Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!
Comments
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Suggest ....... Thankful for.......
I'm grateful and thankful for you KS4J.... I can't count how many times I've read a post from you that gently encouraged a frustrated user and reminded us all (perhaps me most of all) how very thankful we should be for grace in general and Logos software specifically. AND for users like you. Bless you my brother!
--Bro. Mark
"I read dead people..."
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Many of us have felt a range of emotions over the way the launch of the L5 was handled and have expressed them in no uncertain terms. We all "know" what Bob and his management team should have done and our "should haves" are related to our own interests and expectations. But the reality is none of us knows what issues and concerns Bob and his team were wrestling with, what the capacity of Logos is in terms of what they could role out at any given moment of time and why the decision to launch in this particular way was taken. We just were not standing in his shoes making a decision that would have to include consideration for customers, staff and the families who depend on them, various costs, finance, etc.
But here's what we do know
- Logos has never sold us a bad product. When I first started to explore bible software in the early 90s the store I inquired from told me, "Buy Logos and if you can't afford to wait until you can!" I waited a few months and I bought Logos. That's close to 20 years ago and I've never had a genuine reason to regret that decision. And I've never had to consider an alternative
- Customer service and support from Logos for those of us who have had to use it has always been first class. They've always been approachable and as accommodating to our needs as they could be.
- Logos has won awards, not only for its products but as an employer too, which gives us an insight into the company we're dealing with.
- Bob reads the forums and personally responds to many of the posts. How many CEOs do that?
Bob has been honest with us and told us at least some of the "whys" of the launch. He has put his hands up and admitted he got it wrong. It takes a big person to do that. The kind of responses he has been making to posts indicate that he is genuinely listening to our concerns, hurts and disappointments.
At the end of the day all of us have to admit admit that in Logos, whether Libronix, Logos 4 or Logos 5 we have a great product that has simplified and improved our study and research. It is precisely because we're so happy with this tool that we're so upset about having to stand in line to get it. We're chaffing at the bit to try out the latest improvements. There is one thing, I think, that we can be certain about. Logos will take to heart the issues we've expressed and future launches will be more to our liking.
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Bob,
As a long time LOGOS user, I greatly appreciate you stepping and helping clarify things that make total sense from within LOGOS, but may be confusing to us on the outside. Your decision to make the software available and sell content is one of the main reasons I started my investment into LOGOS.
Though the packages are at a good price mfor the number of resources. I, like many others, do not have the finances to buy one of those packages. I am glad that you do understand that and look forward to getting the crossgrade. I am hoping that the Minimum Crossgrade will be feasible when it comes out.
I also do not take issues with LOGOS paying the bills because, I for one, want LOGOS to be around for a long time.
Thanks again Bob, as a former Logos Ambassador, and Net Promoter for LOGOS. Have a blessed day.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Thanks for the clarification. Am I correct that the only thing I am missing by not upgrading to Gold is the Bible Sense Lexicon?
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Tim Engwer said:
Thanks for the clarification. Am I correct that the only thing I am missing by not upgrading to Gold is the Bible Sense Lexicon?
Effectively, that is correct in terms of features and datasets
The consequence of not having the BSL means that you don't have access to the Sense section in the BWS.
neither, in the short-term do you have access to Septuagint translation in BWS - this currently is available in Diamond up - but this will be added back in in the future.
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I have to say, Manila Dave, that your post really was a relief.... the lack of grace displayed in these forums the past few days has been so disappointing and discouraging. Nice to see a well-considered, sane and humble perspective being shared.
Although I understand some of the reactions and emotions involved (although not all), an awful lot of the posts seem to suggest that the posters need to spend more time immersing themselves prayerfully in their CURRENT resources than worrying about upgrading or spending so much time and emotion judging another man's servant or another man's business. And it's been even more frustrating to see others quietly encouraging the fear mongering and slander (almost as if they enjoy doing so). The Bible doesn't have much to say about software, but it does have a lot to say about those who strive to create division between brothers.
For heaven's sake, this is just SOFTWARE. And no matter what someone might feel or how they might disagree about Bob's decisions, or Logos' business, etc. etc. (whatever someone's personal issue might be, however legitimate or illegitimate), Bob and those at Logos are our BROTHERS AND SISTERS... we need to keep that always in mind... and HOW we treat them is of FAR more importance in God's eyes than our personal issues/concerns/gripes, even if we happen to be right. It does no good being "right" if we go about it in a way that is dishonoring to them or the Lord.
It's great for us to feel like we know better than Bob about the challenges inherent in running his own business ... (this is why I appreciated your post so much... few have been willing to credit that Bob has a lot of concerns to consider that maybe we don't know about)... We all make great Monday morning quarterbacks. It's easy for us to look at the release and say they should have done this or that... would we truly have seen those things ahead of time had we been there? All of them? Maybe yes... and maybe, just maybe, no. But Bob and his crew are human beings... and like us all, they aren't perfect or omniscient. Many of the posts seem to infer that they should be. All things considered they have done a first rate job.
And do you know what I really appreciate? EVERY RESPONSE FROM ANYONE AT LOGOS... and ESPECIALLY from Bob... has been gracious and generous and sensitive and humble... acknowledging in hindsight the mistakes and displaying an eagerness to learn from it and to set things right... despite a WHOLE lot of abuse and slander. I would like to think that I would have as much graciousness in their shoes, without sneaking in some snarky response. But I probably wouldn't be. Kudos to all of you guys! Bob, I grow in respect towards you daily. You're a good man.
Speaking of which... kudos to the MVPS!!... wow... they have been so helpful and patient and humble... repeating the same answers again and again and again and again and.... (all the more impressive when it seems people haven't even been willing to read the posts that have led up to their own, which would have addressed their concerns... I can't understand why folks would "invest" so much in a product like they are claiming, and not spend the time to read about the issue before slandering the company and maligning their brothers... most of the complaints and concerns have been because people have jumped to inaccurate conclusions).
Am I perfectly satisfied with the roll out of L5? With L4? With Logos? Marketing? etc., etc? Are all my personal issues and preferences being catered to perfectly? Nope. And if we have concerns or issues, yes, they SHOULD be expressed. But Bob has a million of us users to keep in mind and (God help him!) try to please. We are a community, with a variety of needs, desires and preferences. And we're not ... none of us... going to have EVERYTHING we want, right NOW when we want it. It's not Logos. And it's not life. I'm trying to teach my four year old daughter the same thing.
SO thanks, ManilaDave. Great post. Thought you should know it was appreciated.
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Robert Iversen said:
This seems very disappointing to me, a new customer, just joining the Logos family. I feel overlooked. Just sharing my thoughts as I would keep paying for an outdated and replaced product. This was not for content but the whole package.
My dear brother... I'm trying to understand... truly... where you are coming from. It's very hard for me. Maybe (sincerely) you can help me understand better why you and others are feeling "overlooked"? Others have expressed feeling like they are "devalued" as existing customers, like they are "second class", etc. etc. I truly don't understand this.
Let's say you are a new customer. You can go to the Logos website, and buy a package, and receive L5 and the new datasets and features.
Let's say you are an old/existing customer. You can go to the website, and buy an upgrade package, and receive L5 and the new datasets and features.
Let's say that you are a new customer and can't afford to buy a package right now and receive L5 and the new datasets and features. The free L5 engine is coming, as well as the minimal crossgrade which you can purchase that will give you the new datasets and features. You can get everything you want then... and don't have to pay for anything you don't want or can't use.
Let's say that you are an old/existing customer, and can't afford to buy an upgrade package right now and receive L5 and the new datasets and features. The free L5 engine is coming, as well as the minimal crossgrade which you can purchase that will give you the new datasets and features. You can get everything you want then... and don't have to pay for anything you don't want or can't use.
SOOO... how are you being treated differently... better or worse... than anyone else? How are you being "overlooked"? Devalued? Second class? It's NOT like someone else is sneaking to the front of the line and getting something that you aren't. You can do the same thing... right now. If you can't afford to do that... and guess what... most of us can't, whether we are old/existing customers or new ones... that's okay... you can wait and receive it anyway. No one is getting access to something that you don't have an equal opportunity to access, and at the same time that they are.
You aren't "losing" anything, or receiving an inferior product. As others have mentioned, because of how folks at Logos do things, you are getting a much BETTER product than you knew about when you made your investment. Imagine that you bought your car, and are making payments, and Ford or GM or whoever came to you a few months later (or a few years later) and said... oh, by the way... we're going to GIVE you (no cost) a brand new engine that works even better and that has even more features than the car you bought. Would you be complaining or disppointed or feel "overlooked" or undervalued in that case? This really isn't any different.
In fact, you actually get a BETTER deal, in my opinion, and in the opinion of a number of others on these forums, than someone walking in brand new off the street. Why? Because your package likely included some higher caliber resources than what you may find in the newer packages (admittedly, that's a subjective statement... and I don't know what package you originally bought and what your needs may be). But at least in my case (a LONG time user with a LOT invested), I'm getting the best of both worlds... even if I can't afford to upgrade right now. I get to keep all of the high quality products I bought, get a brand new slick engine for free, and have the whole package run way better than what I had before. Sweet.
So you aren't paying for an outdated and replaced product. You're getting an even better "package" than you thought you were, at no charge (the free engine)... and can get access(through the minimal crossgrade) to a bunch of NEW features and datasets for a very small cost (like adding a new state-of-the art GPS and satellite radio to that car of yours that wasn't even available technologically or ready for release by the manufacturer back when you made your original purchase).
The reality, my friend, is that technology moves on, and always will. Whatever we buy today will be "replaced" by something new tomorrow. That shiny new car you just bought plunges in value through depreciation the second you drive it off the lot. Logos has done us all a good deal by ensuring that that car we bought from them stays shiny, suped up, and tuned up for the rest of your life.... for free. And if you want to add some state of the art bells and whistles and accessories as they become available, you can do that too. Don't begrudge them getting paid a (small) amount for providing those extras to you (and the rest of us)... they are worth far more than they will be charging (if they aren't to you, you don't have to buy them after all)... You'll get a great value, and they and their families will get to eat, and they'll be enabled to keep your car running in great shape for years to come. How is that not a good investment?
So brother, be encourged, and be content!
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EmileB said:
SO thanks, ManilaDave. Great post. Thought you should know it was appreciated.
And a huge thinks to you Emile. Both posts were much needed and deeply appreciated—by me at least.
EmileB said:Speaking of which... kudos to the MVPS!!
On behalf of me and my fellow volunteers, thank you very much.
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Jack Caviness said:EmileB said:
Speaking of which... kudos to the MVPS!!
On behalf of me and my fellow volunteers, thank you very much.
Indeed. Thank you - it is appreciated
Graham
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KS4J,
Thanks for the clarification. I would have preferred if it would have listed (new to you with the number of volumes that I did not possess in that set). That certainly did create confusion on my end and I was not sure if the calculator was working. Appreciate your insight as well as your help. Have a blessed day in the LORD Jesus Christ.
In Christ Alone and for His Glory
Naveen
Job 23:12
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First of all Logos is a business. I appreciate their product, and yes their product helps those in ministry, but they rolled this out in order to get revenue from new and upgrade customers. I own many pieces of software, but none come close my investment in Logos, and for most people it is not an insignficant investment. Scripture also advises we speak truth in love. Christians often conclude that anything critical is no longer in love, even it means shading the truth, or avoiding telling the truth. I think this is a fatal place to be as a business. If Logos customers are not truthful, then Logos will not know why their customer base is slowly disappearing to competitors or recommending to others to get a different product. Software is often sold by recommendation, and so if the current customer base is confused and unhappy then it really hurts sales and revenue.
It is hard to find the right balance of being gracious yet truthful, but your email also accuses other brothers of a lack of gaciousness, slander and division. These are pretty heavy charges that are made without evidence. A difference of opinion is not slander or division. I think many people were very confused by the upgrade communications and that this is a method of rolling out an upgrade that is not common in the software field. According to Bob this rollout strategy was meant to maximize their cash flow which is their right as a business. And unless you look all over the site and find Bob's post in this set of exchanges you would still not know what their plan is (a plan with little detail and no timeline). Again it is their right to do it this way, but customers of this business will also ask clarifying questions, and may have strong opinions. When you invest this much in software, there is a feeling of ownership and loyalty, you have "bought" into the company, not in a literal way but a figurative sense. It's actually a very powerful tool when managed (like Applie for example), but it is also a very powerful tool against you as well if not managed. Other software companies go to great lengths to get their current customer base excited about upgrades. If you look on the product page, I don't think you will still find anything that actually defines what the new features are and why it is beneficial. Yes it lists new resources for certain packages that no longer track with old ones, but that may not be a case for upgrading.
I really want Logos to be successful, there are many good things about the company, and their customers will show grace. There seems to be in the Logos DNA a belief that they are selling content (both in the desktop and especially mobile platform) rather than being a software company. This whole rollout demonstrates to me that many of their customer think it's a software product and so we have a mismatch in expectations.
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Jack, Graham... you are MORE than welcome... I have been so impressed with all of you guys. Other than seriously padding your post counts [;)] it has been a pretty thankless task. But man, as bad as the confusion and misinformation and slander has been in these forums for the better part of a week now, can you imagine what it WOULD have been like without you? You have all been like a rock... steady, calm, patient... full of helpful, clarifying information... it has been a joy reading your posts, and you have all helped me personally (from my initial questions responded to by Thomas and Mike... God bless them!!). I trust, thousands of others have been similarly blessed. And it's not the first time.
And Bob, if you're reading this... I don't know if it is possible or not... but could I put in a plug for passing on a free resource to the MVPs in thanks for their tremendous assistance in aquainting people with L5 and answering all of our questions? They have been a tremendous asset to Logos! SInce they all already have tons of books, maybe you could offer them their choice of a resource under a certain $ amount? Maybe even a minimal crossgrade? [:D]
And again... thanks to you above all... for your hard work, your high-quality product, your willingness to listen and to serve others, your humility and patience, your calm and thorough clarifications, your incredible grace under fire... you make me proud to be associated with you and Logos !! WIsh I could thank you in person or in some more tangible way.
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Dear Bob,
I am grateful to the LORD for you and your company (Philippians 1:3). I am grateful that the LORD in His wisdom has allowed you and your company to manufacture a product (Logos) that brings the sum total of Scripture together to make us to be diligent students of His Word. Is the product expensive compared to others? Absolutely without a doubt, but Logos does incredibly well what no other Bible software on the market does well pulling resources together on one page (with multiple windows) all that pertains to that particular text or subject.
I was formerly a PC Bible Study user since the 5.25" floppy disk days till a dear pastor friend of mine introduced me to Logos few years ago. He let me play with it for a few days on his computer when I was with him in Chicago. Initially I was not really sure since I was used to PC Study Bible since 1992 and I had my own pattern to doing things when it came to studying. But I began to realize the importance of the simplicity of having all that stuff on one page. I no longer use PC Study Bible.
Also, one of the greatest benefits that I have come to experience that the preparation time on my end has been cut down from 30 hours per message down to 10-12 per message. This is incredibly helpful in that regard and I have recommended and will continue to recommend Logos to all those I am discipling so that they will become better students of His Infallible, Inerrant, Immutable, Inspired, Eternal, Holy and Pure Word.
At this point my finances will not allow me to upgrade to Logos 5, but I am looking forward to the crossgrade version (around $100) when it becomes available.
Bob, I do apologize for my attitude towards you, for Scripture mandates that we be kind one to another and tenderhearted (cf. Ephesians 4:32). Be not rash and do not be hasty is one admonition I had to be reminded of this day. Wherefore my beloved brethren, always be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to wrath (James 1:19) is something I need to practice. Thank you for your patience and understanding. I am grateful for your personal attention to these matters and addressing them in a kind and gentle manner. May the LORD bless you and keep you.
In Christ Alone and for His Glory
Naveen
Joshua 1:8
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EmileB said:
Jack, Graham... you are MORE than welcome... I have been so impressed with all of you guys.
Emile, I thought of so many clever remarks to make but finally decided that the only appropriate response was to say that I appreciate you appreciation.
EmileB said:Other than seriously padding your post counts
That is one motivation [:D] There are others, of course.
Since I thanked you for the initial post, perhaps thanking you again can be viewed as padding. [:D]
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Dale, I'm not sure if your post was intended to address mine or not, but in as much as I used the term division, I will own it.
I actually disagree very little with what you have written.
But here is what I would add, because there is a subtle issue at stake with significant repercussions.
I am absolutely NOT for shading the truth or hiding the truth. I am all FOR speaking the truth in love, as you have rightly highlighted. No question, Logos is a business. I for one have never argued otherwise. "Not being critical" does not mean that someone is being loving. Criticisms SHOULD be made... opinions voiced, feedback offered, clarification sought, disappointment voiced. There will, of course, be differences of opinion (that was actually one of the points that I had made)... that does not, as you so rightly state, (necessarily) indicate a lack of graciousness, slander, or division.
All of that, however, is not what I have been addressing. I think you are setting up a false distinction. That somehow being "truthful" justifies ungracious and slanderous behavior. If you don't see that many of the complaints that have been posted on these forums lack graciousness, have been full of slander and division, and especially full of BLATANTLY untruthful assertions and misrepresentations "without evidence", you and I are reading different forums. It isn't at ALL that people are asking questions, seeking clarification, or voicing criticisms that I take objection to (I say, go for it! That only helps the company in the long term, which helps us all).
But you say, "speak the truth in love". I agree. Then make sure that what we do say IS truth. And that it is in genuine love. And when we do speak "truth in love", then how about a little love and graciousness with that truth? Whatever happened to the equal commands to let no unwholesome talk exit our mouths, but only that which is helpful for edifying others? About the command to share the truth with gentleness and respect? To admonish/correct/instruct others with gentleness and grace as to a father or brother or sister, or as a stronger brother to a weaker one? What about the concept that it is better to be wronged than to drag Christ's name through the mud through the poor manner that we solve our disagreements with one another? All of that is also carried in the command to "speak the truth in love." HOW we speak to one another is just as important to the Lord as WHAT we speak to one another. And there lies the problem.
But too often, when people use the "speak the truth in love" argument to justify their posts, it becomes an excuse to justify every form of ungracious slander and untruthfulness to vent one's personal agenda. "Speaking the truth in love" is a biblical principle for the purpose of your brother or sister's soul, not to serve as a blank check for someone to complain that they aren't getting something they think they deserve. That's carnal. I haven't heard much thought being given to the souls (let alone the feelings) of Bob and his coworkers in Christ in all of this recent "speaking the truth in love" that we've seen on the forums. What I have seen is a lot more akin to the grumbling of the workers in Jesus' parable who got paid the same after working all day as those who got paid after having worked for only an hour (and the sad thing, that isn't at all what Logos has been doing).
So I agree with you, Dale. Really. But it's a straw man argument. no one is against people "speaking the truth in love". By all means, let's do EXACTLY that. Truth. Love. Both. I've seen very little of either. I don't agree with the implied dichotomy, that if one must "speak the truth", that it can't be done graciously. By no stretch of the imagination do the hundreds of posts I am referencing fall under the category of "speaking the truth in love", or in the manner in which we are supposed to do so (I do not assert this in the case of your post, brother... just answering your arguments. And there are surely many others that have been graciously worded, and complaints/concerns in a number of cases appropriately expressed). But if the general tone that we have seen of this so-called "speaking the truth in love" is, in fact, what people who follow Christ believe that "love" looks like, its little wonder so few in the world want to follow Him and that kind of love (can you imagine what unbelievers reading this forum would think? And they are out there, I assure you). But what is happening isn't actually "speaking the truth in love". The kind of thing I am talking about is the making of an assertion rooted in carnality and the accompanying abusiveness and slander against our brothers and sisters in Christ, and the subsequent hiding behind the skirts of the biblical admonition that one is merely "speaking the truth in love" to justify one's own carnality.
Rubbish. It doesn't qualify. It is being done for different ends ("give me what I want", "i feel cheated", etc., etc... not "I love you and I am concerned for your soul"), and in a different tone (blatant miss- statements of demonstrable and verifiable facts, slanderous statements about intentions/motives, vicious expressions of anger, gossiping/fearmongering, etc.) that reveals that it is not what the Bible is urging upon us when we are called upon to "speak the truth in love".
You write that the accusation has been made against brothers of a lack of graciousness, slander and division... and that these heavy charges are made without evidence. It obviously would not be appropriate or biblical to call out people by name in a public forum, but there is an abundance of evidence that could be cited. Hundreds. Could I in all seriousness ask you, if you genuinely have any doubt, to read through each of the posts since the release, and pray about each one after its reading, and ask the Lord whether He would truly want us to speak to one another in such a fashion? I have done so. And I stand by my assertions. This has not been, in many, many cases, honoring to Christ. I think if you go through such an exercise, you will find more than enough hard evidence to substantiate the claims that I have made.
So, my friend, in agreement with you, let us discuss, share differences of opinion, voice our concerns, make constructive criticisms that edify, express our disappointments and even our frustrations... but let us do so not as if we were children, but as mature men and women in Christ, who know what it means to truly "speak the truth in love"... with genuine love, compassion, humility and concern for one another and the honor of the One we serve... and for Whose glory we bought this software in the first place.
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I am grateful to be able to use this platform as a ministry Emile. I get to assist pastors, teachers and Bible students all over the world to study better. I am humbled and grateful for your gratitude.EmileB said:Jack, Graham... you are MORE than welcome... I have been so impressed with all of you guys. Other than seriously padding your post counts
it has been a pretty thankless task. But man, as bad as the confusion and misinformation and slander has been in these forums for the better part of a week now, can you imagine what it WOULD have been like without you? You have all been like a rock... steady, calm, patient... full of helpful, clarifying information... it has been a joy reading your posts, and you have all helped me personally (from my initial questions responded to by Thomas and Mike... God bless them!!). I trust, thousands of others have been similarly blessed. And it's not the first time.Thanks.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
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Naveen Balakrishnan said:
Bob, I do apologize for my attitude towards you, for Scripture mandates that we be kind one to another and tenderhearted (cf. Ephesians 4:32). Be not rash and do not be hasty is one admonition I had to be reminded of this day. Wherefore my beloved brethren, always be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to wrath (James 1:19) is something I need to practice. Thank you for your patience and understanding. I am grateful for your personal attention to these matters and addressing them in a kind and gentle manner. May the LORD bless you and keep you.
Naveen, this is one of the most gracious and humble posts I've seen in a long time... and your scripture references are very much to the point and clarify the issues that we have seen all too frequently here... you spoke in a few words what I tried to address (with less clarity) with many... thank you for your Christ-like example and your wise and gracious words. We all needed to hear them.
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EmileB....Thank you very much for your recent posts in this thread. It is encouraging to see this AM.
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Glad to see a minimal upgrade coming! Love the product, but these are lean times for many of our budgets these days!
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"Robert Iversen": My dear brother... I'm trying to understand... truly... where you are coming from. It's very hard for me. Maybe (sincerely) you can help me understand better why you and others are feeling "overlooked"? Others have expressed feeling like they are "devalued" as existing customers, like they are "second class", etc. etc. I truly don't understand this.EmileB said:Robert Iversen said:This seems very disappointing to me, a new customer, just joining the Logos family. I feel overlooked. Just sharing my thoughts as I would keep paying for an outdated and replaced product. This was not for content but the whole package.
My dear brother... I'm trying to understand... truly... where you are coming from. It's very hard for me. Maybe (sincerely) you can help me understand better why you and others are feeling "overlooked"? Others have expressed feeling like they are "devalued" as existing customers, like they are "second class", etc. etc. I truly don't understand this.
Let's say you are a new customer. How is that not a good investment?
So brother, be encourged, and be content!
<snip> How is that not a good investment?
So brother, be encourged, and be content!
When you rephrase and reframe everything according to your own perspective, it remains hard to look for the splinter in your brother's eye. Here is a snippet to further your own car analogy and relate it to this current Logos fiasco:
Let's say I was offering you a new car and I told you that if you want windshield wipers, you would have to buy a package that includes the windshield wipers, mag wheels, rear spoiler, and front fairings for $1,500. And only after a major uproar from multiple car buyers did I come out and say that some time in the future, we will offer you the windshield wipers alone but you may not be able to use the FM band or the disc player on your radio. We'll let you know when we get around to it.
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I'm sorry, Jeff. But you are drawing conclusions again that really don't have any basis in facts. From all that has been said from the beginning (and if you had read all of the posts in the various forums from the start of the release) you would know that the minimal crossgrade was ALWAYS planned by Logos, and was not offered as a result of a bunch of people complaining. It was something that was stated to those involved even back in the beta testing days. And this has always been Logos approach. So again, you are disseminating false information and making assumptions about the plans of the company which you know nothing about.
And it doesn't change the facts of what I wrote. I'm sorry, it really does sound like you don't understand about the upgrade offers, how they work, why they are being done that way, or the upcoming crossgrades. No one is saying you have to spend a dime. You can get the engine for free. You can get minimal crossgrades at various price points, some of which, at least, are not going to be very costly. A range of crossgrades are being established so that you don't have to buy anything you don't want or need or can't afford. You and everyone else are being offered to buy a package of resources at this time, if you choose to, that includes the new engine, databases and features. New user, old user, it doesn't matter. you can if you want. If you don't want or can't afford it, then you can wait like everyone else in your situation, new user or old user. No one is being treated as second class or being devalued as a customer. And the 1500 price you are throwing out is for NEW RESOURCES if you want them, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with the new engine, databases or features.
Also, in case you missed it, a projected timeframe and cost was tentatively announced today in the forums by a Logos staffer.
Sometimes its helpful to try to assist people in seeing a different perspective. Others have helped me in the same way on various occasions. My sharing such a different perspective in my post that you quoted hardly justifies the application of a condemning comment about splinters; nor was my post done in anything but a kind and sincere fashion. Your response is exactly the kind of emotional, judging, unproductive and unfair rhetoric that I have been talking about that really isn't very helpful.
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" From all that has been said from the beginning (and if you had read all of the posts in the various forums from the start of the release) you would know that the minimal crossgrade was ALWAYS planned by Logos, and was not offered as a result of a bunch of people complaining."
When I talked to Logos last night - they told me that it was not in the plan this time like it was in the 3 to 4 upgrade. They had to reevaluate their position and offer it because of the response. They were very clear that it was not planned before the release. It maybe a training issue or maybe it was a proposal that was not accepted at first, or maybe..... It is not my job to speculate, but rather just to mention the inconsistent message.
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Emile,
You are right, I have not spent time reading all the forums and participating in the process. I have only used Logos for 15 - 20 years and still have my tie that came with one of my early packages. I own and operate a business and have a full load plus with this and regular study of God's Word. I do not have time to make my study tool into an arduous, multiple hours per day, pursuit. It seems folks are willing to grant Logos is a business but fail to realize they sell to businessmen. For all these years, I have relied on Logos' representations in the way they market their products.
Once again, you are considering your own frame of reference and not allowing that others may see things differently. And while you accuse others of "misrepresenting facts" (otherwise known as lying), you are doing the very same thing. The fact is that to those who have not avidly pursued blogs and forums and only relied on how this was presented in the latest marketing effort, it was a surprise, there was not adequate information presented to make an informed decision, the upgrade calculator was quirky and hard to understand, etc... And only after a big backlash did more information get presented to those who do not hang around looking at forums all day to make an informed decision.
Once again to help you if you are sincere (not evident so far) about seeing a different perspective:
"I'm sorry, it really does sound like you don't understand about the upgrade offers, how they work, why they are being done that way, or the upcoming crossgrades."
I did not understand when I was first hit with the surprise (to me) announcement following right on the heels of abandoning WinXP which is on all my computers. But I have come to understand by spending time I really can ill afford right now. It is not me who lacks understanding but you who refuses to see any perspective but your own.
When you go to buy a new car, "No one is saying you have to spend a dime"
"You can get the engine for free. You can get minimal crossgrades at various price points, some of which, at least, are not going to be very costly"
Translation: You can have the windshield wipers but you will not be able to use your FM band or your disk player.
"No one is being treated as second class or being devalued as a customer."
Please show me where I said this.
"And the 1500 price you are throwing out is for NEW RESOURCES if you want them, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with the new engine, databases or features. "
First, $1,500 is for a hypothetical set of car options.
Second, you illustrate my point while refusing to see it. If I want to be able to use all of the Logos 5 functionality, I cannot just buy the bare-bones resources necessary to do this. I must also buy other resources that I may or may not want. Back to the analogy of the car, windshield wipers, fairings, spoiler, etc.. ("NEW RESOURCES") may save me thousands over buying them separately. But it is a high price to pay if I only want windshield wipers. And note that "windshield wipers" are analogous to Logos 5 features beyond the minimal crossgrade whereas the minimal crossgrade is analogous to the car. Likewise, if I am shown all the neat things Logos 5 can do then told I will have to buy a package that is a very good deal but only a few of the resources in the package are actually necessary to use the features on Logos 5, that has all the hallmarks of the crafty steward in Luke 16. And my impression in a long talk with a Logos rep is that Logos unabashedly responds that they are first a for-profit company and places that as a priority above conformity to altruistic ideals like Biblical principles.
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Mr. Bob Pritchett,
I'm trying to understand your comments… I see that you mentioned the following:
"Upgrading just the engine will let you use some new functionality, take advantage of the new user interface, etc. You'll get the search helps, bibliography report, and more. But features that require specific new data sets -- like the new Timeline, Bible Facts, and the Bible Sense Lexicon -- aren't included."
"Over the years this turned into "you only buy books, the software is free!" And that has been the case for 17 years, and still is. And for all those years we have continued to offer free updates, free phone support, and excellent customer service. And we still will."
Question: If the software is free and the consumer only purchases the resources (books), why won't all of the new features available in Logos 5 be available to someone who upgrades the software engine only? Is this because there are specific resources that utilize these features? What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?
Somewhat confused...
Frank
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It's the data.
lifeofworship said:What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?
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Thanks, Jeffrey. Yes, obviously I can't posit whether that was a training issue or inconsistency.... but from what I have been told, it was always planned. And frankly, think about it... it doesn't make any sense NOT to offer a minimal crossgrade.... and it would be totally inconsistent with everything that Logos has stood for or how they have acted in the past. It really sounds like a phone rep that either got a signal crossed or didn't understand your question, or who knows? It's pure speculation, as you say (thanks for making the distinction). All I know is that it was always asserted in the beta testing stage, and Bob reasserted it early on when the questions arose. And the approach Bob and Co. are taking makes sense in light of that, where it wouldn't seem to make much sense if there had never been a plan for a minimal crossgrade all along. The majority of folks aren't going to purchase an upgrade or new package no matter how slick the new engine is, which means that Logos would have to have been very silly and intellectually challenged to base their financial future on such an approach. It would mean tons of lost revenue, looking at it from a purely economic perspective (and if that is all that Logos worries about as so many people claim, it reinforces my point). But I also don't think they would do that from a customer service perspective (I can cite many personal examples in my personal relationship with the company over the years of Logos and Bob opting for the right thing over the profit margin... some rather costly to Logos... because it was just the right thing to do). I have seen Bob's character over time (almost 20 years) and I am willing to take his word at face value.
But in any case, I agree with you that Logos has always had communications challenges, internally and publicly, and it tends to give them difficulties at times. Alot of the time probably because they have a million things going on there at once. But my point all day in my many posts has simply been this: can we choose to assume good intentions, rather than evil/nefarious intentions all the time? Can we allow that Logos staff are not perfect or omniscient? Can we treat them as brothers and sisters in Christ when we express our disagreements, with care for their souls and feelings? Can we focus on clarifying the facts rather than making emotional and slanderous claims, or using judgmental or inflammatory language? Can we speak about things in a way such that Christ would smile at our words if He was looking over our shoulder as we typed (because He is, of course), and respond to us, "well done, good and faithful servant?" Maybe all those folks complaining are right. But it doesn't matter one bit if it is expressed in a way that brings dishonor to Christ or wounds a brother needlessly. Much better to bear the "wrong" done to us.
And Jeffrey, thanks for the non-judgmental way that you shared your different news and perspective. If everyone would discuss disagreements in that manner, we'd all be better off.
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lifeofworship said:
What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?
A function is a feature of the program that requires code. A data set is information that an individual or individuals sat down and manually compiled or created. With L3 Logos depended on code to pull all information together. I am one of those that found this to be insufficient. It is very hard for code to determine the value a given source adds to a specific topic. someone sat down and determined the most valuable information to present to a user and compiled this information into a data set. You are paying for the manual efforts of an individual or research team when you purchase a data set, much the same way you pay for the author's work when they write a book. some functions in L5 are dependant on datasets. In other words the timeline function is not code that simply goes through your library and pulls information from your resources automatically. It is a function that depends on the data someone manually compiled. The bibliography document, however, does not depend on any data sets for its full functionality. Thus it will be a part of any free upgrade because it is completely code dependent. I hope this all makes sense.
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Jeff O'Neal said:
Second, you illustrate my point while refusing to see it. If I want to be able to use all of the Logos 5 functionality, I cannot just buy the bare-bones resources necessary to do this. I must also buy other resources that I may or may not want. Back to the analogy of the car, windshield wipers, fairings, spoiler, etc.. ("NEW RESOURCES") may save me thousands over buying them separately. But it is a high price to pay if I only want windshield wipers. And note that "windshield wipers" are analogous to Logos 5 features beyond the minimal crossgrade whereas the minimal crossgrade is analogous to the car. Likewise, if I am shown all the neat things Logos 5 can do then told I will have to buy a package that is a very good deal but only a few of the resources in the package are actually necessary to use the features on Logos 5, that has all the hallmarks of the crafty steward in Luke 16. And my impression in a long talk with a Logos rep is that Logos unabashedly responds that they are first a for-profit company and places that as a priority above conformity to altruistic ideals like Biblical principles.
Hi Jeff,
Firstly, welcome to the forums!
Emile has tried to outline the options available to you. I am unclear from your response as to whether there has been some misunderstanding with regards to Logos' position.
The first thing, importantly, is that you are under no obligations to upgrade. L4 continues to be supported. Indeed, I understand that further service releases are planned. You are, therefore, free to continue to use and enjoy L4 indefinitely.
Logos have announced that they will release the free engine which will give you access to the L5 platform, but not the new functionality.
If, however, you want to access the new functionality, your options are twofold. You can upgrade your package now. I accept, however, that the cost of doing so may prove unacceptable to you. For clarity, however, you are paying for the new resources (the packages have been significantly redesigned).
Additionally, Logos have announced that they will be releasing a minimal upgrade which will enable you to access much of the new functionality within L5, but at a lower cost.
Finally, and I do not intend to be confrontational, but I do question the sentiment expressed below, particularly given that you are, yourself, a business man,
Jeff O'Neal said:they are first a for-profit company and places that as a priority above conformity to altruistic ideals like Biblical principles
This implies that you believe that Logos' pursuit of profit is somehow inconsistent with 'biblical principles'. I presume, given your own business background and Logos' generosity in making the L5 engine available at a number of price points (including for no cost whatsoever) you will, no doubt, wish to clarify.
Blessings in your decision.
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