Need Help Sorting out Good Arminian & Calvinist Resources

I'd like to build a reference library that has some balance between good Arminian and good Calvinist resources but am struggling to determine the best way to identify and then select the resources. By "good", I mean resources that would be considered main-stream and well respected by the majority of constituents in each camp. I'd like to start simply by creating some publisher, author, and resource lists.

I'm not in ministry--I'm a lay person without any knowledge of Greek or Hebrew. I started my software library with a very small Libronix package, then upgraded to the L4 Bible Study Library package and have since added a few resources and just did the L5 miminum cross-grade. I would appreciate any help I can get in developing the lists indicated below.

On a side-note, I would also very much like to develop some knowledge of the Greek language, but don't know if there are any good educational resources in that regard. I don't expect to become proficient in Greek via just educational resources, but I don't think I'll have the opportunity to study in a class setting, so educational resources are probably the only option I have.

Arminian & Calvinist Publisher List
I'm thinking various publishers tend to lean one way or the other and would therefore have resources supporting one view or the other. I'm fine with that, but just want to determine in advance which way they lean to help in building a balanced library.

I'm also very interested in resources that do an excellent job of accurately and fully presenting the views of both sides, allowing the reader to come to his/her own conclusions, but I expect these are hard to come by.

Arminian & Calvinist Author's List
I know where a few key authors stand on the subject, but would like to expand this list.

Arminian and Calvinist Resource List
I would like to start with good commentary sets, but am certainly open to small collections and individual titles as well.

Greek Educational Resource List

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Comments

David Kirk Davis

I would suggest for Calvinist resources to check out monergism.com and review the authors they sell then check out what resources are available through Logos.

Just as a short list check out B.B. Warfield, Archibald Alexander, R.C. Sproul, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, John Bunyan, Michael Horton, A.W. Pink, and generally most of the Puritan works. That is a very short list and off the top of my head.

David Kirk Davis

Some of the main Calvinist publishers include Sovereign Grace Christian Books, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, Banner of Truth, Reformation Trust, and Reformation Heritage. Just google them they will come right up and Logos has published many of the books they sell.

David Kirk Davis

William Burt Pope and John Miley are a good start. If you run a Logos resource search for Methodist, Arminian or Wesleyan you will find some great resources that fit the Arminian tradition. Some are currently under development. I will attempt to expand this later tonight if you want me to.

Andy

Just as a short list check out B.B. Warfield, Archibald Alexander, R.C. Sproul, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, John Bunyan, Michael Horton, A.W. Pink, and generally most of the Puritan works. That is a very short list and off the top of my head.

Logos offer a Calvin collection,

http://www.logos.com/product/5170/calvin-500-collection

There are various smaller configurations available at a lower cost (e.g. Calvin's Commentaries, the Institutes, etc.).

Similarly, Logos offer the Works of Arminius,

http://www.logos.com/product/8820/the-works-of-arminius

You may also wish to consider the following two works, presenting and critiquing Calvinism,

http://www.logos.com/product/26686/for-calvinism-and-against-calvinism

Logos also offer works by Michael Horton, Wayne Grudem, Mark Driscoll, John Piper and John MacArthur, all of whom are regarded to be at the forefront of what is sometimes described as 'New Calvinism'. Vyrso also offer works by some of these authors, oftentimes at a reduced price. I just noticed today that Vyrso are currently offering a book by John Piper for $3.99, here,

http://vyrso.com/product/14550/spectacular-sins-and-their-global-purpose-in-the-glory-of-christ

David Kirk Davis

If you want a good introduction this two volume work is excellent by two of the most gifted theologians alive today.

http://www.logos.com/product/26686/for-calvinism-and-against-calvinism

Kendall Sholtess

Hi! For Arminianism I am a huge fan of this dude named Robert E. Picirilli. He has some wonderful resources, my favorite being Grace, Faith, Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation.

Here is the link: http://www.logos.com/product/20493/grace-faith-free-will-contrasting-views-of-salvation

Blows Calvinism right out of the water, in my opinion. No offense intended to my Calvinist brethren!

Picirilli also has written a number of commentaries. Great stuff.

Edwin Bowden

Hi! For Arminianism I am a huge fan of this dude named Robert E. Picirilli. He has some wonderful resources, my favorite being Grace, Faith, Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation.

Here is the link: http://www.logos.com/product/20493/grace-faith-free-will-contrasting-views-of-salvation

Blows Calvinism right out of the water, in my opinion. No offense intended to my Calvinist brethren!

Picirilli also has written a number of commentaries. Great stuff.

Picirilli is excellent. Leroy Forlines is another featured Arminian theologian. Anything from Randall House (Free Will Baptist) is Arminian.

http://www.logos.com/Products/search?Publisher=Randall%20House

Mike Childs

Arminian scholarship would begin with Arminius and John Wesley, of course.

But more modern Arminian scholarship would include John Oswalt, an Old Testament scholar whose commentary on Isaiah in the NICOT is perhaps the best on that book. Oswalt has published a number of excellent books and commentaries. Garett Lee Cockerill is another who just published the new commentary on Hebrews in the NICNT.

Thomas Oden is one of the foremost Arminian / Wesleyan theologians. Tom Oden's "Systematic Theology" (3 Volumes) is a great place to start.

Dr. Ben Witherington of Asbury Theological Seminary is another Arminiam New Testament scholar who is widely published. His Socio-Rhetorical commentary on Acts is highly regarded.

I would also recommend Maxie Dunnam and Dr. Bill Arnold. There are so many more, but these are off the top of my head. Older but still well worthwhile is A. W. Tozer.

There are as many differences among different Arminian groups as among various Calvinist groups. I would keep that in mind.

Rick Ausdahl

I want to thank everyone again--your suggestions are very helpful.

Last year I was working on a hand-written author list, but it disappeared one day after the grandkids had spent the weekend, and unfortunately, I had not memorized the list. I think the paper may have been discovered by one of our four "age five and under" grandchildren, and the back-side used for what I'm sure was a beautiful drawing. [:)]

In the process of identifying authors I have obtained and used a few resources as indicated below.

Arminian

Roger E. Olson--Arminian Theology, Myths and Realities
Roger E. Olson--Against Calvinism
Robert E. Picirilli--Grace Faith Free Will
F. Leroy Forlines--Classical Arminianism
Dr. Norman Geisler--Systematic Theology (currently in vol. 3 of 4 vols.)
Jack Cottrell--Commentary on Romans (just getting started)

Calvinist

Michael S. Horton--For Calvinism
R.C. Sproul--Chosen by God
Wayne Grudem--Systematic Theology
In addition to the above Calvinist authors, I went through "The Theology Program" at Bible.org. Definitely Calvinistic in persuasion but presents both sides.

Resources that Attempt to be Neutral or Present Both Sides

Roger E. Olson--The Mosaic of Christian Belief
Gregory A. boyd & Paul R. Eddy--Across the Spectrum

Where Next?
Eventually, I plan to read some of the original writings of Arminius and Calvin. But in the meantime, I would really like to get two excellent commentary sets on the entire Bible--one based on Arminian theology and one based on Calvinistic theology. I would like them to be scholarly (but not too technical), and provide well reasoned versus emotional arguements when dealing with passages held by one camp or the other. And I would be extremely happy if they would seriously, sincerely, and respectfully address arguements from the other camp. Finally, my preference for these two initial commentary sets would be that they were written within the last 20-40 years, and preferably use the NIV or the ESV, although the KJV is acceptable.

Am I wishing for the moon? [S]

Lonnie Spencer

College Press has a complete commentary set based on the NIV that I would consider Armenian. It was published within the past 15 years. Jack Cottrell's commentary on Romans is part of this set.

Rick Ausdahl

Thanks, Lonnie! That is one I've had my eye on and I'm familiar with a couple of the contributors, but I'm a stranger to most of them. And unfortunately, that's the case with most of the commentary sets I look at. That's what has made it hard for me to settle on just a couple of commentary sets.

I guess that for some people who've had formal training, are in full-time ministry, who have many scholarly commentary sets and a social network of informed colleagues to draw on, it might be a little hard to relate to a layman who does not have such a network and who cannot afford (financially or timewise) to build such a comprehensive library. For me, based on cost and time, I'll probably be able to have only two good commentary sets in my library, so hope to make decisions I don't regret.

Rick Ausdahl

Arminian scholarship would begin with Arminius and John Wesley, of course.

But more modern Arminian scholarship would include John Oswalt, an Old Testament scholar whose commentary on Isaiah in the NICOT is perhaps the best on that book. Oswalt has published a number of excellent books and commentaries. Garett Lee Cockerill is another who just published the new commentary on Hebrews in the NICNT.

Michael, Thanks for contributing. I have a couple of questions regarding the NIC commentary set.

I'm not familiar with Oswalt or Cockerill, but understand from your comments that you see them as being in the Arminian Camp. But when I looked at the author for Romans for the NIC, I see Douglas J. Moo. I haven't read any of his works yet, but was under the impression he's in the Calvinist camp. Do you know if that's correct? If so, would I be correct in thinking the NIC is neutral on the Arminian/Calvinist question, with contributors from both persuasions? If I'm at all on target here, then I guess I would need to know which contributors are of which persuasion as an aid to helping me determine how balanced the set as a whole would be. That's been one of the big difficulties for me and is why I was hoping there were two publishers (one Arminian leaning and one Calvinist leaning) that are well respected and would each have a commentary set where every contributor was of the Arminian persuasion or every contributor was of the Calvinist persuasion. This would be the easiest way for me to determine which perspective I could expect on controversial passages when accessing the commentaries.
I checked a few titles in the commentary set to see if they could be purchased individually, but didn't find them listed separately at Logos. Do you know if the commentary has to be purchased as one of the sets listed at Logos (i.e. entire OT, entire NT, or entire OT/NT together)?

Andy

But when I looked at the author for Romans for the NIC, I see Douglas J. Moo. I haven't read any of his works yet, but was under the impression he's in the Calvinist camp. Do you know if that's correct?

It would be correct to say the Moo is Reformed.

If so, would I be correct in thinking the NIC is neutral on the Arminian/Calvinist question, with contributors from both persuasions?

This would be accurate. My perception, on balance, is that the series perhaps tends towards the Reformed camp (particularly in respect of the NT). I am happy to be challenged on this by the more knowledgeable reader.

If I'm at all on target here, then I guess I would need to know which contributors are of which persuasion as an aid to helping me determine how balanced the set as a whole would be. That's been one of the big difficulties for me and is why I was hoping there were two publishers (one Arminian leaning and one Calvinist leaning) that are well respected and would each have a commentary set where every contributor was of the Arminian persuasion or every contributor was of the Calvinist persuasion. This would be the easiest way for me to determine which perspective I could expect on controversial passages when accessing the commentaries.

I am not able to respond on this in detail as I am not familiar with every author or every volume. What I would say, as an observation, is that most scholarly commentary series will incorporate commentators from both perspectives (and everything in between).

If you are interested in commentary sets differentiated by position, you may be best going for an author specific series. For example, the MacArthur collection includes a number of pastoral commentaries (intended, I guess, for a lay reader). This series would accurately represent the Reformed position. It is also worth keeping in mind that Logos do offer the Calvin commentary series which, obviously, is representative of Calvinism [:D].

The Socio-Rhetorical Commentary series is largely authored by Ben Witherington III. Given the focus of the commentary, I am not sure it would read as an Arminian commentary, as such. The set does, however, provide a consistency of approach (it is also roundly excellent). Someone else may well be able to recommend a commentary set which more accurately represents the Arminian position. [Edit: I note that Lonnie, above, has recommended such a series.]

I checked a few titles in the commentary set to see if they could be purchased individually, but didn't find them listed separately at Logos. Do you know if the commentary has to be purchased as one of the sets listed at Logos (i.e. entire OT, entire NT, or entire OT/NT together)?

Logos do not currently offer the NICOT/NT individually. NICOT/NT can be purchased as a series or as a OT or NT set.

Rick Ausdahl

Andy, thanks for jumping in. I don't know how many people will even be on the forum today, but in an unusual change of events this year, we're going somewhere for Thanksgiving dinner rather than people coming to our place, so it's kind of like an extra day off. [:)]

Just to clarify, I would be open to commentary sets that provide both Arminian and Calvinistic arguements/interpretations, but would like to see both points of view in all passages that are used by one camp or the other when it comes to this issue. That's not likely to happen if all the commentary for a particular book in the Bible is from just one persuasion or the other.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

On a side-note, I would also very much like to develop some knowledge of the Greek language, but don't know if there are any good educational resources in that regard. I don't expect to become proficient in Greek via just educational resources, but I don't think I'll have the opportunity to study in a class setting, so educational resources are probably the only option I have.

Thread => The HOW and WHY of Verbal Intensity? includes a screen shot of visual filter highlighting in Greek and English resources. The Greek verbal system is more expressive than English. Thankful can highlight Greek verbal expression in English resources with morphological tagging.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Mike Childs

Arminian scholarship would begin with Arminius and John Wesley, of course.

But more modern Arminian scholarship would include John Oswalt, an Old Testament scholar whose commentary on Isaiah in the NICOT is perhaps the best on that book. Oswalt has published a number of excellent books and commentaries. Garett Lee Cockerill is another who just published the new commentary on Hebrews in the NICNT.

Michael, Thanks for contributing. I have a couple of questions regarding the NIC commentary set.

I'm not familiar with Oswalt or Cockerill, but understand from your comments that you see them as being in the Arminian Camp. But when I looked at the author for Romans for the NIC, I see Douglas J. Moo. I haven't read any of his works yet, but was under the impression he's in the Calvinist camp. Do you know if that's correct? If so, would I be correct in thinking the NIC is neutral on the Arminian/Calvinist question, with contributors from both persuasions? If I'm at all on target here, then I guess I would need to know which contributors are of which persuasion as an aid to helping me determine how balanced the set as a whole would be. That's been one of the big difficulties for me and is why I was hoping there were two publishers (one Arminian leaning and one Calvinist leaning) that are well respected and would each have a commentary set where every contributor was of the Arminian persuasion or every contributor was of the Calvinist persuasion. This would be the easiest way for me to determine which perspective I could expect on controversial passages when accessing the commentaries.

I checked a few titles in the commentary set to see if they could be purchased individually, but didn't find them listed separately at Logos. Do you know if the commentary has to be purchased as one of the sets listed at Logos (i.e. entire OT, entire NT, or entire OT/NT together)?

. There is no doubt that John Oswalt and Cockerill are Arninian and Wesleyan to the core. Oswalt taught at Asbury Theological Seminary and Cockerill teaches at Wesley Biblical in Jackson. All the scholars I named are evangelical and conservative Biblically in addition to being Wesleyan - Arminian. I studied under Oswalt.

One of the points I was trying to make is that nearly all good commentary sets have both Arminian and Reformed scholars among their authors. Oswalt is an author in the Logos sponsored EEC commentaries,the NIV Application Commentary, and the Cornerstone Commentary to name a few. Bill Arnold is in the NIV Application Commentary and the Intervarsity Press Dictionaries, and others.

Good commentary sets are balanced theologically. They are written by scholars who deal as honestly as possible with the text, rather than try to push a particular theological agenda. This is true of the NICOT and NICNT, and most credible commentary sets. In addition to the commentary sets mentioned, Word Biblical Commentary and the IVP New Testament Commentaries have Arminian - Wesleyan writers. if a set is from one perspective - Reformed or Arminian - it will usually make that clear, like the Wesleyan Bible Commentary set. (No Calvinists there.) Otherwise, I would expect it to be balanced.

Rick Ausdahl

Thanks, Michael. I've added Oswalt and Cockerill to my Arminian author list and Moo to my Calvinist list.

I took a look at the NIC and EEC sets. The prices on these higher-end commentary sets leave a bit of a sticker shock for the unprepared. I expect the difference in price is mirrored by a comparable difference in content (quantity & quality), but price-wise, the higher end sets are probably a stretch in terms of what I could justify as a layman to the Mrs., even as sweet and understanding as she is. I think what I'll have to try to figure out is which sets might be considered "Best in Class" for: 1) A balanced perspective, 2) An Arminian perspective, and 3) A Calvinist perspective, at a couple of price-points as indicated below (taking into account of course, some of the suggestions already made).

$250 - $500
$500 - $750
$750 - $900

John

Eventually, I plan to read some of the original writings of Arminius and Calvin. ...

Finally, my preference for these two initial commentary sets would be that they were written within the last 20-40 years, and preferably use the NIV or the ESV, although the KJV is acceptable.

I see that you already have Norman Geisler in your "Arminian" list. That is interesting because he calls himself a Calvinist ... But nonetheless, Geislers works are very good. He is called Arminian by many Calvinists today, but in light of history you will find that his more moderate view is really what early Calvinists held. Chosen but free is recommended if you havent already read it. Geislers writings are all best in class in my opinion.

Looks like you have a couple of anti-calvinist titles there already ... if you want the best of those dont overlook Laurence Vance (the other side of calvinism).

As far as commentaries go, I have not found any more exhaustive than that of John Calvin himself. What I found suprising is that Calvin in his commentaries does not support everything that more extreme Calvinists might suggest today. For example, in Romans 9, Calvin says that God did not hate the individual Esau. More extreme authors such as James White in Potters freedom disagree.

If you want to understand Calvinism, also do not overlook church history. Phil Schaffs church history in my opinion is the best and easiest to read. And although being reformed himself, is quite willing to tell it like it is. Any study of Calvinism should include Schaff on this time period. The perspective you gain here will help shed light on the doctrinal debate.

Calvinism gets a bad name from some of its more extreme advocates. If you understand that early on it will help you find the middle ground easier. And the truth is in the middle ground. Calvinism vs Arminianism is as much a false dichotomy as a theological debate. Both views contain some degree of truth, but neither is "the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

Rick Ausdahl

John, thanks so much for your thoughts and recommendations!

I found your comment about Geisler's position interesting, because I have to admit I found it difficult to place him. Based on some of the things he has said, I'd think he's in the Calvinist camp, but other things made me think he must be in the Arminian camp. In the end, I placed him in my Arminian list because to me it seemed his works leaned more that direction than the other. Regarding the other authors and works you mentioned, I'll definitely look into them.

I have considered purchasing a set of Calvin's commentaries as I do believe it's far too easy to be led astary regarding the position of either Arminius or Calvin if I haven't read their works myself. Right now I have two Bible software programs on my computer--Logos 5 and Wordsearch 10. I noticed that the Logos version of the Calvin Commentaries is $150 while the Wordsearch version is only $25. I realize the Logos version is probably much better feature-wise, but for someone on a light budget who would like to simply "read" some of the writings of Arminius and Calvin, the Wordsearch version might be a great place to start considering the price difference--provided of course it does in fact include all the volumes found in the Logos version.

In regard to your closing paragraph, I've greatly appreciated things I've read from both camps. And while I won't say where I stand in my own conviction at this point (I have no desire for this to be an Arminianism vs. Calvinism thread), I will say I've been challenged by both positions, I've learned from authors of both persuasions, and in the end, I don't feel either persuasion has adequately answered all the questions put to it by the other. Fortunately for us all, our salvation is not determined by where we come down on this issue.

Doc B

I'm also very interested in resources that do an excellent job of accurately and fully presenting the views of both sides, allowing the reader to come to his/her own conclusions, but I expect these are hard to come by.

Your expectation will be met.

It is very difficult to find single resources that accurately present the view of both sides, primarily because most Arminians view any form of Calvinism as hyper-Calvinism, and most Calvinists view any form of Arminianism as Pelagianism.

I am not one who has read extensively across these two theological spectrums, but I've read enough to know a few basics that will help. Here's what I know that I know-

1. R.C. Sproul (reformed) will treat the Arminian perspective fairly. (He also treats the Roman Catholic perspective as fairly as any protestant I've ever read, FWIW.)

2. Roger Olsen has the best handle on his own theology of any modern Arminian theologian out there. He also tends to treat the Calvinist perspective in a fair manner.

3. There is a wide disparity of sub-beliefs in both Calvinist and Arminian theological camps. You can't simply speak of 'Calvinism' or 'Arminianism' and be right, most of the time. Look at the differences in reformed theology between (say) R. Scott Clarke and Albert Mohler, or Michael Horton and Wayne Grudem, for example. Or the differences between Arminian theology between (say) Norm Geisler and Paige Patterson.

4. Almost all the proponents of a middle ground (i.e. mohlinism) will fall one way or the other when pressed, especially when pressed with logic in their arguments.

5. Most people with a reformed perspective don't like the term 'Calvinist'. Most people with an Arminian perspective don't like to be called 'Arminians'. Perhaps this is because both terms have been used in pejorative ways so often in the past. I don't know why, but empirically, I know it is true.

6. The best place to see the conflict between the two schools, at its worst, is in the Southern Baptist Convention.

7. The best place to find compatible resources is to search the websites of para-church ministries associated with some of the bigger names in each camp.

8. Some publishers are dedicated to one school of thought: most of these have been listed here by others. Many of the bigger publishers will publish works that fit within either school.

9. There is (almost) nothing new under the sun; most of the areas of debate have been well covered in the past; much of it 300 years ago or more. Don't neglect these older works. We aren't as smart or clever today as we give ourselves credit.

10. Logos has published a large volume of material in both camps, and Logos is NOT biased toward either side. There are some who claim they are; you can find the threads elsewhere in the forums. But for anyone with a slightly-open mind, it is easily seen that Logos publishes in both camps.

HTH.

Edwin Bowden

Good summary, Doc.

On the Arminian side, many are Wesleyan and use that title, rather than Arminian.

The Picirilli and Forlines titles listed earlier are from what is called Classical or Reformed Arminian viewpoint.

About 40 yrs ago, a minister (who I only met once) from a very different denomination, made this observation. We all have the same dough, but we use different cookie cutters.

I don't think any of us fully comprehend theology. It is far beyond our complete understanding. We each attempt to fit what we can understand into a structure that makes sense to us, even though there are always holes remaining in our understanding.

We have far more in common than the differences we have.

In heaven, we won't have to worry about which view is correct.

Rick Ausdahl

Doc and Edwin,

I very much appreciate these last two posts. As I noted early on, I'm just a layperson who a few years back decided I wanted a better understanding of how we came about having the canon in our Bibles. I also had a desire to develop a better systematic theological understanding of scripture and doctrine and started doing a little research on the web. Early on, I stumbled across a web site called Bible.org and discovered a free online Theology program available there. I very much appreciated the approach they took in that class series.

One of the tenets they held in the program had to do with the purpose/reason for doing theology, and it spoke to my heart immediately--i.e. faith seeking understanding. That described me perfectly--that was the only reason I wanted to develop a solid theology.

I can't help but chuckle now when I think back on it, but when I started my quest a few years ago, I didn't even realize there were two camps regarding salvation. At first I was baffled at how two such opposing views could even exist within the Christian community. The closest I had ever come to hearing about this debate, was in regard to the question of eternal security--but even then, I had no clue that issue was only one of many debates within the much larger arena of Arminianism vs. Calvinism.

And my goal hasn't changed-- it's still faith seeking understanding. I have absolutely no desire to argue. No desire to convince anyone in regard to my position. If I question or challenge a view in either camp, it's because I want to understand both views as well as I can, and the best way I can do that is to give people a chance to tell me why they believe what they do.

But while I feel it's important personally for me to do my best to be a good steward of the Word and to understand it correctly, I realize that in the end, there may be some things that I still get wrong. So I'll do my best, knowing that others are doing the same--all the while believing (and thankful) that our salvation is not based on getting every doctrine right. [:)]

Edwin Bowden

But while I feel it's important personally for me to do my best to be a good steward of the Word and to understand it correctly, I realize that in the end, there may be some things that I still get wrong. So I'll do my best, knowing that others are doing the same--all the while believing (and thankful) that our salvation is not based on getting every doctrine right.

It sounds like you are on the right track.

I have been on both sides of the divide. It's important to avoid the extreme on either side. Most "moderates" can find that they have much more in common.

I have come to the conclusion that God has made extremely clear the most important things for us to know. He does not delight in playing hide and seek. Many of the issues that divide us or unimportant in the whole scheme of things.

I still enjoy the challenge of diligent Bible study to make sure that I am rightly dividing the Word as best I can. I realize that if I live out the things that I do find clear in Scripture, I am less worried about the things I don't understand.

Personally, I do not worry about a person's views on Calvinism/Arminianism. I can find great value if they are commited to faithfully exegeting the Word.

Evan Boardman

Arminian and Calvinist Resource List
I would like to start with good commentary sets, but am certainly open to small collections and individual titles as well.

Next to Calvin, for an exhaustive Calvinist commentary set, would be John Gill.

http://www.logos.com/product/8514/the-works-of-john-gill

Gunk

This was such a great thread to discover resources on this subject. It has been very helpful to me. Thanks to all who contributed.