Jesus Realizes...That The Apostles Are Still Sinners!!!
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Peter Lever said:
"John 16:7 will not come to you Jesus realizes that it is time for His disciples to carry on His work. The disciples could not have God’s presence dwell in them while still sinners—He needed to die for that to be so.
Next canard to be dealt with...all humans are NOT sinners. The Bible doesn't not say any such thing. According to Scripture, a sinner is one who PRACTICES sin...in precisely the way someone might practice basketball, juggling, or any other activity. Anyone who PRACTICES righteousness IS righteous. Again, such a person will be actively and repetitively performing righteousness.
Contrary to virtually all Christian theological thought, NOTHING in the OT says a person who commits a single sin is perceived to be a sinful person, as long as the person responds to the recognition of the sin by humbly offering in repentance the proscribed sacrifice.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Peter Lever said:
Barry, J. D., Grigoni, M. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Jn 16:7). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software."
Last canard to be dealt with...with regard to Jn. 16:7: Yeishuu`a is not making some vast and profound theological pronouncement here. He is instead making a very pedestrian statement of simple fact. His comment is a simple acknowledgment of the fundamental thread of the moh`:adhiym. Passover comes before Pentecost. The only way to get to Pentecost is through Passover. That's all He's saying here. There is no trinitarian dogma attached to this statement whatsoever.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
[...]
Romans 3:23 (NET1)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:10 (NET1)
10 just as it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one,DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
Romans 3:23 (NET1)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:10 (NET1)
10 just as it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one,[Y]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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The very fact everybody is having a theological discussion in the Logos forum is proof tht there are no righteous posters. [6]
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That's due to the hand-writing on the wall.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Super Tramp said:
The very fact everybody is having a theological discussion in the Logos forum is proof tht there are no righteous posters.
Are you feeling left out? Besides the fact that the "theological discussion" you speak of is not really a discussion about theology at all, at least not from what I am reading.
[*-)]
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Paul Golder said:Room4more said:
Romans 3:23 (NET1)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:10 (NET1)
10 just as it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one,
Ezek. 13:22
Canard explosion time...
Ok, guys...Re: Rom. 3:23. Yes...that is true, but that is NOT DEFINITIVE of what it means to be A SINNER as far as Tanakh is concerned. Nor is it definitive in the Gospels. Simply having sinned in one's lifetime doesn't make you A SINNER according to scripture. The difference is pretty simple to see and has rather significant import. A SINNER is one who has no desire to keep Tohraah at all...he or she refuses to do so for any number of reasons. Just for the sake of clarity, the Jews (meaning practicers of Judaism) don't keep Tohraah. They keep Mishnah & Talmud & other rabbinic writings (all of which by their own definition are "adding to and taking away from the law" cf. Deut. 4:2; 12:42) that are quasi-related to Tohraah. According to Tohraah, a righteous person is one who keeps Tohraah. When such a person sins, he or she presents the required sacrifice with a humble and repentant heart. That obedient act, itself in accord with Tohraah, brings peace...temporarily. The animal doesn't remove the sin...only Yeishuu`a's blood can do that. But the action of reconforming to Tohraah by obdiently providing the required sacrifice is all that is required of the righteous person who sins...according to Tohraah and according to YHWH. The person who sins and provides the required sacrifice was considered RIGHTEOUS according to Tohraah and YHWH.
So, yes...all have fallen short of the glory of God...but there is NOTHING--ABSOLUTELY NOTHING--in TaNaKh that says all such people are considered sinners. Only the ones who have not attempted in legitimate faithfulness to keep Tohraah are considered SINNERS (i.e. are in danger of destruction for their actions). In other words, quoting Rom. 3:23 doesn't prove what those who quote it intend it to prove.
Re: Rom. 3:10. I'm quite glad you chose to quote the NET Bible...and since you did, I'm going to quote the NET Bible note for Eccl. 7:20.
The term “truly” does not appear in the Hebrew text, but is supplied in the translation for clarity. Qoheleth does not deny the existence of some people who are relatively righteous. The NET Bible (Ec 7:20). (2006). Biblical Studies Press.
Specifically, Eccl. 8:14 & Eccl. 9:1. This is the NET version of verse 20: 7:20 For there is not one truly righteous person on the earth who continually does good and never sins.
Though you may never have considered it before, the sheer fact of the matter is this verse DOES NOT say there are no righteous humans--it simply says there are no righteous people who never sin...key word being "never". But that simply takes us back to my comments on Rom. 3:23--NOTHING in Tohraah or TaNaKh suggests that a person must be absolutely without sin to be considered righteous (Prov. 24:16, Ezek. 18:21-22, 27; Ezek. 33:14-16, 19; 1 Jn. 1:9--this verse was true from the beginning, but accomplished by the cross)...one must only be a practitioner of righteousness to be considered righteous in YHWH's sight. In other words, one must practice Tohraah.
None righteous?? Then consider: Gen. 6:9 (first use of "righteous" in Scripture); Gen. 7:1; Gen. 18:19; 2 Sam. 8:15; 2 Sam. 22:21, 25; 1 Chr. 18:14; Psa. 18:20, 24; Psa. 32:11; Psa. 33:1; Psa. 34:15, 17; Psa. 97:12; Psa. 106:3; Psa. 119:121; Psa. 146:8; Prov. 12:5; Isa. 1:21 (referring to 2 Sam. 8:15 & 1 Chr. 18:14); Isa. 3:10; Ezek. 14:14, 20; Ezek. 18:5-9; Hos. 14:9; Mt. 21:32; Mt. 23:29; Mt. 23:35, Mt. 25:37, 46; Mk. 6:20; Lk. 1:5-6; Lk. 1:73-75; Lk. 2:25; Lk. 23: 50; Acts 10:22; Rom. 10:5; Heb. 11:4; Heb. 12:11; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Pet. 2:5-8; 1 Jn. 2:29, 1 Jn. 3:7, 10; 1 Jn. 3:12; Rev. 19:8; Rev. 22:11. I could have easily quadrupled this list, and then quadrupled it again.
So, considering the above verses, "there is none righteous, no not one" is shown to not be true...unless the Bible lies. Then what about the two verses that are most often considered to be the source of Paul's Rom. 3:10 quote? Hmmmm...yes. Psa. 14:1-3 & Psa. 53:1-3...when I read these passages, it always makes me wonder if people ever stop to consider and examine their Sunday school, knee-jerk reactions. To properly comprehend these two passages, one must consider the context. To whom is David referring his comments? In case you've overlooked it, check the first two words in each Psalm...that is your context. There are no righteous FOOLS...no not one. How can we know these verses are limited in this way? THE NEXT TWO VERSES SAY SO!! Psa. 14:4-5 tells us explicitly...the wicked fools who "do not call upon YHWH" are in dread because "God is with the RIGHTEOUS generation"!!!! How can there truly be NONE righteous if YHWH is WITH righteous people??? DOH!!! [:O]
Okay. So now we must examine the one verse that seems to say that no person is righteous...Psa. 143:2. No doubt, it sounds that way...BUT...and this is a major "but"...there is a massive field of blue about two inches above that testifies otherwise. Does that mean that the blue storm above is wrong? No. Does that mean that Psa. 143:2 is wrong. No. But it does present us a paradox...one which can only be resolved by adjusting OUR perception of what is being said, because clearly what YHWH has inspired in His word doesn't allow us to take things in Psa. 143:2 as we might on first blush. Why adjust Psa. 143:2 and not the hundreds of other verses that seemingly speak against it? Frankly, that ought to be self-evident...but 100-to-1 (ultra-conservatively determined) should be your hint.
Now...what could YHWH potentially mean in Psa. 143:2? I think something very much like a combination of Eccl. 7:20 & Rom. 3:23--in other words, no one is perfect. What a surprise! [:O] Meh, not so much. Why not? Because He knows that we are but flesh (Psa. 78:39, Psa 103:14 in context w Psa. 103:6-18) and that He made us that way (Job 10:9) out of fabric that CANNOT serve him (Rom. 8:6-8). All He requires is that we deny the fabric of our existence and by His Spirit, His Word, His Tohraah, pursue righteousness (Mt. 5:48). HE KNOWS THAT ALL WE CAN DO WHILE IN THE FLESH IS STRIVE AGAINST OURSELVES...BUT THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT & ALL HE WANTS (1 Jn. 3:10, 1 Jn. 2:29). What is righteousness? (Deut. 6:25; Isa. 42:21). In other words, don't be lawless, because if you are...you are a disciple of the Man of Lawlessness.
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David Paul said:
Canard explosion time...
Ok, guys...Re: Rom. 3:23. Yes...that is true, but that is NOT DEFINITIVE of what it means to be A SINNER as far as Tanakh is concerned. Nor is it definitive in the Gospels. Simply having sinned in one's lifetime doesn't make you A SINNER according to scripture. [...]
Fortunately, I only need one verse of Scripture to point you in the right direction, and also disproves your opening:
James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.”
[I suggest reading the whole of the chapter to get the full meaning of the verse.]
That should be enough for now…..
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I'm very curious what makes theological debate so irresistible. Is it because we don't get enough time in a bully pulpit? Is it spawned from a desire to control others? Or do we have such a lawless nature we must break any rule others set up governing our conduct?
If we are honest with ourselves we must admit throwing sand in each other's eyes never caused the other guy to "see it my way." The great struggles of theology were never settled in the sandbox. Do we fancy ourselves wiser than those who debated these issues with more dignity?
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Super Tramp said:
I'm very curious what makes theological debate so irresistible
talking to myself here : Do you really think your previous post is gonna help? [:O]
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Room4more said:David Paul said:
Canard explosion time...
Ok, guys...Re: Rom. 3:23. Yes...that is true, but that is NOT DEFINITIVE of what it means to be A SINNER as far as Tanakh is concerned. Nor is it definitive in the Gospels. Simply having sinned in one's lifetime doesn't make you A SINNER according to scripture. [...]
Fortunately, I only need one verse of Scripture to point you in the right direction, and also disproves your opening:
James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.”
[I suggest reading the whole of the chapter to get the full meaning of the verse.]
That should be enough for now…..
Hardly. You are again...and perhaps always will be...ignoring the Bible's own definitions.
A person's heart as it pertains to obedience to YHWH is pivotal. If the person is CHOOSING not to do the good (rather than simply overlooking what he ought to know), such is a willful disobedience that results in death. But the person who overlooks doing the good (and thus sins) but then recognizes his fault and repents and then does the good, is righteous. Ezek. 13, 18, 33.
Oh, yeah...WHAT is "good"?? Rom. 7:12, 16; 1 Tim. 8:1 (you may have to look this one up, since RefTag is showing wrong verse); Deut. 6:18, Deut. 10:13; Deut. 12:28.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:Room4more said:David Paul said:
Canard explosion time...
Ok, guys...Re: Rom. 3:23. Yes...that is true, but that is NOT DEFINITIVE of what it means to be A SINNER as far as Tanakh is concerned. Nor is it definitive in the Gospels. Simply having sinned in one's lifetime doesn't make you A SINNER according to scripture. [...]
Fortunately, I only need one verse of Scripture to point you in the right direction, and also disproves your opening:
James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.”
[I suggest reading the whole of the chapter to get the full meaning of the verse.]
That should be enough for now…..
Hardly. You are again...and perhaps always will be...ignoring the Bible's own definitions.
A person's heart as it pertains to obedience to YHWH is pivotal. If the person is CHOOSING not to do the good (rather than simply overlooking what he ought to know), such is a willful disobedience that results in death. But the person who overlooks doing the good (and thus sins) but then recognizes his fault and repents and then does the good, is righteous. Ezek. 13, 18, 33.
Oh, yeah...WHAT is "good"?? Rom. 7:12, 16; 1 Tim. 8:1 (you may have to look this one up, since RefTag is showing wrong verse); Deut. 6:18, Deut. 10:13; Deut. 12:28.
I only have a few minutes, but just in passing, I believe that you are confusing the OLD Covenant with the NEW covenant.
This is not as far fetched a practice as it may seem, I have read and heard of this happening quite frequently…….
We today are under the NEW Covenant, thus we are still sinners [or as some state: A sinner Saved by Grace] cleansed of such by the Blood of Christ, yet, according to Scripture and still by the NEW Covenant, if we – James 4.
There is a comparative difference in the two Covenants…..
But, that can be another discussion, lets get back to the OP……
What is your take on the matter?
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Room4more said:
But, that can be another discussion, lets get back to the OP……
What is your take on the matter?Honestly, the OP quote (and I am assuming it is a quote due to the FSB reference that appears underneath it) is so poorly worded that I can hardly make heads or tails out of it...especially the first sentence. The second sentence, in keeping with my earlier elucidation of what it means to be a Sinner, is false. The apostles were not Sinners. Even Peter's self-assessment that he was a sinful man didn't make him a Sinner. Even his denial of Yeishuu`a, of which he repented with tears, did not make him a Sinner. NO Sinners will be in the kingdom...Peter will be. He and the other apostles were not Sinners because they were dedicated to obedience to YHWH/Yeishuu`a and Tohraah. Prov. 24:16 They were righteous because they practiced Tohraah, just like Yeishuua did. 1 Jn. 3:7
The statement "The disciples could not have God’s presence dwell in them while still sinners—He needed to die for that to be so" is absurd on its face. It relies on at least 3-4 (and probably more) assumption-conclusion sets that are entirely false.
There is nothing about the effects of the crucifixion that is time-bound. The crucifixion itself was necessarily time-bound, but Yeishuu`a Himself was considerd "slain from the foundation of the world". All assertions that something changed when He died are false. YHWH recognizes things that are not as though they are, and that is most true regarding the effects of the cross.
The notion that the Spirit was not present before Shaabhu`ohtth (Pentecost) is nonsense. The disciples healed people and cast out demons by the power of the Spirit before both the Cross and Pentecost.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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16:7 to you Jesus is looking ahead to the time when His disciples will carry on His work. When Jesus has gone, the Spirit will then become their advocate (see note on 14:26).
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Thanks Logos for the fix!
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