Logos 5..."must haves".
Comments
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I suppose I don't know what tagging is capable of (or favorites, which has now been brought up) either. That is primarily because L4 gets so little use from me since I have to use L3 for other reasons. I don't devote a lot of time to trying to learn a program (especially one with a steeeeeep learning curve, like L4) when I don't use it very often.
What I like about folders is the collapsible tree function. I can theoretically reduce the thousands of lines in my Library to about a dozen or so. This is something that is very important to me. I don't think tags can accomplish this. If tags (or favorites) can do this or something like it...and it satisfies my visual organization needs, fine. But one additional visual org thing I request is ORDERED SETS. It really irks me that L4 orders sets alphabetically when they should be ordered BY ORDER. That is, when they are ordered at all. I had sets, such as the Sheffield collection, that were scattered throughout my Library by alphabetical Bible-book name. Ridiculous.
Yes, the feature that you suggest Tags is capable of, Denise, of being able to sort a single resource in multiple ways (folders) is helpful and desirable. Frankly, I don't see why this can't be done with folders. Again, like I said in the OP, I'm not asking for this feature to represent physical location on the disk, or even on a virtual library shelf. I just want my Library titles to be subject to my organizational preferences. It should be relatively easy to have a right-click menu feature that allows a person to drag a phantom copy of a resource to a second, third, or tenth folder. It would only be there for logical reasons (the logic of the owner of the library).
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Philana Crouch said:
Can't this currently be done in favorites? I drag searches, reports, documents in Favorites all the time.
Apparently not. I just looked at Favorites in L4. I noticed that I had a couple of folders there which I had created at Mo Proctor's first Camp Logos for L4.
While I'm on the subject, that was where I learned that L4 was essentially worthless to me as a daily workhorse. Huge, HUGE disappointment...and consequently some of the worst money I've ever spent in my life. Imagine paying $3-400 including travel to find out something is worthless to you. [:(] & [:@] I thought about asking for a refund, but then they handed out the blue t-shirts with the massive 4 on the chest. Funny, no one has ever seen that huge 4 and said to me, "Ah, four. That must be a reference to Logos Bible Software's version 4!" On the other hand, I have been asked if I am Mr. Fantastic. But, come to think of it, that's really nothing new. [A] lol
What I see in Favorites is a single folder option--no subfolders. So no, that doesn't work.
*Just an observation...my Favorites menu in IE does have subfolders.
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David Paul said:Philana Crouch said:
Can't this currently be done in favorites? I drag searches, reports, documents in Favorites all the time.
Apparently not. I just looked at Favorites in L4. I noticed that I had a couple of folders there which I had created at Mo Proctor's first Camp Logos for L4. (While I'm on the subject, that was where I learned that L4 was essentially worthless to me as a daily workhorse. Huge, HUGE disappointment...and consequently some of the worst money I've ever spent in my life. Imagine paying $2-300 to find out something is worthless to you.
& 
) What I see in Favorites is a single folder option--no subfolders. So no, that doesn't work.*Just an observation...my Favorites menu in IE does have subfolders.
You didn't waste $2-300 on L4. You bought the resources; the engine is always free. If you wasted any money, it's because you bought resources you have no use for. If you don't like L4, use them in L3 (assuming you bought them before they quit making them compatible with L3).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
You didn't waste $2-300 on L4. You bought the resources; the engine is always free. If you wasted any money, it's because you bought resources you have no use for. If you don't like L4, use them in L3 (assuming you bought them before they quit making them compatible with L3).
I've edited the post since...but I was referring to the cost of Camp Logos, not the upgrade. On that point, you are correct. I love Portfolio, and Logos in general (thanks to L3).
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David Paul said:Philana Crouch said:
Can't this currently be done in favorites? I drag searches, reports, documents in Favorites all the time.
Apparently not. I just looked at Favorites in L4. I noticed that I had a couple of folders there which I had created at Mo Proctor's first Camp Logos for L4.
While I'm on the subject, that was where I learned that L4 was essentially worthless to me as a daily workhorse. Huge, HUGE disappointment...and consequently some of the worst money I've ever spent in my life. Imagine paying $3-400 including travel to find out something is worthless to you.
& I thought about asking for a refund, but then they handed out the blue t-shirts with the massive 4 on the chest. Funny, no one has ever seen that huge 4 and said to me, "Ah, four. That must be a reference to Logos Bible Software's version 4!" On the other hand, I have been asked if I am Mr. Fantastic. But, come to think of it, that's really nothing new. 
lolWhat I see in Favorites is a single folder option--no subfolders. So no, that doesn't work.
*Just an observation...my Favorites menu in IE does have subfolders.
Yes you can create sub folders in favorites
I created a book folder and then added chapters sub folders and dragged my commentaries on that chapter to the folder.
EDIT:
I also checked the mobile app and these sub folders can be accessed there as well.
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Philana ... are you suggesting people drag their whole library into Favorites? I'd assume this would obviate the connected functionality within 'Library'.
Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting 'Folders' ... just surmising that Logos sees 'Tags' as the solution.
This morning's back-and-forth decision was whether to kill Logos4 this month or next. After this weekend's forum hocus-pocus behavior, I'm pulling my CC (and presumably my account). I'm not convinced Logos still has the internal discipline to manage everything on its plate (or for that matter, cares).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Philana ... are you suggesting people drag their whole library into Favorites? I'd assume this would obviate the connected functionality within 'Library'.
Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting 'Folders' ... just surmising that Logos sees 'Tags' as the solution.
No I am not suggesting that at all. But if using folders within the library would we be dragging our entire library into those folders? If the purpose is to create a folder with resources, or say favorite dictionaries or systematic theologies, a folder could be created in favorites. If the purpose is to have a grouping by topic or resource type then tagging should work. What purpose would folders serve that tagging does not, combined with using favorites. Tagging allows for the searching of the library.
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Well, C++ is a tough programming language but gives more possibilities than most other programming languages. (I've tried lear ning C++ years ago.)
When it comes to speed issues, Logos might want to try out the bigFORTH programming language, it's a programming language especially designed for multitasking speed, it's several times faster - of course there are a lot of limitations as to what You can do with it.
I think that it's a marketing issue. Logos should change their storefront to display a few more examples of how You can combine purchases and improve the Essential Reference Bundle (38 vols.) a lot with a lot of new items (also items that are not (yet) available in Logos) and remove a Bible dictionary/Encyclopedia (I would not like to have many of them) from it. They should provide a more easily accessible list of which Bible versions are available in the main product L4/L5 for desktop use.
They should point out more clearly that You can for example search for Greek words - which You can't in for example E-Sword.
For a dictionary/an encyclopedia I'll just use the ones in OLL + the end-of-2011 Oxford Encyclopedia of the Books of the Bible (not available in Logos). I'm more concerned about how and if I'll use parts of the Bible, than knowledge from ordinary dictionaries/encyclopedias as I'll get enough basic training in Bible research, theology and history of especially Anabaptism, for a lay person.DMB said:This morning's back-and-forth decision was whether to kill Logos4 this month or next. After this weekend's forum hocus-pocus behavior, I'm pulling my CC (and presumably my account). I'm not convinced Logos still has the internal discipline to manage everything on its plate (or for that matter, cares).
I may not represent the core customer target group of Logos, but I'm a pretty typical student, interested in 2nd century Gnosticism (and a little bit of second temple period Judaism - which I haven't explored much yet other than 4 Ezra) also.
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George Somsel said:
I still insist that we need a weights and measures coverter such as in L3—even though Bob doesn't want to do it. DO IT ANYWAY !!!!
Really, George? Is this the same George that hates interlinears? You should not need weights and measures converters. You should take the time to learn about the weights and measures in Scripture without conversions [;)]. (Oh, did I mention that I am a retired mathematics teacher so weights and measures were part of my field of study?)
Soli Deo Gloria,
Randy
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Randall Cue said:George Somsel said:
I still insist that we need a weights and measures coverter such as in L3—even though Bob doesn't want to do it. DO IT ANYWAY !!!!
Really, George? Is this the same George that hates interlinears? You should not need weights and measures converters. You should take the time to learn about the weights and measures in Scripture without conversions
. (Oh, did I mention that I am a retired mathematics teacher so weights and measures were part of my field of study?)Soli Deo Gloria,
Randy
That would require either doing the research for each conversion or maintaining a table of multipliers to convert the biblical figures. I hardly think that is equivalent to not using an interlinear. Did I ever mention that I'm quite adept at mathematics? I once studied electronics which required algebra, triginometry and calculus.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I'm not as well-versed with tagging or favorites as I should be, but it really doesn't seem to provide quite what I'm looking for. You're still talking from what seems to me a "search" perspective. I'm not trying to "search" for a resource. I'm trying to a.) DISCOVER a resource I might not have thought of using (or that I might not have "tagged" a certain way), by simply BROWSING, and b) simply being able to "see" the broader scope of my library and what might be available/useful/interesting there in a more natural way.
There's a lot of value that can be found in a bricks and mortar library by simply getting away from the computer card catalogue (and the searches you are typing into it), and just walking back into the stacks and browsing what's there. When I had a hard copy library, and I was looking to explore different angles about something I was preaching or teaching about, it was often very helpful just to simply go to my bookshelves (which filled a couple of rooms) and just browse my shelves. I often found lots of things that I wouldn't have thought of otherwise (and in the process found some books I had totally forgot that I owned that I would like to read later).
I guess what I am talking about is being able to rearrange the library listing/display, so that instead of an alphabetical listing of 6,000 titles, I would have a listing of folders and subfolders (in an order that I chose) into which my books would be organized and located. Maybe along the lines of a topical system, or a dewey decimal system, or whatever. There would be as many ways to "arrange" this as there are Logos users, I'm sure, and no one "right" way. It is a VERY subjective, individualized thing (that's why it seems to me that a "pre-set" wouldn't be all that helpful. Everyone organizes their thoughts so differently, I doubt that a pre-set would be all that useful to that many people. How I organize things is going to be very different than anyone else does, and vice versa). I currently have developed a similar system under collections. But that's more cumbersome (and I have to say, really rather complex and a pain to set up... it could have been accomplished so much easier with file folders and subfolders in the library), andit still really isn't available "at a glance"... like I would have my books arranged on a physical shelf. Someone else might choose to use those folders differently. I don't know if it is very difficult or not, but it just would seem to be very helpful if the user could organize his library list in whatever way he chose. It's far too unweildy as it stands, once you get past a certain number of resources. So much so, that I NEVER use the pull down library list anymore.
As another thought... I have TONS of resources I've never read. Let's say I've got some time to kill by curling up with a good read. Maybe I don't have something specific in mind. I want to simply be able to "browse my stacks" and see what I might notice that I haven't read that suddenly seems like it might be interesting to check out. How do I find such a title now? Search for it? If I don't know what I'm looking for or "hungry" for at the moment (if you ever go to the fridge at midnight, you know what I mean), searching isn't going to help much. Nor is tagging. Favorites? That works only if I've already become familiar with it, or read it, or marked it as a favorite. As far as I can tell right now, my option is simply to manually scroll through a list of 6,000 titles. Which means that there's gonna be a lot of interesting, tasty goodies in the second half of the alphabet that I'm never even gonna see. That's awfully cumbersome (especially when you have Perseus and Dead Sea Scroll texts and targums and who knows what else to wade through when you're just looking to uncover a good read that you aren't all that familiar with or have forgotten... or maybe never even had a clue that you had). Maybe there is another existing way to do this, but I haven't really found out how to do so.
So, is there anything in how the library is set up that would be wrecked if Logos simply set up a system so that users could arrange their libraries in the ways that suited them best?
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Yes! Folders and Sub-folders in the Library! What an idea! Individually searchable or globally searchable! Yes!
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EmileB said:
So, is there anything in how the library is set up that would be wrecked if Logos simply set up a system so that users could arrange their libraries in the ways that suited them best?
I might be wrong by what I hear in your post is calling for the integration of Collections to the main Library browser. It would open so many possibilities. If we can have a collections button on the top of the Library window, that would work very well IMHO.
Bohuslav
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Regarding weights and measures, I can't tell you how often I've been in a situation, needing to leave to teach a class in a half hour (more likely 15 minutes), and after reviewing my notes, needed to do a quick check on a unit or measurement in anticipation that someone might ask (and yes, my students do). But I no longer have my weights and measures calculator. Okay, gotta do some quick research. Only to find that I'm told by the author where I found the unit referenced that a "talent" is equal to so many pounds sterling... or a "denarius" is equal to x number of British shillings.... back in 1854... Now THAT's helpful... so I have to dig into another resource... and another... and another... and convert what they say into something useful.... Lots and lots of time wasted. Meanwhile, the printer is jamming... someone is calling me on the cellphone... my daughter is asking me for something..... you get the picture.
The tool was already programmed. How hard can it be to put it back in for those of us who found it useful? (And yes, I understand Bob's reasoning that from his perspective it wasn't all that accurate in some ways. But its a life saver in a pinch. Okay, maybe not a LIFE saver, but awfully useful).
And I also find my eyes glazing over when it comes to math. Nice to have something to verify my calculations.
PS. Please don't post to tell me what a talent or pound is. I know what these are.... I just was trying to throw out something from the top of my head,a nd its REALLY late here, and I have a headache. But really, I run into this kind of thing all the time, with weights, distances, money and other sorts of measurements.
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As far as notes go, I know this is a really big deal for a lot of folks. It doesn't affect me because I do my notes in a separate window in Word. I don't write in my hard copy Bible either, and I wouldn't have enough space if I did. To me, it does seem kind of beyond Logos' function to create its own word processor. But I was just wondering... maybe most wouldn't care for this... but what if you could create a note in Logos that simply "links" to an outside file? Like for a particular verse, you could have a file in Word, structured however you like... and for that verse, you have a note in Logos that says "cf. note xyz123" (or whatever system you would choose to create), and when you click on that, it takes you to that note file... outside of Logos... in your note-taking program of choice.
a). Would that be helpful?
b) would it eliminate your frustration with how Logos notes works (or doesn't work) now?
c) would this eliminate people's concerns about "uploading" their notes to Logos servers (a frequent objection, it seems), or future potential incompatability with Logos 9 one day (like Logos 3 users have complained about with Logos 4)?
d) Is this even feasible technically?
e) or (embarassing question)... is this something you can already do in Logos???
Please forgive my ignorance of notes in Logos, your concerns, or what is technologically feasible.
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:EmileB said:
So, is there anything in how the library is set up that would be wrecked if Logos simply set up a system so that users could arrange their libraries in the ways that suited them best?
I might be wrong by what I hear in your post is calling for the integration of Collections to the main Library browser. It would open so many possibilities. If we can have a collections button on the top of the Library window, that would work very well IMHO.
I see how that could be valuable for some folks... but it seems that it still doesn't quite address what I'm envisioning. That would only work if I have put every single book in my library into a "collection"... and how I structure those collections may be different than what I would do with a set of folders. Plus, setting up the collections would be significantly more time consuming than being able to simply create folders and subfolders in my library.
Is it that hard to have an option in preferences for the library browser "Alphabetical View" and "Folder View", and then to allow the user to create his own folders and subfolders for his library? (That would also address some issues taht some people have with the "hide resources" option, which seems awkward. Just don't put a resource you don't want to see in a folder.)
I suppose you could also then define your searches to be limited to those items in your folders, or to your entire resource list. They may be one and the same for most people, or maybe not. But again, searching isn't really my intent. Its browsing.
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What you are suggesting sounds suspiciously like the old library system in L3 which I found to be one of the least desirable parts of the program.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George, I only very vaguely remember the library system in L3, and if I recall correctly, I agree with you 100%. I'd not want it to be like that. Just an option to choose what currently exists, or a user-developed folder/subfolder system. Then, if one had a complaint about the folder system one set up... well, one would have only oneself to blame. No pre-sets for me, please!
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I really hate disagreeing with George, but he's probably representative of 99.9% of Logos users on this.
I keep my library in both Libronix and Logos4 and routinely use the libronix library for 1 reason: it's wild card is automatic. Since I know most of the titles, I can quickly find it. Nothing like simplicity.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
I really hate disagreeing with George, but he's probably representative of 99.9% of Logos users on this.
I keep my library in both Libronix and Logos4 and routinely use the libronix library for 1 reason: it's wild card is automatic. Since I know most of the titles, I can quickly find it. Nothing like simplicity.
How are you disagreeing with me?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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In L3, My Library has 3 radial buttons at the top to choose the method of searching the Library: 1) Author 2) Title 3) Subject plus 4) All. Whichever you choose produces a branching folder and subfolders menu (based on Logos's pre-designed design). I want something similar but the ability to put things where I choose. If I put ABC resource is 7 folders and subfolders, it shouldn't affect anything...I still just have one copy of that resource that gets included in the folders that I deem it should be in for reasons that are my own.
Denise asked if we should drag our whole Libraries into Favorites. Well, while that clearly isn't the purpose of Favorites, I'm not using Favorites now anyway, so if it indeed can create subfolders (and while Philana says it can, I don't at present know how to make it happen) I would be inclined to give it a try. Of course, with L5 in the future, and me not using L4 that much, I won't do my whole Library...but I do want to see if this will do what I am asking and needing.
So, Philana, what exactly do you do to make a subfolder? Oh, nevermind...I found the wiki on favorites. [:)]
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WOW. Thanks, Philana...that does, at first blush, seem to be very close to what I am looking for. Now some suggestions/requests. I actually might decide to use Favorites for...well, Favorites, at least at some point. So THIS IS MY REQUEST, LOGOS!!! Make a copy of Favorites and embed it in the Library--let's call it My Library. It occurs to me that there has to be a source from which I gather My Library into its order...that would obviously be the Library. (Pure genius, I know. [8-|]) Have the Library/My Library window display either Library, My Library, or Both depending on which radial button is clicked on. Have them be side-by-side when both display...that would allow dragging and dropping from Library into My Library. I may add additional requests to this but this simple addition would probably SOLVE the visual maintenance requests that I and others have longed for.
Also, I notice that the current way books in Perseus are listed creates a (2) for the same title that is translated by a different author. It would certainly help if the books that fall into this category were listed out-of-the-box as Latinus Titelus-Jones & Latinus Titelus-Smith so that I and everyone else who decides to tame the Perseus Beast don't have to stop and add the translators name to the title by hand. See my comments about pre-sets above (OP)--same logic applied.
If only someone had pointed this out when I asked for this back in 2009 rather than telling me to shut up and go away, I might not have been in this purple funk of ambivalence toward Logos all this time.
PLEASE INCLUDE THIS FEATURE IN L5!!! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!
Thank you. [Y]
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George Somsel said:Randall Cue said:George Somsel said:
I still insist that we need a weights and measures coverter such as in L3—even though Bob doesn't want to do it. DO IT ANYWAY !!!!
Really, George? Is this the same George that hates interlinears? You should not need weights and measures converters. You should take the time to learn about the weights and measures in Scripture without conversions
. (Oh, did I mention that I am a retired mathematics teacher so weights and measures were part of my field of study?)Soli Deo Gloria,
Randy
That would require either doing the research for each conversion or maintaining a table of multipliers to convert the biblical figures. I hardly think that is equivalent to not using an interlinear. Did I ever mention that I'm quite adept at mathematics? I once studied electronics which required algebra, triginometry and calculus.
You took that seriously? Wow.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Randy
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On Oct. 8 You wrote:
<-- First I also tought that folders would be needed in L5, but as I got excited during the night about career planning (metal engineering - although today one teacher said that the high-school-level-grades entry requirements to apply and get to start may be difficult (complicated story but I'm in "Folkhögskola" and the quota for students coming from Folkhögskola are nowadays too small) and occasional Anabaptist sermon prep) and couldn't sleep, I started tagging my resources. It took just 2½ hours (OLL, Catholic Foundations Library, Hermeneia & Continental commentaries and a few individual items).David Paul said:I just want my Library titles to be subject to my organizational preferences.
I'm satisfied with the depth of the system into witch I organized my resources. I even had time to count approximately how many titles I have as I've been suspecting that the Libraries are not as advertized.
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How many of you would prefer someone to come into your personal, "dead tree" book library and organize it for you? Not many I'm sure.
How many would of you would prefer to visually organize your library on your own shelves (folder concept) - or, use a set of codes (tags) to abstractly organize your library without visual cues?
To me the latter, "tag" concept is yet another symptom of an engineering mentality that unfortunately seems to dominate software design at Logos.
We are dealing with an exceedingly new medium for reading and learning "books" or texts - one that is characterized by a high degree of abstraction already. Why reinforce this difficulty with still more abstraction? What people are asking for, essentially ( or at least I am) is a way to root these abstractions into something spatial and visual; which is a way of making them "mine," and of creating a digital environment that I feel comfortable in, one that evolves with me. This is not only important for organization, it is intimately connected with memory and learning. Visual and spatial cues take advantage of what Coleridge called the "hooks and eyes" of memory. Said another way...
"Scientists theorize another factor, spatial context, is also particularly important when dealing with memorization. In his blog, neuroscientist Mark Changizi explains that "in nature, information comes with a physical address [and often a temporal one], and one can navigate to and from the address. Those raspberry patches we found last year are over the hill and through the woods -- and they are still over the hill and through the woods."
For millions of years before the Internet, "the mechanisms for information storage were largely spatial and could be navigated, thereby tapping into our innate navigation capabilities. Our libraries and books -- the real ones, not today's electronic variety -- were supremely navigable."
In other words, the human brain uses location to recall the words it reads, which helps reinforce the information. To trigger a memory, the brain might recall whether it read the information at the top, middle, or bottom of the page, remember a corresponding picture on the page, or even a page number -- essentially creating a mental bookmark to cue recall of the information."
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“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Well users have to one way or another invest some hours into organizing the books - everyone is their own librarian. If You spend to little time organizing and have a lot of books (which most have) You end up with a mess or have to always rely on just searches.
One way of visualizing, is talking about the books on for example Christianforums.com. That's what I do. I remember fairly well what I've said and where on the forums. This is just me, might be different for others.
Like I've suggested, I'd like to see Bibles that are not in Logos, as options to prioritize with advanced prioritation settings. Most things in Logos revolve around Bibles.
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Mr. Micawber said:
In other words, the human brain uses location to recall the words it reads, which helps reinforce the information. To trigger a memory, the brain might recall whether it read the information at the top, middle, or bottom of the page, remember a corresponding picture on the page, or even a page number -- essentially creating a mental bookmark to cue recall of the information."
I can confirm this from personal experience. I used to listen to sermon tapes in my car on a regular basis. If I listen to one of those old tapes again, there are sections where I can tell you exactly where I was driving when certain things were said on the tape. If I happen to pass those locations, I can recall what I heard on the tapes. Pretty neat phenomenon.
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David Paul said:Mr. Micawber said:
In other words, the human brain uses location to recall the words it reads, which helps reinforce the information. To trigger a memory, the brain might recall whether it read the information at the top, middle, or bottom of the page, remember a corresponding picture on the page, or even a page number -- essentially creating a mental bookmark to cue recall of the information."I can confirm this from personal experience. I used to listen to sermon tapes in my car on a regular basis. If I listen to one of those old tapes again, there are sections where I can tell you exactly where I was driving when certain things were said on the tape. If I happen to pass those locations, I can recall what I heard on the tapes. Pretty neat phenomenon.
Indeed it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Mr. Micawber said:
Indeed it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory
That's a Dickens of a thought. [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Okay. I have confirmed that Philana's suggestion is actually viable, though I still withhold final endorsement until I've had a chance to play with Favorites some more. But I am optimistic. I am going post a few screenshots to give a sense of what I am doing and hopefully folks at Logos will understand why this function is so critical...especially in view of the above posts about location & memory. As others have said, actively PUTTING a book in your Library where you want it provides tremendous help in taking functional "ownership" in a "tangible" psychological way and facilitates recall. I tried to make this point back when L4 came out and numerous forum users, some now with "stars on thars", essentially told me to stop complaining and get a refund. [:#]
The tongue-in-cheek comment Denise asked Philana is in fact what I intend to do--port my entire Library into Favorites. HOWEVER, as I said before, I am not going to embark on that task at this time. Two things are factors here.
First, I am going to wait until L5 comes out to do this, since L4's shelf life expired a few years ago (IMO) and L5 is (hopefully) just around the corner. (*insert crossed fingers emoticon*) But this does bring up a VERY IMPORTANT POINT--when this feature is added to L5, it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that this feature carry over from one iteration of Logos to the next. Obviously, porting every resource from Library to My Library (per my suggestion in a post above) will be absurdly time-consuming--necessary and beneficial for organization and memorization purposes--but still time-consuming. This MUST be a feature that ports from one version of Logos to the next...just like L3 notes to L4.
Second, as my earlier post about this suggested, I don't really want to transfer my Library to Favorites. I want to transfer my Library to MY Library...or rather My Library. Again, L5's Library needs to essentially COPY Favorites into the Library and have a set of radial buttons that allow display of Library as currently employed in L4, as well as allowing display of what I call My Library, which is the folders & subfolders organized Library that many are begging for. That would leave Favorites to be used for its current purpose.
I am just going to post the first screenshot here, then start a new thread where this idea can be discussed, so that this doesn't take over this thread. If you have comments, please go to that thread to do so. [:)]
What you see above is my entire Library (theoretically)...isn't it a thing of BEAUTY!!! Simple, clean, comprehensible.
To discuss this feat of modern engineering, go here.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I am so glad that others share my frustration at the Library controls. I have been a user for a month and have made a good start on most aspects but the Library ..... words really fail me..
>Dave Paul --- Of course, being digital, there can (and SHOULD) be greater flexibility in my folder/subfolder grouping ability--for instance, I should be able to have one book appear in 2 or more subfolders simultaneously (i.e. an author folder and a lexicon or language or theology or commentary folder, or all of the above). This would have nothing to do with physical location on the disk, obviously. My main goal is to be able to open MY Library and have my over 4,000 resources show as approximately a dozen folders (named and sorted as I choose). <
I Like the concept of the tag system and would be happy to see the Library 'folders' based on tag system.
I guess that this would also remove the need for hiding or removing unused works for many users.0 -
I really don't know if this will help anyone but you can also sort by "Type" in your library and this is something like what you will get. The biggest drawback for me in this view is the section titled "Monograph". It has several books that I would like to put elsewhere.
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Thanks for the suggestion, Rick. But again, it doesn't really help me. "Types" only works if they are the type of "Types" that you personally would use for a particular book. I don't want Logo's way of "categorizing" a resource, or another user's... I want to be able to organize things (assign categories) that work the way I use a particular resource. Let's take, for example, "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim. How do yoy categorize this? What "type"? Some would see it and use it as a "NT Commentary". Others under "Gospels". Some would categorize it under "New Testament Backgrounds". Some might categorize it under "Second Temple Judaism" or "Rabbinics". Others could classify it under "Gospel Harmonies". There's probably a dozen more places that a person could conceivable want to group this on their library shelves. That's why I agreed with George... I HATED L3's way of doing the Library. Because it was how somebody at Logos classified the resources, not how I would have classified it, or how I would best be able to find something. We need a SIMPLE way to be able to organize our books visually that suits how we individually process/remember/categorize things and that is most useful to us.
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EmileB said:
Let's take, for example, "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Alfred Edersheim. How do yoy categorize this? What "type"? Some would see it and use it as a "NT Commentary". Others under "Gospels". Some would categorize it under "New Testament Backgrounds". Some might categorize it under "Second Temple Judaism" or "Rabbinics". Others could classify it under "Gospel Harmonies". There's probably a dozen more places that a person could conceivable want to group this on their library shelves.
That's the point in tagging resources, as anybody could tag a book like they want AND a book can carry multiple tags at the same time. The feature to make this complete would be Logos displaying the library in folders according to tags and according to the predefined subjects. One book needs to appear in more than one folder tree, so you would find Edersheim's book under all the other "Second Temple Judaism" books as well as in the "NT Backgrounds"
Have joy in the Lord!
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Are you thinking of folders looking something like this?
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Philana Crouch said:
Are you thinking of folders looking something like this?
No, this is the type: grouping we all know. More like what David posted above, with real trees, only that Logos should auto-generate the view from the existing data (after all, we are talking L5 features here!). We won't get all our wishes in the first shipment anyway, so if we only get a resemblance to the favorites as a third library view and have to organize the folders by ourselves, I'll be mostly fine, but the points of one book being in more than one category and several levels (thus folders, not grouping) is relevant.
Have joy in the Lord!
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This has always been one of my problems with Logos, even with L3. It
too often decides for me and not in the way I would choose.0 -
There is one other thing that would very likely keep me from using L5. In L3, the KJV and NASB (being in the "word for word" style of translation) have an option to display a pop-up info window using just a mouse hover which shows the Strong's entry for the underlying Hebrew or Greek word. This means a user can see every original word in a typical sentence in 5-10 seconds...without making a single click. IMMENSELY useful. Try doing that in L4. To find out what the underlying words are in L4 requires at least two or three clicks for each word...which means to get the same information can take at least a full minute or much longer. Oh, yeah...the info window can give the same info...if you are willing to give up a major chunk of screen real estate for something that should pop-up and disappear...pretty much EXACTLY like it does in L3.
In L3, a shorter Strong's entry pops up in a small window, longer references in larger windows. In L4, if a Strong's reference is too long (according to the cookie cutter, prejudged-by-Logos determination of how long an entry is allowed to be in the Info window, then you have to actually click on the Strong's entry in the Info window and have it pop up in its own window to be able to see the whole entry. Utterly absurd. I don't know what the thinking process is behind the decisions that went into L4, but for the life of me I don't understand why so many decisions were made to incorporate inferior options compared to what L3 used. From a practical, user perspective, L4 made instant and simple into tedious and time-consuming. Please don't replicate this in L5. PLEASE!
Those who don't use NASB or KJV probably don't understand what I'm talking about...most Bibles didn't have this feature. But I do use NASB and not having it at this point would be like going back to cracking flints together to make fire. Please include this feature in L5. It wouldn't hurt to add it to other word-for-word type Bibles, like ESV. Right now, in L4, you do get a hover pop-up that tells you the Strong's number, but doesn't show you the actual entry. I would like the actual Strong's entry. Even better would be to have a choice of other lexical references that one could use, such as the Dictionaries of Biblical Languages or the NASB Dictionary. A user could simply pick the preferred resource for this function in Preferences.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
There is one other thing that would very likely keep me from using L5. In L3, the KJV and NASB (being in the "word for word" style of translation) have an option to display a pop-up info window using just a mouse hover which shows the Strong's entry for the underlying Hebrew or Greek word. This means a user can see every original word in a typical sentence in 5-10 seconds...without making a single click. IMMENSELY useful.
Nonsense ! Strong's numbers are a very poor crutch. If you need the original language, it is a simple matter to link it to an English translation to see what is being translated (though I would encourage those who can and who have the desire to do so to learn the original language in the first place). A click on the original will bring up HALOT, BDB or BDAG so there is no excuse for Strong's numbers (Strongs for the weak).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:David Paul said:
There is one other thing that would very likely keep me from using L5. In L3, the KJV and NASB (being in the "word for word" style of translation) have an option to display a pop-up info window using just a mouse hover which shows the Strong's entry for the underlying Hebrew or Greek word. This means a user can see every original word in a typical sentence in 5-10 seconds...without making a single click. IMMENSELY useful.
Nonsense ! Strong's numbers are a very poor crutch. If you need the original language, it is a simple matter to link it to an English translation to see what is being translated (though I would encourage those who can and who have the desire to do so to learn the original language in the first place). A click on the original will bring up HALOT, BDB or BDAG so there is no excuse for Strong's numbers (Strongs for the weak).
isn't this waht the information panel does. . . an more?
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Josh Hunt said:George Somsel said:David Paul said:
There is one other thing that would very likely keep me from using L5. In L3, the KJV and NASB (being in the "word for word" style of translation) have an option to display a pop-up info window using just a mouse hover which shows the Strong's entry for the underlying Hebrew or Greek word. This means a user can see every original word in a typical sentence in 5-10 seconds...without making a single click. IMMENSELY useful.
Nonsense ! Strong's numbers are a very poor crutch. If you need the original language, it is a simple matter to link it to an English translation to see what is being translated (though I would encourage those who can and who have the desire to do so to learn the original language in the first place). A click on the original will bring up HALOT, BDB or BDAG so there is no excuse for Strong's numbers (Strongs for the weak).
isn't this waht the information panel does. . . an more?
I wouldn't know since I never use it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David, when you hover over the English word in the Bibles that support Reverse Interlinears (sorry George [:)]) you see all the original data in the Information Panel plus when you click on the word you see the Interlinear info at the bottom of the Bible Tab. You have a direct link to all your lexicons and other language resources. Much better IMHO then it used to be in Libronix 3.
Bohuslav
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The NUMBER 1 need in my opinion is a document management system. Like many I suppose, I have to use the "Favorites" functionality to organize my notes, clippings, passage lists, etc. This is highly manual process and a bit cumbersome. There needs to be a panel area for to manage these documents.
I get the sense that Logos would love for me to keep my devotional thoughts and documentation in Logos versus jumping to other platform or tools. If I worked at Logos, that would be my goal. Not having an mechanism or area to manage my content prevents me from being "ALL" with the Logos platform.
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Josh Hunt said:
isn't this waht the information panel does. . . an more?
Actually, it's what the info panel tries to do...and less. Like I said, I don't want to waste screen real estate on the ridiculous info panel...I don't care how much info it provides (in small Logos pre-determined bit-sized chunks). I want a POP-UP that I DON'T HAVE TO CLICK. I want to HOVER, SEE, and move on...knowledge attained.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
David, when you hover over the English word in the Bibles that support Reverse Interlinears (sorry George
) you see all the original data in the Information Panel plus when you click on the word you see the Interlinear info at the bottom of the Bible Tab. You have a direct link to all your lexicons and other language resources. Much better IMHO then it used to be in Libronix 3.I really don't like reverse interlinears. I like seeing the original language word order. Plus, once again, just as with the Info panel, you are devoting wasted space to something that doesn't need to take up any space at all. I promise you, once you get used to what I'm talking about, it seems a whole lot like sliced bread. And once again, you used the word "click". I am not wanting to click anything at all. That does one of two things...opens a window or changes a window. I just want to see the original word and move along. Hover...done.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
David, when you hover over the English word in the Bibles that support Reverse Interlinears (sorry George
) you see all the original data in the Information Panel plus when you click on the word you see the Interlinear info at the bottom of the Bible Tab. You have a direct link to all your lexicons and other language resources. Much better IMHO then it used to be in Libronix 3.I really don't like reverse interlinears. I like seeing the original language word order. Plus, once again, just as with the Info panel, you are devoting wasted space to something that doesn't need to take up any space at all. I promise you, once you get used to what I'm talking about, it seems a whole like sliced bread. And once again, you used the word "click". I am not wanting to click anything at all. That does one of two things...opens a window or changes a window. I just want to see the original word and move along. Hover...done.
I looked in L3 to remind myself of what David was speaking, and indeed it was a nice feature which disappeared in L4:
L4 has other features which enable you to get at that information, but not as quickly and easily, and not without taking up permanent screen real estate.
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George Somsel said:David Paul said:
There is one other thing that would very likely keep me from using L5. In L3, the KJV and NASB (being in the "word for word" style of translation) have an option to display a pop-up info window using just a mouse hover which shows the Strong's entry for the underlying Hebrew or Greek word. This means a user can see every original word in a typical sentence in 5-10 seconds...without making a single click. IMMENSELY useful.
Nonsense ! Strong's numbers are a very poor crutch. If you need the original language, it is a simple matter to link it to an English translation to see what is being translated (though I would encourage those who can and who have the desire to do so to learn the original language in the first place). A click on the original will bring up HALOT, BDB or BDAG so there is no excuse for Strong's numbers (Strongs for the weak).
I saved the worst for last. EVERYBODY knows your opinion about Strong's, George...just like everyone knows your opinion about interlinears. You call them both a crutch. I'm sorry, but no. I'm not using either one as a crutch. I know how to study Hebrew. What I am asking for is INSTANT information. You used the word "click"...a much bigger FAIL than seeing what Strong's says a word is in Hebrew. I have L4 linked up pretty well already...but even so, I don't want to have to click over to BHS, LHI, or any other ANYTHING...I want to know what the word is in Hebrew INSTANTLY without clicking anything. I have HALOT, BDB, and a few others. I don't worship them like you do...I find HALOT to be rather tiresome, as a matter of fact. Fine for study...though it only occasionally offers anything different than Strong's or any other reference does. It's ABSOLUTELY NOT useful for a quick identification of which word is used in the Hebrew. In fact, threre IS an excuse for Strong's numbers...that's the resource that is CURRENTLY USED for the feature I'm asking for. I could say I'm sorry you don't like it...but I'm not sorry...there's no need to apologize for anything. Your provincial opinion about Bible study is not some set-in-stone dictate that everyone else must abide by. And all three suggestions here are asking me to do much more and waste 5-10 times as much time (minimum, since it is hard to improve on instant) as the HOVER AND SEE feature I'm asking for.
Besides, Strong's has an advantage that the other resources you mentioned don't have...it covers both Hebrew AND Greek...all in one resource. Like I said, I wouldn't mind if the Dictionaries of Biblical Languages were used (Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic) but whether they can be is an open question (though I assume they could be). I KNOW that Strong's can be...because it already is.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Rosie Perera said:
I looked in L3 to remind myself of what David was speaking, and indeed it was a nice feature which disappeared in L4:
L4 has other features which enable you to get at that information, but not as quickly and easily, and not without taking up permanent screen real estate.
I appreciate you posting the screenshot, Rosie. My screenshot software won't let me capture pop-ups. Your dialogue boxes help too. [:)]
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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(in ref. to screenshot and what it points out)...
Gotta admit. That's a pretty useful little feature. Count my vote in favor.
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David Paul said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
David, when you hover over the English word in the Bibles that support Reverse Interlinears (sorry George
) you see all the original data in the Information Panel plus when you click on the word you see the Interlinear info at the bottom of the Bible Tab. You have a direct link to all your lexicons and other language resources. Much better IMHO then it used to be in Libronix 3.I really don't like reverse interlinears. I like seeing the original language word order. Plus, once again, just as with the Info panel, you are devoting wasted space to something that doesn't need to take up any space at all. I promise you, once you get used to what I'm talking about, it seems a whole lot like sliced bread. And once again, you used the word "click". I am not wanting to click anything at all. That does one of two things...opens a window or changes a window. I just want to see the original word and move along. Hover...done.
You don't need to bother with reverse or non-reverse interlinears. I believe you spoke of using the NASB (I could check, but why?). This is the first time I've resorted to the NASB and am only doing it as a favor to you. Note the screenshot attached.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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