Logos Is Too Expensive
Comments
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DMB said:
When someone goes to Walmart and finds some high prices (now and then), everyones' ears listen up; don't want to pay too much!
Logos isn't Wallmart, and the most expensive products are nothing analogous to Wallmart products.
DMB said:Who's kidding here. Logos has the reputation. Go to church and try to get someone to spend hundreds of dollars on mostly public domain or older works. Good luck on that.
It has nothing to do with reputation, and the vast majority of Logos publications (especially the most expensive items), are not public domain or older work. They are cutting edge professional commentary which are typically only affordable in their original print editions, by universities and seminary libraries, because they typically weigh in at over US$100 per volume. Through Logos, we can typically pick them up at less than 25% of that price.
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Jonathan Burke said:
It has nothing to do with reputation, and the vast majority of Logos publications (especially the most expensive items), are not public domain or older work. They are cutting edge professional commentary which are typically only affordable in their original print editions, by universities and seminary libraries, because they typically weigh in at over US$100 per volume. Through Logos, we can typically pick them up at less than 25% of that price.
There is a volume in Logos Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch that I don't much agree with, but it sells for $170 separately. It also comes in a bundle of 10 works (Including works by such important scholars as Clines, Whybry, Coats and Rentdorff) for $300. Amazon sell this one book for $170. I got them on prepub for $110. Are you saying that is too expensive? I think Jonathan and I agree here.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
The whole congregation of the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness
Yes George. I think if I recall your own words, Egypt would be Logos 3 right? [;)]
I am a 10+ year customer of Logos who has readily praised the good on many occasions. I have also, without being personal or vicious, respectfully highlighted and documented issues we have had for Logos 4 Mac. The Logos Mac forum has plenty of traffic which speaks for itself.
So I don't retract anything, nor do I believe it is in the category of complaining. It can be, in my view, a lot of money to spend particularly if you are not informed about the bugs and regressions we have experienced on the Mac product on a regular basis.
History is what it is. I have hope and believe that someone will fix it eventually, but in humility I assert we aren't there yet.
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Oh Jonathan ... not to worry. Take out the Jag for a spin and feast on my solid 5-figures investment in Logos. 'Pricey' is not my problem. I'm just not so naive to think 'I'm saving money!'
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Oh Jonathan ... not to worry. Take out the Jag for a spin and feast on my solid 5-figures investment in Logos. 'Pricey' is not my problem. I'm just not so naive to think 'I'm saving money!'
If you're not saving money, you're doing it wrong. I have spent over US$20,000 on Logos, and I have saved at least three times that amount.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Yes George. I think if I recall your own words, Egypt would be Logos 3 right?
No, I was really thinking of print works or other computer programs.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
No, I was really thinking of print works or other computer programs.
My mistake then! [:$]
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Jonathan Burke said:
If you're not saving money, you're doing it wrong. I have spent over US$20,000 on Logos, and I have saved at least three times that amount.
You've spent more than I. I'm at just under $18,000, but that doesn't include what I bought before Dec, 2003 (and I have no idea how much that might be).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Jack Caviness said:
I am biased against people who have never run a business yet who feel qualified to lecture successful business people as to how they should conduct business. Most people have no concept of what it takes to build a successful business, yet they constantly lecture other as to how it should be done. My wife and I said more that one that if we had known ahead of time what it was going to cost, we would never have joined our son in his new business venture. Ten years later, I am pleased we were ignorant enough to jump into the waters.
I hate to burst your bubble there buddy, but I actually do run my own business. http://novelstudies.org
As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am not interested in hearing about the 'Value' I would be getting for my money, I was making the point that Logos is too expensive in general. (I said Logos was the best on the market in the very first sentence of my very first post) For all I care Logos could wake me up every morning with a cup of coffee and a plate of bacon and it would still be too expensive ... well, maybe if could get me bacon I would buy it.
You might also note that our website charges well below average prices for our products .... because we like to give people a fair deal.
That being said, the reason why I never responded to your previous comment was because I didn't think you comments were relevant. (Sorry) I don't have to run a business to make a suggestion on how I believe a business should be run. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has made a suggestion to a business.
I feel I should also mention that I am a writer, and had two of my books recently self-published on Lulu for $5 each (Well below average) even though they can still buy them as a hard-copy at a higher cost, because I want people to hear the Gospel not to make more money. http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?type=&keyWords=joel+michel+reed&sitesearch=lulu.com&q=&x=0&y=0
[quote]
Ok; you're way off base. Logos charges an entirely reasonable sum for the high quality product they produce, which simply does not exist elsewhere on the market. Sure you can find a few of the books available free online, but that's not what Logos is charging money for. They are charging money for the extremely highly developed information architecture of their product which makes it literally unique in the market. That's what I want; I don't want to fool around with websites.0 -
Jonathan ... I think you just nailed the point.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I tried to respond to a few of the comments, but I think Logos decided not to post my last reply.
Hmm ... seems a bit odd to me ... [:#]0 -
Joel Reed said:
I tried to respond to a few of the comments, but I think Logos decided not to post my last reply.
Hmm ... seems a bit odd to me ...
The forum software sometimes has a hiccup. Try your posts again.
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Due to moving back from overseas, I had to leave my print library of 800 volumes behind last year. I started buying Logos seven years ago. I now have a library that is easily four times bigger and better for probably less that half of what I paid for my print library. That value is without updating prices to current prices of books. It is possible to get a decent library for not much money if you buy with discipline. Right now I am teaching Church History and books in the packages are proving to be a big help. I probably need more self-discipline in the books I buy from Logos than I have shown recently.
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Joel Reed said:
I hate to burst your bubble there buddy, but I actually do run my own business. http://novelstudies.org
You might also note that our website charges well below average prices for our products .... because we like to give people a fair deal.It appears that you run your "business" more as a hobby than as an actual business. I would remind you that Logos is a true business with employees and an overhead which requires them to make a profit. It is not a hobby.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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"I don't purchase devotional literature and pastoral commentaries from
Logos, I typically focus on the scholarly commentary and academic
titles, print editions of which typically cost well over US$100 each.
Maybe that's why I find Logos consistently cheap; not just affordable,
but actually cheap."Ditto. I don't even own a package. I DO own Context of Scripture, JPS Torah Commentary, ANET, Anchor Bible Dictionary, Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, etc. All of these I got a great deal on, less than or equal to paper BUT they take up no space (important in my Brooklyn apt) and have much greater functionality than some illegal pdf file, which I am willing to pay for.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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How can you say I run my "business" as a hobby when you have no idea what my income or costs actually are.George Somsel said:Joel Reed said:I hate to burst your bubble there buddy, but I actually do run my own business. http://novelstudies.org
You might also note that our website charges well below average prices for our products .... because we like to give people a fair deal.It appears that you run your "business" more as a hobby than as an actual business. I would remind you that Logos is a true business with employees and an overhead which requires them to make a profit. It is not a hobby.
That was an incredibly rude and condescending comment if I ever heard one, and I would appreciate it if you put a bit of thought into your responses before you open your mouth. I happen to be very proud of my business, regardless of how you feel it should be classified.0 -
Joel Reed said:
I happen to be very proud of my business, regardless of how you feel it should be classified.
Hobby
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Jerk
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George Somsel said:Joel Reed said:
I happen to be very proud of my business, regardless of how you feel it should be classified.
Hobby
Even Logos was once a part time thing by a couple of Microsoft employees.
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What a "Christian attitude", George. Martin.George Somsel said:
HobbyJoel Reed said:I happen to be very proud of my business, regardless of how you feel it should be classified.
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I think we need to distinguish between Logos being expensive and books being expensive. Logos can control the pricing of public domain books which is why we can have such inexpensive community pricing deals. You have to feel bad for newcomers to Logos though because they have to wait for a Christmas sale or other special in order to affordably add those public domain works. Logos doesn't control the pricing of titles such as the JSNT series. Those type of books, which are generally published dissertations, were traditionally only intended to be published in small quantities for research libraries. Those libraries get generous discounts and certainly don't pay full retail thus retail pricing has gone through the roof as costs have gone up. There is much discussion in academic circles about the cost of such books but little can currently be done. In many cases Logos can offer good deals on these books because they are reaching a larger audience. Unfortunately those deals disappear after a title leaves prepub and thus later comers are again penalized.
I must say I really don't like the marketing spin on how much we've saved. You can't say you've spent $20,000 and saved $40,000 unless you have $60,000 to spend on books. Really what it boils down to is that you've spent $20,000 on your library and if someone comes along now they'd never be able to afford to buy-in because the price is beyond anyone's book budget. I think this is what gets people upset. This and that many books are only available bundled with others that people don't want.
My $0.02
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Joel Reed said:
Logos appears to be the best available. That being said it is also the most expensive software available!
Nothing wrong with being the best and the most expensive. [:)]
Andrew Mitchell
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Joel Reed said:
As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am not interested in hearing about the 'Value' I would be getting for my money, I was making the point that Logos is too expensive in general. (I said Logos was the best on the market in the very first sentence of my very first post) For all I care Logos could wake me up every morning with a cup of coffee and a plate of bacon and it would still be too expensive ... well, maybe if could get me bacon I would buy it.
You say that they are too expensive, but they could still possibly be a great value. That doesn't really make sense. If they are too expensive then they are not a good value.
If you want a book that you can get free somewhere else, then you can use the Logos Personal Book Builder feature and put the book into Logos, which will even tag it for you, so that argument is really not valid.
Many of the books that are still under copyright may be expensive due to the publishers' pricing, and not Logos.
Again, everything is not priced to my liking, so I don't buy those products. I wish I could have everything Logos offers, but I can't. Logos is not a missionary organization that gives away software. They are a software company that happens to sell Bible software.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Tom Reynolds said:
I must say I really don't like the marketing spin on how much we've saved. You can't say you've spent $20,000 and saved $40,000 unless you have $60,000 to spend on books.
I don't think it is marketing spin. The books I have purchased through Logos are the kind of books i used to purchase in print, at vastly higher prices. I don't have to spend huge amounts of money on these scholarly works anymore, I save every time I purchase them in Logos instead of purchasing them in print the way I used to.
Additionally, because I am saving so much money through Logos, I can purchase a massively larger number of these books than I was able to when I was limited to purchasing them in print. That's a saving whichever way you look at it.
Tom Reynolds said:Really what it boils down to is that you've spent $20,000 on your library and if someone comes along now they'd never be able to afford to buy-in because the price is beyond anyone's book budget.
I don't think that's true. I quoted the retail price of a JSNTS collection of sixteen books in Logos earlier, and it works out to be 40% less than the price of just six of those books if you were to purchase them in print. That's not the pre-pub price of that collection (the pre-pub price was half as much again), it's the current retail price. And you can even get it on a twelve month purchase plan; US$50 a month.
I seriously doubt that the books Logos sells today are 'beyond anyone's book budget' as you suggest. The company seems to be selling them perfectly well, which means people are buying them.
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Greetings Joel,
I'm not sure I agree with your assesment. Quickverse charges $305 for there base package and around $1600 for the top package. And you are paying for the software. Logos software is free and downloadable and has some resources with it.
Joel Reed said:It is actually quite easy to find most of the books you offer in the software on eBook websites for free, since most of the books you carry are no longer copy-written.
That's not completely correct. The word "most" actually negates this statement. The NIV, NASB, NLT, and NET bibles are still copyrighted, as are many of the commentaries. Many of the Bible Dictionaries and concordances are still copy righted. The Opening Up Commentary series is 30 volumes and at the least $7 a volume which would be roughly 210, that's one third of the entire package. The Bible Expostition is at best $70 and you are already at half of the cost. Collins Thematic Thesaraus is $75. Holman Bible Atlas lists for roughly $30, but can be got for $18. You get the idea and I haven't even touched the surface.
If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, might I suggest e-sword. It's free, but has a suggested donation of $15, I have it on my computer but rarely use it.
In Him,
Jim
Running on ASUS Windows 10 I7 24 gig of ram, 1 Terabyte drive.
Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
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Yesterday, I thought these 2 threads were definitely good. But just 'overnight' this one has become a true 'keeper'. And it IS true; I know very few Christians that don't have 'money'. I guess there are some somewhere. Who knows?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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James Chandler said:
If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, might I suggest e-sword. It's free, but has a suggested donation of $15, I have it on my computer but rarely use it.
In Him,
Jim
I use e-sword often for quick look ups. Plus, they have an active user community who have made a lot of modules from public domain such as the ICC NT, all of Lange's commentary, several of Nicoll's, Bengal, Horae Homiletica, Neighbour, Exell, Coke, Pulpit Commentary, Heinrich Meyer, Carroll, Drummelow, and more. I do not mind using another platform since they are free.
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DMB said:
And it IS true; I know very few Christians that don't have 'money'. I guess there are some somewhere. Who knows?
I have friends who regularly spend on recreational vehicles, holidays, and skis, double the money I typically spend on Logos in a year. Seriously, skis?
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Time to let this thread die!
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