Crowdsourcing: The Apostle John throughout history

Evan Brammer

The relevance of this to Logos is that it will be used extensively for research...

I have been kicking around an idea for an historical fiction novel about the Apostle John.  I put my idea here (feel free to steal and run with it if you so desire) hoping to kind of crowdsource some more ideas and gauge interest. Being that you are all the "premier" Bible scholars of this tech generation, you would most likely be the target audience.

Idea Background: Jesus' restoration of Peter at the end of John includes that "fun" tidbit about the "possibility" that John would not die, but remain until Christ's return.  John of course corrects the rumor that he wouldn't die in the next few verses, BUT he obviously wrote that before he died so it is no definitive word.  As far as history goes, it is my understanding there is no actual record of John's death as with the other apostles, only that it is "accepted" that he died while in Ephesus or possibly on Patmos. However, the possibility that John remained/remains alive is there.  (Though, for biblical accuracy I will contend the point of the passage is for Peter to focus on his own walk with Christ and stop "passing the buck" so to say.)

Idea: What if John didn't ever die but in a behind-the-scenes, low-key kind of Highlander way has been sharing Christ throughout history.  I think it would be interesting to put John in different historical periods and tell the story of his interaction with people, possibly famous ... here Martin Luther, say's the Janitor John, take a look at Romans... hint hint (not that obvious of course).

Quick Synopsis:

It is said that there remains in the world one man that saw the risen Christ; that touched His wounds and broke bread with Him before He ascended.  It is said that this man would not taste death but would be alive and present at the time of His return.  This is that man's story.

What are the Logos crowd's thoughts?  If you have any ideas on a good historical period or if you think this is a great/terrible idea for a fiction book, let me know.  If anyone is interested in teaming up on the research end, that would be cool too.

Glenn F

I already want to read it! Sounds like a very interesting christian fiction idea. In addition to the highlander reference there was a series called Casca about someone who could not die. Quoting from Wikipedia:    Casca is a series of paperback novels, loosely based on the legend of the Wandering Jew, created and written by author Barry Sadler in 1979. The stories revolve around the life of Casca Rufio Longinus, a soldier in the Roman legions who is cursed by Christ on Golgotha for driving a spear into him. For his efforts Casca was doomed to wander the Earth aimlessly, always as a soldier.

 

Tim LaHaye as you probably already know has written fictionalized books on three of the apostles so far. I have the first and would like to get the others.

 

As A target audience I would enjoy seeing your idea published. When you do get it published don't forget those of us who have E-Books. And NO we do NOT all have Kindles.[:D]

 Good luck with your Idea.

Theoferrum

You ever heard of a guy called Erasmus?

I think that was John.

You might be interested in a post of mine that I typed up on him.  The Orthodox Church has a strange legend that he did not die but asked his disciples to bury him and check on him three days later and his body was gone.  This, by the way, explains how Tertullian could have actually known John circa 150 AD.

Sincerely,

David T. Hill

The Son of Thunder

David Hill (29 Dec 2003) "The Son of Thunder"

"I am the Resurrection and the Life. He that believes and me and dies, yet shall live. And he that believes in me and lives, shall never die..."

Several years ago now, I sent in a post on the Son of Thunder, but unfortunately I forgot to save the draft, and it is no longer in the archieves. I had been contemplating retyping it. So, I figured that this must be the leading of the Spirit, so here it is.

I stumbled on to this theory when I realized that man's first six thousand years would be divided up into three groups of 2000 yrs each, and that this symbolized the Trinity. And, in the first 2000 God the Father was typified by Enoch who did not die and thus lived forever like The Ancient of Days Himself. It was easy, therefore, to make the connection of the second set to God the Son who was represented by Elijah who was also taken up to heaven without dying and thus represents Y'shua who also is God. Thus, in theory, there should be a third individual that represents the third set of 2000 years which itself typifies the Holy Spirit.

The only conclusion would be John who, it is possible, might not have died, but, like the Holy Spirit that has "gone out into all the earth" John has been walking the earth for all these years.

When you look at the Scriptures and Church History, it provides circumstantial evidence that, though it does not prove the theory, it certainly does not disprove
it either.

His name, "John Zebedee" would mean, literally, "A Gift from the Eternal Giver that Endures" and exactly what gift could The Eternal One give someone that would last forever? Obviuosly it would be Eternal Life. Thus it is that John mentions Eternal Life more than all the other writers of the New Testament combined. John was extremely interested in this Gift.

Now, place yourself at his side when Y'shua raised Lazarus with the words at the top of this post. He that believes on me and lives shall never die. Those words were probably still ringing in John's ears a couple of weeks later when he is standing inside the empty tomb and he then says of himself that he believed, speaking, of course, by the Holy Spirit. John didn't just believe that Y'shua was alive, he believed that Y'shua was the resurrection and the life, and in doing so, possibly became the fulfillment of that very truth.

Thus, after the resurrection, while on the shores of the sea of Galilee, Y'shua tells Peter to follow Him, and not to worry about John for if it were His Will, than John would tarry until He returns. Thus, the rumor went out throughout all the Spirit filled Church, that John would never die. John himself, does not deny this possibility, only qualifies it, as his Lord did, with "If it were His will" then he will tarry until the return (which, by the way, technically would be refering to the end of the trib, and thus John may have a ministry to Israel during the trib).

Because of this 'rumor' John also ended up earning another name by the early church and it is "That Certain One" as Paul calls him in one of his epistles.

He is the Certain One who will never die. Thus it is that Justin Martyr tells of his own conversion at the side of a lake by "A Certain Old Man" who introduced him to the Lord, while he was "searching for a lost memeber of his household."

The teaching of the early church tells us that John, though in his older years (80's possibly) saw a backslidden young believer one day, who, when he saw John, took off running in the other direction in his quilt, and John took off after him and caught him, and led him back into the fold. This shows us what kind of physical condition that John was in, much like Moses (and Caleb) who maintained their natural strength.

The oldest tradition we have concerning the death of the Beloved Disciple is from the Greek Orthodox Church (they, if anyone, would know since he was last seen in Asia Minor) which states that John told his disciples to bury him alive, which they did (probably in a tomb). Then, they went back for him later but he was gone.

Thus, there is no Scriptural evidence that John ever died.

He was commissioned by our Lord to go to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" which is refering to the lost tribes, and thus John would have been "ordaining elders" in and amoung these people unawares for all this time. Also, assuredly John would have been involved in any major Translation of the Word, like Erasmus, who knew many different languages and completed a translation of the Word at the expense of rejecting two very lucritive positions in the Catholic Church and in another organization (by the way he used the Received Text which aught to tell you something).  Interstingly enough, the individual that convinced King James that they needed a new translation was a guy named John, unfortunately, I don't remember his last name.

In the winter of 86/87 while at Bible College in Arizona, I was walking home from the restaurant that I worked at, and up ahead of me I see this "Certain Old Man" standing on the sidewalk, and I get the impression from the Spirit that I should witness to this individual. So, when I neared him I asked him if I could ask him a question. He said yes, and so I asked him, "If you were to die tonight, would you go to heaven?"

Immeadiatly he responded, "Heaven, what do you know about Heaven? Where is Heaven?" This particular response caught me off guard, so I sheepishly replied, "Ah, Heaven is where God dwells." To which he said something to the effect that "that's a pretty pat answer" or something like that, but what surprised (and awed) me next was that he began quoting about four or five verses (all of which I recognized) showing me exactly where Heaven is as if he had personally been there (somewhere in "The North"), which John had been to, when he received the Revelation.

After this, he barraged me with questions about the Bible, all of which I successfully answered, and this caused him to calm down and he said, "well, I quess you do know alittle bit about the Bible, huh" to which I aswered "yeah, a little bit" and then we had an interesting conversation that lasted for about ten minutes or so, during which he told me I was from the tribe of Ephraim, to which I responded "how can you tell" and to which he replied "Oh, I can tell by your eyes and the color of your hair" which, really, should be impossible (if true) for the physical identity of the tribes have been lost for 2000 years, yet he claimed to be able to id the tribes by their physical characteristics.

By the way I have a 'condition' when I shave where by, the hairs of my beard are so corse, that when they are cut with a razor, they immeadiately curl up under the skin, so that, when they start regrowing, they pierce the skin, and it becomes discomforting, to say the least. That is one of the reasons that I don't shave any more. This condition is well known amoung black people and in fact, in the military the blacks are the only ones who can get shaving wavers for this very reason. Now, the reason that I say this is because Ephraim and Manasseh were sired by Joseph and an Egyptian Princess, and thus, their descendants might also manifest this particular skin condition. Something to think about.

So, after this little discussion, he then told me something that I couldn't believe at the time, and so I thought he was either lying to me or crazy, so I broke of the conversation, and that is that he had the entire Bible memorized in like forty differenct languages, or something like that. However, if this were John, who had wandered the entire world, for all these years, and learned the languages of different peoples and translated the Word, hundreds of times, then he could have memorized the Word as he said.

Years later, after I had come to the conclusion that he may be alive, I went back out to Arizona to try and find him, without any luck (forgot to check Messianic Congregations). When I described this individual to one Pastor who had been in the area for about ten years (I toned down the description to only ten languages), this pastor said, "well, if that's true, then he would have the Apostle Paul beat." "Yeah, he would" I replied, and then hung up.

Now, though I don't know if I should or not, but since I have not heard from this individual again, I assume that he has "moved on" so I will add this to the story. Right after I originally posted this material on the Doves, I got a letter from Rosh Kodesh, and he quoted one of the Psalms that I mentioned in that post that John would have seen "many sore troubles". He was responding to my statement that one night at the Power Company I used to work at, when I had arrived at the conclusion that John was still alive, I opened my Bible to turn to the Revelation at the end of the Bible, and the Scriptures instead actually opened up directly to Psalm 71 and I looked down and read, "now Lord, when I am old and gray don't forsake me until I have shown the generation that is to come your wonderful salvation" and I knew that John was alive and this Psalm was referring specifically to him. So, Rosh Kodesh was emphasisinng to me the struggles that John would have went through in this fallen world system over the course of the last 2,000, as if he was remembering them himsef.

I didn't think much about it for a couple of months but then I got to thinking what if John was alive and ministering to people on the net, wouldn't he, eventually, find his way to the Doves who are watching for the return of the Lord more than any other group of Christians I know? Then I remembered this letter from Rosh. I believe, for other reasons that I am not including here that occured in our letters, that Rosh Kodesh was this "Certain Old Man" that I had met in Arizona, and I believe that he is John.

It was right after I met this individual that I got the impression that I was susposed to head back to my home in New England (see post The Road to Zion).

This repost is not as detailed as the original, but I guess you get the picture.

And by the way, in Ps 71, the individual is "revived" three times. For John, this would have occured the first time after his minstry was ended in Asia Minor at his 'burial' and the second time around 1000ad for the Lord "visits man every morning" or every thousand years, and He would have visited the beloved disciple then, and finally, the third time John will have his youth restored would be at the Rapture. So, I am quite sure I will be seeing John again during the trib in Israel. But I may not recognize him then in his 'new' body. For aught we know, he is one of The Four Carpenters that I mentioned in my recent post.

Oh, and one more thing to John, in case he reads this: Y'shua didn't say no, he said, not yet...

Editor's Note : December 21, 2009 :

It may interest the reader to know that, now that I have converted to Catholicism and am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy that I have realized that, in fact, John assuredly became immortal via the Real Presense in the Eucharist which is known as Theosis. The Catholics do not believe that this is possible in this life but the Orthodox do.

Kinda like they know something that no one else does, huh...

Welcome to my World...

http://theoferrum.blogspot.com

Dennis Scott Kuvshinikov

Evan. Of John, not the cousin of Jesu, rather the brother of James the Just and critic (at least in the book of Revelations) of the Paul who was and is also known as Saul who was carried, slung across the back of Paul(by his own confession) until he died or more precisely until he would see the Lord face to face....

You suggested an idea that John fulfilled to some measure not sealable until the end, the promise of Jesu of ever lasting life.

 The disciple whom Jesu loved, likely the man in white linen at the garden at Gethsemane

Perrhaps sharing a resemblance in description and in title with another man in white linen presented in the book of Daniel. 

  Sir. Ten years ago you posted this.... have you progressed in your creative/research efforts on the matter?

- Scott(the man in white fruit of the bloom's and the other one Jesu also loves).