Is this desirable (social pressure)?
I have a hunger to straighten out theological, exegetical and Gk questions. But all this about upgrading, isn't it to a large part about social pressure?
I see others buying, studying, and knowing so much. I don't get envious about what books they own - I rarely look at what exact items others have. But this social pressure causes a stress to make up my mind quickly during the sale so that I get books that I desire.
But thinking about it from a different angle: if I would devote less hours to Christianity I wouldn't need to buy as many books
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I don't feel any of the social pressure you are speaking about.
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Clearly you don't understand the ethos of being a user of premium Bible software. You are suppose to buy as much as you can as often as you can for as long as you can. Then post on the website how wonderful it is to stretch you budget to the breaking point for such a superb product brought by God to a laptop near you. There is clearly no evidence of a culture of marketing adversely effectiving the strategic decisions of a company dedicated solely to providing God's Word to needy people across the world hooked up to the internet.
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I don't have internet at home.
My girlfriend is disappointed (not the reason at all why I wrote this post, the reason why I wrote this post that we had these type of things in class today and last week) that I spend so much time in front of Logos and printed prose about Christianity.Rene Atchley said:a company dedicated solely to providing God's
Word to needy people across the world hooked up to the internet.I'm just not good at all that many things: Christianity, metal workshop, two-stroke tuning (haven't been doing that for a while and I don't have a proper metal workshop and I'm not good at welding), bicycles, driving (which I do very little but I'm saving my study allowances to buy a moped-car), enjoying the local forests and animals, maybe Science and Economics (I would like studying to become a college engineer and then those subjects are included in the specific programme).
I would like to make a good impression on my girlfriend. I'm not sure what's the best. Yesterday she wrote that's she's impressed that I study a lot (but I'm sure she is not trying to encourage me to even more research in Christianity and being spiritual).
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Unix said:
But all this about upgrading, isn't it to a large part about social pressure?
To some extent. I think everyone is always looking for better performance and more features, but it seems that on rollout everyone must have it immediately. I'm waiting until they come out with the free engine and crossgrade. Perhaps I'll go the crossgrade route, but by that time I'll have evaluated whether I might want one of the packages. L4 works for me so I can wait.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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A number of thoughts come to mind as I read your post Unix. Last year I took advantage of a good deal concerning a Nelson bundle featuring the WBC series. I entered into a multi-month payment plan. While it was a payment amount I could afford, I promised myself that I would not enter into such a lengthy plan again. Therefore, I chose just a Silver upgrade for Logos 5, allowing me to only have to make a single payment.
We read posts throughout the year of customers bitter towards Logos; folks who have made an impulsive purchase that they now regret. I completely understand the excitement associated with encountering Logos, how it can deepen personal Bible study, and assist those who teach and preach the Word.
However, I remember reading a recent light-hearted (I trust) post from someone who said after an expensive upgrade to Logos 5, "This thing better write the sermons." Of course, Logos by itself does not accomplish anything. Students need to actually roll-up their sleeves and "handle" the Biblical texts and read good resources. True it does provide amazing convenience, powerful searches, and analysis, but good sermons have always come from God, who is somehow able to also include the speaker in the process. He did a similar thing with the writers of the NT, and with all believers in His church. Anyway, how sad it would be for the Church to feed upon a diet of computer generated sermons.
If one considers how very little Biblical training most of the first century elders, pastors, teachers, and other Christians received, I mean in some cases just months or even weeks, and yet time and again the apostles (especially Paul) would send them out to "turn the world upside down." And as I said, this was not just the so-called "lay" Christian, but included elders, pastors, and teachers too.
Moreover, if you agree that the ultimate purpose of Bible study on the personal level is to conform each us to a measure of the beautiful character of the Lord Jesus Christ, will we not be held accountable for not putting into practice these large Logos' libraries? Perhaps there will come a day when customers will be ashamed of their large libraries. I hope not.
Getting back to your post, last week I suggested that a more sustainable model for customers would be for Logos to sell its program completely separate from its resources. This would require a major shift in the mindset and business model for Logos to be sure, and would be based upon the premise that purchasing a complete, fully-functional program would be less costly to customers, while at the same time provide sufficient funding to Logos to meet its obligations. This would take the burden off the company to sell resources.
Anyway, I do understand the pressure you are feeling Unix. While it may be common in other areas of life, it tugs even stronger on the heart given that we are talking about Bible study. And, yet so many giants of the faith lived and preached mightily with just a Bible in their hand. Logos by itself will not create better Christians or teachers/preachers; that's the Spirit's sole responsibility. However, if one is prudent with Logos, it most definitely can be a very rewarding experience.
Regards
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As a seminarian, my professors have all quoted Erasmus (he bought books like they were going out of style, then clothes, and if money was left he bought food).
There is a near constant stream of judgements being passed down based upon our libraries (one prof says I can tell graduates of the seminary based upon the fact they have an extensive library, or worse, "A student had me over for supper, and while we were visiting showed me his library. I was ashamed that he hadn't expanded it since graduation", and so forth).
Presumably this pressure exists in other seminaries and doctoral programs, and our habits RE Logos (At least for some, and to some extent) can be tied somewhat into this pressure to always be reading something new and deeper.
At first I was a little put out by this pressure, but I've come to embrace it. I hit upon the idea that people are like metal, and good teaching like a magnet. The longer a metal is exposed to a magnet the better magnet the metal becomes. Likewise with the strength of the original magnet.
Of course the analogy breaks down at a certain point because it is beneficial to us to read views of authors we disagree with. This is one reason I wish there was more indication of what faith tradition some of the resources come from.
They probably wouldn't add this for the simple reason that not everyone is from this perspective - some (lets pick on baptists, because I am one) would only purchase books from their tradition. The old joke about the non-denominational man who goes to heaven and is shown from room to room - each room representing a different faith tradition comes to mind. In the end, the man is shown the baptist room, and Peter (or Paul) says shh... they think they are the only ones up here.
I suppose this means I'll just have to continue manually researching various resources before (and in the case of base packages, and the journal library - after) purchase.
Unix - it sounds like you are struggling with "impulse buying" more than peer pressure (or social pressure). My grandmother (whom I loved dearly, and is one of my heroes of the faith) was a bargain hunter like no other, and towards the end of her life while I was helping her shop, she tried to teach me her ways, and one of them was that just because something is cheap today, doesn't mean its a good deal.
I'm sure all of the sales going on now ARE good deals, but that doesn't mean we want them, or need them in order to faithfully study the word.
As to your second post, Girls like to see passion for things in the lives of their men... It could be she is noticing that.
Any way, that and a dollar might buy you a cup of coffee somewhere haha.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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For a younger man with a screen name of "Unix," there may be some "peer pressure" or just old-fashioned "desire" (not necessarily a bad thing; it is good to be passionate about our work).
But I am an older man, retired from a career in software (1975-2008) that paid my bills and supported my household while I pursued my vocation (which did not pay very much) related to the study and teaching of Scripture and spirituality. In my case, I have owned paper copies of much of my Logos library over the past 35 years, such as Greek New Testaments, lexicons, concordances, and the same for Hebrew and Latin, patristic literature, etc. Over the decades I have bought new editions of some things, added some areas of study (in paper books) and also given many, many books away to younger folks. Some years ago my wife insisted that there be a limit to the physical size of my paper library, and so for the last ten years I have practiced the discipline of giving away a book every time I add one. And paper books are increasingly expensive.
An additional fact is that a good portion of the paper books on my shelves are not easily available in the United States. My wife will tell you that on our last trips to Italy I have given away most of my clothes to the poor (including a nice suit I wore to a function), so that I may make room in my suitcase to return with books that are hard to find back home. And I have experienced paper books being lost in shipping (in the US) after being ordered and paid from from Europe.
With that background, I find that my Logos library has several advantages: I do not have to store the books on shelves in my apartment; I do not have to move them around armful by armful if necessary; I can add books without having to get rid of something on my shelf (which enables a much broader reading); I do not have to keep buying paper copies of new editions (e.g. NA28). And the indexing and cross-referencing, the hyperlinks and parallel structures in the Logos datasets are fantastic tools.
Perhaps it is a result of being older, and having already lived several decades as a missionary, a minister, a Bible teacher and a spiritual advisor (we practice a material simplicity in our home) but I do not find peer-pressure to be much of my experience. You do know the old story about the journalist that interviewed a woman who was celebrating her 100th birthday? The reporter asked, "What is the best thing about turning 100?" "No peer pressure," was the reply.
Peace
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Ken Baker said:
Presumably this pressure exists in other seminaries and doctoral programs, and our habits RE Logos (At least for some, and to some extent) can be tied somewhat into this pressure to always be reading something new and deeper.
At first I was a little put out by this pressure, but I've come to embrace it. I hit upon the idea that people are like metal, and good teaching like a magnet. The longer a metal is exposed to a magnet the better magnet the metal becomes. Likewise with the strength of the original magnet.
Of course the analogy breaks down at a certain point because it is beneficial to us to read views of authors we disagree with. This is one reason I wish there was more indication of what faith tradition some of the resources come from.
They probably wouldn't add this for the simple reason that not everyone is from this perspective - some (lets pick on baptists, because I am one) would only purchase books from their tradition. The old joke about the non-denominational man who goes to heaven and is shown from room to room - each room representing a different faith tradition comes to mind. In the end, the man is shown the baptist room, and Peter (or Paul) says shh... they think they are the only ones up here.On the contrary, Logos does include works whose views most of its customers would not accept. I have encountered threads on the forum where some were put off by the fact that Logos is publishing them. I say, "Hooray for Logos. Let a thousand flowers bloom …"
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ken Baker said:I'm sure all of the sales going on now ARE good deals, but that doesn't mean we want them, or need them in order to faithfully study the word.
Anything you will not put to good use, is never a good deal, no matter what the asking price may be. Can't really speak for the rest of the planet, but here in the US there is a strong desire among the majority to posses the next big thing. Apparently, they urge exists among Logos users also.
Rather, each person should look ate the package comparison chart and select the package that will most closely meet their need—and their wallet, of course. Any package will contain some fluff—stuff you will never use—so just analyze the content for what you will actually use.
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Some of the new datasets make me more efficient at studying God's Word (The Bible Word Study in L4 was a HUGE breakthrough for me!)
The variety of resources is not merely an attempt to accumulate size or attain a greater label - I realize that God's Spirit has spoken to others in the Body of Christ and that they often share these experiences and understanding via books. Out of respect for the Body, I desire to listen to and learn from others (sometimes even those with which I may disagree).
If a library has not grown since Seminary, it MAY be an indication that the student believes he has already attained. One of my life values is to be a lifelong learner (Phil 1:6) and so adding resources is ONE way of allowing the Holy Spirit to continue to speak to me through others in the Body of Christ.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David Thomas said:
If a library has not grown since Seminary, it MAY be an indication that the student believes he has already attained. One of my life values is to be a lifelong learner (Phil 1:6) and so adding resources is ONE way of allowing the Holy Spirit to continue to speak to me through others in the Body of Christ.
Absolutely. I think it is important to learn something new each day—even though that something may be minor.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I say, "Hooray for Logos. Let a thousand flowers bloom …"
I buy resources that reflect many various views. If my funds are limited, I first buy the ones I respect and find most useful. If I have extra funds I will buy those I find less so. I do strive to have the flagship works of every major denomination. I am not so closed-minded as to believe I have all the answers.
Yes, "let a thousand flowers bloom." [W] [W] [W] [W] [W]
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"Our malicious and wily hypocrites ... with wresting the scripture unto their own purpose clean contrary unto the process, order, and meaning of the text ... so delude [the laymen] in descanting upon it with allegories, and amaze them expounding it in many senses before the unlearned lay people (when it hath but one simple literal sense whose light the owls cannot abide), that though thou feel in thine heart and art sure how that all is false that they say, yet couldest thou not solve their subtle riddles. Which thing only moved me to translate the New Testament. Because I had perceived by experience, how that it was impossible to stablish the lay people in any truth, except the scripture were plainly laid before their eyes in their mother tongue, that they might see the process, order, and meaning of the text."
— William Tyndale
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Unix said:
a stress to make up my mind quickly during the sale so that I get books that I desire
I relate to this description, it's like the Christmas buying rush. Generally, whenever I feel what you describe as this rush, I feel that it is a red flag. This does not necessarily mean that the purchase in question would be a wrong decision, but that it could be the result of a wrong decision-making process/habit which on other occasions would lead to bad decisions. Self-control is certainly an important virtue advocated in the Scriptures. Financially, we are also God's stewards and should be careful about "pulling the trigger" of the wallet too quickly, provoked as it were by sale fever.
I think the excitement of a new release and attractive features certainly add to the mix and is analogous to that which comes from any new tech.
I own a lot of resources but I do try to restrain myself. Sadly, I must admit that there have been unfortunately too many times when I bought and later felt that this might not have been the godliest use of money. Just because these are "spiritual" resources does not mean that we cannot hoard and accumulate unspiritually.
I can understand why you might want to impress your girlfriend. Remember however, that the kind of girlfriend/wife you should desire is a godly person. She should be impressed by your own godliness if it is genuine, that is, you seeking to please God FIRST, not people, not even her: the Lord ALWAYS first. Seek then to do what pleases the Lord and if it aligns with what she prizes, you probably have a keeper!
Finally, concerning resources, the academia has gone crazy in many ways and its concerns frequently leave those of practical discipleship behind or beside (not always). Moreover, a lot of what is written rehashes and furthers extra-biblical traditions and fads. It is quite a challenge for anyone who really wants to be a faithful disciple of Christ to hear the Word without all the distortions. This would be the primary reason I would advocate to anyone to study for yourself (even while interacting with others and being taught, where appropriate, by their expertise and faithfulness to the Word). Having key resources AND functionalities that help you do that is judicious if you can afford it, and in keeping with your own abilities and qualifications to study (some of which we can improve).
I once read somewhere that a good purchase is one that you should be able to postpone deliberately for the purpose of composure and reflection (including prayer). If the money burns your hands, or if you feel pressure from the craze, deadlines, or even a girlfriend, make sure you first be still, know that He is God, and then go from there.
Blessings to you. Follow Christ.
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George Somsel said:
I think it is important to learn something new each day
Just think of the enormous amount of knowledge a man of your years must have accumulated [:D]
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Jack Caviness said:George Somsel said:
I think it is important to learn something new each day
Just think of the enormous amount of knowledge a man of your years must have accumulated
Yes, in 38 yrs x 365 I should have learned 13870 new facts ! [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I don't know if there was a misunderstanding, but my girlfriend is remarking at my research. More knowledge within Christianity and Biblical Gk won't impress her.
I've started a thread about another issue: GF freaks out when I say that I'm good with kids
I am putting strains on myself. I had the logos.com/upgrade in the web browser, went home yesterday evening and sat for hours looking through the list of books, writing a Notepad document where I put prices for the desirable items (couldn't check the actual prices since I don't have internet, but it's a good excercise - tells me something about how I value the items and/or what I expect them to cost). I lowered my upgrade plans another step.Right now I'm in the process of asking the theological college which books they require and looking at whether any of those are in the Silver base-package.
As usual, I also looked at what I DON'T want.
The question is whether I'll really have time to read everything and make notes and highlightings. The base-packages are ~ ½ of my total costs if I upgrade to Silver. I have somewhat much pre-orders (for example Anabaptist and Mennonite Studies Collection (16 vols.), I will be studying Anabaptism in the college, Popular Patristics Series, Part 1 (10 vols.), Ben Witherington III Collection (5 vols.)), two small CP pre-orders.Since the Spring I have a plan what to do if I run out of money: cancel the Catholic Practicum: Learn to Use Logos Bible Software pre-order. So probably I don't order it.
The budget for the Believer's Church Bible Commentary, http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=Believer%27s+Church+Bible+Commentary is also flexible - I'll only order the volumes I REALLY, REALLY want.
What I've decided since I didn't want Platinum anylonger a few days ago, whether or not I upgrade (Silver lacks many titles that I desire) is that I'll order little-by-little. It's not easier to afford that way (I don't want to take much from my study allowance) but it'll give me a lot of time to really think what to order.
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George Somsel said:Jack Caviness said:George Somsel said:
I think it is important to learn something new each day
Just think of the enormous amount of knowledge a man of your years must have accumulated
Yes, in 38 yrs x 365 I should have learned 13870 new facts !
Almost a year younger than the last time you remarked about your age. Whatever you are drinking is good for you
Unix, please forgive me for hijacking your thread [:$]
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Unix said:
I don't know if there was a misunderstanding, but my girlfriend is remarking at my research. More knowledge within Christianity and Biblical Gk won't impress her.
I once knew a fellow who was gifted by God to be a magnficent concert pianist. He was engaged to be married to a woman who was jealous of his passion for the piano. She told him to choose between playing the piano or marrying her. [8]
I think it was a good thing they did not get married. Just sayin'....... [:^)]
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My grandfather, from my mothers side had a passion for sailing. They argued about where to put the money and divorced and he took one of the two children.
Well, I like caring for my girlfriend. I have a need to care for someone and that includes not leaving her.
I'm proud of books - just talked in a class about family values, incomes and books. I feel the adrenalin pumping. I'm proud of what I know and what I have.Super Tramp said:I once knew a fellow who was gifted by God to be a magnficent concert pianist. He was engaged to be married to a woman who was jealous of his passion for the piano. She told him to choose between playing the piano or marrying her.
I think it was a good thing they did not get married.
The PROBLEM is how much time to spend on Christianity.
Just generally speaking of the whole population: I think that many people think that to have moral doesn't require much knowledge of Christianity or a tenable Theology. I would say they are definately wrong and that Ethics starts with religion and goes beyond with more "restricted" (if You want to use a negative term) values. (But on a sidenote: I don't give to beggars - I think the Bible is saying that the thief should work with his/her hands and earn a living. The Bible speaks a lot about productivity, many times more than about giving to beggars.)
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I talked to my girlfriend today, and then showed her this discussion. Now she feels better about me and stopped remarking on all this.
Today during a class, I started to have such a great feeling. Joyous.Disclosure!
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On the contrary, Logos does include works whose views most of its
customers would not accept. I have encountered threads on the forum
where some were put off by the fact that Logos is publishing them. I
say, "Hooray for Logos. Let a thousand flowers bloom …"-----
No, I wasn't referring to Logos not PUBLISHING material of a different background, I was referring to them not PUBLICIZING the backgrounds of a particular work.
Not everyone believes as you and I do, that its beneficial to know the opposing views.
Some (customers) might read that a series is pentecostal, or catholic, or southern baptist, and reconsider their decision.
As they say, there are many fish in the sea - don't feel you are stuck with just the one. God has someone out there perfect for you. You may already be with her, or maybe not, who but the Lord can say for sure?!Also to the man who quoted me, and then said "here in America" - where do you think I'm from? Do I type with an accent? I am of the persuasion that we Floridians don't have accents... Just the rest of the world [;)]
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Ken Baker said:
Also to the man who quoted me, and then said "here in America" - where do you think I'm from? Do I type with an accent? I am of the persuasion that we Floridians don't have accents... Just the rest of the world
Hey, bro, you've been hanging around those Cubans too much. I can see their influence in your typing accent. [;)] [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ken Baker said:
As they say, there are many fish in the sea - don't feel you are stuck with just the one. God has someone out there perfect for you. You may already be with her, or maybe not, who but the Lord can say for sure?!
[:D] I hope you don't say that to married couples who are in counseling. [:O] Let's go fishing. [6]
Ken Baker said:No, I wasn't referring to Logos not PUBLISHING material of a different background, I was referring to them not PUBLICIZING the backgrounds of a particular work.
I think the Sales Department at Logos probably knows better than to publicize some resources. Some people get mad over having lots of different Bible versions. Imagine what their reaction would be to peruse the entire Logos catalog. Shh. [:#]
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