Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond
Comments
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Obviously since you can't attribute the data, your analyses are destined for (technical) naivete ... else Tom's correct.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Samuel Clough said:
Please give us a way to opt-out of all community features in the product.
[Y] I agree. I don't want to have to do this individually for every resource.
Samuel Clough said:I'm not entirely clear why you anticipate it being nearly impossible to use Logos in the future without the internet.
I would be very concerned if Logos went this way. There are many situations in my life where I either don't have Internet access or it is slow/unreliable. I definitely still need to use all of the search capabilities of Logos in such situations. It is bad enough that the mobile app is so restricted without Internet access. But I definitely need the full power of Logos desktop when I am in situations where I cannot count on the Internet. Not everyone has reliable high speed data access all of the time.
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Dear Bob: Thank you so very much for providing more information and, real life examples of how the data mining works, examples of whats done with the info etc.
I did not realize the sensitivity of this subject when I asked for more examples, it is indeed a complex subject. Again, thank you for being so informative.
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Opinions.
I do realize that much of my life is data mined each day. The way I drive, where I drive, how I drive during different times of the day is another good example. I have known for a long time that there is no such thing as "Private" computer usage if said computer is connected to the internet. To use the internet requires computers talking to one another, so there you go, right from the start, information IS exchanged and, that very first, very simple exchange, has a lot of information in it.
We are "Data Mined" in everything we do, from walking the streets, to driving, to purchasing, to working, medical, eating, sleeping, gas, water, electrical, garbage, television, clothing trends, literally everything and, alas, it did not start with the Internet.
A census is data mining, going to Church,( from the beginning, had data mining), building a bridge requires data mining etc, etc.
We all data mine throughout our day if we think about it. Going to lunch with friends, someone is going to ask : " How many people will we need tables for", thus we just asked for data so we could make a decision.
Data mining is nothing new, been done in sales long before we had computers, before they were thought of .
Yet it is a concern now because we can , and do, save such an incredible amount of our personal lives on the little powerful devices.
I think many people have a hard time thinking about "data" in so many different ways and, tend to think : If they have my data, they have everything, all my data.
I think it's hard for people to think of any data coming "off" their computer as "non-personal" data.
Personally, I do not care if Logos gets all my keystrokes, preferences, books most often used, those used occasionally, those never used, what highlights are used, what searches are performed, what visual filters stay constant, which are not used, what layouts I use, create, never use, so forth and so.
Does not bother me a bit because , as I understand it, Logos is not concerned about MY usage, but instead , Logos is concerned with how LOGOS is being used. Therefore, (as far as data is concerned) it's not "me" the mining is about, but how the program is being used by xyz number of "users". If I understand correctly, its about "usage" .
Thus "who" the data is coming from means nothing to Logos Data mining, "what" is being done with Logos Software is the part that is important. "What is being done, and, What is not being done" as far as usage of the product is the "data" Logos needs in order to make a better product and, that does affect, "me".
Therefore, I do not mind the data mining as long as:
It is not clogging my internet connection.
The Data mining is limited to my "usage" of said product.
Logos cannot be used ( no one can guarantee this ) as an entry point to hack my computer.
The data is not referenced to my account and sold to others that will e-mail/call me to sell other products.
Looking at the responses though, indicates to me that there needs to be a setting for " Updates and Upgrades only" while internet is connected.
As to the cloud: I can certainly see a lot of opportunities here. A cloud based library that could be accessed by membership ( like a net flicks ) could allow us access to many resources we would not nessesarily want to own, but just need to look at when doing research. This would be a wonderful option I would think , especially if one could "rent" access by the year, or the month, or week etc.
Imagine the whole of Logos resources is a searchable data base that we could access, when needed, but not taking up space when not needed. Imagine being able to "check out" a resource or set of resources that would "drop in" to our software and tool system to be fully used while we needed it, then being able to "check it back in" when we were done with it. This would be perfect for things like the Perseus collection as well as many, many other books and collections.
Don't need or want to spend money and use up space on your computer for the Dead Sea Scrolls , some 17th century commentaries, 18th century lexicons , but then need them for a particular study/project- just check in to the Logos online library, check out what you need, it fully functions within our software. When done, just "check it back in" .
At any rate, I agree that things are going to be more and more cloud based in the future.
Again, people need options.
I appreciate Bob's open and honest information and that they are "Listening" to try and find ways to meet everyones needs and sensitivities.
Blessings all and, sorry this was soooo long.
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Dear Harry: If I may be so bold: I agree with your reaction as far as things stand right now, However, I "think" Bob is speaking of the future and of getting there " a bit at a time ". ( Not to put words in his mouth).
Here's the thing: We don't even think about electricity anymore, unless it's off- does not work.
We don't talk about it ( other than cost -smile ) at the water cooler, we don't e-mail about, we don't write letters about it, we simply do not even think about it unless there is suddenly an absence of it.
We come home at night, open the door, reach for the switch and expect the lights to come on. We don't reach for the switch hoping it will come on, we just do it, it's automatic.
We are conditioned to it being there, it's just part of life. We don't think about breathing, until some affects our breathing that changes it, same with electricity.
The internet is a baby compared to electricity and, like electricity of old, it is growing up.
It is an "immature" product/service and will not reach maturity until it gets to the point we no longer "think about it" unless something changes/fail's.
There is a day coming when everything will be so connected that the "Cloud" will simply be like electricity, or running water.
We won't be thinking about "is it on my computer or in the cloud" , we will not think about logging in and finding information, we will just ask for the information ( keyboard, finger swipe, speak - whatever) and it will be there, we will be startled when it's not.
Our refrigerator will defrost our food during the day so it's ready to be cooked, simply because we set up a menu, our oven will be pre-heated when we get home, Tv will come on when we walk in room with our shows already cued, lighting will automatically change color according to who is using the room, temps will adjust, water temps in shower will adjust for person and time of year ext, etc, etc and we won't even think about the internet, yet, thats where all things things will interface, talk to each other, about our whole day/week/month.
Logos and every other company making software will have to adjust and keep up with these changes and how the internet/cloud and people are interfacing.
Like you, I am often where I do not have a connection and need everything local to my device, yet, it will not be very many years before this is not the case. IMHO.
Blessings.
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Personally, I do not care if Logos gets all my keystrokes, preferences, books most often used, those used occasionally, those never used, what highlights are used, what searches are performed, what visual filters stay constant, which are not used, what layouts I use, create, never use, so forth and so.
Does not bother me a bit because , as I understand it, Logos is not concerned about MY usage, but instead , Logos is concerned with how LOGOS is being used. Therefore, (as far as data is concerned) it's not "me" the mining is about, but how the program is being used by xyz number of "users". If I understand correctly, its about "usage" .
Thus "who" the data is coming from means nothing to Logos Data mining, "what" is being done with Logos Software is the part that is important. "What is being done, and, What is not being done" as far as usage of the product is the "data" Logos needs in order to make a better product and, that does affect, "me".
You summarized my thoughts. I have my feedback set to anonymous.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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tom said:
Therefore, the SQL where statement that selected the records would have to include something like, "...AND USER_PREF = 1 AND NOTES.USERID = USER.ID".
Yes, this does add complexity, but it adds very little complexity IMHO.
Or, it could be that they are not even using a relational DB for this stuff. They could be using NoSQL or a hybrid or something else. Does Bob manage his Couch with a Futon, perhaps? [8-|]
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Graham Owen said:
I can turn off one of the items using a specific command, I can not currently disable the community ratings or tags and I can not disable any future options that may be introduced...
Bob covered this in his initial post:
Bob Pritchett said:We will be implementing a way to turn [community tags and ratings] off if you don't want to see this community info.
Community tags and ratings cannot be disabled right now, but we have listened to customer feedback and will implement a setting to turn them off in 5.0b. (As with any discussion of future product releases, it's possible that an unforeseen problem could push this feature out beyond 5.0b; however, as of the time of writing, it is planned for the 5.0b release.)0 -
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Graham Owen said:
I can turn off one of the items using a specific command, I can not currently disable the community ratings or tags and I can not disable any future options that may be introduced...
Bob covered this in his initial post:
Bob Pritchett said:We will be implementing a way to turn [community tags and ratings] off if you don't want to see this community info.
Community tags and ratings cannot be disabled right now, but we have listened to customer feedback and will implement a setting to turn them off in 5.0b. (As with any discussion of future product releases, it's possible that an unforeseen problem could push this feature out beyond 5.0b; however, as of the time of writing, it is planned for the 5.0b release.)Thanks Bradley
I appreciate the fact that you are all working to fix these 'issues' the message you responded to was in response to a message that said I could already do disable them.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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I think most posters on this thread are talking about philosophical or "in principle" objections, while Bob is talking about reality and specific uses of data-mining or tracking of Logos application' use. I used to be in the first camp, but when I looked at what Bob was saying, I have no objection to them improving the software for the million+ users they have:
Bob Pritchett said:These stats have led to actual improvements in our business and software
the software did improve, did it not?
Bob Pritchett said:We tracked what percentage of users were on what operating system. This helped us know when we could drop support for old versions of Windows or Mac OS X, affecting few users and allowing us to allocate resources to new work instead of old OS support.
There is absolutely no skin off my nose for LOGOS to know that I run Windows 7. I am glad that they drop support of legacy OS in order to innovate AND to make the software run better.
Bob Pritchett said:We tracked what percentage of users running
the software each day had upgraded to a new version. It's useful to know
when 80% of daily users are running Logos 5 -- we can stop promoting
the upgrade so heavily. :-)I am so glad they are doing it! It was such a pain to upgrade, or buy a resource they were "heavily" (HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT) promoting and continue to be nagged about it for weeks to come. Well done.
Bob Pritchett said:We tracked search queries. This is such a massive amount of info that the last time we decided to do some serious analysis on search queries we limited it to a single month. We sorted queries by frequency and looked to see how many used boolean operators, could not be parsed by the query engine, etc. We even just browsed them. (The document was a list of queries with counts -- no user identities.) From looking at a large aggregation of search queries we learned that boolean operators aren't used much, and were more likely to mess up a query than be used correctly. This led to the use of all-caps AND and OR as operators, reducing the chance that users would unintentionally include an "and" or "or" that messed up a query that was a phrase. We also saw people were searching for the names of holidays, like "Mothers' Day", which fed into our decision to develop the Preaching Themes database, which is used to tag resources -- and includes Mothers' Day and other holidays as themes.
what exactly are you opposed to from the privacy standpoint in the SPECIFIC tracking examples referenced by Bob? As a missionary, how am I in danger if LOGOS data-mines my usage in this way? I agree with Bob - most of the arguments on this thread are philosophical, not practical.
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toughski said:
I think most posters on this thread are talking about philosophical or "in principle" objections, while Bob is talking about reality and specific uses of data-mining or tracking of Logos application' use.
Not sure I can speak for all of the other pastors here but my issue is not with the collection or analysis of the data but with the way that it is displayed in the program. Whilst I can see how some users will benefit from knowing who is interested in what and in how other users rate resources these features simply don't help me. I still maintain that we need to keep the two issues separate, collection and analysis versus display options
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God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Bob Pritchett said:Patrick S. said:
Bob thank you for all your replies and efforts, I am impressed that you and the Logos team 'suffer all the little ones (Logos users) to come to you'.
You know I could get on my (techo) soapbox and write a long post countering you on various technical & privacy points — but I don't want to. Like the empty quotes above, after a while it becomes hollow words.
I would rather, given that we are talking about a Christian company, providing Christian content to Christian consumers, remind all of us what it is we are dealing with here. We're not talking about Google/Tivo/Facebook/Amazon/a Samsung fridge, or any other entity under the power of the ruler of this age, we're talking about the words of our God.
What is the purpose of Logos Bible Software and how should Logos be acting and what should be guiding them? Should Logos (I am sure they're not) be like Amazon remotely deleting a user books they had paid full price for (when did books move from being owned to not really owned?). Or like copyright holders of movies who 'licence', not sell, movies but who, when movies come out on new platforms (DVD to Blu-Ray), will charge you full price to 'own' the movie all over again on the new platform. Or like Google or Facebook snooping on you to get as much juicy information on you as possible to make you a more valuable commodity to them to sell to advertisers. These ones love to rule it over us, but I hope that Logos tries to follow the spirit of Matthew 20:25-28.
What is the purpose Logos Bible Software? Is it not to help Christians understand God's word and to help equip them, and, as God leads, to help spread His word? Our discussion should be focused on how to achieve that goal.
I have a niece who works for United Bible Societies, below is a picture (not of my niece [:)] I might feel old sometimes but I'm not that old [;)]) of Hanna, here is the story of how she got her first Bible in her own language...
http://translationstories.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/hannahs-hope/
my niece was there to see it.
I don't believe there is anything more to say...
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Patrick S. said:Bob Pritchett said:Patrick S. said:
Bob thank you for all your replies and efforts, I am impressed that you and the Logos team 'suffer all the little ones (Logos users) to come to you'.
You know I could get on my (techo) soapbox and write a long post countering you on various technical & privacy points — but I don't want to. Like the empty quotes above, after a while it becomes hollow words.
I would rather, given that we are talking about a Christian company, providing Christian content to Christian consumers, remind all of us what it is we are dealing with here. We're not talking about Google/Tivo/Facebook/Amazon/a Samsung fridge, or any other entity under the power of the ruler of this age, we're talking about the words of our God.
What is the purpose of Logos Bible Software and how should Logos be acting and what should be guiding them? Should Logos (I am sure they're not) be like Amazon remotely deleting a user books they had paid full price for (when did books move from being owned to not really owned?). Or like copyright holders of movies who 'licence', not sell, movies but who, when movies come out on new platforms (DVD to Blu-Ray), will charge you full price to 'own' the movie all over again on the new platform. Or like Google or Facebook snooping on you to get as much juicy information on you as possible to make you a more valuable commodity to them to sell to advertisers. These ones love to rule it over us, but I hope that Logos tries to follow the spirit of Matthew 20:25-28.
What is the purpose Logos Bible Software? Is it not to help Christians understand God's word and to help equip them, and, as God leads, to help spread His word? Our discussion should be focused on how to achieve that goal.
I have a niece who works for United Bible Societies, below is a picture (not of my niece
I might feel old sometimes but I'm not that old 
) of Hanna, here is the story of how she got her first Bible in her own language...http://translationstories.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/hannahs-hope/
my niece was there to see it.
I don't believe there is anything more to say...
[Y]
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Rene Atchley said:Dominick Sela said:Rene Atchley said:
I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.
I hope you don't use ANY search engine on the Internet - they grab a lot more data about what you are doing than Logos does! Or I hope you don't use any Microsoft products....or Adobe....or browser...or any of a number of other "non community" products. People think only Facebook, Twitter, Flickr and the like are grabbing data, but that's grossly inaccurate. Oh and don't forget your TV viewing preferences, unless you only do over the air (and they collect data too, just not as much), DirecTV, Comcast, and all the other satellite/cable providers are collecting huge amounts of preference/usage data.
The only way to avoid this, as Bob says, is turn off the Internet. It's a connected world now.
Honestly to argue that because everyone else does it justifies Logos doing it (especially as a "Christian" company) seems rather a weak argument to me.
Not to belabor the point Rene, but I think you missed the point. I was trying to explain if people are getting all worked up about the Internet/data/mining issues that Bob is explaining that relate to Logos, what about the other two dozen programs on their computers that are doing the exact same thing, or worse. No complaints there, because people usually don't know it's going on; those companies have not been as open and forthright on their policies and proposed policies as Bob. Bob said it better than I, if this is really an issue, you likely need to get off the computer entirely and disconnect completely from the Internet.
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toughski said:
I think most posters on this thread are talking about philosophical or "in principle" objections, while Bob is talking about reality and specific uses of data-mining or tracking of Logos application' use.
There is anything wrong with philosophical or objections on principle. The large scale data mining currently being done has never before been done in history so we do not even know the full repercussions of it yet. It's not unreasonable to not want to be endlessly tracked. Desktop applications that track every keystroke is not the "new normal" - at least not yet and hopefully never. There's not a single desktop program on my computer that I expect to be logging everything I do without a way to disable it. We used to call things like that malware [:D] and I'll remove any apps that behave that way and find alternatives.
There are some things, such as buying resources, where "tracking" would be expected because I'm willingly giving Logos information. When I buy a book at a bookstore, the bookstore knows what book was purchased and has to buy a new one. That's expected. A book that phones home and tells the publisher how long it took me to read it, what shelf I put it on,and what chapters I skipped is an invasion of privacy. If customer wants their live profiled, that's their opinion but there will be many of us who do not want to be.
I understand Logos sees benefit from feedback, but feedback should remain optional. That's not unreasonable. yes, it's in principle, but it's also in fact. Some of us don't want our entire lives tracked. Yes, we have to make tradeoffs with what websites we visit and how we visit them, but that doesn't mean we should have to submit to tracking to use an application. I personally would just replace an application with another or do without it at that point.
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Dominick Sela said:
Not to belabor the point Rene, but I think you missed the point. I was trying to explain if people are getting all worked up about the Internet/data/mining issues that Bob is explaining that relate to Logos, what about the other two dozen programs on their computers that are doing the exact same thing, or worse. No complaints there, because people usually don't know it's going on; those companies have not been as open and forthright on their policies and proposed policies as Bob. Bob said it better than I, if this is really an issue, you likely need to get off the computer entirely and disconnect completely from the Internet.
Not to belabor the point more [:D], but I don't agree that every program on our computers is tracking us (websites excluded) or that we should get off the computer if we don't want every program tracking us. It's not unreasonable that computer use now and in the future will have the option to not be tracked using desktop applications and a lot of us don't agree that every desktop application is or should be doing this. Our vision of the future is not the same and that's why Logos should simply provide simple options for those of us with differing views of the future. Perhaps the setting could be named "1984" [:D]
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Dominick Sela said:
Not to belabor the point Rene, but I think you missed the point. I was trying to explain if people are getting all worked up about the Internet/data/mining issues that Bob is explaining that relate to Logos, what about the other two dozen programs on their computers that are doing the exact same thing, or worse. No complaints there, because people usually don't know it's going on; those companies have not been as open and forthright on their policies and proposed policies as Bob. Bob said it better than I, if this is really an issue, you likely need to get off the computer entirely and disconnect completely from the Internet.
So again we can turn to a type of "blaming the victim" for having concerns about corporate practices that in other arenas of life would typically get us excited. For instance a local community has cameras that catch speeders going 1 mile an hour over the speed limit and sends a very expensive ticket to the owner of the car...talk about the world seeking justice. Mr. Pritchett has been clear about the general direction and philosophy of the Logos brand in the coming years. The general response to concerns has been (imo) since Logos 3 has been "get use to it" which has been supported by a monopoly position in the market. To admire a company for their...well bravery I suppose..for notifying their customers that they have no choice in this matter especially since everyone is doing it seems to be a bit of tone deaf in my view. Making threats about what I will do or not do seems just as useless as protesting the inevitable march of progress being told to us by Logos. If you find comfort in turning over your hard drive to corporate America then feel free to do so...I just feel a bit nauseous thinking of all the good things that happen when we trust corporations.
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Rene Atchley said:
Mr. Pritchard has been clear about the general direction and philosophy of the Logos brand in the coming years.
Are you ever going to get his name right, or are you just doing this in a passive-aggressive manner to tweak Bob? His name is "Bob Pritchett."
Donnie
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The concept is ultimately flawed. It is clear to me that there are Logos users with substantially different theology than myself. It is inconceivable to me that I can collaborate with such persons in my personal study of the Word, especially when it is likely that some viewpoints held by certain others I consider heresy. It is for these reasons why I carefully choose the resources I purchase, or in the case of base packages, choose what resources not to consult. That believers should be one is clearly taught in Scriptures, and even prayed for by the Lord Himself, and this effort is noble indeed, but at last we are not one in actuality. Doctrine is important, it always has been. I believe my fundamental beliefs are not necessarily shared by all Logos users, so again to have this type of collaboration is most unwelcomed, and I look forward to being able to disable such community involvement.
Regards
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Donnie Hale said:Rene Atchley said:
Mr. Pritchard has been clear about the general direction and philosophy of the Logos brand in the coming years.
Are you ever going to get his name right, or are you just doing this in a passive-aggressive manner to tweak Bob? His name is "Bob Pritchett."
Donnie
Which ever implied reason pleases you the most I suppose
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How to keep everyone happy
From one of Bob Pritchett posts:
“”I hire a kid to sit at the freeway ramp that comes into downtown and count cars by make. He makes tick-marks on a sheet every time he sees a Ford, a Chevy, a Volvo, etc. I can report each week that 40% of cars coming into town are American made.
Now people freak out at the privacy intrusion. They want to "opt-out" of the "Auto Make Survey" statistics. So the Department of Motor Vehicles adds a "do not track" flag to everyone's auto registration records. Now the kid has to write down license plate numbers, too, then look them up in the database, and determine if the Ford / Chevy / Volvo can be counted.””
In case anyone missed the point: in order to not invade the perceived privacy of the driver [and not count their car] we now have to make a list of WHO entered the city in addition to WHAT entered. A list now exists that tracks when YOU entered the city when all they wanted was WHAT entered. YOU lost privacy by demanding privacy! [Before it was just that a FORD entered the city. Now it is YOUR FORD entered and we have an approximate time of day [those don’t stop to pay toll gizmos record every time you go through a toll booth to the nearest second] ] Are we having fun yet?
But Bob is NOT hiring a kid to sit at the freeway ramp, he is looking at the recorded GPS data of every car and checking if they entered the city and if they did then report what make of car entered the city. The fix is to add a privacy flag to that GPS data stream. [a NOT FOR PUBLIC USE flag] then that car’s GPS data never gets into the GPS FOR PUBLIC USE database. Then we do not have to check if the car’s privacy flag is set because if it was its data never got into the database that we used to count cars entering the city.
For Logos: Add a DO NOT DATA MINE MY DATA flag to the upload of the DATA sent to Logos. If DNDMND flag not set then send this record to the DATA MINE DATABASE. Then Logos can do all the data mining it wants on its data mine database. Only the data from customers that did not set the DNDMND flag would be in the database. No need to check at the time it was data mined as it never got there. The drivers that did not want their cars counted never were seen by the ‘hired kid’.
A one time change to the program that sends the data to the different databases. [A onetime change to show that you do take customers concerns into account] And the only time the DNDMND flag needs to be checked. Uses need to be told that any actions they take before they set the DNDMND flag is fair game for data mining. We also need to be assured that the data mine databases will be cleared on a given date some time after the DNDMND flag is installed on the uploads to Logos so that our OLD DATA will be removed from the Data mining database.
Also you might want to assure us that when you make the DNDMND changes that all user ids are also striped off the data sent to the data mining database. If you want to track package usage then replace any user identification with a flag that shows the package owned by that customer before sending the data to the data mine database. [Warning I own both Platinum and Capstone – have fun!]
Also you might want to assure us that the only user id info that you send to the rating, highlight, [etc] data mining databases is our DENOMINATION setting. [then on the reports we see we can set the DENOMINATION flag to be what we want to see in the report. If we want to see the reviews on a book about [for example] the POPE we can set the flag to CATHOLIC to see how his friends rate it or PROTESTANT to see how his non-friends rate it. Of course if we forget to reset the flag then the data Logos up loads from us will be garbage [a protestant being recorded as a Catholic] unless there are two flags. One flag for “my denomination is” and the second flag for “I want to know how this other denomination” sees things. [most will set the two flags the same and never change the “how I see things” flag – others of us will change it six times a day]]
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Well, I've no longer got a dog in this hunt. After reading Bob's thread (this one) the other night, I thought the whole thing is positively creepy. I can't image pulling a book out of my library knowing the creepy ones are watching ... I guess recording which page I turn to, etc. I do have privacy concerns but they mainly relate to our friend who must concern himself with other intrusions of the 'kgb' type .... plain old everyday courtesy.
But I was impressed with the above plea to separate the collection issue from the display issue. Luckily the displayers (who meet on the 3rd day of the week at 10am) probably have an inside track from the collectors (who are positively weird, can't agree on even meeting and truth be told are paranoid).
Christianity is so funny. You'd think they perceive themselves as a common group with differing needs. One need not intensionally denying the other.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark O'Hearn said:
I believe my fundamental beliefs are not necessarily shared by all Logos users, so again to have this type of collaboration is most unwelcomed, and I look forward to being able to disable such community involvement.
You can turn off community highlights right now.
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I think the "counting cars" analogy is a little flawed. I'm not asking Logos to "count" me driving in the city but then to hide the count based on my registration. I'm asking for the option for Logos not to count everywhere I go in the first place. It's a very easy fix. It doesn't require Logos to alter any databases. It simply requires the desktop application to not track and report on me.
It's not that I want Logos to collect a lot of data and then have to do a lot of work to hide it. I understand Bob's reasons why that creates a lot of extra work. Instead, just don't collect it in the first place. That's a fair and reasonable request. I think the controls here are very simple. If internet is enabled it's only a few options: Can the app check for updates? Do you want your documents synched for private use across devices? Do you want your documents included in "community" features? Do you want community content available in Logos? Do you want the application to record feedback based on your behavior?
This seems pretty simple to me unless Logos has already decided that their business model requires everyone to jump in.
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Oh lordy, Samuel ... Bob not track you in the first place?? That means him not sync your highlights, etc. And he's NOT going to do THAT. Since he made it easy for you to accidentally delete all your work, you'll SURELY need to call him to restore them. Guaranteed.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dear all: To my understanding the problem here is that we are "personalizing this thing".
Logos is not snooping on you, the person. As far as the data itself is concerned, when they compile it, you, the person, are a non-entity.
It how the Program and its features are being used. Your personal information is not part of it, your name and info are not part of it. The computer compiling and sorting the info does not know you exist.
Example: My car has to be put in the shop, they hook it up to the diagnostic computer which interfaces with the cars computer.
The mechanic and see's all the data of how the car is running, a diagnostic report is produced that shows all the information about the components of the car and, how the car was being driven when it failed: Throttle position , accelerating or coasting, or de-accelerating/braking, cornering or straight etc, etc.
The download also goes to the manufacturer which has all of the cars "usage data" about how this car is being used/driven and how it is responding.
Thus the car maker's engineers have data in order to better make cars that match the driving habits of the average driver so as to improve the cars and gas milage reliability etc, etc.
It is a wrong idea that all of this is something new and never been done before.
It's been done though-out the history of humanity in ways appropriate to the technology of the time.
In the 70's people were paid to sit in restaurants and compile date as to how people reacted to the lay-outs of eating establishments : what tables were picked most often, how people reacted to displays, how long they stayed after eating, what is ordered most often, which way people most often faced, do they like windows or more private settings etc, etc.
Restaurant owners wanted/ want to know how many times they can 'roll" a table during peak times eta. These data sets allow them to know what they can and should be doing as far as volume.
Restaurants are designed according to these "data" and it changes as we have sociological changes within our society.
Cameras is stores are not simply for security, many are used to collect data, how people respond to to displays, how much time do they take to read a product advertisement if it is made a certain way, what traffic flow patterns do stores have if laid out in certain ways.
Everything , just about everywhere is data mined in order to maximize usability, promote sales, safety etc. etc, etc.
In every Church, staff has meeting where you talk about how people respond to this situation, these type hymns, songs, what people need to hear, what affects their lives, what the problems of society are and how we minister to that, what the needs of the children's ministry are etc, etc . We do this to meet the needs of people. In this, we are taking "data" from what is going on, we are reading people and their responses to what we are doing, we are "Data Miners".
The greatest computer ever created is the human mind and it "Data mines" all days long, some of this data going into the "fight or flight" sections of the human mind, thus, some situations automatically cause us to be on "alert" and out body instantly dumps adrenaline into our system because of the data "match" between the recorded data in our mind and the data we just saw/experienced.
We "data mined" when learning to ride a bike, drive a car, etc, etc.
We watch someone else do something and we record how they do it, we are data mining them, we are recoding data about what was done, how it was done, the best ways to do it, how to do it better.
Each time we purchase something, no matter if with cash or credit, that purchase is part of a data set.
I love to garden, farm, grow things. Every time I see a farm, garden, farmer, gardener, I start data mining. If I am talking to another gardener, I am "data mining" that person for information-data.
Yes, things can go too far, yes we can be vulnerable.
But we also have to understand that we are data miners and everyone else mines data and this is part and parcel of being Human Beings.
Human beings are the only species on the planet that can compile "data" ( experiences, knowledge etc.) and had it on generationally- nothing else on this planet does this-nothing.
We all started data mining before we were born, and after birth, none of us asked our parents, brothers and sisters, family friend, is we could record what they do, the sounds they make, the movements they make, the emotional activity they produced, yet we did indeed record all of those things and formed them into "data sets" within our minds.
All "data mining" is, by companies is, is the efforts by them of doing with computers what the human mind has always been doing and is doing right now, thats where the ideas and examples actually come from.
Yes, data can be used wrongly, yes we need options, yes there needs to be protections, yes there needs to be privacy.
However, privacy is not what people often think it is.
There is no thing as "complete privacy" unless one totally isolates oneself from the rest of humanity and even then, one's thoughts and actions are known by God- no matter what one believes.
As for "being of one mind" as Christians: This does not mean what many think it does, but that is not for discussion here, what is up for discussion is the FACT that people cannot be of "one mind" without "data mining" each other, in other words, there has to be the sharing of ideas, thoughts, beliefs, experiences and the coming to a general consensus.
Thus Bob sets up a post about the subject and interacts with the people he serves, his customers, and the response/s are what he comes to understand of the customers wants and needs.
These responses , we have all made are,,,, "data sets" .
He is not going to go to his code writers and say: well Fr. Charles wants this, and so and so wants that.
No, he is going to quickly see that xyz % of the people want fine controls, abc percent would be happy with global controls, efg% do not mind the data mining etc,etc.
We all just participated in creating a "data set" ( small set ) that helps Logos make decisions .
Our very lives are constantly creating data sets that are used in real time, space and history.
Yet, for the most part, this data is used impersonally , its the usage, not the person that is the most useful data in these cases, then things are made better for the community, which is "people".
All sociology is about "what people do, what they may do, how they did it, dis it in the past, etc". All business, to serve human beings, is based on these "data sets" , weather in the past, or in todays technology.
This is nothing new, for there is nothing new under the sun. We can just do more of it, more accurately and much faster and on wider scales with more detail, but it is nothing new.
Just think about it.
Its not the data mining that bothers me, what I concern myself with is : Who is doing it, why they are doing it, what they are doing with the data.
Blessings all.
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Samuel Clough said:
I think the "counting cars" analogy is a little flawed. I'm not asking Logos to "count" me driving in the city but then to hide the count based on my registration. I'm asking for the option for Logos not to count everywhere I go in the first place. It's a very easy fix. It doesn't require Logos to alter any databases. It simply requires the desktop application to not track and report on me.
Samuel, I think you misread the technical process here. Logos is not out to count you, but they are out to sync your data - which is the reason that you can see your notes, highlights and last read position etc accross multiple devices (and Logos can restore deleted notes etc.). Many many customers demanded very loudly to have all of their stuff synced to all of their devices - which means, it travels over the internet and is stored on Logos' servers.
Your splendid isolation would require one new switch: sync on/off
Have joy in the Lord!
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Bob Pritchett said:
Logos collects stats on the use of the software. At various times we've collected all kinds of different stats; at the moment Logos 5 collects less information than earlier versions, but we expect to hook up more reporting in the future.
[...]
We tracked search queries. [...]
We tracked which dialog boxes were used. [...]
We tracked which books were opened. [...]
These stats, when aggregated, offer value to Logos and help us make a better product. Many of them also feed back into features that benefit users:
One of the potential issues/pitfalls I see with 'data mining' is what I would call 'pushing down to the lowest common denominator' or the race to mediocracy . I'm sure most of us would be familiar with one of the most abused statistical constructs — the old bell curve. It is unfortunately axiomatic that given a large enough population sampling, if one plots a curve of anything, one will end up with one of these.
Like any tool this can be used, or misused, or even abused.
Here's my point:
If there is a complex (but powerful) feature or function in a software package like Logos which data mining shows is used infrequently and/or ineffectively should the software company cut it out? After all, data mining clearly shows that it is not being used very much, and most of those people who do use it don't use it well/properly — it's right up there on the far side of the bell curve.
So should we follow one train of logic, go for the 95% and chop it off, or, should we aim higher and apply more resources to that top 3-5%, for example with more information and training. The concern I have is that if the top 3-5% is chopped off what will eventually happen is that the bell curve will just regain its shape and move to the left — the race to mediocracy.
I have recently become interested in the 'Syntax Search' feature in Logos which I saw initially in the Logos 'Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew' video training. I don't see much mentioned about it in the usual places (forum etc.). I have the MP Seminars' 'Logos Bible Software Training Manual', a paid training documentation. Syntax Search gets a one line mention on page 2 of Volume 1 — that's it. I see from querying the forums that it is tricky to learn and master — fair to say it's a top 3-5% user feature. Data mining says it is not used much — shall we chop it off? Dave Hooten might have something to say about that! And, of course, the product will be the poorer.
I believe you will see my point — slavishly and unthinkingly following where data mining leads may end up undermining the edifice.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Patrick S. said:Bob Pritchett said:
Logos collects stats on the use of the software. At various times we've collected all kinds of different stats; at the moment Logos 5 collects less information than earlier versions, but we expect to hook up more reporting in the future.
[...]
We tracked search queries. [...]
We tracked which dialog boxes were used. [...]
We tracked which books were opened. [...]
These stats, when aggregated, offer value to Logos and help us make a better product. Many of them also feed back into features that benefit users:
One of the potential issues/pitfalls I see with 'data mining' is what I would call 'pushing down to the lowest common denominator' or the race to mediocracy . I'm sure most of us would be familiar with one of the most abused statistical constructs — the old bell curve. It is unfortunately axiomatic that given a large enough population sampling, if one plots a curve of anything, one will end up with one of these.
Like any tool this can be used, or misused, or even abused.
Here's my point:
If there is a complex (but powerful) feature or function in a software package like Logos which data mining shows is used infrequently and/or ineffectively should the software company cut it out? After all, data mining clearly shows that it is not being used very much, and those people who do use it don't use it well/properly — it's right up there on the far side of the bell curve.
So should we follow one train of logic, go for the 95% and chop it off, or, should we aim higher and apply more resources to that top 3-5%, for example with more information and training. The concern I have is that if the top 3-5% is chopped off what will eventually happen is that the bell curve will just regain its shape and move to the left — the race to mediocracy.
I have recently become interested in the 'Syntax Search' feature in Logos which I saw mentioned in the Logos 'Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew' video training. I don't see much mentioned about it. I have the MP Seminars' 'Logos Bible Software Training Manual', a paid training documentation. Syntax Search gets a one line mention on page 2 of Volume 1 — that's it. I see from querying the forums that it is tricky to learn and master — fair to say it's a top 3-5% user feature. Data mining says it is not used much — shall we chop it off? Dave Hooten might have something to say about that! And, of course, the product will be the poorer.
I believe you will see my point — slavishly and unthinkingly following where data mining leads may end up undermining the edifice.
These are not unreasonable concerns, and those concerns are why we use statistical data to inform our decisions, rather than using the data as the sole basis of our decisions.
To continue using the example of Syntax Search, it's true that not many people use it. However, this information, by itself, tells us little. It might mean that it's an unpopular feature that should be cut, or it could mean that we haven't yet made it easy enough to use. In the case of Syntax Search, we've chosen to add value to the data set it queries by inventing new features on top of it, like Grammatical Relationships in Bible Word Study and the new Clause Search in Logos 5. These make it easier to derive value from that data, and in some cases, they provide the spark necessary to motivate a person to learn how to use the more advanced Syntax Search feature.
David Mitchell
Development Lead
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David Mitchell said:
In the case of Syntax Search, we've chosen to add value to the data set it queries by inventing new features on top of it, like Grammatical Relationships in Bible Word Study and the new Clause Search in Logos 5. These make it easier to derive value from that data, and in some cases, they provide the spark necessary to motivate a person to learn how to use the more advanced Syntax Search feature.
Good on ya mate! (translation from Australian = 'that's great, good to see, thanks Dave!')
[H]
p.s. do you know/have any good resources for learning how to use it effectively?
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Patrick S. said:
So should we follow one train of logic, go for the 95% and chop it off, or, should we aim higher and apply more resources to that top 3-5%, for example with more information and training. The concern I have is that if the top 3-5% is chopped off what will eventually happen is that the bell curve will just regain its shape and move to the left — the race to mediocracy.
I have recently become interested in the 'Syntax Search' feature in Logos which I saw initially in the Logos 'Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew' video training. I don't see much mentioned about it in the usual places (forum etc.). I have the MP Seminars' 'Logos Bible Software Training Manual', a paid training documentation. Syntax Search gets a one line mention on page 2 of Volume 1 — that's it. I see from querying the forums that it is tricky to learn and master — fair to say it's a top 3-5% user feature. Data mining says it is not used much — shall we chop it off? Dave Hooten might have something to say about that! And, of course, the product will be the poorer.
I believe you will see my point — slavishly and unthinkingly following where data mining leads may end up undermining the edifice.
Oh, by the way: that item that is only used by 0.1% of the users - that item that we are going to chop off
It just might only be used by the TOP 0.1% of Logos Buyers [you know: those ones with over 12,000 resources and bid on every pre-pub]
[That is the very people that are paying all the bills - Don't have the numbers for Logos sales but the top 5% of tax payers pay 50% of all taxes]
So maybe Logos does need to keep user information in the Data Mining database [and Yes, I am playing both sides of the street]
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