Now the first three EEC commentaries are available individually
So I came home from work to find the first three commentaries released in the EEC now available individually. I expected to get on the forums and already find a thread or two brimming with conversation! ...but nary a one was.
Aside from price, I need to know how to think about this! 
(too tired at the end of the day)
Please discuss!
Comments
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Looks like they need to change this page: http://evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/order/
It says:
I never believed that this would continue to be the case forever, but the fact that the EEC site hasn't been updated makes it false information..
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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It is a little unexpected this early in the game with all the fuss about the EEC only being available as a set. The EEC is still the most expensive commentaries in my library. It would seem that it would be difficult to develop a reputation and market for an unpublished series that is only available as a total set that would be published in the future. IN the face of plans to meet projected publication dates, there had to be adjustments to release dates and author assignments. Certain volumes by particular authors caused me to invest early, if I could have been sure that individual volumes would be available within 18 months I might have held off and perhaps picked up individuals volumes as needed.
I will console myself with thoughts that the advantages of the EEC together with a wishful belief that volumes might be released earlier than announced make the early investment worthwhile. Eventually, I hope to find that the EEC was a bargin. As with all of life, I wish I had known with certainity more at the beginning.
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Paul Newsome said:
I need to know how to think about this!
I did not buy in as the series would not be completed before my need for it likely ended. I hope for everyone's sake the series is still alive and will be released somewhat close to schedule.
I find it not just interesting but a backing away from a pre-pub guarantee made about this set. I find that unsettling. Since I didn't buy in it only can benefit me. If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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I should add that before this thread is picked up by those who already have a bone to pick with Logos, that it would be very good to hear an official response from Logos about this.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Given the fact that we had no choice but to finance the ENTIRE set at the outset by paying a whopping big price,, in faith, sight unseen, or do without, this making the individual volumes available to everyone else now at this early date, is a real kick in the face. Gee - thanks a lot Logos - see if I do THAT again.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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I agree that it is a problem that it was advertised as only a set, but I am glad they are breaking it up for the sake of those who didn't get in or who can't afford the whole set.
I am very happy about the price I got the set for considering the individual price of the commentaries...makes me feel like I got an even better deal. There are 44 volumes in the set and I was given interest free financing.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jacob Hantla said:
I agree that it is a problem that it was advertised as only a set, but I am glad they are breaking it up for the sake of those who didn't get in or who can't afford the whole set.
I am very happy about the price I got the set for considering the individual price of the commentaries...makes me feel like I got an even better deal. There are 44 volumes in the set and I was given interest free financing.
I feel the same about it. If they keep the original aim and continue according to the schedule with not too many delays, it doesn't bother me that it is available as individual volumes. At least we will have a biger user base to evaluate this commentaries.
Bohuslav
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Lesson Learned: Genre like advertisements is not to be taken literally.
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My primary concern is not the release of the volumes individually, but how much the release schedule may change. Hopefully with the individual releases the EEC will become more popular and maybe the publisher will "encourage" the authors to stick to the schedule.
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Disappionted as well- not sure of the quality of these volumes- made a big investment here- now wish I had waited to review the quality first.
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Paul Newsome said:
Aside from price, I need to know how to think about this!
(too tired at the end of the day) I was a skeptic from the beginning, having spent over 20 yrs in Christian publishing. I knew that publishing deadlines always slip, often for many years, on commentary series. I bought in at the last minute, based on my confidence in Logos to do the best possible job of fulfilling its promises. I also knew that I was getting a bargain, over the long run, if I live long enough.
I am not surprised that some of the original concepts of the set (only sold as a set) have changed. I didnt see how that would ever work out for them.
The 44 volumes cost me about $16 each. Those who buy the set today will pay about $23 each. Both are considerably cheaper than the individual volume prices.
I haven't used the released volumes enough yet to determine their real value to me.
I'm glad that they will be available to those who did not commit to the future publication of the set. I know that the sale of the current volumes will help underwrite the development cost of the set.
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I suspect, based on many comments in the forums about the willingness of Logos Customer Service to please its users, that if you are really upset about this and feel that Logos deceived you or all of us and you now regret your decision to buy the EEC at the pre-pub price, a complaint call to Customer Service will result in Logos refunding you your $699 and removing the EEC from your library, and you can then buy individually the few volumes (or none at all) that you wish at the retail price.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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It really makes good sense to release these commentaries individually. You still have quite a savings if you bought the set.
This is a new commentary set. Therefore, it needs as wide a distribution as possible in order to become accepted as a reputable scholarly resource. If you limit its market to those who bought the entire set (of an unproven and expensive new commentary), it will be hard for the set to establish itself. It will increase the value of the set for everyone to sell it in every way to everybody possible.
Also, those who buy a volume are likely to come back and buy others, perhaps the entire set. Logos needs this extra revenue to complete the expensive process of publishing a new critical commentary.
Selling the individual volumes is a win / win situation.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
Selling the individual volumes is a win / win situation.
I think so also. I am glad I am in from the very beginning. The bigger user base, the bigger chance the set will be completed.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:Michael Childs said:
Selling the individual volumes is a win / win situation.
I think so also. I am glad I am in from the very beginning. The bigger user base, the bigger chance the set will be completed.
I agree.
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Mark Smith said:
If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.
[*-)]
I bought the series and I have read the 2/3 of the first 3 and I'm trying to find time to read the third. I agree that the set has been a worthy addition to my library so far. I also concur that I got an overall phenomenal price for a completed set but since I haven't got the completed set yet I cannot comment on the remaining volumes.
That said...
I'm not sure what to think about this development.
I know, I know... plans change.
:-/
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TCBlack said:Mark Smith said:
If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.
I bought the series and I have read the 2/3 of the first 3 and I'm trying to find time to read the third. I agree that the set has been a worthy addition to my library so far. I also concur that I got an overall phenomenal price for a completed set but since I haven't got the completed set yet I cannot comment on the remaining volumes.
That said...
I'm not sure what to think about this development.
I know, I know... plans change.
:-/
Kind of like how Jesus seemed to give His disciples every reason to believe that He would return to reign and rule during the lifetime of most, or at least some, of them - even Paul seemed to be under this impression - but then apparently decided that He would delay His return by 2,000 years or more....
Plans change.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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TCBlack said:
I'm not sure what to think about this development.
I know, I know... plans change.
:-/
Yes, plans change, and at the end of the day I presume that I will still get a full commentary set at a reasonable price. But having been told that the only way to buy this was as a whole package and the sooner I got on board the cheaper it would be, if things must change it would be nice to told that by Logos and given the reasons why before it happens, not to discover it in a forum thread. Although no harm is done to me, it just doesn't feel right for some reason.
I love Logos, but communication could be improved a lot.
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Jonathan Pitts said:
I love Logos, but communication could be improved a lot.
I agree with this statement, and not just about this incident.
BTW: I purchased the set, and the release of individual volumes does not bother me. At the price of the current volumes, the set will cost 250+% of what I paid.
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Mark Smith said:
I find it not just interesting but a backing away from a pre-pub guarantee made about this set. I find that unsettling. Since I didn't buy in it only can benefit me. If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.
I bought the set at a time when my finances were a little tight; I bought in because I really wanted to get it and thought that I would be saving myself some money by getting the early price. I was convinced that the set would be available only as a set (this was stressed pretty clearly at the beginning). I definitely would not have bought the set if I knew that I could purchase individual volumes so soon. It's also a little disheartening to realize that a large number of the volumes are several years from availability. However, I'm not sure if I would say that I have been deceived. But I would say I feel a little foolish falling for all the hype.
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Michael Childs said:
This is a new commentary set. Therefore, it needs as wide a distribution as possible in order to become accepted as a reputable scholarly resource.
I agree - however it seems, there's still some way to go. One aspect would be to see readers' review comments on the product pages (none) or at least some thoughts here. I'm not qualified for a review, but let me share my observations.
Being more interested in the NT than the OT commentaries, I looked up the pages for Phlm/Col and 1-3 John. The first one was obviously created when there was only Philemon as a standalone thing (?!) and it has no preview of the book. Logos should do their homework on this page.
The one on the Johannine Epistles allows for look-into - what shall I say, "I'm not really impressed" would be an understatement. This is the first text from the series that wants to be the heir to WBC and BECNT? Give me a break. E.g. the 250 word on genre read like a Clippings file, lining up various snippets taken from seemingly arbitrary sources with no discussion. The conclusion is not substantiated by an argument (for comparison: Kruse in Pillars has twice as much, despite being contrained by the pages on paper, and develops a well worded text).
Same later in the commentary on 1:1 - five or six alternative positions are cited (not explained) without a discussion. Reminds me of the SIL Exegetical Summaries with all the good bits left out. I wondered whether this was a student's assignment ("what positions are held regarding this text? Find a couple of quotes from something in the library, but no more than 200 words") rather than a technical and pastoral commentary that's out to become the showcase for evangelical exegesis in the twenty-first century.
Hm. I really was willing to be persuaded. I like John's letters, I like to have a number of commentaries per book, I want to dig deeper into John's letters as a beginner in Greek.Michael Childs said:Also, those who buy a volume are likely to come back and buy others, perhaps the entire set.
Reading the look-into pages was a real disappointment for me.
The trick that publishers of dead-tree commentaries use is to have a real "bang!" as the first issue (sometimes they badge engineer an outstanding existing work into the first installment of the series just for this purpose), just for the purpose of raking in favorable comments, pushing it on Amazon and bestcommentaries.com, in the seminary journals and the ETS. We all know that and Logos knows it even better. The little bit I've seen from the NT volumes today on logos.com doesn't make me hold my breath for other volumes.
Maybe someone who owns these resources and has deeper insight into their value can come and readjust my perception.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Daniel Bender wrote the following post at Today 1:19 PM: [8/15/2012]
I bought the set at a time when my finances were a little tight; I bought in because I really wanted to get it and thought that I would be saving myself some money by getting the early price. I was convinced that the set would be available only as a set (this was stressed pretty clearly at the beginning). I definitely would not have bought the set if I knew that I could purchase individual volumes so soon. It's also a little disheartening to realize that a large number of the volumes are several years from availability. However, I'm not sure if I would say that I have been deceived. But I would say I feel a little foolish falling for all the hype.
End Quote
The above quote sums up most of the comments on this thread.
Making the individual volumes available allowed me to get one that I wanted.
There are some others that I want. And will get them when available but will most likely will never get the set.
I am thankful that the individual volumes are available.
But I understand that we were told ‘set only’.
Yes, it would have been nice if those that bought the set with the understanding that that was the only way had been told of the change.0 -
The situation is even worse when you consider the discounts for the individual volumes in the academic program. I would have NEVER bought the set (even at the “best price” that I was given for jumping in early) if I knew they would be available individually at these prices (or available individually at all). I have to say that I feel somewhat cheated. It would have been a better deal for me to put the money in an interest bearing account and purchase volumes as they are published. I would have only spent $40.36 so far and the interest (calculated at 1%) I would have earned would have paid for more than 15% of the purchase. Most importantly, I would have been able to skip inferior or redundant volumes and save even more.Daniel Bender said:
I bought the set at a time when my finances were a little tight; I bought in because I really wanted to get it and thought that I would be saving myself some money by getting the early price. I was convinced that the set would be available only as a set (this was stressed pretty clearly at the beginning). I definitely would not have bought the set if I knew that I could purchase individual volumes so soon. It's also a little disheartening to realize that a large number of the volumes are several years from availability. However, I'm not sure if I would say that I have been deceived. But I would say I feel a little foolish falling for all the hype.
I am not complaining about the fact that commentaries did not quite live up to the hype because I knew going in that Logos could not possibly deliver on the lofty promises to write a series that would be the new standard discussed in all scholarly journals and able to satisfy both scholars and laypeople alike.
I am however not pleased that Logos did not find necessary to inform us individually (if they can call me to offer me new deals, they are surely able to update me about past purchases and changing situations).
I guess it is a case of live and learn and … never again0 -
Seriously, folks, if you feel you were deceived (and there is some validity to that charge - i.e., that you responded to a repeated hard-sell promotion or sales pitch that Logos was making which now in light of the current situation appears to have been a misrepresentation of the offer), then call Logos Customer Service and request a complete refund on your EEC purchase and remove it from your resources. Has anyone who here feels they were deceived or tricked attempted to do that and been rebuffed by Customer Service (which would likely also be a valid ground for complaint)?
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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I purchased 1,2,3 John yesterday. The introduction read just like a sermon I had heard in the past from David Legge. I am disappointed so far.
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Michael said:
I purchased 1,2,3 John yesterday. The introduction read just like a sermon I had heard in the past from David Legge. I am disappointed so far.
Fortunately for you in your case you clearly have 30 days to decide whether to keep it or return it.
Which part(s) of the Introduction are you referring to, and in what way does it replicate or echo Legge? The Introduction to 1 John includes/discusses Author, Recipients and Date, Theory of a Johannine School, Occasion and Setting, Order of Composition, Relationship to the Gospel of John, Relationship to the Other Two Epistles, Purpose(s), Genre, Characteristics, Theological and Practical Emphases of the Epistle, Literary Design, Johannine Dualism, and an Outline.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:
Seriously, folks, if you feel you were deceived (and there is some validity to that charge - i.e., that you responded to a repeated hard-sell promotion or sales pitch that Logos was making which now in light of the current situation appears to have been a misrepresentation of the offer), then call Logos Customer Service and request a complete refund on your EEC purchase and remove it from your resources.
That is the great thing about Logos: satisfaction is guaranteed, and refunds are always available.
Nobody is perfect, but Logos is a great company to do business with.
Keep in mind that there is no perfect commentary set. Every set is a mixed bag with some very good and some not so good volumes - every set. That will be true of the EEC. However, the list of scholars working on the EEC indicate that there will be some gems in this set. The only reason anyone should ever buy an entire set of commentaries is that one gets a real bargain price per volume by buying them all.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
The only commentary that I have read through from EEC is the Ezra Nehemiah one. I used it as I studied the passage and found it incredibly helpful, particularly in its treatment of the historical setting. Some of the "application questions" were a bit lame or forced, but overall if the quality of the set lives up to the quality of the first one I am happy and I am happy that people can buy them individually.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
I am really happy that I got in for so little per volume.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jack Caviness said:Jonathan Pitts said:
I love Logos, but communication could be improved a lot.
I agree with this statement, and not just about this incident.
BTW: I purchased the set, and the release of individual volumes does not bother me. At the price of the current volumes, the set will cost 250+% of what I paid.
... and now James has appeared as a pre-pub . I bought into the set (and remain glad that I have done so) ... but the website does not seem to know this ... am I blessed that I have the opportunity to buy a second copy ? !
Come on Logos ... when will the site look at our licences and know what we have got, regardless of whether it was a bundle or not?
2017 15" MBP, iPad Pro
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Martin Folley said:
Come on Logos ... when will the site look at our licences and know what we have got, regardless of whether it was a bundle or not?
According to Phil yesterday: just about now. [:D]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Um. Yes.Jacob Hantla said:Some of the "application questions" were a bit lame or forced
After reflection, I've determined that I don't care about the set being broken up. I paid what I paid when I paid it because I was both convinced and willing that it was a worthwhile gamble to make.
I still am.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Interesting.
So initially we're told that it will only be sold as a set, so Get It Now! because the set price will go up incrementally as each volume is published between now and 2019.
Then we just recently saw that the already-published volumes are - and will be - available individually.
And now we find out that the about-to-be-published volumes (or James at least as the first upcoming one) will be available at pre-pub prices.
So:
1. If you bought the set during its initial promotion, you got it at $699.95 (average ~$16 per volume) - or $799.95 if you waited too long.
2. If you want the set now, it will cost $999.95 (average ~$23 per volume), and will probably go up incrementally in price as each volume is released, as Logos said.
3. Published volumes are now available individually at ~$34-$51 each.
4. To-be-published volumes will first be available as pre-pubs at a 25% discount, or a minimum of ~$25 each, assuming James is a lowest-priced volume.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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However it "maths out" Eric, I suspect that Logos has had a change in heart because not enough people are involved on the purchasing side.
Getting some folks in on individual volumes may in fact entice them to buy the set.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
So if you buy all the volumes individually: At prepub prices it will come out a little over $1500 and at retail will be about $2000. These are conservative figures and actual prices will probably be more. Sounds like those that want all of them and got in initially got a real bargain and if they only wanted half of them, got the others free. If you follow my thinking.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
Wiki Table of Contents0 -
Jerry M said:
So if you buy all the volumes individually: At prepub prices it will come out a little over $1500 and at retail will be about $2000. These are conservative figures and actual prices will probably be more. Sounds like those that want all of them and got in initially got a real bargain and if they only wanted half of them, got the others free. If you follow my thinking.
I in fact did get in at $699.95 near the beginning after debating for a couple weeks (and forgetting that I could still cancel anytime I wanted to, including 30 days after the first volume shipped), figuring that an up-to-date commentary set on the whole Bible for that price was a good deal, even if it was heavily weighted with DTS-prof types, as long as too many of the volumes weren't sub-par. I paid it off at the 12-months-no-fee plan back in May. I still think it will be well worth the investment for a current full-Bible commentary series.
It would probably assuage some hurt feelings if the Logos Blog would have a post on why they changed the sale plan for the EEC.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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If this was the plan from the beginning, we were deliberately deceived. If circumstances have dictated a change, then why won't Logos let us know? Most of us are loyal Logos customers for a long time and have proven to be understanding when we know the facts. I cannot believe that Logos is unaware of our feelings on this by now. Their ongoing silence on the matter makes one suspicious that they don't have a satisfactory answer to this.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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<clipboard artifact removed>
Probably yes.Eric Weiss said:It would probably assuage some hurt feelings if the Logos Blog would have a post on why they changed the sale plan for the EEC.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Alex Scott said:
Their ongoing silence on the matter makes one suspicious that they don't have a satisfactory answer to this.
An email to every person who ordered on pre-pub before the situation changed would have been appropriate. Of course, it might have created a lot of backlash or negative posting before the event.
I think a pre-pub is a mutual commitment , esp. once money changes hands. It is a partnership. I believe it should be treated that way. Someone at Logos does not.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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TCBlack said:
I paid what I paid when I paid it because I was both convinced and willing that it was a worthwhile gamble to make.
I still am.
Someone said, "Great minds think alike." Happy to see that this also applies to our minds [:D]
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I am not usually given to complain, but I am disappointed with this.
In all honesty, I am generally uncomfortable with what I perceive to be Logos' high pressure sale technique: buy now before the price increases by x-amount (particularly given that 'x-amount' is most often synonymous with 'unaffordable'). I agree that I am responsible for my own purchasing decisions and finances. I am fully capable of saying no. I also recognise that this may be a cultural thing (I am from the UK).
It is my recollection that the 'pitch' implied (at the very least) that this set would not be broken up and available for the foreseeable future. I expected that the foreseeable future extended beyond (in fact, way beyond) the first three instalments. Had I known that the set was to be broken up at such an early stage, I would have just purchased the instalments which most interested me, as and when they became available.
It has been suggested that if we are unhappy we should request a refund. To be honest with you, I would feel uncomfortable doing this given that I have been using the initial offerings and have paid a significant chunk of the total cost. (I appreciate this may seem silly.)
Irrespective of my reticence in requesting a refund, this does not feel right and I am somewhat less than impressed.
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OT comment removed [;)]
Have joy in the Lord!
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Thanks for all your feedback. For those of you who purchased the whole set and are concerned, you can rest assured that we intend to protect the value of your purchase. We are experimenting with offering individual volumes as a tool to get people into the whole set (and we're open to reevaluating that decision). However, individual volumes will be priced much higher. So buying the set on Pre-Pub will still have been the best value for getting this set.
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Phil, why exactly did Logos state clearly at the outset that the set would be available only as a whole, then go back on that without so much as a heads up or an explanation?
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Phil, why exactly did Logos state clearly at the outset that the set would be available only as a whole, then go back on that without so much as a heads up or an explanation?
Mark, I'll need to review what was actually said. When I authorized offering the individual volumes, I didn't recall any kind of promise that was made that we'd never make them available individually (and apparently the others that I discussed it with didn't either). I'm not saying that's not the case, only that it wasn't done intentionally aware of conflicting promises. If you have them handy and can point me to them, I'd appreciate it. As I said, we're happy to reevaluate this decision, especially if it's in conflict with something we said originally.
I apologize in advance if we made a mistake. Things have been extra busy lately (my wife and I just welcomed our first son into the world: I'm typing this as he makes his cute little noises next to me
), and I may have made too hasty of a decision without all of the necessary pieces of data. We will do what's necessary to make things right.0 -
Phil Gons said:
I didn't recall any kind of promise that was made that we'd never make them available individually (and apparently the others that I discussed it with didn't either). I'm not saying that's not the case, only that it wasn't done intentionally aware of conflicting promises. If you have them handy and can point me to them, I'd appreciate it. As I said, we're happy to reevaluate this decision, especially if it's in conflict with something we said originally.
Fair enough Phil. Busy happens and I know decisions get made along the way in the midst of busy.
Since you asked; this is on the eec website (http://evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/order/):
The same wording was extant on the original order page. (Via the wayback machine you can find it.)
[quote]"The EEC is only available as a set. The commentaries are not available for individual purchase."
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I haven’t kept the emails, but the website says it is only available as a set:
http://evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/order/
I'm pretty sure we were told that it would remain only available as a set, but I don't have the evidence for that.
See my comments above. The change to selling individual volumes isn’t necessary a bad thing, but we would just like to have been told and given a reason before the change was made (and perhaps the option of a refund given to those who want it).0 -
We were told that volumes would not be available individually before any had been published, hence that had to be taken as a future expectation and was used as a reason why people needed to commit to the full series.
It is not particularly outrageous but it was in hindsight definitely misleading and may undermine future Logos marketing.
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Phil Gons said:
(my wife and I just welcomed our first son into the world: I'm typing this as he makes his cute little noises next to me
)My other comments are pending moderation.... but I just have to say...
Congratulations!Enjoy the lack of sleep these next few months.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0
