Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!
Comments
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Thanks for this revelation Bob... to me it is not a clarification because I saw nothing about it at all before... clarity was not the issue. This info was absent. I am greatly relieved to know this. My finances are extremely limited right now so what was originally offered was out of my reach. I also appreciate what you said:
17 years ago we made a decision to sell content, not code. We did this because we didn't like how people were forced to buy upgrades to maintain access to their library when computers and operating systems changed or were upgraded. We wanted our users to be able to buy an electronic book and know that they wouldn't have to pay again to read it just because Microsoft Windows was updated.
Many years ago I bought the Expositor's Bible Commentary from Zondervan and used it with Windows 95 and 98 to great advantage. When I upgraded to Win XP, I had to buy it again (still with Zondervan) under the name Pradis 5.1. Now I am unable to use it with my newer computer and although I have already bought it twice, Logos tells me that to use it with my Logos Library, I must buy it a THIRD time. This is not right. I'm just sayin'...
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"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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No offense...but this launch was poorly handled. How many customers did you lose by rushing an incomplete launch. I am L4 Platinum user, been a customer since L2...all I want is to upgrade for new functionality not books. I will wait for the crossgrade, but I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time. Your strategy of "paying the bills" does not impact me since I am not a new customer. In fact, since it was terrible launch how many customers needlessly paid hundreds of dollars? Especially since you are fundamentally changing the way Logos will work, i.e. only Gold level receives full functionality, and without reading this post in the forum you may have duped many unsuspecting customers out of needed funds. One more bad launch like this and it could really cost you, and that would be a shame. But I still haven't decided to stay with you, again I wait for the crossgrade, and if I am not impressed, I am moving on to a company that has not lost sight of the most important thing, the customer.
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Scott Pixler said:
I had to buy it again (still with Zondervan) under the name Pradis 5.1. Now I am unable to use it with my newer computer and although I have already bought it twice, Logos tells me that to use it with my Logos Library, I must buy it a THIRD time. This is not right. I'm just sayin'...
1. I can read EBC in Pradis 5.1 and Pradis 6.0 running under Win7 64 bit. I don't know what newer computer you have that won't run it
2. What obligation does Logos have to give you a product just because Zondervan won't support their own product any more?
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Larry Sterling Jr. said:
I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time
I believe Bob has already explained that Server traffic and Logos's customer support and sales teams were incapable of handling all this activity at once. Imagine 70,000 people all leaving a stadium at once. Each fan believes he has a right to go to his car and drive straight to the exit, but the stadium staff and availability of traffic lanes means some people will have to wait longer than they want. In order to avoid road rage in the parking lot, they have chosen a staggered release.
It would have been impractical to buy new servers and hire/train more staff for a 3-4 week release of a new product.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David ... I didn't know that. I always wondered what all the cars did the minute the event was over.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Thomas: Imagine 70,000 people all leaving a stadium at once...
I hope you do not bend your hermenuetics around your own worldly ideas the way you analogized this one. What Logos did was more like making 70,000 people think they had to buy season tickets to be able to leave the stadium then back off to saying they would let those who bought season tickets leave and at some point, they would decide when and how the others could leave -- maybe in a week or two.
"For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Jas 2:2–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
I have it from a top man that Logos does aspire to adhere to Biblical principles while they also desire to righteously pay bills. They have conceded this was not the best job of marketing they could have done, so we need to forgive and move on -- lesson learned for all concerned. It will not help folks to move on though, if you try to paint this as done properly and anybody to who says otherwise is wrong.
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I wonder if many of us are not losing perspective over this issue, like I did? Richard Rohr, in an interesting lecture, pointed out that success has very little to teach us after the age of about 35. We need success up to that point for reasons of self-esteem, building confidence in our abilities, etc., but after age 35 he claims that we have more to learn from failure than from success. If failure and mistakes provide one of the most fertile grounds for learning then we can have nothing but confidence that customer service from Logos will go from strength to strength in the future.
What lasting damage has Logos done to us that is beyond forgiveness? Do we not still possess the best Bible software on the planet with the prospect of a free upgrade to make it even better? What have we lost? We still have the software we were so pleased with a few short weeks ago. We can still continue our ministries and our study unhindered. We've suffered a blow to our pride and a sting to our sense of self-importance as loyal customers. Maybe we needed that to reveal ourselves to ourselves and make us better followers of the crucified One? If so, then the mistakes that Bob acknowledged he made, (and apologized for), in launching L5 in the way he did, while placing us at a temporal disadvantage, but only in so far as the L5 upgrade is concerned, have done us ultimate (spiritual) good.
Is it possible to re-conceive our relationship with Logos on more than a business / customer basis? Could we not, rather, in some way see ourselves in fellowship with each other in the body of Christ? Can we see Logos in service to us providing us incredible tools for ministry and study which enable us to do our preparatory work more efficiently and effectively giving us more time for the other demands in our lives than we would otherwise have? Can we see ourselves in service to Logos, feeding back into Logos our experiences, needs and, yes, dissatisfactions, hurts and concerns to enable them to serve us better? And could it be with a spirit of forbearance and love in which we are prepared to carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ?
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Well, I know the ushers at our church check for gold rings and 'fine clothing'.
"Would that be Brooks Brothers, sir?" "Here ... let me provide you one of our best seats." (near the front where everyone else refuses to sit).
This caught my eye with the Semitic resource discussion on giving pearls to pigs (whether an aramaism or not).
This morning the javelina were blocking the street AGAIN. If only the NT had not banned pearls. "Here boy, here boy ... "
Ok ... back to trying to figure out the cars-in-the-stadium problem.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Phil Gons said:
We hope to have them ready and live sometime next week (assuming we don't run into any unforeseen complications).
Is this saying that the cross grade will be possibly available next week! That is great news if so!
My question is: "If their are various levels of "cross grade" and one wants the "whole ball of wax" would the price be above $100.00 as Bob mentioned in an earlier thread?
The reason I ask is I might be better off upgrading now due to some serious value in the L5 package option. Decisions, decisions
Can we have a price range guess?0 -
Jeff O'Neal said:
if you try to paint this as done properly and anybody to who says otherwise is wrong.
The point I was trying to make is that a little patience is helpful. I was not attempting to imply that "anybody who says otherwise is wrong". In a perfect world (if it ever existed) everybody would get what they want when they want it. But there are times when we each must wait longer than we wish.
I was trying to educate that there may be an additional perspective. Profit was not the ONLY consideration that prompted Logos to roll out the way they did. Bob has admitted that company profits were part of the equation, but electronic distribution and customer service were also considered.
Also, you have NO idea of my biblical hermeneutics and are out of line to imply they are improper! I was NOT attempting to explain a Biblical truth, I was attempting to illustrate the reality of limited access and staffing.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Michael, I can really sympathize with you. You should not have to do "diagnostic logging" or go through any other electronic manipulations to get the program which you spent more than a few dollars on to run.
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Dave M said:
Michael, I can really sympathize with you. You should not have to do "diagnostic logging" or go through any other electronic manipulations to get the program which you spent more than a few dollars on to run.
Would it then be better for him to be without the resources he purchased. If he is having problems that others are not having, how else can Logos find and correct the problem?
Besides, you have responded to a two-week old post. His last posts mentioned contact with Logos Tech Support. That was on November 2, but he never reported the final result of that contact—at least not in this thread. Since he never came back, I would assume that the problem was corrected. However, you may assume anything you wish.
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David,
As for #1, my new computer is a Macbook Pro and it definitely won't run my Pradis 5.1 Software which is made for WIn XP.
As for #2, We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it! It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership. I would compare this to losing the use of my car (which I already own) because the county or state government changed! I quoted Bob's statement about Logos's desire to not force people to re-purchase digital books merely because their operating system changed. That is essentially what is happening here and I don't see what is unreasonable or hard to understand about it!
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Scott Pixler said:
I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice!
You bought the limited rights to use it in a certain format. That is Zondervan's decision, not Logos'. Zondervan is the one who limited your rights when you purchased the product. Zondervan was very annoying about this, and it's one reason Pradis didn't succeed. You didn't buy unlimited rights to use it in any way you see fit. Most digital license agreements are specific about this.
Logos pays licensing fees to Zondervan for every Zondervan product they unlock in Logos. They just can't give Zondervan's products away for free.
Once you have a book in Logos format, then you will not have to pay again to use it in any Logos software. But if you switch software again, don't expect your Logos licenses to follow you to that new software. License agreements are very strict and limited to the companies involved. You won't find an unlimited use license anywhere, when it comes to copyrighted material.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Scott Pixler said:
We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it!
I hate to tell you this, but it is still true that you don't own it! When you purchase electronic media (other media as well), you are entering into a license agreement… That agreement gives you certain rights and responsibilities. The content holders want to restrict you as much as possible (they WANT you to purchase it over and over!). As a consumer, you (and I) want as much freedom as possible (some people would buy a book and give it away to all their friends). The agreement (plus sometimes digital rights management) is what keeps one side from walking over the other. Logos is a "middle man" and a "value added reseller." Logos must enforce the licensing agreements they have signed with publishers. Do do otherwise would be legally and morally wrong.
Another thing to consider: Logos is a "value added reseller." Logos doesn't give its users files which come straight from the publisher… they reformat them, add tagging, etc. When you purchase a Logos resource, a portion goes to Logos. Don't Logos employees have a right to eat? [;)]
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Scott Pixler said:
It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership.
Unfortunately, this statement is untrue. Unless Zondervan has made a special arrangement with Logos (and it seems they have not), Logos has to pay the publisher for every copy of a resource they unlock in a user's account. You may wish to contact Zondervan, since as the publisher they are presumably the ones with the power to waive this.
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ManilaDave said:
Is it possible to re-conceive our relationship with Logos on more than a business / customer basis? Could we not, rather, in some way see ourselves in fellowship with each other in the body of Christ? Can we see Logos in service to us providing us incredible tools for ministry and study which enable us to do our preparatory work more efficiently and effectively giving us more time for the other demands in our lives than we would otherwise have? Can we see ourselves in service to Logos, feeding back into Logos our experiences, needs and, yes, dissatisfactions, hurts and concerns to enable them to serve us better? And could it be with a spirit of forbearance and love in which we are prepared to carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ?
Peace to you, ManilaDave! *smile* I, for one, appreciate your very noble and Christ-Centred thoughts! Thank You!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Since Logos's reputation among publishers is crucial: much revolves around that.
alabama24 said:Logos is a "middle man" and a "value added reseller." Logos must enforce the licensing agreements they have signed with publishers. Do do otherwise would be legally and morally wrong.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Your pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.
This said from a user who bought the very first Logos program decades ago and has spent MANY thousands of dollars to get to the level of use (Platinum Edition) that I have currently.
Today I am in the process of removing all my pre-publication orders.
Good-bye from a long-time, loyal and now dissatisfied missionary user of Logos products.
Len Stitt
Executive Director
Sozo International
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Scott Pixler said:
David,
As for #1, my new computer is a Macbook Pro and it definitely won't run my Pradis 5.1 Software which is made for WIn XP.
As for #2, We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it! It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership. I would compare this to losing the use of my car (which I already own) because the county or state government changed! I quoted Bob's statement about Logos's desire to not force people to re-purchase digital books merely because their operating system changed. That is essentially what is happening here and I don't see what is unreasonable or hard to understand about it!
Scott, I understand your frustration. I have some programs that I purchased for Win 3.1 that will not work with newer Operating Systems (even within the Windows world). Several of my colleagues have found that switching form PC to MAC has involved running Parallels (or something similar) because a MAC won't do what their PC used to do.
See if this analogy may fit your situation. I own a car and just filled the tank with gas when the transmission goes out and the car won't run. I find myself buying a replacement vehicle. Is the dealer of the new vehicle under obligation to fill my gas tank simply because my previous vehicle had a full tank when it broke down?
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Hi Len - and welcome to the forums.
I would suggest you contact Logos directly to air your concerns. While Logos personnel do contribute to these forums they are mostly frequented by users who can't address grievances with Logos pricing and marketing strategy.
If, however, there are specific issues that we can potentially help clarify then please post back.
Graham
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Over here ferry-lines between the countries have two pricing models: they both offer a year-card, and they give discount to loyal customers.
Leonard T. Stitt said:Your pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Just called in and spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go ahead and purchase the crossgrade. I was told that he hasn't heard anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this week.
Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information.
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The time-frame is an estimate that Logos worker(s) could give, not official - they want a wiggle room of plus ~ 2 days or over the weekend of this week/minus ~ 1 day.
James Jordan said:spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go ahead and purchase the crossgrade. I was told that he hasn't heard anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this week.
Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Larry Sterling Jr. said:
No offense...but this launch was poorly handled. How many customers did you lose by rushing an incomplete launch. I am L4 Platinum user, been a customer since L2...all I want is to upgrade for new functionality not books. I will wait for the crossgrade, but I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time. Your strategy of "paying the bills" does not impact me since I am not a new customer. In fact, since it was terrible launch how many customers needlessly paid hundreds of dollars?
Larry, I agree that our launch wasn't executed as well as it should have been, and I'm very sorry for that. We underestimated how many people were not interested in continuing to build their libraries with more books at about 90% off our normal prices. To be sure, the majority of people have found our upgrade offerings quite compelling, but certainly not everyone. So we're working to make sure all customers are taken care of with options that meet their needs.
Larry Sterling Jr. said:Especially since you are fundamentally changing the way Logos will work, i.e. only Gold level receives full functionality, and without reading this post in the forum you may have duped many unsuspecting customers out of needed funds. One more bad launch like this and it could really cost you, and that would be a shame.
In Logos 4, you got all features and data at Scholar's, but that was when there were four packages below Scholar's and Scholar's was our middle package. Now Gold is our middle package, so we decided to make it the place at which you get all features and data. Our Core Datasets and Minimal Crossgrade will allow people who don't want books to get there relatively inexpensively.
Larry Sterling Jr. said:But I still haven't decided to stay with you, again I wait for the crossgrade, and if I am not impressed, I am moving on to a company that has not lost sight of the most important thing, the customer.
Thanks for giving us another opportunity to take care of you and earn your trust.
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Thanks to Todd, Alabama24, and many others for your patient responses to my complaint. I am a pastor, not a lawyer. I know I should read those ELUA pages when I am installing software, but I gave that up long ago because they were mostly incomprehensible anyway. I am sure you are all correct that legally I do not own Expositor's Bible Commentary as I thought I did. Sadly, when I purchased the digital version I had about half of the printed volumes which I gave away to students thinking that I would never need them again... I am a generous person and do not begrudge Logos employees their wages or desire to take food out of their mouths!
But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes. I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure! If I can get them free from google books or gutenburg,org, I will. Those will truly be "mine" in the old fashioned sense of the word. I apologize to Logos and all of her employees for any implication of wrongdoing that I may have made. I know this is not your fault. Even though you all are legally/technically correct, I still think that at the root of it all, the way these resources are sold digitally is not fair to me, the end user. It is really more like I am leasing them for a short while... I can't change the rules of digital publishing and distribution, but I can refuse to participate in the game. I will look for free e-books and buy myself used printed books instead.
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David,
Again, I appreciate your reply... As for your analogy with a car, It is more like you laid it out only I want to drain the gas out of my old car's tank to use in my new car and someone is telling me that I cannot do that because it is no longer my gas! That is how it feels to me!
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Scott Pixler said:
I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure! If I can get them free from google books or gutenburg,org, I will. Those will truly be "mine" in the old fashioned sense of the word. I apologize to Logos and all of her employees for any implication of wrongdoing that I may have made. I know this is not your fault. Even though you all are legally/technically correct, I still think that at the root of it all, the way these resources are sold digitally is not fair to me, the end user. It is really more like I am leasing them for a short while.
It requires a new mindset, I admit, but there are many benefits to the digital model. Printed books can be lost in many ways, and you'll always have to pay to replace them. Just because you own a commentary set in paper doesn't guarantee access for life: books can be lost in fire and floods, damaged by poor handling, and can be stolen or lost. In those cases, you'll have to buy the book again. Having paid for it once doesn't give you a right to a fresh copy.
None of these hazards applies to Logos resources which can be re-downloaded at any time. There's even a recent example in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/59432.aspx. Also, Logos resources can be willed to others. But most of all, Logos resources are so much easier to use than the thousands of pounds of equivalent paper books. Plus they have features that no paper book could ever have. Automated definitions, automatic commentary look-ups, quick access to highlighting and clippings, reference searches, linking between resources, access on multiple devices, etc., etc. You give up a lot to stick with only paper books. For me, it's an easy decision. (Especially after moving to a new house a few years ago)
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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