Logos is NOT a Ministry

The current Logos 5 mess, including an almost total disregard for previous investment on the part of many users in terms of pricing.

what part of your Logos 4 software investment has been disabled?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413937#Comment_413937

what part of your Logos 4 software investment has been disabled?

So your answer is --it doesn't matter what Logos does, so long as they don't disable your current software? They could release a new version of the software that only non-users could buy, and that would be fine, because they've not actually disabled your current software.

In other words, your answer is to mock.

Sorry, but my investment is in MORE than a software package. It's in resources, and time, and the environment at large, not in a specific piece of software. A company that considers itself a "Christian" company should respect those investments, and not make cheap excuses like, "your Logos 4 hasn't been disabled, has it?"

And, since you've entered the conversation with such wise and wonderful words, I take it that you object to my original contention --that Logos is not a ministry, but a business that should be called on its bad decisions, like any other business.

Which means you now get to explain why you think Logos is a ministry, rather than a business.

I'm waiting.

I think I disagree with your definition of the word "ministry". Perhaps this thread should be relabeled "Logos does not fit within my understanding of a Ministry"

the Logos business model does assist in my ability to learn and proclaim God's Word accurately and in that sense ministers to me and the congregation I serve.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413949#Comment_413949

I think I disagree with your definition of the word "ministry".

Well, you think a "ministry" is in business to make a profit first? Did you read Bob's very own blog post?

With your definition, Google is a ministry, because it helps me to find information on the Internet that helps me learn more as a Christian, and Microsoft is a ministry because I use Word to write papers for school. I think your definition of "ministry," in return, might be a bit to broad.

Wes Saad

Russ,

I've not been silent when Logos does things that I find annoying or bad practice. But what gets me in much of the discussion over Logos 5 is most people are arguing inaccuracies. Part of this is Logos' fault: some things could have been communicated better - much better. But the information is out there, both on the Logos website and on the forums (over and over again) and yet people continue to bash Logos for issues that aren't real.

So, for instance, your comment about disregarding previous investment is not accurate. They have disregarded nothing and even offer discounts on new investments because of previous investments.

And how has Logos restricted anyone sharing anything they create? They have talked about future limitations so that they don't provide the means for free products to compete with their products - that only makes good business sense. They don't want to provide the medium by which you keep them from selling books. To some degree they already provide that medium by even giving the tools to create personal books. But you will not be stopped from sharing book files through other means, and as far as I know they are not now doing anything to restrict people.

As for privacy concerns, Logos 5 includes new options that I think will help many with concerns. Under Settings they have the "Send Feedback" option with choices "All, Anonymous, and None". Don't want them getting any info on your usage? Just set that to none. Don't mind them having it so long as it's private? Set it anonymous.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413953#Comment_413953

Chris ... not disagreeing with your points but on your last paragraph, you might want to take a look at Logos4.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413953#Comment_413953

So, for instance, your comment about disregarding previous investment is not accurate. They have disregarded nothing and even offer discounts on new investments because of previous investments.

Again, you're talking in terms of being able to use existing books. I'm arguing there's more to the investment than just the books.

And how has Logos restricted anyone sharing anything they create?

Logos has clearly said they did not intend for PBB to be used for sharing books in the public domain which they also sell. This has been made clear many times.

As for privacy concerns, Logos 5 includes new options that I think will help many with concerns. Under Settings they have the "Send Feedback" option with choices "All, Anonymous, and None". Don't want them getting any info on your usage? Just set that to none. Don't mind them having it so long as it's private? Set it anonymous.

If you think this addresses the privacy concerns I (and many others) have, then you've not read those threads. It's not about the privacy of usage statistics.

And, I'll ask again on this thread:

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413967#Comment_413967

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

Apologies, but I do not understand your position or your assertion (I think there may be a typos). Are you suggesting that Logos is a business? If so, I imagine you would receive general agreement from both within and without the company.

Apologies if I have misunderstood you.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413967#Comment_413967

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

In your understanding, are "business" and "ministry" mutually exclusive domains?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413967#Comment_413967

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

In your understanding, are "business" and "ministry" mutually exclusive domains?

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413967#Comment_413967

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

I actually agree with you there. Logos is not a ministry, it is a business. Their business helps my ministry and those in their business can see their work as a kind of ministry, but Logos itself is a business and operates as such, which makes its actions quite understandable.

Logos has clearly said they did not intend for PBB to be used for sharing books in the public domain which they also sell. This has been made clear many times.

They have talked about a possible upcoming store of sorts where people can sell or distribute pbb's that they create. They have said they don't intend this to be used to distribute books that compete with their own versions, so people will not be able to use the hypothetical Logos distribution method to compete with Logos. This is no surprise. And I'm not aware that Logos has ever said they would seek to restrict people from distributing their pbb's through other means.

Again, you're talking in terms of being able to use existing books. I'm arguing there's more to the investment than just the books.

So what else do you have in mind?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413986#Comment_413986

In your understanding, are "business" and "ministry" mutually exclusive domains?

No, but the general point is this:

We need to stop treating Logos, the company, with "kid gloves," just because we hold the mindset that they are a "Christian company," with our best interests at heart.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413943#Comment_413943

So your answer is --it doesn't matter what Logos does, so long as they don't disable your current software? They could release a new version of the software that only non-users could buy, and that would be fine, because they've not actually disabled your current software.

In other words, your answer is to mock.

I am very sorry. That is not at all my intention. Russ I have typed the same answers to the same questions so many times at this point that it is hard to see new nuances to a question.

Let me try my answer this way with a bit of an assumption. You purchased L4, which consists of a number of resource titles for which you paid, and an engine that drives them. True the resources and the engine require each other to be useful. So we view it all as one package.

As I understand it, L4 is not being deleted from Logos, that engine will continue, presumably for many years to run and read books and all that.

L5 coming along does not invalidate L4. L4 will continue to run and won't be disabled. This is the point I hoped to make, but failed at. And apparently was not your concern. In other words, I understand that you know L4 will continue to work.

Here is the disconnect for me though. L5 is a new product. I cannot see how issuing a new product that does not disable your prior investment expresses a total disregard for previous investment in terms of pricing.

But every single upgrade in the packages is weighed against those former purchases, and nobody is buying a second license of any book they already own. Dan Pritchett explained the calculator at least somewhat. So, all of your former purchases are in fact being taken into consideration.

Help me understand. What would change this for you?

And, since you've entered the conversation with such wise and wonderful words, I take it that you object to my original contention --that Logos is not a ministry, but a business that should be called on its bad decisions, like any other business.

Not at all. As I stated above wise and wonderful do not describe my words as you know. Of course Logos is a business. Of course bad business decisions should be spoken about. I have already said, for example, many times that naming the new package similarly to the old ones is a mistake. IOW I called them on a bad decision.

AND I support, nay, encourage your right to do so, even here, especially here.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413993#Comment_413993

And I'm not aware that Logos has ever said they would seek to restrict people from distributing their pbb's through other means.

And they have clearly said they will not tolerate web sites that post PBBs of books they sell, nor will they tolerate posting links to PBBs of books they sell.

So what else do you have in mind?

My point is that Logos seems to be losing sight of their customers at large, and your answer is, "give me dates, times, and specifics." I think the forums are full of dates, times, and specifics, if you want to look. There are tons of questions, suggestions, and thoughts here.

I would start with a little respect for those who have spent tens of thousands in previous years, rather than forcing them to wait for an indeterminate amount of time for the possibility of an upgrade path that hasn't been defined yet. But that's just one example --respecting the privacy of users, showing some concern for the initial cost of the product, and allowing an ecosystem to exist (rather than trying sop every last cent out of every possible market), or not being so gruff when someone calls to ask about upgrading, or not trying to pressure them into upgrading (both of which I have experienced, and others have reported).

But you're not going to understand if you want to reduce everything to a specific instance, because if you focus on the leaves, you can always lose sight of the forest.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413995#Comment_413995

I choose to allow Col 4:6 to shape the way I speak with others, whether it be an individual or a representative of a "business"

I don't know what leads you to believe Logos wants to be handled with kid gloves. At their expense they host these forums and ask employees to peruse these posts to listen for ways to improve their products. Bob has admitted mistakes and ( in my opinion) goes above and beyond in attempts to correct service failures.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414008#Comment_414008

But every single upgrade in the packages is weighed against those former purchases, and nobody is buying a second license of any book they already own. Dan Pritchett explained the calculator at least somewhat. So, all of your former purchases are in fact being taken into consideration.

I suppose one question I would have for Logos is --at what point of value? I'm glad they're counting my previous purchases in some way, but are they simply removing the cost from the package, or are they doing some fancy math at some point? I find the upgrades extremely expensive, myself --I can't imagine how a pastor or a seminary student who paid for Logos a year ago could even possibly come close to affording what Logos wants to charge.

So, sorry, but I don't see a lot of respect for current customers in the process as they've laid it out. If this were the first time, I'd just shrug my shoulders and move on ---but this seems to be becoming a pattern of late, IMHO.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414022#Comment_414022

I don't know what leads you to believe Logos wants to be handled with kid gloves.

I don't think Logos appeals to this --but I see a lot of users here on the forums who do.

At their expense they host these forums and ask employees to peruse these posts to listen for ways to improve their products.

I'll be bold and say these forums don't cost Logos a penny, in the long run --so this is one of those instances where I think people attribute a bit of a "halo" to Logos that shouldn't be there. I think you might fail to understand how much money Logos actually makes off these forums, and how much they save in terms of reduced support costs. I've done customer support before, and I can tell you that these types of forums easily pay for themselves.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414023#Comment_414023

I suppose one question I would have for Logos is --at what point of value?

Certainly a question I cannot answer.

I do intend, later, to load up the offers page for me on a spreadsheet of sorts and try to figure out precisely this as it relates to me. for instance UpgradePrice/TotalNewBooks=PerBookCost or something like that. One user did report this morning that their upgrade came to about $5 per book. Of course some books are worth $0 and others are worth $50.

I find the upgrades extremely expensive, myself --I can't imagine how a pastor or a seminary student who paid for Logos a year ago could even possibly come close to affording what Logos wants to charge.

So, sorry, but I don't see a lot of respect for current customers in the process as they've laid it out.

I'm pondering this one "out loud" here. I agree that when I purchase my upgrade it is going to hurt the old wallet. I wonder if the issue and related solution is size of the upgrades.

I keep running into related issues (not the same one you're raising here, I think) that indicates the following thought flow:

I own (Scholars Gold JG) and sliding over to Gold L5 is cost prohibitive.
But going from my current package to "Bronz L5" feels like a step down because the name has changed.
Some appear to not even want the books there, just the name "Gold" to continue, thus they feel cheated.

Those three thought points are my main reason why I do not like the naming scheme. I have no idea what I would have suggested otherwise, but there you have it.

I think I'm rambling so I'll stop now.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414035#Comment_414035

I think you might fail to understand how much money Logos actually makes off these forums, and how much they save in terms of reduced support costs. I've done customer support before, and I can tell you that these types of forums easily pay for themselves.

I resemble that remark.

Fred Chapman

Logos is not a ministry.

I don't think Bob (or any other Logos employee) has ever claimed they were anything other than a for profit business that develops tools and resources to support a diverse user base, including those who serve in ministry.

Selling public domain books, and restricting individual users from coding those same books up on their own time and sharing them.

Logos provides it users with a tool (Personal Book Builder) to create as many PB's as you desire to create. As for sharing, no one is able to share PB's at this time, but that is coming. When it does come, Bob has stated that they would not host PB's that compete with products they sell. Why should they? Should Microsoft provide space on their servers for OpenOffice?

Totally ignoring those with privacy concerns --to the point of mocking

This horse has been beaten until it was dead twice. If you are going to engage in activity associated with cloud technology, you should probably not include information you do not want there. Not to mention, I doubt anyone is sifting through your notes, prayer lists, or other information to see what you're saying or thinking.

The current Logos 5 mess, including an almost total disregard for previous investment on the part of many users in terms of pricing.

What mess? This was a massive roll out of a new and complex product. I am sure with each roll out the Logos folks are learning what works and what doesn't. A lot of people worked many, many hours this week to deliver this new product to their customers. Not every aspect of the roll out was perfect, but they had their people in place to fix it.

In what way did they disregard your investment. Did you lose existing resources or functionality? I suspect the answer is no. Are you, I, or any of us "entitled" to the new technology and products? No. If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, do not buy it. If you decide you want it later, I'm sure they would be happy to sell it to you.

Logos is a business that provides many of us with valuable tools and resources for a profit. I want them to be profitable so they can continue to cover their costs, higher the best people they can get, and invest in tools that may take years to produce revenue.

I am a firm believer that the market is always right. A company that provides a product or service people are willing to pay for at the price point the company sets, that company will succeed. If they do not provide that product for a price people are willing to pay, that company will fail. Bob knows that and has (with a few mistakes along the way by his own admission) been good at it. I hope that trend continues for many years to come.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414043#Comment_414043

Some appear to not even want the books there, just the name "Gold" to continue, thus they feel cheated.

I would argue the biggest mistakes in this specific situation are:

Some tools are only available with Gold. This isn't about resources, I'm forced to Gold if I want better tools for study. This isn't something I can (apparently) do over time, etc., it's tied to the package.
Existing users, users who don't have the money to upgrade, should have been given at least equal time with users willing to shell out thousands more.

But again, this is just one point in many points --the argument over privacy in notes, the selling of public domain material, and many others have, over the years, piece by piece, damaged my view of Logos as a company. The question --is it all about the money (as Bob's blog post says)? Is Logos losing sight of the bigger picture here?

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414071#Comment_414071

Existing users, users who don't have the money to upgrade, should have been given at least equal time with users willing to shell out thousands more.

I would disagree. Logos has the right and prerogative to choose who will receive new software. They made a wise choice in proactively reaching out to those with large libraries who were willing to expand their library first. This allowed a small group of people who had a very large amount of data to download to get it all done at one time. These buyers typically take the most time from a sales perspective as well. Once they have cleared out, everyone will get a shot at upgrading either with a cross grade or the free engine.

Bob cares greatly and his attention to the forums and other outlets shows that. How many other CEO's do you know trolling the boards answering questions? Not many. We often forget we don't deserve anything but hell and death. Yet, God has been merciful to us. Why can that one truth not leave us just grateful to breath let alone have tools to study the Word: paid or otherwise.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414057#Comment_414057

This horse has been beaten until it was dead twice. If you are going to engage in activity associated with cloud technology, you should probably not include information you do not want there. Not to mention, I doubt anyone is sifting through your notes, prayer lists, or other information to see what you're saying or thinking.

Yep, Google doesn't make a penny off of tracking what people are thinking. Nor Facebook. Not one penny. You can only make money off someone's "real" data; it's only worth protecting if you (Fred) think it's worth protecting. And information, once stored in "the cloud," can never be leaked to some company other than Logos, and Logos will never be bought, and their servers will never be broken in to, or compromised, in any way.

Logos provides it users with a tool (Personal Book Builder) to create as many PB's as you desire to create. As for sharing, no one is able to share PB's at this time, but that is coming. When it does come, Bob has stated that they would not host PB's that compete with products they sell.

Bob has gone farther than this, in fact, several times, in his statements about the PBB.

Logos is a business that provides many of us with valuable tools and resources for a profit.

Then you would agree that the many people who put a halo over them for being a "Christian company," are wrong for doing so. Thank you for agreeing on that point, at least.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414087#Comment_414087

Logos has the right and prerogative to choose who will receive new software.

Bob cares greatly and his attention to the forums and other outlets shows that.

So in one breath you say that Logos has the right to choose what their users receive, and the next that Bob is some sort of saint, and we should be happy and grateful for whatever crumbs he might choose to throw our way (while you're comparing using Logos to the gift of salvation???).

This is specifically the sort of "halo effect," that I disagree with.

Logos is a business, not a ministry.

BTW, the CEO of a rather large company I used to work for used to troll the phone lines when I was working support. Another large company I've worked with required all executives to work "on the floor" for at least a week out of every year. I don't think the attributes you're talking about are something that can be attributed to Logos being a Christian company, but rather just Logos being led by business leaders who believe that these things will maximize their income.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414071#Comment_414071

Russ, you are completely correct that we're a business, and need to make a profit. That's why we keep trying to offer products that incentivize people to purchase new content, which is where we make the money that funds the business.

Technically, profit is income - expenses, so EVERY organization -- including your family and your church and a soup kitchen -- has to make a profit, or break-even. A church can count non-financial output (changed lives) as the profit, but still has to reach at least break-even on money: it can't long go sending out more dollars than come in.

In a business the output is also sometimes non-financial -- a fun job, rewarding work, etc. -- but since we can't ask for donations, and since working in most businesses is a choice driven more by financial needs than emotional / ministry / donated-labor reasons, we try harder to beat break-even with cash, in addition to the "non-monetary" profit of our labors.

We have exchanged many emails and even spoken by phone; I am pretty certain by this point that I'm never going to make you truly happy with how we run this business, and that's fine. Lots of people don't like lots of businesses. Businesses have to make enough customers happy to stay in business -- and we certainly must -- but it's impossible to make every customer happy, and sometimes you have to live with that.

But I do want to make as many happy as I can, so I'll answer some of your points:

Some tools are only available with Gold. This isn't about resources, I'm forced to Gold if I want better tools for study.

The only "tools" only available in Gold, I believe, are actually tied to content. So it is about resources -- you need those content resources to use those tools, and we spent a lot to create them and need to sell them. At the moment one of them is only sold in Gold -- which I agree can be an expensive upgrade for many users -- but in time they'll be available at different prices.

As for cloud storage / sync, and other things you don't like, I'm sorry we disagree, but I think that's just an area we're not -- even after our phone conversations -- ever going to agree on. It reminds me of the "moo shu pizza". My favorite pizza at the local pizza joint was taken off the menu. I complained. Others agreed. I met the owner and petitioned him. I explained that it was unique and good and the reason I went there over other places, and that he'd lose lots of business by not having it. I can't imagine why he even sold any other pizza since the moo shu was so superior. But he claimed to know things I didn't: actual sales figures, what other customers liked / didn't like, etc. He never won me over. I rarely eat there anymore. I don't take large groups to lunch there. But he's not out of business, even without the moo shu.

Inexplicable to me. How can these other people eat those other pizzas?

Maybe "let me manage my own data without the cloud", etc., is your moo shu pizza? :-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414162#Comment_414162

Bob:

Thanks for replying to this thread. Several points:

In a business the output is also sometimes non-financial...

And sometimes software investment is more than just books or resources. There's always been an impression of a "going forward relationship" with Logos. That impression is being destroyed even as we trade forum posts.

The only "tools" only available in Gold, I believe, are actually tied to content.

Then you need to make that clear on the web page. Not that I can imagine how a phrase search engine would be tied to content.

As for cloud storage / sync, and other things you don't like, I'm sorry we disagree, but I think that's just an area we're not -- even after our phone conversations -- ever going to agree on.

What I have always found wrong about this argument is:

You think the entire issue is about how many people want something, or how much money can be made off of it. OTOH, many users, and even Logos itself, often acts as though it's been given a "public trust." IMHO, you need to go farther than doing what you think you can make money off of in this case, and be a public voice for protecting data in the cloud to a community that clearly doesn't understand the issues involved.
If you don't want to give users tools to manage what data goes to the cloud and what doesn't, then at least give us tools to make Logos easier to use with other software that does. I've asked for one specific feature that should be easy as dirt to implement, and never even received a reply from anyone at Logos.

In short, building features isn't always just about doing what will make you the most money --particularly when you claim to be a Christian company. Just like building a church isn't always about jamming the pews with as many people as you possibly can every Sunday morning. Success, for a Christian, must reach higher than that.

Don't lose the focus on doing the right thing for customers because you believe that if you're making more money, you must be doing the right things.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414205#Comment_414205

Not that I can imagine how a phrase search engine would be tied to content.

This. like many of the new features, is tied to databases of data that Logos hand-coded. Because hand-coded requires more human resource costs, this data is being sold at a higher cost for the new feature than previous new features which were simply new algorithms.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414205#Comment_414205

Not that I can imagine how a phrase search engine would be tied to content.

I'm sorry if the description is confusing. The software has been able to search for phrases for 21 years -- just put the phrase in double-quotes. The new feature is support for a human-edited, manually described lexicon of significant biblical phrases. "Kingdom of God", "Kingdom of Heaven", etc. We've manually identified a thousand significant phrases, connected their Greek and Hebrew instances to the various English renderings, written descriptions for the phrases, and integrated them into relevant guides.

In the future you'll have more capabilities; I expect we'll support finding a phrase across multiple translations, even if the translators modified it slightly in different passages or contexts or versions.

I've asked for one specific feature that should be easy as dirt to implement, and never even received a reply from anyone at Logos.

I assume you're talking about your "don't sync to the cloud" / "local backup" feature, and I think you've had lots of discussion and reply. (If it's something else, email me and I promise a reply.) And I think we've talked this feature to the ground; it's not about how easy it is or isn't to implement, it's about the many reasons we don't think it's a good idea overall.

And I think your insistence -- since 2009, as I recall -- that this is akin to a 'moral issue', rather than a disagreement about what features we should offer, is something I can't agree to. I respect your feelings about the important of data security and the dangers of the cloud, but I don't agree that we need to "be a public voice" on your particular hot-button issue. And I thin that in the last 3 years, despite hiccups and some bad press, the users (of all tech products) have spoken very clearly that they like "the cloud", even with its flaws.

I'm out of energy for that particular discussion... I've already gone too far -- I need to save my strength for explaining upgrades! :-)

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414240#Comment_414240

I need to save my strength for explaining upgrades!

Or the lack thereof... [:D]

Donnie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414240#Comment_414240

I assume you're talking about your "don't sync to the cloud" / "local backup" feature, and I think you've had lots of discussion and reply.

Actually, I'm not. It's indicative that you don't know what my other feature requests have been in this area.

I don't agree that we need to "be a public voice" on your particular hot-button issue.

It's not just my "hot button issue."

But that's okay, you're going to discover on your own how fickle the cloud is. I just hope you don't take a lot of other folks with your in your insistence on treating this as an issue about making more money, rather than doing the right thing. Of course, cloud is a much larger discussion --since it's one of my specific areas of research now, I probably have a better view of what's going on there than you might imagine. The picture isn't nearly as rosy as you paint.

Anyway --there is a moral dimension to business beyond simply making more money and following the laws. But this line of reasoning --that there are no moral issues at stake-- is precisely why I've learned to enjoy the software while distrusting the company, as many other users I know. If you're happy with that reputation (and I suppose you are, so long as you're making more money), then keep at it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414240#Comment_414240

the users (of all tech products) have spoken very clearly that they like "the cloud", even with its flaws.

As one who never thought the cloud would matter either way to me, I'm one who is dependent on my Kindle Cloud, on my Zotero cloud, and now even my Microsoft Officee 2013 (beta) cloud. The only cloud product I use in which the cloud hasn't become essential is my calendar.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414257#Comment_414257

As one who never thought the cloud would matter either way to me, I'm one who is dependent on my Kindle Cloud, on my Zotero cloud, and now even my Microsoft Officee 2013 (beta) cloud. The only cloud product I use in which the cloud hasn't become essential is my calendar.

Good for you --you get to sell all your information to others so you can have a little convenience. There's some quote in the back of my mind about security and freedom that you might want to try and find.

When the service is free, you are the product.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414256#Comment_414256

is precisely why I've learned to enjoy the software while distrusting the company.

Speaking strictly for myself as a "little old lady in walking shoes", I can honestly say this is why I have learned to simply accept people and businesses as they are and concentrate my energy where it can be useful especially useful for God's purposes. In my particular case that means leaving all the worrying to my 97 year old Mother and 75 year old sister. They are far better at it than I.[;)]

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414256#Comment_414256

Russ,

Your assuming that all users like you don't want our stuff on the cloud. Well some of us do. I use both a MacBook Pro and an iPad. I want my documents and mark-ups synced. If I take my notes on my desktop where I have more robust research features I want my notes added to my iPad when I need it at church. You may not want to have your stuff on the cloud. But it's pretty arrogant to say that Bob is not doing the morally right thing by not doing what you want. A morally right thing would be true for everyone...what you want is your personal preference.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414269#Comment_414269

Your assuming that all users like you don't want our stuff on the cloud.

No, I'm assuming users should have the tools and options available to choose what they want to put in the cloud and still get full use out of the software they purchase.

As for "morally right," I think you're being pretty arrogant in your reaction to my statement

But I'm not going to wander any more into the weeds on this discussion --I was trying to point out why I'm struggling to trust Logos as a company, and folks want to turn the discussion into how wonderful the cloud is. Believe away, but remember that when a cloud comes to earth, they call it fog.

Tony Thomas

In case you missed the point, just take a look at Bob's latest blog post:

http://firesomeonetoday.com/profit_is_why_you_are_in_business.html

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Bob's post was very informative.

However, my experience has shown if you PUT CUSTOMERS FIRST, then profit will take care of itself.

Perhaps Logos needs to fall in love with its customers a bit more...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414263#Comment_414263

security and freedom that you might want to try and find.

I am well supplied on both sides including the security of well-informed decisions (IT professional) and being of an age that gives me relatively few responsibilities - except for those I choose for moral or pleasure reasons. Luckily for me the moral and pleasure are usually in sync ... another advantage of age.[;)]