Logos Is Too Expensive
Comments
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What a "Christian attitude", George. Martin.George Somsel said:
HobbyJoel Reed said:I happen to be very proud of my business, regardless of how you feel it should be classified.
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I think we need to distinguish between Logos being expensive and books being expensive. Logos can control the pricing of public domain books which is why we can have such inexpensive community pricing deals. You have to feel bad for newcomers to Logos though because they have to wait for a Christmas sale or other special in order to affordably add those public domain works. Logos doesn't control the pricing of titles such as the JSNT series. Those type of books, which are generally published dissertations, were traditionally only intended to be published in small quantities for research libraries. Those libraries get generous discounts and certainly don't pay full retail thus retail pricing has gone through the roof as costs have gone up. There is much discussion in academic circles about the cost of such books but little can currently be done. In many cases Logos can offer good deals on these books because they are reaching a larger audience. Unfortunately those deals disappear after a title leaves prepub and thus later comers are again penalized.
I must say I really don't like the marketing spin on how much we've saved. You can't say you've spent $20,000 and saved $40,000 unless you have $60,000 to spend on books. Really what it boils down to is that you've spent $20,000 on your library and if someone comes along now they'd never be able to afford to buy-in because the price is beyond anyone's book budget. I think this is what gets people upset. This and that many books are only available bundled with others that people don't want.
My $0.02
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Joel Reed said:
Logos appears to be the best available. That being said it is also the most expensive software available!
Nothing wrong with being the best and the most expensive. [:)]
Andrew Mitchell
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Joel Reed said:
As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am not interested in hearing about the 'Value' I would be getting for my money, I was making the point that Logos is too expensive in general. (I said Logos was the best on the market in the very first sentence of my very first post) For all I care Logos could wake me up every morning with a cup of coffee and a plate of bacon and it would still be too expensive ... well, maybe if could get me bacon I would buy it.
You say that they are too expensive, but they could still possibly be a great value. That doesn't really make sense. If they are too expensive then they are not a good value.
If you want a book that you can get free somewhere else, then you can use the Logos Personal Book Builder feature and put the book into Logos, which will even tag it for you, so that argument is really not valid.
Many of the books that are still under copyright may be expensive due to the publishers' pricing, and not Logos.
Again, everything is not priced to my liking, so I don't buy those products. I wish I could have everything Logos offers, but I can't. Logos is not a missionary organization that gives away software. They are a software company that happens to sell Bible software.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Tom Reynolds said:
I must say I really don't like the marketing spin on how much we've saved. You can't say you've spent $20,000 and saved $40,000 unless you have $60,000 to spend on books.
I don't think it is marketing spin. The books I have purchased through Logos are the kind of books i used to purchase in print, at vastly higher prices. I don't have to spend huge amounts of money on these scholarly works anymore, I save every time I purchase them in Logos instead of purchasing them in print the way I used to.
Additionally, because I am saving so much money through Logos, I can purchase a massively larger number of these books than I was able to when I was limited to purchasing them in print. That's a saving whichever way you look at it.
Tom Reynolds said:Really what it boils down to is that you've spent $20,000 on your library and if someone comes along now they'd never be able to afford to buy-in because the price is beyond anyone's book budget.
I don't think that's true. I quoted the retail price of a JSNTS collection of sixteen books in Logos earlier, and it works out to be 40% less than the price of just six of those books if you were to purchase them in print. That's not the pre-pub price of that collection (the pre-pub price was half as much again), it's the current retail price. And you can even get it on a twelve month purchase plan; US$50 a month.
I seriously doubt that the books Logos sells today are 'beyond anyone's book budget' as you suggest. The company seems to be selling them perfectly well, which means people are buying them.
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Greetings Joel,
I'm not sure I agree with your assesment. Quickverse charges $305 for there base package and around $1600 for the top package. And you are paying for the software. Logos software is free and downloadable and has some resources with it.
Joel Reed said:It is actually quite easy to find most of the books you offer in the software on eBook websites for free, since most of the books you carry are no longer copy-written.
That's not completely correct. The word "most" actually negates this statement. The NIV, NASB, NLT, and NET bibles are still copyrighted, as are many of the commentaries. Many of the Bible Dictionaries and concordances are still copy righted. The Opening Up Commentary series is 30 volumes and at the least $7 a volume which would be roughly 210, that's one third of the entire package. The Bible Expostition is at best $70 and you are already at half of the cost. Collins Thematic Thesaraus is $75. Holman Bible Atlas lists for roughly $30, but can be got for $18. You get the idea and I haven't even touched the surface.
If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, might I suggest e-sword. It's free, but has a suggested donation of $15, I have it on my computer but rarely use it.
In Him,
Jim
Philippians 2:3Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
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Yesterday, I thought these 2 threads were definitely good. But just 'overnight' this one has become a true 'keeper'. And it IS true; I know very few Christians that don't have 'money'. I guess there are some somewhere. Who knows?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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James Chandler said:
If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, might I suggest e-sword. It's free, but has a suggested donation of $15, I have it on my computer but rarely use it.
In Him,
Jim
I use e-sword often for quick look ups. Plus, they have an active user community who have made a lot of modules from public domain such as the ICC NT, all of Lange's commentary, several of Nicoll's, Bengal, Horae Homiletica, Neighbour, Exell, Coke, Pulpit Commentary, Heinrich Meyer, Carroll, Drummelow, and more. I do not mind using another platform since they are free.
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DMB said:
And it IS true; I know very few Christians that don't have 'money'. I guess there are some somewhere. Who knows?
I have friends who regularly spend on recreational vehicles, holidays, and skis, double the money I typically spend on Logos in a year. Seriously, skis?
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[
[:)]George Somsel said:The whole congregation of the Israelites complained
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Chris Roberts said:
Other companies have the same expense needs for developers, servers, support, etc, yet manage to sell public domain resources at less than a tenth the price.
A little-known tid-bit is that many times Logos pays to have a public domain work typed for the first time, then another company grabs the files and uses those keystrokes for their edition. So some of the things that are much cheaper are only that way because Logos first absorbed the keyboarding costs.
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Bob Pritchett said:Chris Roberts said:
Other companies have the same expense needs for developers, servers, support, etc, yet manage to sell public domain resources at less than a tenth the price.
A little-known tid-bit is that many times Logos pays to have a public domain work typed for the first time, then another company grabs the files and uses those keystrokes for their edition. So some of the things that are much cheaper are only that way because Logos first absorbed the keyboarding costs.
Yes some less reputable companies do that, and Logos has the right to make money on ALL resources it sells, some people have been wondering why the PD resources are priced so high, as I understand it (forgive me if i am wrong) PD works do not go into production till enough orders are place in Community Pricing to cover production costs. If production costs are covered by CP, then why do they get priced so high after they are made and things like what happened in march madness this year.
Quote from "
Anybody have an extra 500 votes?"
Spurgeon's Treasury of David back after march madness, I can sort of understand the complete collection not being in the sale but I cannot fathom why Treasury of David as a set is not in the sale, I would have gladly purchased it withe the discount, but Logos trying to tell me they are giving me a great deal selling me each individual volume of the TOD for about $20 each when they always sell all 6 volumes together for a regular price of 59.99???? Sorry I see little logic in them breaking up a set setting some huge price per volume and then allowing you to have a discount via a promotion that ends up you paying almost double regular pricing???? I wonder how many other "Bargains" Logos is offering that in effect work out to much more than their regular prices.
So you see why people are concerned with the pricing strategy of PD books.
-dan
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I can't help but feel like much of the discussion here has been wasted, because most of the users on this forum have been long time buyers of Logos software and will obviously defend their decision to buy the program. I don't mean to be rude, but my family runs on a single income, and my wife stays at home to school our little boy. That being said it is incredibly hard to find the extra resources to purchase a decent Bible Software program to grow in our faith. Keep in mind that Logos aren't the only 'Christian Businesses' charging an arm and a leg for their resources ... but they are certainly one of the biggest. I think one of my biggest beefs with Logos is the fact that they are taking up such a large share of the Christian Software market when it could instead be filled with something much better, like an Open Source Bible Program. Perhaps my point is getting a bit off topic, but I always thought Christians were supposed to gather together to make our community of believers stronger by working together towards a goal. Unfortunately all I see is a secular company monopolizing on the Christian buyers market.
I wouldn't argue with the fact that it is good business to charge the prices they are charging ... but I don't have to agree with that philosophy.0 -
Well, you're right about Logos 'lowering the bar'. These days with my other commercial Bible software, I start seeing them doing a 'Logosian'. Sigh. Pretty soon they'll all have to rename themselves to 'Kind-of-Have-Something-to-Do-With-Religious'y-Literature Software Company'.
But I'll have to give Logos credit. My other company (a) doesn't let me download all my mobile books to my PC (probably license rights?) and (b) doesn't answer emails as to why not. I'm too lazy to call them up. Easier to use Logos!
Yeh Logos!!!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Joel,
I appreciate your position, however I'm not that long a Logos User. Only about a year or two. I did my research, and felt like Logos was the best bang for the buck.
I heard a pastor say once you don't need a big library to grow, start with your Bible. If you want more a good commentary helps, a systematic theology (I like Wayne Grudem's) and a Bible Dictionary should be all you need.
In Him,
Jim
Philippians 2:3Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
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Joel Reed said:
I think one of my biggest beefs with Logos is the fact that they are taking up such a large share of the Christian Software market when it could instead be filled with something much better, like an Open Source Bible Program.
Now the truth begins to come forward. Your sole object in posting on the forum is to bash Logos and attempt to decrease its market share. You have at no point given any indication that you have ever even once used Logos yet you're against it. I think your ploy is despicable and totally non-Christian.
BTW: You called me a jerk for labelling your enterprise a hobby. It's as though you think there is something wrong with having a hobby whereas a hobby is something you do because you enjoy it, not necessarily because you make a profit from it. A profession is what pays the bills. A hobby may make a contribution to paying the rent/mortgage, utilities and put food on the table, but that isn't its main object. If anything labelling something a hobby indicates that you like it whereas you may thoroughly dislike your profession (in which case you might consider something else).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I think this is unnecessary.
In Him,
Jim
Philippians 2:3Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
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I agree with everything Joel has said ... he is clearly a genius and potentially the greatest mind of our century.
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George Somsel said:Joel Reed said:
I think one of my biggest beefs with Logos is the fact that they are taking up such a large share of the Christian Software market when it could instead be filled with something much better, like an Open Source Bible Program.
Now the truth begins to come forward. Your sole object in posting on the forum is to bash Logos and attempt to decrease its market share. You have at no point given any indication that you have ever even once used Logos yet you're against it. I think your ploy is despicabble.
Dude, seriously, calm down ...
That was not my intent at all, so you can stop with the slander.
I started this post because I genuinely thought Logos is too expensive ... so sue me.
What I said in my last post was really just me thinking out loud and getting off topic so try and relax my friend.
* Oh, and thanks for all the kind words Sock Puppet ... although I don't know if I would take it that far ... [;)]0 -
Joel Reed said:
I always thought Christians were supposed to gather together to make our community of believers stronger by working together towards a goal. Unfortunately all I see is a secular company monopolizing on the Christian buyers market.
I wouldn't argue with the fact that it is good business to charge the prices they are charging ... but I don't have to agree with that philosophy.I am starting to understand now. Joel, I would be interested in reading your two books, as I am sure everyone here would be. Would you mind posting them so that we can make them into Logos Personal Books? That way we could freely distribute them, and they would have Logos tagging to boot! Thanks in advance.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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No, you don't have to agree. You are entitled to be as wrong as you want to be. Even if you stand there all alone.Joel Reed said:I don't have to agree with that philosophy.
From the "uselessness" of the lower base packages....to the "overpricedness" of the resources beyond Portfolio; your business acumen has proven flawed. Logos has created products for a targeted market-share.
Some people would rather have a luxury car than $40,000 worth of Bible study software. Not me. When they box up my old, tired body, and plant it in the cemetery, the luxury car changes ownership but the meditation on God's word will cross over into my next abode. Logos is a tool that has eternal benefits if you will only use it.
In a sense I agree, Logos ministers to my spiritual needs ut I maintain they are a business and NOT a ministry.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Nothing Would Please Me More!
2260.The Book of Life - Joel Michel Reed & Nathanael Reed.pdf
6114.The Book of Dreams - Joel Michel Reed & Nathanael Reed.pdf0 -
Joel said:
* Oh, and thanks for all the kind words Sock Puppet ... although I don't know if I would take it that far ...
Whose "sock puppet" is he with 1 post (here)—yours?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Joel, I do not understand how you can criticize us for spending "too much" on Logos when in your book "Book of Life" your opening scene has the principal characters drinking champagne at a fine restaurant. Why is the temporal pleasure of food ok while expensive Bible software is not? I also challenge the all-knowing wisdom of any human to decide when they can "afford" to start a family (like the characters are discussing at their meal.) You see, my wife and I have 13 children under God's planning and also afforded many 10s of thousands of dollars in Logos software.
I guess what I am saying is a "sticky toffee" may be a luxury to some but I WANT ITALL when it comes to enjoying blessings from God. That would include having the best and most expensive Bible software available.
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Come on guys can we let this rest? You all have made your point - Pro Logos/Love Logos, let's move on.
Joel for my part welcome to the forum and God bless.
Regards
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Joel (Reed) ... just a bit of advice on this forum. When you see an entry with a single post or two, don't make assumptions on who you're chatting with. It's not difficult for others to post as if they're you.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Super Tramp said:
Joel, I do not understand how you can criticize us for spending "too much" on Logos when in your book "Book of Life" your opening scene has the principal characters drinking champagne at a fine restaurant. Why is the temporal pleasure of food ok while expensive Bible software is not? I also challenge the all-knowing wisdom of any human to decide when they can "afford" to start a family (like the characters are discussing at their meal.) You see, my wife and I have 13 children under God's planning and also afforded many 10s of thousands of dollars in Logos software.
I guess what I am saying is a "sticky toffee" may be a luxury to some but I WANT ITALL when it comes to enjoying blessings from God. That would include having the best and most expensive Bible software available.
I hope you're joking. [*-)]
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Joel Reed said:
Please tell me if I'm way off base here ... but I'm sure there are many of you out there who have experienced the same thing.I am one of those who think that some of the resources are ridiculously expensive. I posted an example about two weeks ago on the very same subject (for example http://www.logos.com/product/4104/a-critical-and-exegetical-commentary-on-numbers only 95$ for a resource that was published in 1905 and can de downloaded for free at archive.org or http://www.logos.com/product/3923/the-works-of-jonathan-edwards for 119). That being said, I don't think the base packages are too expensive since Logos has to pass some of the revenue back to the publishers. You will find some very good bible study tools that are indeed free but as soon as you want to add some more recent Bible translations you have to start paying.
Joel Reed said:
.. charging $150 for a basic Bible software package including no more
than a Few Bibles, References and Commentaries ... most of which you can
find for free on any eBook website!.Well, you could go to a junkyard and get a bunch of car parts for free or for cheap, but that doesn't mean you will end up with a cheap or good car. People buy Logos because it is a good software solution that helps them do what they need to do more efficiently than by buying cheap books individually. I know for one that Logos helped me many times.
That being said, after spending a lot of money on Logos I will NOT purchase Jonathan Edward's works for 120 (or for half that price either) or anything similarly priced for resources out of copyright. I will instead use PBB and build my own resource. I will spend 95$ for a book out of copyright ONLY when I absolutely need it or I lost the use of my mental faculties.[:)]0 -
George Somsel said:
I think your ploy is despicable and totally non-Christian.
I think Joel is completely off base. He continues to state that Logos is overpriced "software" when in fact the software can be used in a completely free fashion.
That said George, in regard to your comment, I think of the old saying, "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."
Donnie
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Joel said:
I hope you're joking.
Not at all.
God calls children a blessing and debt a curse. Only in America do we "plan" against receiving a blessing and apply in triplicate to receive a curse.
My marriage has been thus blessed 19 times (6 already in Heaven)
My Logos account reflects my appreciation of fine Bible software and my lack of love of money. [;)]
I will even spend lots of cash on a good Sushi restaurant.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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ST ... comparing Logos to sushi was COMPLETELY uncalled for. Anything else maybe. But sushi? It's just VERY unfair to Logos.
We all DO remember the good Savior, not long before his departure, was BBQ'ing fish on the shores of Galilee, and was so happy to see 'the boys' bringing in a boatload of sushi!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Oh Joel,
My wife has also been a stay-at-home Mom and home-schooled all the young-uns. I just want to point out it is possible for a single income (yes, a modest income) family to buy Logos software. People will make a way to afford what they really appreciate.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Perhaps that's true, but the point I am trying to make is that Logos is too expensive, not whether or not I can save up enough money to buy it.Super Tramp said:Oh Joel,
My wife has also been a stay-at-home Mom and home-schooled all the young-uns. I just want to point out it is possible for a single income (yes, a modest income) family to buy Logos software. People will make a way to afford what they really appreciate.
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Joel, I know that you were inundated with responses (and many less than friendly), but I do believe that there were a lot of reasoned responses that you dismissed. I do intend to read through your books by the way.
Also, why did you start a new ID?
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joel said:
Perhaps that's true, but the point I am trying to make is that Logos is too expensive, not whether or not I can save up enough money to buy it.
But that is simply not true when you compare the minuscule cost of Logos compared to what most Christians spend on entertainment (sports & recreation included.) Mary Pride wrote decades ago we can tell what gods a nation worships by the cost of their temples. Every hospital, sports stadium, fancy eating spot are witnesses against us that we could have spent more money on Bible study software.
Hey Dan Pritchet, It's time for a "beat the heat" summer sale. Turn off the air conditioners and spend the savings on some new Logos resources.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Having spent most of my adult life in a service business I can say with certainty it is up to the market to determine what the price point for any product or service will be.
Logos products are priced based on the business decisions of those who run the company. As long as they see a revenue stream and profit margin they are satisifed with, they probably will not (and should not) be concerned with reducing prices. If they see margins drop they will have to determine if increasing the cost of their products, reducing the cost of producing the products, or a combination of both is required.
Bottom line...if the product or service (logos or anything else) you consume is a good value to you, but it. If it's not don't buy it.
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Fredc said:
Having spent most of my adult life in a service business I can say with certainty it is up to the market to determine what the price point for any product or service will be.
Logos products are priced based on the business decisions of those who run the company. As long as they see a revenue stream and profit margin they are satisifed with, they probably will not (and should not) be concerned with reducing prices. If they see margins drop they will have to determine if increasing the cost of their products, reducing the cost of producing the products, or a combination of both is required.
Bottom line...if the product or service (logos or anything else) you consume is a good value to you, but it. If it's not don't buy it.
Fred, I noticed in the introductions thread that came back up recently that you are from Warrior, AL. I am right here in Kimberly and I teach at the high school. It is truly a small world.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I agree, there were some great responses, and I do appreciate them very much.Joseph Turner said:Joel, I know that you were inundated with responses (and many less than friendly), but I do believe that there were a lot of reasoned responses that you dismissed. I do intend to read through your books by the way.
Also, why did you start a new ID?
However, that doesn't really change my opinion regarding Logos charging too much for their products.
Thanks for giving my books a chance, we're almost finished our third installment so I might come back and post it in the future.
I actually forgot that I had already signed up for an account, so I ended up with another one. (Different email address that I also use regularly)0 -
Joel Reed said:
I'm sorry to say that something is simply not right with this world. I understand the fact that you have to make a profit in order to keep your feet on the ground, but charging over $600 for a beginners package seems a bit out of line.
Peace to you, Joel! and ... Always Joy in the Lord!
I have some real problems with your posts, this one .-- which is your first post on the Logos Forums -- .. and the next one ..... Perhaps I am a Logos Fan Boy since I've been using Logos Bible Software since around 1993; however, to me Logos is a great deal as I use it daily.
I did read your first .pdf The Book of Life, enjoyed quite a number of items in the book and appreciate that you shared it with the Logos Forums. I will be pondering the contents for a while, then perhaps coming back with a review. It was a pleasant 'read' -- I have to ponder neuthetic counselling, and come to various conclusions about that
My wife and I bought our Pastor the first Logos package a couple of years ago, then helped him (several times!) upgrade extensively into a much more powerful Logos with lots of bells and whistles. It will take years yet until he can complete what he wants and needs...... But, it's in the works ..... *smile*
He can always expand according to his needs ........
However, just looked again at the Logos First Level -- Home -- and it seems to me to be quite reasonable indeed! I think Logos puts together a good first library.
I'm sorry you are so unhappy, and I wish you well. But, ultimately, I can't see how that possibly can be Logos Bible Software's Fault and see no reason for you to attack them, particulalry in your first two posts -- right out of the clear blue sky! Wow! El Zappo! Lightning down on Logos!
Why are you now so very angry with Logos? Get over it and come back to the Forums and share in our give and take. You'll find this a pretty "cool" place, most of the time! We really do try to help and support one another; and it would be great if you were part of that.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Thanks for the kind wordsMilford Charles Murray said:Peace to you, Joel! and ... Always Joy in the Lord!
I have some real problems with your posts, this one .-- which is your first post on the Logos Forums -- .. and the next one .....
Perhaps I am a Logos Fan Boy since I've been using Logos Bible Software since around 1993; however, to me Logos is a great deal as I use it daily.
I did read your first .pdf The Book of Life, enjoyed quite a number of items in the book and appreciate that you shared it with the Logos Forums. I will be pondering the contents for a while, then perhaps coming back with a review. It was a pleasant 'read' -- I have to ponder neuthetic counselling, and come to various conclusions about that
My wife and I bought our Pastor the first Logos package a couple of years ago, then helped him (several times!) upgrade extensively into a much more powerful Logos with lots of bells and whistles. It will take years yet until he can complete what he wants and needs...... But, it's in the works ..... *smile*
He can always expand according to his needs ........
However, just looked again at the Logos First Level -- Home -- and it seems to me to be quite reasonable indeed!
I think Logos puts together a good first library.
I'm sorry you are so unhappy, and I wish you well. But, ultimately, I can't see how that possibly can be Logos Bible Software's Fault and see no reason for you to attack them, particulalry in your first two posts -- right out of the clear blue sky! Wow!
El Zappo! Lightning down on Logos!
Why are you now so very angry with Logos? Get over it and come back to the Forums and share in our give and take. You'll find this a pretty "cool" place, most of the time! We really do try to help and support one another; and it would be great if you were part of that.
regarding my books
Milford Charles Murray.
I will try my best to explain why I appear to be so 'mad' at Logos.
Perhaps I can illustrate my original point by using Quick Verse/Word Search as an example.
Keep in mind that I do not own Quick Verse, so this is strictly a research based point that I am trying to make.
I don't think there's any question that Quick Verse is Logos' biggest competitor, since it is an equally impressive piece of software.
That being said I believe you get much more value for your money using Quick Verse rather than Logos.
Here's an example to explain what I mean:
Logos offers 79 items as a part of their basic package for $149.99 with the option to upgrade to the next few levels for hundreds of dollars each.
In comparison, Quick Verse offers over 200 items as a part of their basic package for a cost of $129.95 with the option to upgrade to their Gold edition for a mere $79.95. (Which appears to be on par with Logos' Scholars edition) I can't see why there is such a large price difference between the two software packages when they are offering virtually the same resources for each of their 'Deluxe' Packages.
* Edit - I should also add the point that Quick Verse offers a TON of materials on their website for free, such as all of the non-copywritten books I have mentioned as free downloads.
As far as I could see, Logos doesn't offer any books on their site for free.
(Systematic Theology is free on Quick Verse but costs $43.95 on Logos, The Complete Works of Josephus is free on Quickverse but costs $19.95 on Logos, Foxe's Book of Martyrs is available for Free on Quick Verse, but is not even available on the Logos website by itself because you have to purchase it as a set. These are only a few examples ... I could go on and on about the overpriced products on Logos' website, but I'll save you the chatter.
Perhaps some of you know something that I don't know ... but as far as I can see Logos is a massive rip off.0 -
Joseph Turner said:
Fred, I noticed in the introductions thread that came back up recently that you are from Warrior, AL. I am right here in Kimberly and I teach at the high school. It is truly a small world.
It is a small world. My church is Westside right at exit 281. Feel free to contact me off the forums through the website.
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Joel said:
Here's an example to explain what I mean:
Logos offers 79 items as a part of their basic package for $149.99 with the option to upgrade to the next few levels for hundreds of dollars each.
In comparison, Quick Verse offers over 200 items as a part of their basic package for a cost of $129.95 with the option to upgrade to their Gold edition for a mere $79.95. (Which appears to be on par with Logos' Scholars edition) I can't see why there is such a large price difference between the two software packages when they are offering virtually the same resources for each of their 'Deluxe' Packages.
* Edit - I should also add the point that Quick Verse offers a TON of materials on their website for free, such as all of the non-copywritten books I have mentioned as free downloads. (Systematic Theology is free on Quick Verse but costs $43.95 on Logos, The Complete Works of Josephus is free on Quickverse but costs $19.95 on Logos, Foxe's Book of Martyrs is available for Free on Quick Verse, but is not even available on the Logos website by itself because you have to purchase it as a set. These are only a few examples ... I could go on and on about the overpriced products on Logos' website. As far as I could see, Logos doesn't offer any books on their site for free.
Perhaps some of you know something that I don't know ... but as far as I can see Logos is a massive rip off.I noticed on the front page the NIV Application commentary set for Quickverse is considerably more expensive than it is in Logos, but I also noticed that the New American Commentary set is less expensive in Quickverse, but the books that you get in the Quickverse base packages are mostly books that you could get elsewhere free, and Quickverse doesn't offer anywhere near as many newer scholarly commentaries and books as Logos does, which means that it is not going to be nearly as expandable in the long run. I also know that previous versions of QV are not as powerful as Logos. I also don't think that QV has the original language tools that Logos has. It is a highly inferior product.
You can't really make any judgments until you try Logos. You can try any package for 30 days, so you have nothing to lose. You then have every right to say what you want if you don't like it or think it's worth it.
By the way, Logos does offer free books via Vyrso and monthly free specials.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I think there are a lot of great products offered in the Logos package, but to say there aren't any deep scholarly commentaries and books included with Quick Verse is simply not true. In my opinion Quick Verse has a lot of solid resources to offer. Naturally if you are specifically seeking the kind of resources that Logos offers, then I'm sure you will be satisfied with your purchase. But you can't deny the fact that Logos charges a lot more for most of their products. Go through some of the items and I'm sure many of you will be surprised.Joseph Turner said:I noticed on the front page the NIV Application commentary set for Quickverse is considerably more expensive than it is in Logos, but I also noticed that the New American Commentary set is less expensive in Quickverse, but the books that you get in the Quickverse base packages are mostly books that you could get elsewhere free, and Quickverse doesn't offer anywhere near as many newer scholarly commentaries and books as Logos does, which means that it is not going to be nearly as expandable in the long run. I also know that previous versions of QV are not as powerful as Logos. I also don't think that QV has the original language tools that Logos has. It is a highly inferior product.
You can't really make any judgments until you try Logos. You can try any package for 30 days, so you have nothing to lose. You then have every right to say what you want if you don't like it or think it's worth it.
[quote]
By the way, Logos does offer free books via Vyrso and monthly free specials.
I stand corrected.0 -
I stand corrected.Joel said:
I think there are a lot of great products offered in the Logos package, but to say there aren't any deep scholarly commentaries and books included with Quick Verse is simply not true. In my opinion Quick Verse has a lot of solid resources to offer. Naturally if you are specifically seeking the kind of resources that Logos offers, then I'm sure you will be satisfied with your purchase. But you can't deny the fact that Logos charges a lot more for most of their products. Go through some of the items and I'm sure many of you will be surprised.Joseph Turner said:I noticed on the front page the NIV Application commentary set for Quickverse is considerably more expensive than it is in Logos, but I also noticed that the New American Commentary set is less expensive in Quickverse, but the books that you get in the Quickverse base packages are mostly books that you could get elsewhere free, and Quickverse doesn't offer anywhere near as many newer scholarly commentaries and books as Logos does, which means that it is not going to be nearly as expandable in the long run. I also know that previous versions of QV are not as powerful as Logos. I also don't think that QV has the original language tools that Logos has. It is a highly inferior product.
You can't really make any judgments until you try Logos. You can try any package for 30 days, so you have nothing to lose. You then have every right to say what you want if you don't like it or think it's worth it.
[quote]
By the way, Logos does offer free books via Vyrso and monthly free specials.
Now I didn't say that Quickverse didn't have any scholarly commentaries did I? They seem to have NIV Application Commentary and New American Commentary, which I like. Logos has those, plus Word Biblical Commentary, Hermeneia, Anchor Bible, New International Comentary on the Old/New Testaments, etc... I as deffinitely correct instating that Quickverse has nowhere near the amount.
I also forgot that you can download the Logos Perseus collections that will add thousands of ancient works without charge.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joel said:
As far as I could see, Logos doesn't offer any books on their site for free.
Logos has a number of items for $ 0.00 => http://www.logos.com/products/search?start=0&sort=pricelo&pageSize=30 with the Perseus collections totaling 1,743 resources.
http://vyrso.com has monthly specials that include a number of eBooks for $ 0.00 (readable and searchable in Logos 4).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Really these are two different products market segmented to varying groups of software users. Comparing these two products really does seem like mixing Apples and Oranges and hoping no one will notice. It strikes me that Logos has a two edged sword of providing the most product for your buck at the same time, with it's monopoly in the market place, also charging the highest price possible to those using it. For the high end its quite a bang for the $20,000 buck if you want a portable library that a small seminary would be proud of while also delivering entry level products Lifeway Resources easily beat for the money. After Logos saturates a rather limited market with several thousand more antiquated works I wonder what will be next to turn a profit...maybe buy Lifeway and then sell the whole company to Barnes & Noble for market consolidation. Imagine the possibilities of thousands more public domain books to add to your Family Friend Research and Education Station.
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Joel Reed said:
I don't mean to be rude, but my family runs on a single income, and my wife stays at home to school our little boy. That being said it is incredibly hard to find the extra resources to purchase a decent Bible Software program to grow in our faith.
Understand single income plus unemployment. Thankful for Logos payment plan option. Logos does not charge interest on the outstanding balance, but does pass along a monthly fee for processing payments. If payment plan balance is paid off early, the monthly processing fee is avoided.
One idea is talking with Logos sales => http://www.logos.com/about/contact
If Logos resources and library integration are not valuable to you, then using freely available open source is a viable alternative.
Joel Reed said:I think one of my biggest beefs with Logos is the fact that they are taking up such a large share of the Christian Software market when it could instead be filled with something much better, like an Open Source Bible Program.
Open source programs are available (e.g. TheWord), which have several thousand resources, which is significantly less than resources available for use in Logos. Caveat: trying manage/organize lots of resources in TheWord can be a bit challenging. Logos 4 has better library management for thousands of resources.
Logos Bible Software has more usable features than open source alternatives; albeit a number of Logos features need appropriate resources, which can cost. A number of Logos Bible Software users interact with their library for many hours every day.
Note: Logos 4 Mac uses the mono open source project so Logos 4 code base can be shared on PC and Mac.
By the way, several large companies have funded substantial open source development to provide competitive alternatives.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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From somebody who did own 3 versions of QV before buying Logos 8 years ago. Logos is a MUCH more powerful program. QV was a Bible Software program but Logos is a Digital Library and the Greek and Hebrew tools are FAR superior. These two programs are not even comparable! If you bought QV AND BibleWorks then you might have a basis for comparing what is included in Logos.
I like to think of it as varying quality of tools. I do minor household repairs so I buy my wrenches at a discount store and the quality is fine for my purpose. If I made my living with my wrenches I would expect to buy a higher quality tool from one of those trucks that markets to mechanics (Snap-on or Matco). I don't fault those who sell or buy higher quality wrenches--they just are not a wise stewardship for my abilities. However, my abilities to wrestle with theology and original languages are such that I demand better tools and the value that I derive from using logos is a good stewardship of my time and finances.
Instead of giving too much credence to somebody who has admittingly never owned EITHER Logos or QV - it may be more prudent to consider the opinions of those who own one or both.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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