Disappointed
Comments
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Dennis Miller said:
I will admit to you and to all that I have let my disappointment cloud my judgement and for that I apologize. I don't want to say goodbye to Logos,
Accepted.
May I make a recommendation? When the Minimum Crossgrade is released—soon, but don't know how soon—purchase that. If L5 dod not live up to your expectations, take advantage of Logos' generous return policy.
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Dan DeVilder said:
fwiw, I have heard that Mac performance in 5 is much better. maybe when the free engine comes out, it will improve your own experience.
I really want to believe that and yes my experiences with the people of Logos and not just the entity behind the product has always been positive. Much of my frustration and comments towards them were uncalled for and unfair. Bob has always been up front about the mistakes he's made in some of the choices that went into L4 development on the Mac platform and has even apologized for that and been very visible on these forums when He definitely has more important things to do, for that I thank him. I will have to continue monitoring all the mac users on here and see how their experience with L5 is going before I take the plunge again.
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Dennis Miller said:Dan DeVilder said:
fwiw, I have heard that Mac performance in 5 is much better. maybe when the free engine comes out, it will improve your own experience.
I really want to believe that and yes my experiences with the people of Logos and not just the entity behind the product has always been positive. Much of my frustration and comments towards them were uncalled for and unfair. Bob has always been up front about the mistakes he's made in some of the choices that went into L4 development on the Mac platform and has even apologized for that and been very visible on these forums when He definitely has more important things to do, for that I thank him. I will have to continue monitoring all the mac users on here and see how their experience with L5 is going before I take the plunge again.
Thanks for this post. It was encouraging to read.
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Dennis,
L5 Mac is running really good for me on my 2008 MBP running Lion. It is fast, responsive and when I compare it to the PC version I have running at the office it is very comparable. My prayer is that you will find satisfaction with this update. Please post back when you get an opportunity to update.
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Dennis Miller said:
I will have to continue monitoring all the mac users on here and see how their experience with L5 is going before I take the plunge again.
If you have any specific questions, comments, even rants, my email address is jackcaviness at mac dot com
Feel free to contact me. I cannot give you any comparisons with Accordance. Although I have faithfully upgraded to 9 and then to 10, I have not taken the time to learn the new system.
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I read through a lot of these posts...accept the boring stuff and the bantering...here's the bottom line for me. They tell me it's going to cost me a little over 300 to upgrade. Yes, I get it...the engine is free and if that's all I want, no worries. But I don't want my Bible software running ahead of me so far that it will...and IT WILL...get too far out of reach. Someone compared it to a Rolls Royce and a Chevy (although I would have least said Honda!!). I really don't need seat-warmers in my Bible software. I know some of you (especially the Logos people) are going to be real excited about a lot of "cool" new features...and I admit, new stuff is cool once you get to using it. It's just that I attached myself to this particular program and it really bugs me that every there years or so they want to extract another upgrade fee in the form of $300 from me to keep me up with the cool stuff, after telling me all the good reasons not to buy hard copies of my commentaries and other books. Again, I get the free "engine thing" in a few weeks. But again, $300 to stay up with the cool features. There are some commentaries and other resources I would rather put that money towards...forgive me if I sound cheap, but...well...sorry! I think I paid 19.99 for the new Apple OS program. That was relatively painless. Could we take a lesson from these guys...small increments? Who cares what "color" my edition is now, bronze or blue! And again, sooner or later the next new engine isn't going to work with the "old program." Yes, I'm somewhat irritated and really it is okay, folks, to be irritated. I don't expect Bob, or Dan, or anybody from Logos to change what they're doing...I just have to rethink if this is what I want to continue doing every three years or so. Especially in light of the fact that there is so much more free stuff popping up on the web these days! I just think, Bob, Dan and company (and this is obviously just my opinion) that maybe you are leaving some of us behind who are perfectly fine with a good running Honda!
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Hi Dennis
Dennis Schreiber said:Again, I get the free "engine thing" in a few weeks. But again, $300 to stay up with the cool features
Just to clarify. The Minimal Crossgrade (not yet available but should be shortly) will provide all / most of the "cool" features for probably less than $100.
Details at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx
Graham
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When you say the minimal crossgrade should be available "shortly", does that mean days, weeks, months?
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Dennis Schreiber said:
I just think, Bob, Dan and company (and this is obviously just my opinion) that maybe you are leaving some of us behind who are perfectly fine with a good running Honda!
You puzzle me. No one is forcing you to upgrade. If you are content with what you have, why upgrade? L4 will continue to work just like it does now indefinitely. In fact, Bob has stated that development on L4 will continue. So pardon me if I do not understand what upsets you so much.
If Logos does not continue to move forward, they become stagnant and someone else will take their place.
Dennis Schreiber said:I think I paid 19.99 for the new Apple OS program.
Frankly, you are comparing Apples to oranges. What is the relationship to the cost of an OS upgrade to the cost of a Logos upgrade?
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JH said:
When you say the minimal crossgrade should be available "shortly", does that mean days, weeks, months?
All I know is the information in the post to which I linked.
In it Bob Pritchett states:
"- Yes, but when? We're not sure, but it won't be a terribly long wait -- though it may feel that way if you've watched the Logos 5 videos! I know it's hard to wait when it looks (and is!) so cool...."
That's all we have at the moment.
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Dennis Schreiber said:
Again, I get the free "engine thing" in a few weeks. But again, $300 to stay up with the cool features. There are some commentaries and other resources I would rather put that money towards...forgive me if I sound cheap, but...well...sorry! I think I paid 19.99 for the new Apple OS program. That was relatively painless. Could we take a lesson from these guys...small increments? Who cares what "color" my edition is now, bronze or blue!
Something to consider: Apple makes their money on the sale of hardware. Logos doesn't have that option. They make money by selling resources, which includes books and "features" with "data sets." Resources with copyright's sill in effect mean that the largest portion of what you are paying is going to the publisher and author. When Amazon sells you a book, their obligation is over (other than hosting the title on their servers). When Logos sells you a resource, they continue to provide additional functionality. If you don't buy new books, Logos is providing this benefit to you for free. How will Logos stay in business if people don't purchase new resources? How will they stay in business if they don't sell these new features to existing customers?
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JH said:
When you say the minimal crossgrade should be available "shortly", does that mean days, weeks, months?
This seems to be the question that I would like to see answered. It's hard for me to believe they can't provide general guidance on when this should be available.
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I haven't read all the enteries in this thread but did read several pages of comments some complementary to Logos and some fairly critical. I have been in the software business for a long time now and trying to use words precisely is always an issue.
Seems like the wrong word to use here is "upgrade". L5 may not be the excat correct word to use. Logos has relaesed a new version of their software. For technical and business reasons the package names used in the past are still used but the resources inside the packages have changed. Logos has always been about selling resources. I have been using their product since it was LIbronix. I have invested a consierable amount of money in this product and resources.
Software design, production, release, and support is not cheap these days. And its costs in the future will continue to go up. No doubt the cots of software improvement is built into the reosurce cost and costs are also covered through "new business" (new customers). But everytime I have purchased a resource in the past (and there have been many) a little bit of the price was target for future software improvements.
Having said all that, Logos is the most advanced product on the market. Otherwise I would have switched several thousands of dollars ago. It appears to me that they have a L5 platform scheduled for release but have not set a date yet. Since they are selling "new" L5 packages now support and developement will be busy for awhile keeping up with "bugs" and stuff. I understand the L5 upgrade will be free. Your L4 resources will work in L5 but the current ugrade they are currently offering will take advantge of the new databases required to use ti its full extent.
My plan now that I see the costs involved of upgrading to a new release (and I will) I can budget for it. But L4 works perfectly fine unitl I have the new cost budgeted. I would never expect Logos no matter what I had been told or thought I had been told that I would expect a terrific new version free of charge. I want Logos owners, staff, and team to be around for awhile and I am happy to contribute to my part of the cost to continue to receive a terrific product.
So I give Logos a thumbs up. I do think they could communicate better. But most software companies keep some details close to the vest as delivering specific products on customers expected timetable is hard to do and customers are rarely happy when tehir expectations are not met. In the past I have seen some pretty critical comments made about Logos in these forums. But being the best at waht tey do comes with many pitfalls and challenges. I have found that patience works pretty well as they have always delivered for me.
Thanks Bob and Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas to yo uand all your staff. Keep up the good work.
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Just to update on my end...
Logos worked out an upgrade program with me that was customized to keep my resources and get the new datasets. While I have not had time yet to explore the new program, I can already tell that it will be much better than 4, even though I had only had a little experience with 4.
I also picked up 200+ new resources even though the calculator didn't list quite that many.
Thanks for working with me Logos. I will update (presumably with praise) soon.
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James Jordan said:JH said:
When you say the minimal crossgrade should be available "shortly", does that mean days, weeks, months?
This seems to be the question that I would like to see answered. It's hard for me to believe they can't provide general guidance on when this should be available.
Bob is very reluctant to predict dates since he was badly burned with predictions of the initial release of Logos for Mac
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Mark, I have nearly the same sentiments. After many years with Logos/Libronix, i have built an impressive library while taking advantage of pre pubs, sales, etc. I have L4 Portfolio and a number of special choice books and collections. I hardly see any value in purchasing more books just for the sake of the engine, and have chosen to just wait for the crossover. HOWEVER, I am disappointed that customers of long tenure with the larger L4 packages and/or larger libraries were not considered as first-reach-out with the new frillies!!! I hardly see myself spending $2000 on books I don't know just to get the engine - I have already bought crossovers before and LOTS of books - seems old-timer loyals were forgotten in this new upgrade.
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I agree. I sure would hate to see this company be like everyone else.
God Bless - Jeremiah 29:11
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Fred T Daniel Jr said:
Mark, I have nearly the same sentiments. After many years with Logos/Libronix, i have built an impressive library while taking advantage of pre pubs, sales, etc. I have L4 Portfolio and a number of special choice books and collections. I hardly see any value in purchasing more books just for the sake of the engine, and have chosen to just wait for the crossover. HOWEVER, I am disappointed that customers of long tenure with the larger L4 packages and/or larger libraries were not considered as first-reach-out with the new frillies!!! I hardly see myself spending $2000 on books I don't know just to get the engine - I have already bought crossovers before and LOTS of books - seems old-timer loyals were forgotten in this new upgrade.
Fred, I'm with you on not wanting resources just for the sake of resources . . . no point in that. some packages don't excite me that much, although I do find some decent products. I realize that has some to do with the publisher's restricting how their products are marketed/sold. That stinks, too. I was almost going to respond that it might be an interesting idea to have a kind of 'pre-release' offer to "loyal" customers. While that makes sense on one hand, I wonder--could Logos be charged with favoritism by others--with favoring the "rich" . . . and if they made the cut-off threshold at (eg) 9000 dollars spent in 10 years, would the user who spent 8000 cry FOUL~! or, the one who was only a year user, but spent 3000 .. . I think it could be a lose-lose for Logos. Kind of like in NCAA football, trying to determine the BCS bowl teams, someone ALWAYS feels cheated, no matter the model. Just wondering.
I'd recommend, if you haven't, calling them, and seeing what kind of deal they might work out for you. They usually are really responsive.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
I was almost going to respond that it might be an interesting idea to have a kind of 'pre-release' offer to "loyal" customers. While that makes sense on one hand, I wonder--could Logos be charged with favoritism by others--with favoring the "rich" . . . and if they made the cut-off threshold at (eg) 9000 dollars spent in 10 years, would the user who spent 8000 cry FOUL~! or, the one who was only a year user, but spent 3000 .. . I think it could be a lose-lose for Logos
I think there will always be some unhappy customers no matter what approach they take. I do think that this upgrade has been smoother than the change to Logos 4.
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You have a point. I'm glad the augment this time is more on marketing then software features.Wayne said:Dan DeVilder said:I was almost going to respond that it might be an interesting idea to have a kind of 'pre-release' offer to "loyal" customers. While that makes sense on one hand, I wonder--could Logos be charged with favoritism by others--with favoring the "rich" . . . and if they made the cut-off threshold at (eg) 9000 dollars spent in 10 years, would the user who spent 8000 cry FOUL~! or, the one who was only a year user, but spent 3000 .. . I think it could be a lose-lose for Logos
I think there will always be some unhappy customers no matter what approach they take. I do think that this upgrade has been smoother than the change to Logos 4.
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Fred T Daniel Jr said:
Mark, I have nearly the same sentiments. After many years with Logos/Libronix, i have built an impressive library while taking advantage of pre pubs, sales, etc. I have L4 Portfolio and a number of special choice books and collections. I hardly see any value in purchasing more books just for the sake of the engine, and have chosen to just wait for the crossover. HOWEVER, I am disappointed that customers of long tenure with the larger L4 packages and/or larger libraries were not considered as first-reach-out with the new frillies!!! I hardly see myself spending $2000 on books I don't know just to get the engine - I have already bought crossovers before and LOTS of books - seems old-timer loyals were forgotten in this new upgrade.
If and when I decide to upgrade, from looking at the choices I'd rather just be able to upgrade to the new engine and datasets with the library I've already built. I am not really interested in the resources on preaching, counseling, etc. Language and textual study is what interests me as well as ancient and historical texts that's why I purchased the previous original languages package.
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Dennis Miller said:
If and when I decide to upgrade, from looking at the choices I'd rather just be able to upgrade to the new engine and datasets with the library I've already built.
In another thread—which one of all these, I don't remember—Phil Gons said the cross grade options should be out soon, maybe a couple of weeks. There will be different options which will contain different data sets. These data sets are resources that make Logos 5 really shine.
One of these should be what you are seeking.
Found it: 419531.aspx and especially 419542.aspx
Hope this helps
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Thanks Jack!!
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It has been mentioned by Logos in another thread that they have made the promise some years ago to always keep this program free. My hope is that some good would come from all this negativity lately, and that they would actually break this promise, and have all future versions of their wonderful program, with all its functionality, available on launch day to the public.
Argumentatively, I suppose there could be a fully-featured version, a mainstream version, and a light or free version. Notwithstanding the critical resources that would be needed for the first two options, this would better separate the program from the base packages and optional resources. Existing customers, especially with larger libraries, would be better served in my (and many others) opinion.
For all the examples about cars, here is a better analogy in my thinking. Microsoft just released Windows 8. Folks can purchase/upgrade to this new OS until Christmas, but must also buy the new version of Microsoft Office. I can just imagine what the reaction would be from around the world, even if Office came with a great discount price. At the heart of all this buzz around Logos 5, this is what so many existing customers are simply saying (though not very kind at times). I praised Logos a couple of days ago when they indicated an upgrade would be made available soon (2-3 weeks). This will allow folks to upgrade to "Windows 8" and not have to purchase "Office."
Again, I hope they actually break their long-standing promise for future releases. I for one would be very happy to upgrade my program (with critical resources necessary for new features) on launch day without puchasing additional resources.
Despite all this, still a happy Logos Bible Software customer, and looking forward to eventually using Logos 5.
Regards
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Mark O'Hearn said:
It has been mentioned by Logos in another thread that they have made the promise some years ago to always keep this program free. My hope is that some good would come from all this negativity lately, and that they would actually break this promise, and have all future versions of their wonderful program, with all its functionality, available on launch day to the public.
I don't follow. Are you saying that you want to pay for the software update? Is waiting a few weeks really that difficult to get the free engine?
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I apologize for not being clear. I, and I believe there are many other existing customers, would like to see future major releases of Logos (Logos 6, 7, 8 . . .) offered as a standalone, fully functioning, program on launch day, just like so many other programs and operating systems. Obviously, this would not be free, I only suggested that there could be some versions offered, like there has been in the case of Microsoft Windows, though they seem to be moving away from that model. A simple free version would really be geared to potential new customers in my opinion in any event.
I am waiting, as I stated, for the upgrade. Logos is a business, I am a customer, this is their forums, I am providing customer feedback, and I am thankful for the opportunity.
Regards
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Dennis Miller said:
...
If and when I decide to upgrade, from looking at the choices I'd rather just be able to upgrade to the new engine and datasets with the library I've already built. I am not really interested in the resources on preaching, counseling, etc. Language and textual study is what interests me as well as ancient and historical texts that's why I purchased the previous original languages package.
I am in a similar position though I upgraded from the original languages package to L4 Platinum because it was the most economical way to get some resources I was interested in. But now I have a moderately high level of disappointment and dissatisfaction with Logos the company at the very poorly communicated roll-out. I did not have and still do not have a week later all the
information available to make rational choices based on my budget and
needs and had to spend hours of my time before I could root out the
information that at some unspecified time in the future I would have
that information.Furthermore, I have been using Logos since
its very earliest days - I think since version 1.1 but the earliest
diskettes I can find are for Logos 2.0a. And like many have invested
many thousands of dollars purchasing resources and currently have about
$1700 on pre-pubs and another $1,000 or so in community pricing bids.
Given my long-term commitment to various Logos platforms, I feel
ill-used that the only communication about the Logos5 roll-out I got was
an announcement email of the upgrade and a link to a web page in which the
only information presented was that I should spend many hundreds of dollars more
to get the benefits of Logos 5. No word then and still no word now on
the main product pages even after quite a brouhaha that there was a
minimum cross-grade coming. The worst of it was that there was a suggestion in the email that the discounts were for a
limited time only. It just reminds me all too much of those car dealer negotiation/pressure tactics. I counter those with having information about pricing, options and performance. I have no way of getting that information right now.I understand Logos's business model is dependent on selling resources but it should also be on retaining long-time customers and because they rolled this out without having the whole campaign planned and having full pricing information available someplace they have disappointed and alienated to some extent this long time customer. My varied background as a software developer and product manager in major financial firms for 25 years and currently a manager of a retail social enterprise as well as a seminary grad have given me a lot of insight into (and sympathy for dealing with) the issues around the Logos business model. I have decided to be patient and wait until that information is available to make my final decisions but am feeling unnecessarily put upon by what appears to be a rushed and botched product roll-out and it is causing me to doubt the wisdom of my long term commitment to the Logos platform and certainly no longer recommend so unreservedly the platform since I have reservations about the viability of a company does a major product roll-out like this.
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Douglas Horst said:
Furthermore, I have been using Logos since its very earliest days
Peace, Douglas! Me too! Using logos since the earliest days. I haven`t been able to put my personal resources together right now to move from L4 Portfolio to L5 Portfolio and will have to live with the cross grade when it comes out at least for a little while until I make my big L5 move! *smile*
But, Douglas, have read your post twice and was wondering if the Logos L5 upgrade calculator gave you a price ..... I did receive an upgrade calculator price, both from the computer and from one of Logos sales guys.........
Maybe it`s not the best information, but the new to you section has some information; so you may want to try that ....
Anyway, Blessings to you and your family!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
...But, Douglas, have read your post twice and was wondering if the Logos L5 upgrade calculator gave you a price ..... I did receive an upgrade calculator price, both from the computer and from one of Logos sales guys.........
Yes I did get a personal quote that has seems to have been consistent over the wee but it is only part of the necessary information. We don't have prices yet for the minimal cross-grade nor as far as I can tell for the resources I am interested in especially the Septuagint and Apostolic Fathers related information. And that is my point. How can I compare what is the most economical way for me to get L5 with the new data bases and resources necessary to make it work and get the resources that best fit my use. I am not opposed to using the advertised upgrade path if it is the best price (though it will hurt financially) but I will get dozens and maybe hundreds of resources I wouldn't use (depending on whether I would choose the new Silver, Gold Platinum or Diamond packages). I need the information on pricing of the minimal cross-grade and the resources I really do want to make a rational choice. My argument is that it should have been presented from the beginning.
From what people are reporting it sounds like Logos 5 is a worthy upgrade and what 4 should have been. Logos, the company, has detracted from the introduction of a reportedly great product with a campaign that has confused, disappointed and/or angered more than a few long-time customers.
Thanks for your reply and peace.
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Douglas Horst said:
Thanks for your reply and peace
I thank YOU Douglas for your reply and peace. I think you've actually helped me relax and be patient until I can make some good God-Pleasing decisions on where I go from here. Not getting any younger! Have more than I truly need already! But, do love God's Word and everything about God's Word and do appreciate all the power of Logos Bible Software! Blessings from Eastern Canada! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Just looking at commentaries, one comment that I could make is that the last major upgrade from version 3 to 4 Platinum was that there was some killer commentaries such as PNTC, NIGCT and BECNT. This gave it a WOW factor. Upgrading to the new Platinum doesn't have these, but does have new titles such as BNTC, LCNT and Exegetical Summaries. I note that ICT has been dropped even for the upper packages.
This is not entirely bad, though I prefer the older offerings. This being said, it is a different ball game when it comes to included resources with base packages. If you have them from a previous upgrade, then the new upgrade will give you some new commentaries that you might not already have.
The datasets look interesting as well as there are some good materials in these new upgrades in categories other than commentaries.
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Jeffery A. Clark said:
Just another reason why I keep my Libronix 3.
I did the upgrade to Logos 4 Bible Study, despite only using a select few Lutheran resources, and still don't have half the functionality of 3 in 4. None of Luther's Works have been updated to work any faster in Logos 4, in fact, I think some of them are slower.
I think there's wisdom here.
I'm going to looking into options for dowgrading. I'm readily getting tired of this circus.
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Jeffery A. Clark said:
Just another reason why I keep my Libronix 3.
I did the upgrade to Logos 4 Bible Study, despite only using a select few Lutheran resources, and still don't have half the functionality of 3 in 4. None of Luther's Works have been updated to work any faster in Logos 4, in fact, I think some of them are slower.
Peace to you Jeffery! Welcome to the Logos Forums. I notice this is your first post. Please feel free to post left and right and backwards and forwards.... The Forums are designed to try to be a help for us to support each other.
I particularly noticed that you have a select few Lutheran Resources and that you have according to your post better functionality of L3 over against L4.
I happen to be a retired LCMS Pastor and have almost all of Concordia Publishing House Resources except a few commentaries that I haven't been able to afford yet.
I also, along with you have Luther's Works Recently my wife and I gifted our Pastor (we live in Ontario, Canada just east of Toronto) a bunch of electronic books from CPH including Luther's works. He's a young guy, about 50 and never used Logos before until I introduced him to it. Both he and I actually prefer L4 over L3 even though both of us have both on our computers. Now that L5 is out, I find it is still faster yet than L4.
I use cCleaner and Defragler regularly and would be very happy to post back a forth a wee bit with you in case you desire it and would like to take a look at L4 again. I've been using Logos for almost 20 years now and own Portfolio and lots of other resources. If you'd like I could definitely try helping your maximise your Logos usage.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Super Tramp said:
- The basic Logos search engine has always been free and still is with L5
- The basic, free, L5 search engine has not been released for download yet.
- Logos 5 has some enhancements that use some (not free) databases. If you choose not to upgrade to L5 with all the bells & whistles, and go with the free software instead, you will not experience the full capabilities of L5
Once you work past the user reactions, hype, frustration, anger, disappointment, etc. etc. what Super Tramp says is spot on.
It's is as others have said the process and or methodology or philosophy of Logos which leaves me speechless time and time again. I am sorry to say I am sick and tired of hearing the phrase "I am sorry". If this phrase was counted up and paid for in cents and dollars I fear I'd be a rich man but the phrase itself, I am sorry to say [;)] has been maligned and gutted of meaning. Here's a one-liner for you; "a throw away phrase in a throw away society, I am sorry to say."
I've looked at the options and have come back to Logos, there are no serious contenders IMHO.
Philosophy of Logos: This saddens me a great deal. We, the consumers, have been, I fear, turned into a commodity which is being consumed to ensure the survival of the Logos beast. I feel we as Logos "users" have been comodified into something "other" and are simply being exploited to serve personal gain and ambition all in the name of the Logos beast (even religion). As Logos has said, they have to sell books (translate "grow") to survive. Personally I think this is a floored strategy on the part of Logos. Unrestrained growth in a finite world is unsustainable. Period! The model needs to change. As a theologian I find this approach strangely repugnant. It makes me feel disappointed, saddened, diminished as a human being and child of God. This is not God's way! God's renewing Word continues to motivate me to strive for something better. To strive towards a goal which brings out the best in me/us, towards that something more than we thought we could ever possibly be by God's grace. But never at the "expense' of others. Unrestrained consumerism diminishes people, it expends people, it does not build them up. It seems I/we need to reclaim this dignity once again and it grieves me to say but I just can't see how the Logos business philosophy is achieving this in me/us. Eg. the amazing number of heated and even angry postings in this forum is a good indicator of what I am trying to convey here.
Electronic Library: This was a decision I made many years ago: This is a given. Space and the luxury of space for a large hard copy library in my context, hot humid, tropical climate, is not practical or viable. The ability to cross reference / search large numbers of books is nothing short of a miracle in modern technology and Logos is way out in front IMHO with a huge and rapidly growing library of books available at our fingertips. I still remember the awe and amazement on the face of a doctoral colleague seeing a search on the whole of Luther's works unfold before his eyes in a matter of seconds when to that point he'd spent months (literally) going through just the first half of Luther's Works to glean the research material he needed.
Future Direction: SO what is the way forward? There are no easy answers. This is the nature of the beast. [6] My approach after considerable angst is to mitigate my subscription to the Logos business philosophy as much as possible. "Cross grades" from now on. No "Upgrades" for me. I don't need 3,850 books. I'll only ever read maybe 100-200 of the total number of books in my entire Logos library in my entire lifetime and of the total only a small handful are truly relevant to my needs. The rest are just wasted space and wasted resources. The money could be better served by being used elsewhere. A 500 or 1000 or a xxx thousand book library is exactly that a Library. It's the stuff of Libraries but totally unnecessary for my personal use. We the Logos consumers need to ask ourselves is all this really necessary?
A case in point. Humanity has more information available at its fingertips than any generation in the history of man and what has this gained for us? Be honest with yourself? Take any newspaper read it and what do you see? Missionary work has opened my eyes to the "phantasy" of western consumerism on all levels. People here where I work, people who have so little are teaching me that contentment with what we have and a sure faith in God ARE enough! Indeed more than enough!
In conclusion: I'm sticking with Logos bible software. It's not perfect but it has enabled me to reduce my hard copy library to the size of a laptop. Truly amazing stuff! But I am making a conscious decision to mitigate my involvement in what I've already described above. I'm claiming this for myself and not "buying" into an unsustainable, unrestrained consumerism which I feel only compounds the problem we face in the west. Unrestrained consumerism on every level is literally killing us in the west and this is not what I want to pass on as a model in Christian life and living to my family and those around me.
With this rethinking on my part I am content with the Logos beast because the window is still open in the Logos business model for me to distance myself from a consumerist type business model. I.e. I can upgrade to the new Logos 5 engine for free and I can cross grade without having to "upgrade" my library with another 200+ unnecessary books and another serious hit to my limited funds.
But, and this is a clear warning to Logos, if Logos closes this option off, if I can't opt out of what I see is a consumerist business model I'll be selling my library. I choose to distance myself and refuse to be part of any such imposition by others on my self and person. I don't want to be party to the problem. I choose to offer and show to others there is a better way to life and living which breeds contentment and peace like nothing else. The Jesus way (from Eugene Peterson's book of the same title).
Blessings to you all in Jesus name.
Simon
Nan
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Thank you Simon.
Question/thoughts for others: What is all this mess about data bases?
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?
What are they and how are they not a function of the software searching the data of OUR books?
It's a question, I don't know the answer, so I'm asking.
I really don't like being forced to but a bunch of titles I don't need, nor want, just to get the full function of the software and, if the software is not fully functional without the Databases, how is it the databases are not part of the software?
Just asking .
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BTW, I probably use approx. 40-50 percent of the titles in my library, if that, the rest are just junk to me after owning them for a while.
Sadly, I must say: I don't think I am very wise.
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?
That is absolutely not true, and has been refuted numerous times on these forums. Why do you insist on publishing this?
Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?
There must be a dozen or more posts on these forums directly addressed at you, all explaining that that you do not have to spend any "thousands of dollars" to get these databases. All you need is the Crossgrade. So why do you keep spreading this misinformation? Do you really think it's nice to use Logos own forums to slander them?
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:What are they and how are they not a function of the software searching the data of OUR books?
The databases are content, just like your books are content. They're not "a function of the software". They don't search your books. They are searched, just like your books are. The software is free, content costs.
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:if the software is not fully functional without the Databases, how is it the databases are not part of the software?
The software is 100% functional without any of the databases, just as it is 100% functional without a Hebrew Bible, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the Works of Luther. Yes, you can't do a Hebrew Bible search without a Hebrew Bible, you can't follow a link to the CCC or read Luther's sermons, if you don't have those resources, but that doesn't mean the software isn't functional, just that you haven't bought the content you need to do those things. In the same way the software can't search a database if you don't have that database. It's as simple as that. You don't expect Logos to give you books for free, do you, so why do you expect them to give you databases for free?
If you don't understand what these databases are or do, why are you so desperate to get them? Two weeks ago you hadn't heard of them, and even now you don't seem to know what to do with them, yet you behave like you can't live without them.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Maybe if all customers could, like the people paying new money, get their hands on the new version, they could better understand what you understand. In the meantime people like me have to just guess how it all works.
A product I have invested thousands into in the past and I have to guess what it looks like now, how it works now and when I might get it in a format that does not require me to buy more resources I do not want.
I have read people who seem to know what they are talking about but state anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to after Christmas. I come to the forum in the morning hoping for some good news about crossgrades. I come to the forum in the evening hoping for some good news about crossgrades.
Imagine that little kid walking away from the ballpark cause there were just too many bigger kids already filling the teams. Kind of left out. You wouldn’t lecture him would you? It's as simple as that; there’s no room for you.
I work with SQL databases all day. I do not understand any of these explanations. I think you are saying that my 3 thousand dollar car will have a new engine that has the potential to run but if I do not buy gas from you I can only sit in it, move the seats around, call people on my Bluetooth and listen to the radio. The car won’t go anywhere till I pay for the content (gas).
I am tired of checking back regularly. I have cancelled all pre-Publication specials (including a 2 year old Alford set that lasted since 2010 through two versions of the product and still is not released). I have cancelled community bids. Hopefully sometime in the future I will mosey back by and find some good news. In the meantime I am strictly a spectator.
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Here, here [Y] on a brave stand.
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SHotchkiss said:
Maybe if all customers could, like the people paying new money, get their hands on the new version, they could better understand what you understand.
I don't have it any more than you do.
SHotchkiss said:I have read people who seem to know what they are talking about but state anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to after Christmas.
Logos answer was given yesterday:
Phil Gons said:Graeme Adams said:So, just to confirm we will have a cross-grade in a week?
No official commitment yet, but we're working on it now and could have it live on the website in the next week or two. Again, that's not a guarantee. That represents our current plans. We'll provide a concrete date as soon as it's available.
Graeme Adams said:Any indiction of costs for a 'full feature' cross-grade?
We're still working on the exact contents that the MCs will include. The smaller one, which might lack one or two features, will probably be between $75 and $150. The larger one, with all the features plus a few core resources, will probably be between $150 and $300, depending on which version of the software you're moving from. For Logos 4 users, it'll be on the lower end of those ranges. For Logos 3, it'll be a bit more expensive. For Logos 2 users, even more.
For Logos 5 Starter to Silver users who are just looking to pick up the missing features, it'll be significantly lower. Dynamic pricing will apply to both products, so the ownership discount will be applied as appropriate.
And remember, Logos came out with 4.6a less than two weeks ago. Normally you wouldn't have gotten another update until January or so.
SHotchkiss said:I think you are saying that my 3 thousand dollar car will have a new engine that has the potential to run but if I do not buy gas from you I can only sit in it, move the seats around, call people on my Bluetooth and listen to the radio. The car won’t go anywhere till I pay for the content (gas).
No, they're saying that the brand new engine that they put in for free will make your car run better than ever. You just won't get the fancy DVD-player for the kids in the back seat unless you pay a little extra.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Thanks for updating us. I have a question of clarification. Looking at L5, I want some (or all) of the new databases, but I really don't need many new books. However, I am considering an\ slight upgrade (scholar's to starter or bronze), funds are limited right now. My question is that if I do this, will the databases NOT offered in bronze be available individually (I think the first day I was seeing them around $20 for some of them) but I suspect due to volume they were removed, etc.)?
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Thomas Thornhill said:
will the databases NOT offered in bronze be available individually
Not individually, but as Phil stated in the quote I gave above:
Phil Gons said:We're still working on the exact contents that the MCs will include. The smaller one, which might lack one or two features, will probably be between $75 and $150. The larger one, with all the features plus a few core resources, will probably be between $150 and $300, depending on which version of the software you're moving from. For Logos 4 users, it'll be on the lower end of those ranges. For Logos 3, it'll be a bit more expensive. For Logos 2 users, even more.
For Logos 5 Starter to Silver users who are just looking to pick up the missing features, it'll be significantly lower. Dynamic pricing will apply to both products, so the ownership discount will be applied as appropriate.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Thanks Phil. I'll do something soon. Have a good night (or shall I say morning).[:D]
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Oops. Sorry. Thanks #4228. [:)]
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I also am unhappy. I purchased an LE edition and added the Early Church Fathers to it. I also got to find out over the past months that searching in Logos 4 is effectively broken. I should not have to go the internet to do word or phrase searches then come back to Logos to go to the actual passages. The Logos search engine in 4 is way too literal and goes not properly handle the *like* function so crucial to proper searching.
So I get the email that Logos 5 is out, and see in the website promos that they reworked the search into something more rational. Cool I think - then I discover my MINIMUM cost to get that item (which should be a bug fix) is over $300 and I can't even tell if I would still have my ECF books.
Sorry Logos but this looks and feels like a scam. I expected better from fellow Christians.
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Joel Tamburo said:
I also am unhappy. I purchased an LE edition and added the Early Church Fathers to it. I also got to find out over the past months that searching in Logos 4 is effectively broken. I should not have to go the internet to do word or phrase searches then come back to Logos to go to the actual passages.
doesn't sound like a good experience at all. What happened--can you tell a little more about it?
Joel Tamburo said:The Logos search engine in 4 is way too literal and goes not properly handle the *like* function so crucial to proper searching.
I'd like to know a little more about this as well--btw, the new databases should help complexify the types of searches we can do. But I am still wondering what you mean by "too literal."
Joel Tamburo said:So I get the email that Logos 5 is out, and see in the website promos that they reworked the search into something more rational.
i see you have a glimpse of the new possibilities.
Joel Tamburo said:Cool I think - then I discover my MINIMUM cost to get that item (which should be a bug fix) is over $300
that is for a bunch of resources additionally to what you own (depending on your package):commentaries, theology, etc. It also includes hand-built databases on a variety of fronts to help do the things you are wanting, and more. HOWEVER, if you note above, and on other threads, if you can be patient, maybe for just a few weeks, a free engine will be available (better performance, new interface, etc) or you will have the option for minimal crossgrades that will allow you to purchase the new databases without also investing in a lot of resources. Those might be options you will find very helpful to you.
Joel Tamburo said:and I can't even tell if I would still have my ECF books.
maybe other software does that, but in Logos, you never lose your already purchased resources, even if the publisher would take away new purchase rights. I have commentary sets no longer offered by Logos, and have gone through 2 or 3 upgrades with them. Happy Day! [:)]
Joel Tamburo said:Sorry Logos but this looks and feels like a scam
thank you for being so frank and forthright. I hope some of my comments have helped you see that you are not being scammed, but in fact have several choices available and coming soon, and are not going to lose anything you have purchased. Hopefully that will be some relief to you.
Joel Tamburo said:I expected better from fellow Christians.
I have experienced my fellow brothers, sisters, and friends at Logos to be quite generous, responsive, and hard-working. They are pretty human, but maybe you will also experience that they will do right by you. Keep posting, stay in touch! Thanks.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Joel Tamburo said:
I also got to find out over the past months that searching in Logos 4 is effectively broken.
Joel, welcome to the Logos user forum.
We try to help each other here with using the software, and getting it to run in case of problems. Often, learning the way something works in a complex software helps a lot - sometimes we find small bugs and help the developers to re-create the specific issue in order to fix it. Now I don't recall anything even remotely suggesting that "searching is broken" (actually a bible study software is foremost about searching in the firstplace) from other users, and it seems you never made your way here to raise a bug.
Joel Tamburo said:The Logos search engine in 4 is way too literal and goes not properly handle the *like* function so crucial to proper searching.
I'd think "like" is an advanced search feature that has a lot to do with the underlying data the search is running against. Most often it is realized internally as string comparisons with wildcards, which actually is something Logos does support. Maybe its a problem of search syntax you have - can you give some examples what you want to search for?
Joel Tamburo said:I discover my MINIMUM cost to get that item (which should be a bug fix) is over $300 and I can't even tell if I would still have my ECF books.
Joel, I believe a google search of the forum posts, new Logos websites and Logos blog entries over the last week would give a vast amount of hits like "you'll not lose any of your books". Also many, maybe even more would come up like "You'll only pay for additional books".
There will be a free engine shortly which will not give you more books or new databases (and thus only a minimum of new features). From your post I can't really tell which item you're interested in. If it is searching for subject and object of clauses - thus finding e.g. sentences where Paul speaks of himself, using "I" - this new feature is AFAIK unique to Logos, since it is powered from a new database that Logos developed. You won't find it anyplace else. To have this, those who don't want to buy additional books will get a Mimimum Crossgrade.
There's no indication that there's a minimum cost to get a bug fix for over $300 - it seems your unhappiness may come from incomplete information rather than soemone trying to scam you.
Please come back if you need additional info other users could give you - or ask Logos directly.
Have joy in the Lord!
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I have come in late here only recently finding out about Logos 5 recently. I apologise if this repeats some earlier points but I find it difficult to absorb all the points in this forum item. I too would be reluctant to move to L5. It is not the cost so much as all newer software costs something. There are other my reason for my caution which feeds my disappointment.
I have still not mastered L4. Having also spent $$$ on some of the training aids which I am still working through I feel moving to L5 would be a waste of money let alone the daunting task of trying to master new processes all together if the change from L3 to L4 is any gauge.
I was somewhat taken back by the what appeared to me a sudden appearance of L5. It may have been announced earlier but I do not read forums regularly because I find a number difficult to appreciate. It is a little off putting when the time between versions of the software is a lot sooner than from when prepublications are offered to when they become available.
While not completely L5, there are associated issues with Logos which I find frustrating which don't appear to being addressed. If you change your email login the count of forum entries restarts. You email address cannot be changed on your home page. The website still does not recognise all the items you purchase particularly those broken from collections. After shopping on line and you add to cart when you click on more shopping it sends you back to the beginning of the list not to the last point. (If you have just been browsing through pages of items and come upon an item you have not seen or known about before this is very annoying). When you change your email you get multiple emails for the same thing. You get offers for items you already have. You cannot get a deal for collections that include items you already have. I can understand that somethings particularly bigger things have priority but when minor things are not looked at over a period of time one becomes frustrated at least.
These frustrations together with my earlier reservations means I will also wait.
Colin
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