Now the first three EEC commentaries are available individually

So I came home from work to find the first three commentaries released in the EEC now available individually. I expected to get on the forums and already find a thread or two brimming with conversation! ...but nary a one was.

Aside from price, I need to know how to think about this! Wink (too tired at the end of the day)

Please discuss!

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Todd Phillips

Looks like they need to change this page: http://evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/order/

It says:

I never believed that this would continue to be the case forever, but the fact that the EEC site hasn't been updated makes it false information..

Dean J. Ferguson

It is a little unexpected this early in the game with all the fuss about the EEC only being available as a set. The EEC is still the most expensive commentaries in my library. It would seem that it would be difficult to develop a reputation and market for an unpublished series that is only available as a total set that would be published in the future. IN the face of plans to meet projected publication dates, there had to be adjustments to release dates and author assignments. Certain volumes by particular authors caused me to invest early, if I could have been sure that individual volumes would be available within 18 months I might have held off and perhaps picked up individuals volumes as needed.

I will console myself with thoughts that the advantages of the EEC together with a wishful belief that volumes might be released earlier than announced make the early investment worthwhile. Eventually, I hope to find that the EEC was a bargin. As with all of life, I wish I had known with certainity more at the beginning.

Mark Smith

I need to know how to think about this!

I did not buy in as the series would not be completed before my need for it likely ended. I hope for everyone's sake the series is still alive and will be released somewhat close to schedule.

I find it not just interesting but a backing away from a pre-pub guarantee made about this set. I find that unsettling. Since I didn't buy in it only can benefit me. If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.

Mark Smith

I should add that before this thread is picked up by those who already have a bone to pick with Logos, that it would be very good to hear an official response from Logos about this.

Alex Scott

Given the fact that we had no choice but to finance the ENTIRE set at the outset by paying a whopping big price,, in faith, sight unseen, or do without, this making the individual volumes available to everyone else now at this early date, is a real kick in the face. Gee - thanks a lot Logos - see if I do THAT again.

Jacob Hantla

I agree that it is a problem that it was advertised as only a set, but I am glad they are breaking it up for the sake of those who didn't get in or who can't afford the whole set.

I am very happy about the price I got the set for considering the individual price of the commentaries...makes me feel like I got an even better deal. There are 44 volumes in the set and I was given interest free financing.

Bohuslav Wojnar

I agree that it is a problem that it was advertised as only a set, but I am glad they are breaking it up for the sake of those who didn't get in or who can't afford the whole set.

I am very happy about the price I got the set for considering the individual price of the commentaries...makes me feel like I got an even better deal. There are 44 volumes in the set and I was given interest free financing.

I feel the same about it. If they keep the original aim and continue according to the schedule with not too many delays, it doesn't bother me that it is available as individual volumes. At least we will have a biger user base to evaluate this commentaries.

Edwin Bowden

Aside from price, I need to know how to think about this! (too tired at the end of the day)

I was a skeptic from the beginning, having spent over 20 yrs in Christian publishing. I knew that publishing deadlines always slip, often for many years, on commentary series. I bought in at the last minute, based on my confidence in Logos to do the best possible job of fulfilling its promises. I also knew that I was getting a bargain, over the long run, if I live long enough.

I am not surprised that some of the original concepts of the set (only sold as a set) have changed. I didnt see how that would ever work out for them.

The 44 volumes cost me about $16 each. Those who buy the set today will pay about $23 each. Both are considerably cheaper than the individual volume prices.

I haven't used the released volumes enough yet to determine their real value to me.

I'm glad that they will be available to those who did not commit to the future publication of the set. I know that the sale of the current volumes will help underwrite the development cost of the set.

Eric Weiss

I suspect, based on many comments in the forums about the willingness of Logos Customer Service to please its users, that if you are really upset about this and feel that Logos deceived you or all of us and you now regret your decision to buy the EEC at the pre-pub price, a complaint call to Customer Service will result in Logos refunding you your $699 and removing the EEC from your library, and you can then buy individually the few volumes (or none at all) that you wish at the retail price.

Mike Childs

It really makes good sense to release these commentaries individually. You still have quite a savings if you bought the set.

This is a new commentary set. Therefore, it needs as wide a distribution as possible in order to become accepted as a reputable scholarly resource. If you limit its market to those who bought the entire set (of an unproven and expensive new commentary), it will be hard for the set to establish itself. It will increase the value of the set for everyone to sell it in every way to everybody possible.

Also, those who buy a volume are likely to come back and buy others, perhaps the entire set. Logos needs this extra revenue to complete the expensive process of publishing a new critical commentary.

Selling the individual volumes is a win / win situation.

Bohuslav Wojnar

Selling the individual volumes is a win / win situation.

I think so also. I am glad I am in from the very beginning. The bigger user base, the bigger chance the set will be completed.

Ronald Quick

Selling the individual volumes is a win / win situation.

I think so also. I am glad I am in from the very beginning. The bigger user base, the bigger chance the set will be completed.

I agree.

TCBlack

If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.

[*-)]

I bought the series and I have read the 2/3 of the first 3 and I'm trying to find time to read the third. I agree that the set has been a worthy addition to my library so far. I also concur that I got an overall phenomenal price for a completed set but since I haven't got the completed set yet I cannot comment on the remaining volumes.

That said...

I'm not sure what to think about this development.

I know, I know... plans change.

:-/

Eric Weiss

If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.

I bought the series and I have read the 2/3 of the first 3 and I'm trying to find time to read the third. I agree that the set has been a worthy addition to my library so far. I also concur that I got an overall phenomenal price for a completed set but since I haven't got the completed set yet I cannot comment on the remaining volumes.

That said...

I'm not sure what to think about this development.

I know, I know... plans change.

:-/

Kind of like how Jesus seemed to give His disciples every reason to believe that He would return to reign and rule during the lifetime of most, or at least some, of them - even Paul seemed to be under this impression - but then apparently decided that He would delay His return by 2,000 years or more....

Plans change.

Jonathan Pitts

I'm not sure what to think about this development.

I know, I know... plans change.

:-/

Yes, plans change, and at the end of the day I presume that I will still get a full commentary set at a reasonable price. But having been told that the only way to buy this was as a whole package and the sooner I got on board the cheaper it would be, if things must change it would be nice to told that by Logos and given the reasons why before it happens, not to discover it in a forum thread. Although no harm is done to me, it just doesn't feel right for some reason.

I love Logos, but communication could be improved a lot.

Jack Caviness

I love Logos, but communication could be improved a lot.

I agree with this statement, and not just about this incident.

BTW: I purchased the set, and the release of individual volumes does not bother me. At the price of the current volumes, the set will cost 250+% of what I paid.

Daniel Bender

I find it not just interesting but a backing away from a pre-pub guarantee made about this set. I find that unsettling. Since I didn't buy in it only can benefit me. If I had bought in, I'd feel deceived.

I bought the set at a time when my finances were a little tight; I bought in because I really wanted to get it and thought that I would be saving myself some money by getting the early price. I was convinced that the set would be available only as a set (this was stressed pretty clearly at the beginning). I definitely would not have bought the set if I knew that I could purchase individual volumes so soon. It's also a little disheartening to realize that a large number of the volumes are several years from availability. However, I'm not sure if I would say that I have been deceived. But I would say I feel a little foolish falling for all the hype.

NB.Mick

This is a new commentary set. Therefore, it needs as wide a distribution as possible in order to become accepted as a reputable scholarly resource.

I agree - however it seems, there's still some way to go. One aspect would be to see readers' review comments on the product pages (none) or at least some thoughts here. I'm not qualified for a review, but let me share my observations.

Being more interested in the NT than the OT commentaries, I looked up the pages for Phlm/Col and 1-3 John. The first one was obviously created when there was only Philemon as a standalone thing (?!) and it has no preview of the book. Logos should do their homework on this page.

The one on the Johannine Epistles allows for look-into - what shall I say, "I'm not really impressed" would be an understatement. This is the first text from the series that wants to be the heir to WBC and BECNT? Give me a break. E.g. the 250 word on genre read like a Clippings file, lining up various snippets taken from seemingly arbitrary sources with no discussion. The conclusion is not substantiated by an argument (for comparison: Kruse in Pillars has twice as much, despite being contrained by the pages on paper, and develops a well worded text).

Same later in the commentary on 1:1 - five or six alternative positions are cited (not explained) without a discussion. Reminds me of the SIL Exegetical Summaries with all the good bits left out. I wondered whether this was a student's assignment ("what positions are held regarding this text? Find a couple of quotes from something in the library, but no more than 200 words") rather than a technical and pastoral commentary that's out to become the showcase for evangelical exegesis in the twenty-first century.

Also, those who buy a volume are likely to come back and buy others, perhaps the entire set.

Hm. I really was willing to be persuaded. I like John's letters, I like to have a number of commentaries per book, I want to dig deeper into John's letters as a beginner in Greek.

Reading the look-into pages was a real disappointment for me.

The trick that publishers of dead-tree commentaries use is to have a real "bang!" as the first issue (sometimes they badge engineer an outstanding existing work into the first installment of the series just for this purpose), just for the purpose of raking in favorable comments, pushing it on Amazon and bestcommentaries.com, in the seminary journals and the ETS. We all know that and Logos knows it even better. The little bit I've seen from the NT volumes today on logos.com doesn't make me hold my breath for other volumes.

Maybe someone who owns these resources and has deeper insight into their value can come and readjust my perception.

David Ames

Daniel Bender wrote the following post at Today 1:19 PM: [8/15/2012]
I bought the set at a time when my finances were a little tight; I bought in because I really wanted to get it and thought that I would be saving myself some money by getting the early price. I was convinced that the set would be available only as a set (this was stressed pretty clearly at the beginning). I definitely would not have bought the set if I knew that I could purchase individual volumes so soon. It's also a little disheartening to realize that a large number of the volumes are several years from availability. However, I'm not sure if I would say that I have been deceived. But I would say I feel a little foolish falling for all the hype.
End Quote

The above quote sums up most of the comments on this thread.

Making the individual volumes available allowed me to get one that I wanted.
There are some others that I want. And will get them when available but will most likely will never get the set.

I am thankful that the individual volumes are available.

But I understand that we were told ‘set only’.

Yes, it would have been nice if those that bought the set with the understanding that that was the only way had been told of the change.

Alain Maashe

I bought the set at a time when my finances were a little tight; I bought in because I really wanted to get it and thought that I would be saving myself some money by getting the early price. I was convinced that the set would be available only as a set (this was stressed pretty clearly at the beginning). I definitely would not have bought the set if I knew that I could purchase individual volumes so soon. It's also a little disheartening to realize that a large number of the volumes are several years from availability. However, I'm not sure if I would say that I have been deceived. But I would say I feel a little foolish falling for all the hype.

The situation is even worse when you consider the discounts for the individual volumes in the academic program. I would have NEVER bought the set (even at the “best price” that I was given for jumping in early) if I knew they would be available individually at these prices (or available individually at all). I have to say that I feel somewhat cheated. It would have been a better deal for me to put the money in an interest bearing account and purchase volumes as they are published. I would have only spent $40.36 so far and the interest (calculated at 1%) I would have earned would have paid for more than 15% of the purchase. Most importantly, I would have been able to skip inferior or redundant volumes and save even more.
I am not complaining about the fact that commentaries did not quite live up to the hype because I knew going in that Logos could not possibly deliver on the lofty promises to write a series that would be the new standard discussed in all scholarly journals and able to satisfy both scholars and laypeople alike.
I am however not pleased that Logos did not find necessary to inform us individually (if they can call me to offer me new deals, they are surely able to update me about past purchases and changing situations).
I guess it is a case of live and learn and … never again

Eric Weiss

Seriously, folks, if you feel you were deceived (and there is some validity to that charge - i.e., that you responded to a repeated hard-sell promotion or sales pitch that Logos was making which now in light of the current situation appears to have been a misrepresentation of the offer), then call Logos Customer Service and request a complete refund on your EEC purchase and remove it from your resources. Has anyone who here feels they were deceived or tricked attempted to do that and been rebuffed by Customer Service (which would likely also be a valid ground for complaint)?

Phil Gons (Logos)

Thanks for all your feedback. For those of you who purchased the whole set and are concerned, you can rest assured that we intend to protect the value of your purchase. We are experimenting with offering individual volumes as a tool to get people into the whole set (and we're open to reevaluating that decision). However, individual volumes will be priced much higher. So buying the set on Pre-Pub will still have been the best value for getting this set.

Mark Smith

Phil, why exactly did Logos state clearly at the outset that the set would be available only as a whole, then go back on that without so much as a heads up or an explanation?

Phil Gons (Logos)

Phil, why exactly did Logos state clearly at the outset that the set would be available only as a whole, then go back on that without so much as a heads up or an explanation?

Mark, I'll need to review what was actually said. When I authorized offering the individual volumes, I didn't recall any kind of promise that was made that we'd never make them available individually (and apparently the others that I discussed it with didn't either). I'm not saying that's not the case, only that it wasn't done intentionally aware of conflicting promises. If you have them handy and can point me to them, I'd appreciate it. As I said, we're happy to reevaluate this decision, especially if it's in conflict with something we said originally.

I apologize in advance if we made a mistake. Things have been extra busy lately (my wife and I just welcomed our first son into the world: I'm typing this as he makes his cute little noises next to me ), and I may have made too hasty of a decision without all of the necessary pieces of data. We will do what's necessary to make things right.

TCBlack

I didn't recall any kind of promise that was made that we'd never make them available individually (and apparently the others that I discussed it with didn't either). I'm not saying that's not the case, only that it wasn't done intentionally aware of conflicting promises. If you have them handy and can point me to them, I'd appreciate it. As I said, we're happy to reevaluate this decision, especially if it's in conflict with something we said originally.

Fair enough Phil. Busy happens and I know decisions get made along the way in the midst of busy.

Since you asked; this is on the eec website (http://evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/order/):

The same wording was extant on the original order page. (Via the wayback machine you can find it.)

[quote]"The EEC is only available as a set. The commentaries are not available for individual purchase."

http://web.archive.org/web/20101106073723/http://www.logos.com/product/7565/evangelical-exegetical-commentary

Jonathan Pitts

I haven’t kept the emails, but the website says it is only available as a set:

http://evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/order/

I'm pretty sure we were told that it would remain only available as a set, but I don't have the evidence for that.

See my comments above. The change to selling individual volumes isn’t necessary a bad thing, but we would just like to have been told and given a reason before the change was made (and perhaps the option of a refund given to those who want it).

TCBlack

(my wife and I just welcomed our first son into the world: I'm typing this as he makes his cute little noises next to me )

My other comments are pending moderation.... but I just have to say...

Congratulations!

Enjoy the lack of sleep these next few months.

williamvarner

I am SO sorry to hear that some are disappointed and even feel a bit deceived. May the author of a soon to be released volume on James offer an opinion here?

I personally encouraged Logos to change their policy. I am sure it was not just me, but I do "bear some blame" if there is any! I am a professor and many of my students, past and present, bemoaned the fact that they simply could not afford the price of the whole set with their low pastoral salaries or their poverty as students. I also saw on the blogosphere many who complained about having to pony up a large amount for unseen goods. I also argued that giving some people the opportunity to check out one volume will help them to make their decision to purchase the whole set (and you will still save money). In that regard please read again Michael Childs' post from August 15.

I hope that the quality of the volumes will display both a real depth and balance between exegesis, Biblical theology, and practical-sermonic ideas. I worked hard at that!

I feel very bad that some have charged Logos with false advertising. That grieves me because I know these people to be highly ethical and committed to ministry, not to making money off the backs of their users as effectively as they can!

Tell you what. I believe so strongly in the quality of what the Logos authors are producing and because I was one of the big pushers to get them to change their policy, I will personally refund anything you pay for my commentary if you are unsatisfied with it. I can't make that promise regarding the others, but I am very confident that you will be as satisfied with them as well.

Believe me, you will win in the end with a purchase of the entire set or with purchasing one.

Dr William Varner The Master's College Author of James EEC

Alan Charles Gielczyk

I do not understand why some people feel deceived. The fact remains that early adopters still got the best deal. I personally am very happy to buy the volumes individually because I could not justify the initial output. I understand some maybe would not have purchased the entire set if they knew the individual volumes would be released so soon but I would suggest a CS call. Logos is a great company and I am happy these volumes are on sale. Please Logos do not stop releasing the individual volumes. Things change and I wish I could have gotten in on the early deal some here are lamenting now but don't take away my access to these commentaries!

Eric Weiss

IMO, even if there may be reason to believe or feel that Logos hasn't been totally upright in this - and I think the default understanding of the original promo language for most persons would be that it would always (not just "at this time" or "for now") only be available as a set, though I can now see how it could be argued that Logos hasn't in fact gone back on their word (so to speak) by now offering single volumes - I think the decision to sell individual volumes is a good one for the reasons given, and I also don't regret having bought the set for $700.

Andy

I am SO sorry to hear that some are disappointed and even feel a bit deceived.

Dear Dr Varner,

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. For my part, you have nothing to apologise for whatsoever. I fully understand your position and appreciate your insight into the situation of those who do not have the funds to purchase the set. My sole issue pertains to how the set was originally marketed. I fully accept that this issue, even as it is, is not the biggest deal in the world.

I would also like to add that I greatly look forward to the publication of your volume on James.

Thank you once again,

Andy

DMB

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but the comments by Dr Varner are the best I've read in my (few) years on the forum.

I'm very much impressed. His students are very lucky (and us, to read his work).

DMB

Looks like it's deja vu with Paul's post. The 3 are top of the new products (even newer than the NT Greek apocrypha and the Wesley breakout).