Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!
Comments
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Scott Pixler said:
To Jack, your point about application software is not convincing. I think it is comparing apples to oranges.
You puzzle me. Logos doing what every other software vendor does in regard to licensing is not germane to this discussion? Since your mind seems closed on this subject, I will refrain from responding to any further posts.
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Isn't it time to display Christian charity (old KJV word for agape) one towards the other even though there is disagreement between one and the other? Speak the truth in love but rather choose to be defrauded than to defraud (goes on both ends). Such smattering among Christian brethren speaks of a grevious witness to Christ Himself. I pray choose to go separate ways if that is the intention. But there is no need to besmirch one's character or attitude based on perception. Whether Logos has done right or not is immaterial but our attitude in response to this neglect (whether intentional or unintentional) nevertheless displays what we speak of Christ by our words and actions. It is time to put this thing behind us brethren. Walk in love one towards the other afterall we have been commanded by our LORD Jesus in Matthew 5:44, "...love ye your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you."
In Christ Alone and for His Glory
Naveen
2 Timothy 2:19
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Scott Pixler said:
I have experienced the pains, the pleasures, and the benefits of both e-books and printed books. I have thousands of both. I did not know that I can will my Logos books to my descendants. Thank you for that info. That is something that is important to me about my books: that my kids can have them one day and treasure them as I have. I have some very old print books that have been handed down to me... I love 'em.
I noticed that you haven't yet mentioned the most important aspect of e-books (to me at least) -- the added functionality. If that's not important to you, then I truly agree, stick to paper. But for me, using my books now in the most efficient and productive way is the top priority. Who knows if my kids will even care about the books I have?
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Actually I am using the word Bob Pritchett used to sum up his original posting that started this thread:
"I'm so sorry we didn't make all of this clearer right from the start,
and I hope you won't be offended by our "paying the bills" focus on
selling the revenue-generating upgrade bundles for just a short while
before we offer the low-cost and free alternatives."The fact that after 10 days since Bob's post, you still cannot easily find information about the software engine or minimum crossgrade option. I wonder how many are "paying the bills" for Logos without knowing that a cheaper, or even free, option is going to be available to them at some indefinite time in the future. If Bob is sorry that Logos didn't make the software engine upgrade and minimum crossgrade options clear from the start - why not do so now to everyone who visits the upgrade page? Still not there....
Bob expressed the hope I wouldn't be offended, and I wanted to express that his hope was not fulfilled in my case.
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Whether you agree with Mr, Stitt's position or not, he does have a point. I have spent a lot of time in the forums in order to find updates about the crossgrade. The only place it has been posted is the forums and not always on the same forum. I haven't found anything on Logos' website about the coming of the crossgrade. Even though communication was identified as a major issue with this release, it has not been rectified. Up until now, I haven't had an issue with the way Logos conducts business. I just hope this isn't the start of a change in the way Logos does business.
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It is evident that Logos did mess up and they have in humility acknowledged that very reality. Are we pushing the envelope here because we are trying to make ourselves look good in the sight of others? Is this attitude that we are displaying in any way bring glory to God? Are we not commanded to put the interests of others above our very own (cf. Philippians 2:1-4)? Are people not allowed to mess up? Do you mess up? Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (1 Corinthians 10:12). It is time to let this go gentlemen. It breaks my heart that we are bearing an unChristlike attitude one towards the other. How much this must grieve the heart of the Father.
in Christ Alone and for His Glory
Naveen
John 8:7
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For those of you who are wondering, I am using Logos 4 Platinum. Would I have preferred to have Logos 5 with the minimal crossgrade including the features and datasets or the Logos 5 free engine? Absolutely. Logos 4 has been a phenomenonal program without a doubt. It has significantly cut down my sermon preparation time from 30+ hours down to 10-15 hour range. Being able to utilize resources so readily at one point (windows on multiple panes on the same page) has been an incredible reality. It has really enabled me to a better student of His Word afterall He has commanded us "Study to shew thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed but rightly dividing the word of truth." in 2 Timothy 2:15 (of course this is AWANA's theme verse). I am grateful to Bob and his team at Logos for helping me to be diligent in my study of what is the MOST IMPORTANT Book of all time. It is only this that God has commanded to preach (cf. 2 Timothy 4:2), and to teach (Matthew 28:20) and to hide in one's heart (Colossians 3:16; Psalm 119:9-11; Deuteronomy 6:6). What has been an incredible blessing to many of us (if not all of us) why are suddenly now cursing the very ones who enabled to put in our hands a tool for our stewardship of His Word? Just pondering.
In Christ Alone and for His Glory
Naveen
2 Timothy 2:2
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Thanks Naveen for your thoughtful posts. [:)]
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Naveen - Whether I upgrade or not is yet to be seen. Regardless of whether I upgrade, I have benefited from Logos and will continue to use it for my study. I appreciate Bob's comments in the forum, but it has not been reflected on any official site. To do this would take about 15 minutes, but it would make their promise of a crossgrade visible to those who have not spent the time searching the forums. The mistakes that were admitted to in the lack of communication persist. Is it an unChristlike attitude to comment on that? I have not questioned Bob or anyone else at Logos' faith or motives. I do question their business decisions. Questioning a business decision is not unChristlike. It is not with hostility that I ask the questions I have asked. I have in no way cursed Logos as you say. I hope that your exegesis of the Bible is not taken to the same level as your exegesis of my comments...
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Technology does move on and I have taken the offer to get my refund for the product that I am still in my payment period for. I will see what happens with Logos and maybe come back after it has moved on some more. I have a bad taste in my mouth from investing such a large sum of money in a product has morphed before I could even realize what was in version 4. I appreciate progress, I do. I just think the sized packages are too prohibitive for me. I wish you all the best and hope you enjoy it. I may revisit this at some other point down the road. I am content with the other software that I invested a bit of money into and I can buy the specific volumes I had hoped Logos would eventually offer (and may down the road). They honestly do a good job and I would say they set the standard. There is no doubt about that.
I am encouraged and appreciate their willingness to refund my money and understand my frustration. That I have to admit is stellar and outstanding.
Remaining in Him (1 John 2:28), Robert
Mac Book Pro, Windows 7 Professional, iPhone 4S, iPad 1
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Last week I upgraded from Scholars 4 (with over $5,000 worth of additional books) to Silver 5. It cost me a little over $400. I did not particularly want all of the books that came with Silver 5 even at the discounted prices (there were a few useful commentaries, but I had already purchased better ones). What I did want was the Logos 5 Framework and the new Data Sets.I purchased Silver 5 knowing that it lacked the Bible Sense Lexicon Data Set, which I really wanted. At the time, however, the Logos Base Package comparison site was advertising it as an add-on for $19.95. Great! But when I tried to purchase it, I was told it was NOT available as an add-on but might be available sometime in the future (it would have cost me another $500 to move up to Gold 5 to get it, which was out of the question). (Logos has since removed the $19.95 price from their comparison chart.)
Then, I found out that sometime in the near future Logos will be offering a cross-grade to the version 5 Framework for free (surely lacking the Data Set I wanted), a minimal cross-grade for under $100 (also presumably lacking the Data Set I wanted), but also a higher value up-grade for "somewhat over $100" most likely having all of the new Data Sets. It then occurred to me that Logos "might not" make the Bible Sense Data Set available separately at all, but only as part of the highest value up-grade (meaning I would have to spend "somewhat more" than another $100 just for that feature).
Today I called Logos customer service and asked if they had (now) determined if they were going make the Bible Sense Data Set available as a single add-on, or, if I was going to have to go to the more than $100 up-grade to get it. The customer service person was unable to answer my question as this had not been finalized.
So I posed this question: If it turns out that I will only be able to get the Bible Sense Data Set by spending more than an additional $100 on the higher value upgrade, I would rather return the Logos 5 Silver version and simply purchase the higher value Logos 5 Framework and Data Sets (and forego the additional books contained in Silver 5). The customer service person told me they would let me do that, should I want to, if the Data Set I wanted was not going to be made available as a separate add-on. She said, "we will take care of you."
I can't ask for more than that. I have been with Logos for about 16 years (ever since Version 1.6) and Bob has always treated me in a manner I consider fair.
I think the issue is this: For those who have been with Logos more than a decade and have *already* purchased the resources they really wanted/needed, Logos greatly underestimated the number of long-time customers who didn't want the additional resources irrespective of the strongly discounted pricing. They simply wanted to be able to purchase the new Framework and Data Sets and keep adding just the books/resources that *they* deem helpful to them.
But I strongly believe Bob will make this right. As for me, I'm sticking with Logos and Bob.
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Bruce Cullom said:
So I posed this question: If it turns out that I will only be able to get the Bible Sense Data Set by spending more than an additional $100 on the higher value upgrade, I would rather return the Logos 5 Silver version and simply purchase the higher value Logos 5 Framework and Data Sets (and forego the additional books contained in Silver 5). The customer service person told me they would let me do that, should I want to, if the Data Set I wanted was not going to be made available as a separate add-on. She said, "we will take care of you."
As you have said, Logos is a good company and makes a superb product. However, Logos seems to have a problem with basic communication skills. Phil Gons has stated—don't remember if it was this thread or another—that the crossgrade price would take into consideration what you already own. Thus, for you to obtain the Bible Sense Lexicon from L5 Silver would only cost the value of that one data set.
Apparently, Logos' communications problems are not all external.
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Another great post, Naveen. And very fitting Bible references. Another passage that spoke to my sinful heart in this matter is James 4. Our feedback is important to Logos or they would not host this blog and monitor and respond, all the way to the top brass of Logos. On the other side of the coin, it seems that Logos is similarly doing soul-searching of their own. Your point that all of this should comport with the Word of God is excellent!
In both conversations I have had with Logos reps, they have made a point of the multitude who are happily upgrading their base packages and the relative few who, like me, are whining. Yet they are indicating they will respond to the concerns and desires of the few in a positive way -- it is just not their priority at the moment.
SDG,
Jeff
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You make a good counterpoint, Jeffrey. Two passages come to mind as I was formulating a similar point:
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." (Col 3:16 ESV)
Please read 1 Thess 5:14 and compare root words in your Logos Interlinear before you try to play down the impact and import of the word, "admonish".
"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous
are both alike an abomination to the LORD." (Pr 17:15 ESV)
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Jeff ... what a pleasant morning. Frost during our early walk in the canyon. And your comment.
"In both conversations I have had with Logos reps, they have made a point of the multitude who are happily upgrading their base packages and the relative few who, like me, are whining. "
If I'm not mistaken, that quote has to be the best one I've read in the years I've been on the forums. (I used to have a previous best quote, but this one is even better!).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bob, thanks for the clarification. I'm sure none of uswill fuss about Logos making money. We understand you have to to stay in business and keep us in touch with the cutting edge of electronic Bible study. (A necessity for you and a blessing for us.) Knowing that Logos has been a business of long-standing integrity and honesty put us in somewhat of a quandry trying to figure out exactly what was going on with Logos 5. It's not that we felt you were intentinally cheating us; we just felt like you were neglecting us loyal and longtime customers.
I (we) anxiously await the soon-coming (we hope it won't be too long) free upgrade to Logos 5. Thanks again for all you and Logos do to help us be better Bible students. Peace to all.
L. Ritchie
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Thanks for the information.
What I want to be able to do is purchase ALL (not most) of Logos 5 new features/data sets without purchasing any new books - unless they are necesary for the new functionality.
None of the books in the L5 Gold upgrade seemed of much value - and hardly any were 'New to me'.
So, will ALL of the new features be available in a minimum crossgrade or should I purchase the Gold upgrade now to ensure that I do have them.
Since I have purchased lots of books for L4, the current cost of Gold upgrade to me is not bad ($272.00) - so minimal crossgrade would obviously need to be significantly less.
Pining (patiently?) for Logos 5 so I would appreciate a definitive answer plus more a precise time for availability of minimal crossgrade. Would you recommend sticking with Gold upgrade?
Many thanks
B
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21,000 reviews for this post. Isn't it time to release a minimum crossgrade [;)]
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Thanks for the praise, DMB. That means a lot. To God be the glory and to us be the giggles.
If I had any clue of how my comment might have stacked up, I would have probably replaced "whining" with an expression I learned from my Ranger Instructor, "sniveling like a rat eating onions". [8-|]
SDG,
Jeff
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Slava Novik said:
21,000 reviews for this post. Isn't it time to release a minimum crossgrade
Winner! [Y]
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Kempson, considering that You have everything You want from L5 Gold, I would recommend You the Big Crossgrade if You want full functionality and datasets. And to not upgrade nor downgrade at all. There are two different crossgrades comming, one bigger with full functionality and datasets, and one smaller.
The dynamic pricing applies to crossgrades too, Your price will be discounted.Brian Kempson said:Would you recommend sticking with Gold upgrade?
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Unix said:
Kempson, considering that You have everything You want from L5 Gold, I would recommend You the Big Crossgrade if You want full functionality and datasets. And to not upgrade nor downgrade at all. There are two different crossgrades comming, one bigger with full functionality and datasets, and one smaller.
The dynamic pricing applies to crossgrades too, Your price will be discounted.Brian Kempson said:Would you recommend sticking with Gold upgrade?
Just to add my belief that this is good advice. [Y]
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Dear Jeffrey,
I wasn't speaking about you in terms of cursing. Questioning for the purpose of getting an answer is a good thing. Motivation or attitude behind it is key. I am not saying it is wrong to question. Acrimony in any form for the sake of it among believers is a dangerous thing as Hebrews 12:15, "lest a root of bitterness spring from within and many be defiled." He that sows discord among brethren (cf. Proverbs 6:16-19) is an abomination to the LORD.
We are using Logos 4 and we do expect to be treated fairly for the price we have paid. Logos has done a great job in delivering such a product for the price we have paid. They have come up with a newer product (Logos 5) to this one and so they expect to be reimbursed in that regard for the work which they have done. The laborer is worthy of his hire afterall. Where we are placed in this scheme of things is simply a matter of whether we exercise patience.
It is possible that they do not have a certain date for Logos 5 crossgrade yet. It would be foolhardy on their part to put a date and not be able to fulfill it. I understand the frustrations. Believe me, I am one among you.
In Christ Alone and for HIs Glory
Revelation 1:3
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Naveen ... you sort of 'timed out'. The crossgrade went live while you were typing!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Well, I am an official user of L5
minimal cross grade purchased!L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Yup... I purchased too.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**0 -
I am first going to wait for the free engine to see if I am going cross-grade to L5.Tom Castle said:Yup... I purchased too.
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LOL, Tom.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**0 -
Shame I did not know this before I upgraded to Diamond. Many of the books in Diamond I already had. Now, I'm making a car payment each month for language books I don't need or use, for other sets I did not choose. I would have gladly paid 250 for an engine upgrade and would have chosen quite different product for the money I am spending.
Rickey
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Rickey Hargrave said:
Shame I did not know this before I upgraded to Diamond. Many of the books in Diamond I already had. Now, I'm making a car payment each month for language books I don't need or use, for other sets I did not choose. I would have gladly paid 250 for an engine upgrade and would have chosen quite different product for the money I am spending.
Rickey, why did you spend so much just to get L5 functionality? You didn't have to upgrade to Diamond, especially if it had lots of stuff you didn't want.
But there is hope. You can call Logos and ask to cancel your upgrade. They have a 30 day money back guarantee and it seems you would be someone who would want to take advantage of that.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Rickey Hargrave said:
Shame I did not know this before I upgraded to Diamond. Many of the books in Diamond I already had. Now, I'm making a car payment each month for language books I don't need or use, for other sets I did not choose. I would have gladly paid 250 for an engine upgrade and would have chosen quite different product for the money I am spending.
Rickey
I'm sure Logos will refund your money if you are dissatisfied. Call customer support to fix it.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Leonard T. Stitt said:
The fact that after 10 days since Bob's post, you still cannot easily find information
I'm sorry about that. It's been a bit chaotic, and especially for me. I was out of town almost constantly since that post, and have been offline more than I like. (I'm writing this from Milwaukee, where the Evangelical Theological Society is meeting; tomorrow it's off to Chicago for the Society of Biblical Literature.)
Last week i was told we'd put a summary of the same things that were in my forum post on the web site, but our team has been busy with lots of things that got in the way. I know excuses don't help -- and now it doesn't matter, since the minimal crossgrades are online -- but I can say that we've been putting out fires, fixing web-related bugs, and thinking for several days that the crossgrade would be going alive "tomorrow!" We still make bad predictions. In the meantime, our team started using this thread as the official post, and referred inquiries here. (Hence the huge view count.)
We have learned a lot from this launch. I'm sorry that we appear to have made some people angry enough that they've quit us, and I regret that, but I hope everyone will find the present options acceptable, and Logos 5 useful, and that this two-week launch chaos will, in time, seem like a minor episode in a product release three years in the making.
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Yay $6.14 to get the last data set
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Robin Monks said:
Yay $6.14 to get the last data set
Must be another happy Silver upgrader. Way to go!
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Hey, mine was 6.80 for the last dataset - I got ripped off!!! [:P]
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I suppose I upgraded it because that was what the upgrade calculator said to do to get the upgrade. I spent the better part of two days going through my library and what was offered, compared what I did not want to how much I would spend on things I did want, and got TIRED HEAD trying to figure it out.
I guess I was just old and stupid.
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I got the minimal crossgrade. Great work Logos. It is just so much faster on Windows 8.
Out of curiosity, I tried to see what my upgrade price would be now to the Silver package, and behold, it is now more expensive than it was before I got the crossgrade. Has the package been upgraded with more resources?
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Nope; as soon as you get any base package the rest become higher... I'd asked the same question earlier on the thread. If you want to, within 30 days, ask for a return of the cross-grade and do the upgrade to silver, then get the cross-grade again to get the last dataset (it'll work out cheaper in the end)..
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Rickey Hargrave said:
I guess I was just old and stupid.
Rickey, that isn't fair to yourself. Call Logos Sales and ask them to refund your money. There's nothing old and stupid about that. Be a happy customer, not one who is unhappy at Logos or at himself.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Rickey Hargrave said:
I suppose I upgraded it because that was what the upgrade calculator said to do to get the upgrade.
Yeah, I still think the marketing of 5 is still purposefully confusing in places... but, you should definitely return the base package if you're having buyer's remorse. I'm sure Logo's would rather have your long-term business than your short-term money.
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That is what I needed to do - silver first then add the last missing dataset through the crossgrade.
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Thanks Robin. That is complicated dynamic pricing for sure
. I am not as sincere in my Bible study as I ought to be, so spending more, as alluring as it is, is probably not the best option for me right now. I would like to get the Greek pronunciation add in though; is it available as a separate product? I remember seeing it for 19.95 eons ago (perhaps I am not thinking of the same product).
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Geo Philips said:
I would like to get the Greek pronunciation add in though; is it available as a separate product? I remember seeing it for 19.95 eons ago (perhaps I am not thinking of the same product).
Pronunciation tools were a 4 base feature, hence why they aren't in the cross grade. They used to be available for separate purchase for 3, but were removed at some point (http://web.archive.org/web/20101110161518/http://www.logos.com/product/1667/original-languages-addin). You could call support and see if you can work something out, otherwise you'll need to upgrade to at least a Bronze package.
(Coincidentally, the Logos 4 Original Languages package was $415.95 - the Bronze base package with much more in 5 is $629.95. You can likely upgrade to Bronze now for much less than Original Languages for 4 would have cost you previously).
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Robin Monks said:Rickey Hargrave said:
I suppose I upgraded it because that was what the upgrade calculator said to do to get the upgrade.
Yeah, I still think the marketing of 5 is still purposefully confusing in places... but, you should definitely return the base package if you're having buyer's remorse. I'm sure Logo's would rather have your long-term business than your short-term money.
I don't believe that. I'd rather believe that they are "stupid" rather than "evil". I think it's just great product with poor marketing. Might be they also cannot deliver the right message efficiently. I'm sure Logos will learn a lot from this launch.
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Robin Monks said:
Yeah, I still think the marketing of 5 is still purposefully confusing in places...
I assure you any confusion is not purposeful.
I'd love to know what you find confusing so we can continue to try to make things clearer.
Thanks!
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Robin Monks said:Geo Philips said:
I would like to get the Greek pronunciation add in though; is it available as a separate product? I remember seeing it for 19.95 eons ago (perhaps I am not thinking of the same product).
Pronunciation tools were a 4 base feature, hence why they aren't in the cross grade. They used to be available for separate purchase for 3, but were removed at some point (http://web.archive.org/web/20101110161518/http://www.logos.com/product/1667/original-languages-addin). You could call support and see if you can work something out, otherwise you'll need to upgrade to at least a Bronze package.
We will be making a revised version of the Logos 4 Minimal Crossgrade available for people who are a few version behind and want to get caught up with functionality in 4.
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Geo Philips said:
I got the minimal crossgrade. Great work Logos. It is just so much faster on Windows 8.
Out of curiosity, I tried to see what my upgrade price would be now to the Silver package, and behold, it is now more expensive than it was before I got the crossgrade. Has the package been upgraded with more resources?
Geo, see my response on another thread.
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Thanks Phil.
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Is there still a plan to offer a Minimal Crossgrade that is under $100? I own Leader's Library now, and I don't really need new books. I don't mind upgrading to a better package if I get commentaries that I will enjoy (but I just don't know I need), but I'm not interested in Greek language items, etc. Searching for all references to Timothy including pronouns would be a great feature though!
So I'm wondering if I should wait for the free functionality upgrade, bite the bullet on a Silver to get the new functionality, or get the Minimal Crossgrade at a price $60 higher than we've been discussing here for a while... thoughts?
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Kyle said:
Is there still a plan to offer a Minimal Crossgrade that is under $100? I own Leader's Library now, and I don't really need new books. I don't mind upgrading to a better package if I get commentaries that I will enjoy (but I just don't know I need), but I'm not interested in Greek language items, etc. Searching for all references to Timothy including pronouns would be a great feature though!
So I'm wondering if I should wait for the free functionality upgrade, bite the bullet on a Silver to get the new functionality, or get the Minimal Crossgrade at a price $60 higher than we've been discussing here for a while... thoughts?
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