, you can gain some sort of idea when it may come out. There will be a number of beta builds. As Logos believes that things are getting close, the beta builds will be designated as a "release candidate" (i.e. RC1). Sometimes a beta will go through several RC's, other times it is just one.
The current beta build is 4.6a, B4.
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alabama24 said:Darren Middleton said:
So is there a release date yet? Any updates on this? Thanks.
It's still in beta, which you are more than welcome to try… make sure you are aware of the dangers of beta testing first though. Logos doesn't really give out "release dates" for software, but if you follow the beta builds, you can gain some sort of idea when it may come out. There will be a number of beta builds. As Logos believes that things are getting close, the beta builds will be designated as a "release candidate" (i.e. RC1). Sometimes a beta will go through several RC's, other times it is just one.
The current beta build is 4.6a, B4.
To add to what alabama said the current 4.6a beta seems to be stable for most. That does not eliminate the risks of a beta version, but I would call the risk minimal at this point in the cycle
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Thanks brothers.
Where would I find the beta version?
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Darren Middleton said:
Where would I find the beta version?
Read this thread first. It will provide links. If you have more questions, visit the beta forum.
BETA FORUM: http://community.logos.com/forums/106.aspx
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Darren Middleton said:
So is there a release date yet? Any updates on this? Thanks.
Another question, is this a temporary thing or will this be what Sermon File Addin WILL ultimately be?
If that's what it is going to be, I wonder will there be some kind of credit or refund, because now it is available to all (with certain base packages) as PBB. I don't mind so much it being free in future versions, but what would be disappointing is that those that paid didn't really get to use the paid product when L4 came out soon afterwards (which didn't support it).
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David Salazar said:
Another question, is this a temporary thing or will this be what Sermon File Addin WILL ultimately be?
There is no reason to believe it will ultimately be something else as Logos originally thought that PB without special features would be sufficient. But I think this was a trick question ... something about equal pay to the workers regardless of when they started work[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Like you, I'm not a programer. But I gotta ask -- they had sermon indexer working with Logos 3. How hard can it be to get it working with Logos 4?
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David Krueger said:
Like you, I'm not a programer. But I gotta ask -- they had sermon indexer working with Logos 3. How hard can it be to get it working with Logos 4?
They have added these features into the Personal Book tool. It's currently in beta testing. But it does build indexes. One of the benefits is you can create multiple sermon books. This could include books of sermons or books of illustrations by friends and not just your own. The sermon file did not allow the creation of multiple books.
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David Krueger said:
Like you, I'm not a programer. But I gotta ask -- they had sermon indexer working with Logos 3. How hard can it be to get it working with Logos 4?
The issue was not about the indexer working. L4 has a brand new UI, and it was the UI that was causing the issue (how to get the sermons into L4).
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David Krueger said:
How hard can it be to get it working with Logos 4?
As hard or harder than it was to get working in Logos 3 - the basic file structure has changed, the user interface has changed, the need to sync across platforms has been added .. (I am a programmer).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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OK, Now we are getting somewhere with the aspects of what I missed in the Sermon File Addin for Logos 4 and Logos 5! I have copied and pasted a sample sermon file from this link: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/57323.aspx and then copied and pasted the syntax table format into my copy of Word and saved it as .docx Word format. Then I went on and created a Personal book the normal way. I end up with a personal book that has a number of my sermon outlines in it and at the end of the book there is an index that sorts things (i.e. shows every sermon that dealt with a certain bible passage, sorts sermons by date preached, location preached, topic covered and misc tags assigned.) It also turned all Scripture references in the sermon notes to hotlinks, nice touch.
Here are my questions:
1. Is it a good practice to import all of my sermons into one constantly re-complied personal book? They each start as different Word documents filed separately on my computer. It seems they would all need to be imported into one personal book called "My Sermons" so that I can see them all together and see the index sort details at the end of the book that shows all my sermons together by location preached etc. Are there disadvantages to how my sermons would integrate into Logos though by having them all in one document?
-A related question...should I compile my sermon illustrations into the same PBB as the above Sermon book or a separate one? Would it be better to have my index show for my sermons and my illustrations all in one place?
-A related question, can these personal book files have hundreds of Word documents compiled together as my sermon library grows? Would this be practical having to re-compile my book each week after my newest sermon outlines were added? How long would this compilation of hundreds of Word documents take? What if it ever got corrupted or I switched computers and I had to pull hundreds of Word documents back into a personal book again? BTW, I guess the bottom line is that I am looking more for a way to sort my sermons by different filters than I am to have them as a personal book in Logos. Maybe I should be using some 3rd party Software instead of Logos? Like: http://www.sermonbase.com/sermon-software/ -But it does not look like it sorts by multiple topic well and I am not sure I trust it to be around long-term even though it does run on Mac and Windows...
2. Is it wise to use the "topics" field for major topics covered in a sermon and the "tag" field for minor topics that might be referenced?
3. Should I list every Scripture referenced under the Scripture section and not just the key passage being exegeted? It seems like this would be good, although it might make it hard to see which passages I have formally preached through and which passages I have just touched upon while preaching topically.
4. I wish this table could be at the end of the document instead of the beginning. When I go to print my personal preaching copy of the notes, I will now always have to temp cut out all this junk at the beginning of my sermon notes!
5. It seems that the title must be in the right font or it is not registered.
6. Biggest question! Where is my personal PBB file stored on my Mac for Logos 5? I opened the hidden (Mountain Lion) folder on my mac (by opening finder, then clicking on "Go" key while holding the "opt" key and the hidden "Library" folder can then be opened on my mac...Under "Application Support" folder there is a folder called "Logos 4" and in that folder there are other folders. If I drill down into the "Documents" folder there is a folder called "Personal Books". In that folder are two files (even though I have all sorts of separate Personal books compiled) called: "PersonalBookManager.db" and "PersonalBookManager.db-journal". I do not see my list of complied books here if I want to share one of them with my father or Logos on my other computer. If I drill down in the Logos 4/Data folder, there are some files there: "index.dcm", -14kb size "index.fld" -2kb size, "index.idx" -48.8MB size, "index.lck" -0kb size, "index.lxn" -14.4 kb, "index.met" -36bites size, "LibraryIndex.db" -127kb size and "LibraryIndex.db-journal" -0kb size. I do not see any of my complied book names anywhere separated out. I cannot make sense of any of these files, even if I wanted to overwrite and restore all my books in one lump to another computer. This site link: http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers talks about restoring your full Logos instillation to another computer. It looks like option two is referring to this same Logos 4 folder I have found, but the instructions are for Windows and not Mac and I am afraid to try over-writing a mac "library" folder like this unless I know that will work (option 2 at above link.)
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I got one of my own questions answered...how to backup/restore between machines my personal books:
I have figured out how to get my time-intensive compiled PBB books backed up (Mac 10.8.2) and copied over and recognized in Logos on my second mac following this procedure...they did not make it easy at Logos:copy lbspbb files from Resource folder on one mac to the other mac, ... These files are in the mac hidden folder Library under application support/Logos 4/ Data/ Resource Manager/ Resources and end with "lbspbb" -search to only show this type to get personal books to copy into other machine to the same folder. (The hidden Library folder in 10.8 is shown by opening finder and clicking on "go" and then holding the "opt" key to show the hidden system folder.)
I then had trouble making the new computer see the files. Tech support level two told me how to force it to rebuild the default storage location index by closing Logos and then going to this folder: Library under application support/Logos 4/ Data/4ai5atbt.90.u/Resource Manager/
Here there is a file called "ResourceManager.db" which they had me delete. This forced the Logos program to rebuild its default resource database and my new .bspbb personal books all showed up when I next opened Logos! )
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