A major upset

Why do I have to pay in order to use Logos 5 when I already have a massive library in Logos 4? I bought the library with the pretence that upgrades to new software would be free. Now I just spent all this money on something that is now outdated and I have to spend more to get the upgrade. This is outrageous.

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Michael Meiser

The free core engine for L5 will be available Q1 of 2013. Check out this post by Logos CEO Bob Pritchett. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58003/413101.aspx#413101

DominicM

Logos 4 is not dead.. there are still future releases planned..

some guys have been waiting 2 years for v5 and change in dotnet for better RTL language support... but the change would have meant a section of users would be forced to upgrade hardware.. the choice was made to support that userbase.. Outragous is a little strong IMO..

MJ. Smith

Your massive library and your Logos 4 functions continue to be available. I would call that outdated but then again my car is a decade old. Upgrade to the new software is free and the functions that work off your current resources are upgraded. All that you buy is the datasets/resources to support new functions if you want that function. You will find a large number of threads explaining this - some with input from Logos employees.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426386#Comment_426386

the crossgrade is paying for the new features and functions.. you are not paying for reading your books again.. just more useability/functionality

Paul N

Hello Steven!

The best way I can understand it, is that your book investment is future proofed as long as Logos is present.

They will provide you some way to access your library without cost amidst OS upgrades, changing trends, new technology, etc.

I think what people are getting confused with in L5 is that Logos has packed it with integrated resource functionality. They've gone beyond providing a platform to view the resources you've purchased with new data sets and tagging to improve your Bible study.

L4 is not outdated, and as Michael pointed out the free L5 core engine is coming, but Logos isn't forcing you to pay in order to progress with the program.

Dave Hooton

Now I just spent all this money on something that is now outdated and I have to spend more to get the upgrade.

The resources are not outdated but there have been changes to the software and some new features have been incorporated. To enable these new features you can purchase the Minimal Crossgrade from the Upgrade page for about $140 - $160, which is a lot cheaper than upgrading to Gold which has all the features.

Alternatively, you can purchase a subset called Core Datasets for $80 or wait for the free engine.

Ralph Wood

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426394#Comment_426394

Hi Steven,

There are literally hundreds of posts just like yours - most of them made about 8 to 10 days ago. Like yourself, many of us were somewhat taken aback with the initial announcement...but we spent hours perusing the forum posts to gather facts and opinions about the launch of L5. The forum is chock full of varying responses to the question you raise. I suggest that you fix a pot of coffee, prop of your feet with laptop in lap and invest a few hours browsing through those forum posts to bring yourself up-to-date.

If I had a nickel for every minute I've spent reading posts on L5 to help me make my decision, I could probably buy the new Portfolio L5 package! [:D] Night before last I decided that I was finally at the point I could make that decision and I purchased the cross grade for $160 along with a few desired commentary sets. I am tickled pink with my decision. (I had the L4 Leader package)

Sir Maru

Why do I have to pay in order to use Logos 5 when I already have a massive library in Logos 4? I bought the library with the pretence that upgrades to new software would be free. Now I just spent all this money on something that is now outdated and I have to spend more to get the upgrade. This is outrageous.

I just analyzed my spending at Amazon for the last 12 months. I spent $ 510 for a Kindle Paperwhite and a Kindle Fire HD 7" 32 Gb unit plus required accessories and only $ 162 for new eBooks and Apps on history, biography and Bible Study.

Thus, Amazon has a similar model to Logos. Amazon makes most of their money on us buying the enablhing hardware. Logos makes most of their money selling us enabling software from time to time.

The eBook prices do NOT cover what the sellers need to stay in business and make a handsom profit.

If you want to avoid all those costs, just buy the pBooks at much higher prices and much less convenience or borrow them from your local library at zero cost without any advanced features.

Frankly, I'd like to see Logos enhance their version 5 software so I could buy all its features to use on my Kindle hardware. I don't mind paying both retailers more for even more enhanced convenience. Right now the Logos Android features fall far short compared to my AcroBible and my Zondervan NIV Study Bible from Tecarta for my Kindle hardware.

Thus, I will probably NOT buy the Logos 5 upgrade until all its datasets and features show up in their Android App. Logos' only error that I can see is missing the fact that PC use for Bible Study has moved over to Kindle use for millions of users who rarely access their PC Apps anymore for reading eBooks. Between Amazon Kindles and Apple iPads the PC's are getting less and less attention from book readers. That is THE major technological change we have seen in the publishing business in the last 5 years.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426482#Comment_426482

Logos' only error that I can see is missing the fact that PC use for Bible Study has moved over to Kindle use for millions of users who rarely access their PC Apps anymore for reading eBooks. Between Amazon Kindles and Apple iPads the PC's are getting less and less attention from book readers.

However, Logos is not primarily an ebook reader. It is a research tool. My wife has a Kindle and I have looked at iPads. If all I wanted to do was read a book, they might be alright, but for serious Bible Study, they are far too cramped. It is like using a tack hammer to frame a house [8-|]

Sir Maru

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426520#Comment_426520

Logos' only error that I can see is missing the fact that PC use for Bible Study has moved over to Kindle use for millions of users who rarely access their PC Apps anymore for reading eBooks. Between Amazon Kindles and Apple iPads the PC's are getting less and less attention from book readers.

However, Logos is not primarily an ebook reader. It is a research tool. My wife has a Kindle and I have looked at iPads. If all I wanted to do was read a book, they might be alright, but for serious Bible Study, they are far too cramped. It is like using a tack hammer to frame a house

My PC today has 1.35 Tb of storage and I am only using 27 Gb of it for everything. My Kindle Fire HD has 32 Gb and I still have 23 Gb left free after placing all the eBooks, apps, videos, and songs that I own on it.

Thus, there is plenty of room left for huge amounts of software and eBooks on the "little" Kindle. I'm sure there is more than enough room to hold the most expensive Logos 5 collection available now. Finally, the Kindle HD 7" 32 Gb battery lasts SEVEN hours of continuous use on a full charge. That's enough to spend many days away from the house with it as long as one remembers to close the cover (automatic sleep mode) when not in use.

The big advantage of the Kindle is portability. I can carry it in a messenger bag or my wife's pocketbook. I cannot carry a Notebook or PC around with me. As I remember only a few years ago PC's had less storage than my present Kindle.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426482#Comment_426482

Amazon makes most of their money on us buying the enablhing hardware.

In fact the opposite is true. Amazon makes no profit on their hardware, they sell it at cost and make it up with content sales. You can find this many places, but here's one source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/10/12/amazon-makes-no-hardware-margins-on-the-kindle/

Logos makes most of their money selling us enabling software from time to time.

I would imagine it's much the same for Logos as for Amazon. Considering all the work put into the Bible Sense Lexicon alone, not even to mention the other databases and the development of the software itself, I would be surprised if they even break even if you only count software sales. If I were to venture a guess, I would say that Logos operates at fairly low margins on the whole, but makes up for it to a degree with sales of public domain works for which their digitizing costs are already paid. Things like Early Church Fathers and Creeds of Christendom are, at this point 99.9% profit (allowing .1% for maintenance and updates). I know a lot of folks gripe about the cost of public domain works, but don't take into account that they defray the costs of other items and keep their prices down.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426482#Comment_426482

Thus, I will probably NOT buy the Logos 5 upgrade until all its datasets and features show up in their Android App.

I would not count on seeing that any time in the near future. I use an iPad and my wife has a kindle fire. The apps Logos provides (free to everyone) for those devices are sufficient for what I would do away from my desk. I would not even attempt the kind of study processes I undertake on either of those devices; even if the app did support those tools and features.

I would to see some improvements to both IOS and Android, and the mobile teams have indicated those improvements are coming.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426482#Comment_426482

Thus, I will probably NOT buy the Logos 5 upgrade until all its datasets and features show up in their Android App.

WOW be prepared for a very long wait. The state of the art Android hardware is probably comparable to desktop computers circa 2002, ten going on eleven years old. This is several generations of hardware old, and what has slowed down the advancement of CPUs in the last ten years is heat dissipation, which is even a worse problem in mobile devices compared to desktop computers. Given the computing needs of today's software in CPU, display, memory, and storage technology, the Logos of today will not be on a mobile device for easily ten years, and by then where will the desktop version be?

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426556#Comment_426556

Thus, there is plenty of room left for huge amounts of software and eBooks on the "little" Kindle. I'm sure there is more than enough room to hold the most expensive Logos 5 collection available now.

You misread my post. Not concerned with the storage capabilities of Kindle, etc. It is the lack of real screen real-estate. They are fine for reading a single book; however, the screen quickly become so cluttered as to be useless if you attempt any serious research.

I use an iPad

Other former Windows users started this way [:D]

I would not even attempt the kind of study processes I undertake on either of those devices; even if the app did support those tools and features.

My point exactly.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426482#Comment_426482

I'm sorry but I disagree with your statements (a number of which are factually incorrect) so much that I almost don't know where to start.

Thus, Amazon has a similar model to Logos. Amazon makes most of their money on us buying the enablhing hardware. Logos makes most of their money selling us enabling software from time to time.

Completely wrong. Amazon makes almost no money selling hardware. They are not interested in the hardware, they sell hardware as a 'loss leader' to lock you into their platform from whence they proceed to milk you for money while squeezing book publishers because they have basically a monopoly on end consumers. The situation with Logos is that they, until now, make very little on their application software platform, they get revenue from sales of books. That is becoming an issue because they are moving into 'value add' features like DataSets which take a lot of human time investment.

If you want to avoid all those costs, just buy the pBooks at much higher prices and much less convenience or borrow them from your local library at zero cost without any advanced features.

What's your point here? Avoid costs by paying more costs? For zero functionality?

Frankly, I'd like to see Logos enhance their version 5 software so I could buy all its features to use on my Kindle hardware. I don't mind paying both retailers more for even more enhanced convenience.

Don't hold your breath, the Kindle is a closed platform, and the Kindle is not Android. And Logos 5 software can't be 'enhanced' to run on Amazon's proprietary clone of someone else's software because the two platforms are totally separate and worlds apart.

Thus, I will probably NOT buy the Logos 5 upgrade until all its datasets and features show up in their Android App.

OK.

Let me ask you though... which 'upgrade' are you referring to?

The application upgrade? Not applicable to the mobile applications, the upgrade is for Windows/OS X platform — so you don't have to buy it.
The new collections? Don't need/want the books — don't buy any of the new collections.

So you don't have to buy anything — so what are you complaining about? Where I grew up there was a saying, "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Logos' only error that I can see is missing the fact that PC use for Bible Study has moved over to Kindle use for millions of users who rarely access their PC Apps anymore for reading eBooks.

Your main error is thinking that Logos 5 is just an eBook reader, and ignoring what Logos has already provided on mobile platforms.

The Logos iOS and Android applications are designed to provide functionality which those OS and hardware platforms can manage effectively — reading electronic books from one's Logos library, as many books as one wishes — I'll be long dead before I could even read cover to cover a tenth of the books in my Logos library. They even go further and allow things like searches across one's complete library, and even Bible Word Study and Passage Guides. And no doubt they are looking at enhancing their native mobile apps to incorporate new functionality (that is concepts and ideas for biblical analysis) found in Logos 5.

Where they won't venture (if they have any brains) is into those areas where mobile platforms start to run out of steam — screen size and processing power. One day we might get to a 'Minority Report' technology level where a cube that fits in your hand can project onto a 50"+ interactive virtual screen — but to quote a realistic character from a notable movie, "...but it is not this day".

Jeffrey Visser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426599#Comment_426599

I have several resources that I use logos on. Each one has a purpose and is configured for that purpose.

Windows desktop for research (and my day job): (3 years old) Windows 7, I7 processor, 24GB RAM, 8TB (2TB free) hard drive, 4 monitors in an inverted T. Great study and research environment. Runs logos 5 beautifully - love the floating windows. Not very portable!

Andriod tablet for Bible study: (4 months old) Asus Transformer, 10" screen 32GB storage (but has sd slot and usb for more) Runs logos for android. Works great for bible reading, but not so good for any kind of study. Often when I am out, I don't have internet access so i need to choose which books to download. But even with additional books, it is cumbersome to do any study.

Windows tablet (replacement for a non-functioning laptop): (2 yrs old) EP 121 I5 processor, 4GB ram, 64GB hard drive. I just loaded logos 5 ( i had taken 4 off due to space issues) Once the indexing was complete, it runs runs great. The screen layout is set up for a larger screen of a windows desktop so there isn't enough real estate for the text, but it has all of the functionality as my desktop so I can look something up when I am out without the need to connect to the internet. I will go to my first Bible study with this setup next week.

Yes, I have been blessed on the technology side, but that is not the reason I posted this. I posted this for nothing more than to make a point that Logos works in several different environments. Each environment has a different purpose as well as positives and negatives. Even if my android device was capable of doing everything my PC could do, I still would n't use it for my Bible study - there just isn't enough screen there to do a good job. Desktop computers are on their way out for some users. All some users need is the internet and email. - for those users a tablet is great. But for other users, the PC will be around for quite a while. It will change from it's current design and enhances, but it will remain.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426674#Comment_426674

Windows 7, I7 processor, 24GB RAM, 8TB (2TB free) hard drive, 4 monitors in an inverted T. Great study and research environment.

THAT's want I want for Christmas!

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426574#Comment_426574

Other former Windows users started this way

I'm not a total windows fanatic Jack. Send me one of those new iMacs and I will use it. [:P]

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426690#Comment_426690

I think another thing Jack is referring to is it's not even just screen size with the Kindle and iPad that makes them impractical for hardcore Bible study (with the exception of the Logos iOS app that offers some powerful functionality for mobile devices), is that's the Kindle and iBooks are mainly book readers. There's a few minor searching capabilities on there, but they're meant for reading. Logos does far more. It's meant for hardcore serious research. It's as if I walked into a large seminary library, snapped my fingers, and every book in the library flew off the shelves and had all the pages bookmarked to the correct information I needed and all neatly organized into systematic groups.

With Logos 5, Logos is even getting closer to becoming a digital Bible scholar. With the new databases, Logos is going in the direction where not only do I have my own personal research assistant at my fingertips, but I've also hired an entire team of Bible scholars to labor over the Word and find me far more information that I'd ever receive on a pure search engine alone.

Jeffrey Visser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426688#Comment_426688

It was much less expensive than you would think. Most of the pieces were on sale when I bought them. I think I paid more for software than the hardware (Logos included) Black Friday is coming...

Sean Lillis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426688#Comment_426688

Windows 7, I7 processor, 24GB RAM, 8TB (2TB free) hard drive, 4 monitors in an inverted T. Great study and research environment.

THAT's want I want for Christmas!

Yeah...I'd love to see a pic of that bad boy!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426688#Comment_426688

Windows 7, I7 processor, 24GB RAM, 8TB (2TB free) hard drive, 4 monitors in an inverted T. Great study and research environment.

THAT's want I want for Christmas!

A few months ago, Dell Outlet had a Twitter sale that included a Vostro 670 with 3rd Generation Quad Core i7 and graphics card with dual link DVI.

Microcenter has a 27" LED Monitor for $ 399.99 with 2560 x 1440 resolution => http://www.microcenter.com/product/384780/EQ276W_27_IPS_LED_Monitor that needs dual link DVI for full screen resolution.

Some monitors can be rotated; am using a 1680 x 1050 monitor in a vertical position next to 27" Auria monitor.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Jacob Hantla

Why do I have to pay in order to use Logos 5 when I already have a massive library in Logos 4? I bought the library with the pretence that upgrades to new software would be free. Now I just spent all this money on something that is now outdated and I have to spend more to get the upgrade. This is outrageous.

Logos 4 does everything it always did and your resources will forever be available. You will have access to Logos 5 soon as a free upgrade if you choose not to pay for the resources and datasets that drive some of the key Logos 5 features. Logos has always kept its word that the software is free (but the catch is that many features are resource dependent and resources are not free).

Matthew Troupe

I appreciate your comment here Steven. While I enjoy Logos, Some of the drawbacks are obvious from a financial standpoint. Buying the books from logos online are more expensive than buying paper books- which work just fine. Also, if I have to pay to upgrade to logos 5 that will be the second time I have had to pay to keep using books I already own. I never had to pay an upgrade fee with my paper library. It appears they will make the base available for no charge... If I understand rightly. But I personally don't want to fund planned obsolescence, or anything that smells like it.

Matthew Troupe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426832#Comment_426832

The books on logos are less expensive only if you consider buying hundreds of books you will probably never use. it is nice to have them available, but there is a limit to how many dictionaries a person will use.

Robert Wazlavek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/427039#Comment_427039

But I personally don't want to fund planned obsolescence, or anything that smells like it.

Then you might as well not ever buy any technology or make any effort whatsoever to keep up with the current generation. The reality is that if you like Logos Bible Software and want Logos to continue as a company, you'd might as well support them or else lose Logos Bible Software entirely.

As a side note (not necessarily as a response to your post Matthew), I don't understand why so many people (Christians) are so upset about L5 and the upgrade. Have this many people really not seen this coming? Technology is ever-advancing. And businesses must continue to push forward in an effort to stay in business. If you like Logos Bible Software and find it useful, why complain about supporting Logos through the continued purchase of resources, etc? That makes about as much sense as complaining that a product you use and are appreciative of continues to exist (I love Logos and it has been a huge blessing to me and my ministry, but I sure wish it didn't exist! Ha). All this is totally aside from the fact that L4 still works and no one loses the resources they've bought, and the actual software advancement will be available to upgrade to for free later. Seems like some people just feel entitled and want all the new toys without having to pay for them. (All questions in this paragraph were rhetorical.)

What the saddest thing about all this is how many Christians have hearts which only want to complain. "Do not complain against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door." James 5:9. Maybe more of us need to take this verse to heart (that certainly includes me at times).

/ rant.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/427039#Comment_427039

are more expensive than buying paper books- which work just fine.

Then why did you buy Logos in the first place?

Also, if I have to pay to upgrade to logos 5 that will be the second time I have had to pay to keep using books I already own.

No... you don't have to upgrade to keep reading your current library, you can stay with Logos 4. You don't have to pay anything.

What's that you say... you want the extra/new functionality of Logos 5? Oh... you mean you want the, value added, meta-information the software and datasets provide on top of the books in your library?

But you don't want to pay — anything... so you want something for nothing?

Can you see the problem with your logic? Yeah, yeah I know that Logos (a long time ago) said they would never charge for software (BTW the main thing I have leant in life about saying 'never' is... never to say never) but that was a long time ago — times change.

Anyway what are we wasting electrons over, wait for a while and you can get the engine upgrade for free — case closed.
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What's that you say... you want more than what the free engine upgrade provides? Oh boy.... [;)]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/426690#Comment_426690

Send me one of those new iMacs and I will use it.

If I had one of those new iMacs, my stingy nature would take over. I would keep it for myself. I use a 6-year-old Mac Pro (tower) with dual displays. Then, I have a three year old Mac Book Pro for light duty study.

Logos had taken all my discretionary funds so I cannot afford a new iMac [:'(]

BTW: Has anyone noticed that the OP threw a hand grenade into the forum as his first ever post and then never returned?

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/427130#Comment_427130

BTW: Has anyone noticed that the OP threw a hand grenade into the forum as his first ever post and then never returned?

Oh well, it shook the rafters a bit. Perhaps others were thinking it [:#]