Sigh... all this endless discussion.
Who was it who said "You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."?? Some guy called Abe Lincoln...
This is the bottom line:
a) Logos will never please everyone
b) The discussion pro & con is moot with respect to the European Union, because (and I don't have chapter and verse, and am not going to waste time looking for it) the EU has privacy laws protecting citizens. And it doesn't matter two hoots if the Logos EULA is "governed by the laws of the State of Washington, USA". So what. Sorry guys, but the USA is not the center of the world. If Logos sells a product to EU citizens without privacy controls — and, worse, states that it is going to do so regardless — then good luck with that. I don't believe that Logos is bigger than companies like.... oh what's their names.... Google, Facebook, Apple. And stating in an EULA that Logos intends to do data mining, and thinking that because it is written in an EULA that will excuse them from not providing privacy controls, and therefore they will be free from any legal risk won't wash either — because EU laws (as I understand) don't allow companies to 'EULA away' end users' rights.
So clearly the only practical and sensible option is to:
a) put a big red switch in Preferences along the lines of 'Share information' - YES / NO (and no, M.J., it's no big deal to code it)
b) the setting would have to be, by default, "NO". Again the guideline rule in the EU is people have to 'opt in', not be tricked into being opted in by default and having to explicitly 'opt out'.
c) there should be something clearly stated during installation etc. about data mining and privacy.
and then move on — please! There are enough issues/problems etc. with the software that are much more important for everyone to be investing time in — like having a stable product that we don't have to worry about blowing up and losing hours of work.
And again.. can I clearly state, for the record, that I can see benefits in there being feedback on product usage and/or data mining for 'social features', who wouldn't want to see a good tool like Logos get better? But that does not change the reality of the requirement of user choice privacy controls. So I'm not being a Neo-Luddite or technophobe (ha, that'll be the day) and I don't wear a tinfoil hat — I just want to see things settled so other pressing issues with the platform can be dealt with.
p.s. and I am still waiting to be informed as to what is the difference between these settings:
and will the 'Data Mining' settings be part of, or extra to, the 'Send Feedback' selector.
Also Logos cannot tell users to just turn off 'Use Internet' to avoid data mining because Internet access (for getting things from Logos, not to Logos) is a necessary function for full use of the software that people have paid for. So 'Use Internet' cannot be used as a pseudo privacy switch, won't be allowed.
Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond
Logos Bible Software was created in the days of packaged software sold on physical media, before consumers had heard of the Internet. (It was 1991!)
Logos got its first Internet-enabled features in 1995, and over the years Logos has grown to be more and more connected to the Internet. Still, Logos 5 will run without an Internet connection, and users can (and do) have completely offline use of it. But most users are connected to the Internet most/all of the time, and we're designing future features in Logos to take advantage of this.
When you use a product that's delivered via a web site, there are certain assumptions you can safely make about what's being stored on the web servers: everything.
Every click, page view, search, IP address, time of visit, and bit of information typed into the site is stored. At a minimum, the standard "web log" functionality of the web server (standard since the first days of the web) is recording most of this info for every page view, and, since the entire site/application is on a remote server, all the information you type / enter is stored there, too.
Much of this info is recorded many times, at many places. Your web provider probably records and stores this info for months/years (so law enforcement can request it if desired) and the site may feed Google Analytics or another tool a copy of the data in order to get convenient reports/analysis.
People are rarely surprised by this. But it seems people are sometimes surprised, and even upset, to find out that desktop applications are now recording and reporting similar information.
Most desktop applications are, or shortly will be, completely integrated with web services. Even if an application does no explicit data sharing with a web service, simply checking RSS feeds, looking for updates / news / etc. generates web server logs that can be analyzed.
And most applications are explicitly interacting with web services, in order to deliver cloud-connected features, support synchronization between desktop and mobile devices, backup user data, access databases too large to store locally, etc.
Logos Bible Software has been interacting with web services for years. Early on it was simply retrieving news feeds and update notices, but starting with Logos 4 the application became highly integrated with web services.
We no longer think of Logos Bible Software as a stand-alone desktop software package. We think of it as a connected family of desktop and mobile software applications and online web services that help people study the Bible, alone or in community with others.
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
But our plan is to increase our use of the Internet to provide better functionality and new features, and we believe this will deliver real value to our users.
Things we do "online" and why:
Logos collects stats on the use of the software. At various times we've collected all kinds of different stats; at the moment Logos 5 collects less information than earlier versions, but we expect to hook up more reporting in the future.
These stats have led to actual improvements in our business and software. For example:
We tracked what percentage of users were on what operating system. This helped us know when we could drop support for old versions of Windows or Mac OS X, affecting few users and allowing us to allocate resources to new work instead of old OS support.
We tracked what percentage of users running the software each day had upgraded to a new version. It's useful to know when 80% of daily users are running Logos 5 -- we can stop promoting the upgrade so heavily. :-) If we weren't tracking the version used each day we'd only know the percentage of Logos 4 purchasers who had purchased Logos 5, and that might include purchasers who no longer use the software, distorting the data.
We tracked search queries. This is such a massive amount of info that the last time we decided to do some serious analysis on search queries we limited it to a single month. We sorted queries by frequency and looked to see how many used boolean operators, could not be parsed by the query engine, etc. We even just browsed them. (The document was a list of queries with counts -- no user identities.) From looking at a large aggregation of search queries we learned that boolean operators aren't used much, and were more likely to mess up a query than be used correctly. This led to the use of all-caps AND and OR as operators, reducing the chance that users would unintentionally include an "and" or "or" that messed up a query that was a phrase. We also saw people were searching for the names of holidays, like "Mothers' Day", which fed into our decision to develop the Preaching Themes database, which is used to tag resources -- and includes Mothers' Day and other holidays as themes.
We tracked which dialog boxes were used. This led to our decision to avoid dialog boxes in Logos 4.
We tracked which books were opened. This led to removing some books from collections, or keeping books in collections that we might otherwise have removed. It also helped us understand how important "smart" defaults were, in light of how strong an association there is between a book being the first reported in a tool and the one more opened.
These stats, when aggregated, offer value to Logos and help us make a better product. Many of them also feed back into features that benefit users:
We can offer "Sort by Recent" in mobile apps because the software stored what you opened when. We can offer the "auto-bookmarks" in the scroll bar of a resource, for quick jumping to a previously visited location. We can open a book on your mobile device to the place you were reading on another device because we sync your last read location. Soon we can indicate when you've read a book completely, eliminating the need to manually add a "read" tag in the library, as some users now do.
Moving forward, we plan to offer "crowd sourced" data that benefits all our users. (You will be able to turn off, or ignore, this crowd-sourced data if you don't want to use it.)
We modeled our star rating for resources on other widely used systems, like Netflix and Amazon.com and hundreds of other sites: you can apply your own star rating to any resource, which overrides any other rating. But if you don't rate something, by default you see the "community" rating. (And you can see both by hovering over the stars.)
Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource, helping you find things more easily and better understand your library.
(Both of these features were fully designed for Logos 4, but didn't make the development cutoff. When we finally shipped them in Logos 5 -- using the specs written for Logos 4 -- many users had already adopted their own meaning/conventions for tags and star ratings, and found the community data a distraction. We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.)
These community features presently treat the entire user base as one community, but the intention has always been to introduce a "users like you" component to the algorithms, much like the way Netflix tries to tell you what their algorithm thinks YOU would rate the movie, not what everyone rated it.
Our hope is that we get enough data -- using voluntarily provided info like "denomination", and sales data like "what books you specifically purchased" -- that we could give you a star rating from "users like you", and weight the community tags in the same way. So a commentary set labeled 5 stars and tagged "reliable" by users of one denomination, say, would be reported that way to others of that denomination who bought similar resources, but might be rated "3 stars" and tagged "conservative" to users of another denomination who had purchased different resources. (The rating would probably differ, but you'd probably see all the tags -- they'd just be different sizes for different users.)
(This kind of recommendation system requires a lot of data in order to work, but with over 1 million users of our platform, we believe we can collect enough data to make it work in the future. And this is something we want to do in response to actual user requests: new customers often ask "what books should I buy?" or "can you recommend a commentary I can trust?" Or, "can you label the commentaries as conservative/liberal, or this-label/that-label?" We can't really do that in a way that's right for everyone, but we might be able to let "everyone" tell us enough that we can tell you what "people like you" think about this or that book. I'm sure this doesn't appeal to our 'power users', but I know it's highly requested by many new users. They want your opinion, power user!)
Popular highlights is another long-planned feature that aggregates many users' data (in this case, extracting the highlighted range, but not the text of notes or even the label of the highlighting style) to report which ranges of books were highlighted by many people. (The 'many' is dynamic -- in some resources it's 5+ users -- the minimum -- and in others there are so many highlights that a range isn't considered popular until 20, 50 or more users have independently highlighted it.)
Aggregated demographic data will be extracted and likely shared with some publishers and authors. I'm not sure how useful this actually is -- will knowing that a book is popular with people who use the Greek NT, or even with people who have identified with a particular denomination, be useful to an author or publisher? Will someone go run an ad in the denomination magazine as a result? I don't know, but I do know that authors and publishers love this kind of info. "Lutheran women read my book on Wednesdays on Android phones, but they all give up after chapter 6. What does it mean?!" :-)
We hope to extract other useful stats from the intersection of feature use reporting and user data. I can imagine doing an analysis to see what words in the Greek NT are most often right-clicked and looked up, or have a Bible Word Study run on them. (And/or which words were the headwords for user-edited Bible Word Study Guides.) From this we might be able to get a list of "words of significant interest", in which we could invest more editorial resources and/or new features. The "Interesting Words" section of the Passage Guide, presently built by statistical analysis of the text, could be informed by statistical analysis of user interaction, too.
In the same way (I'm making stuff up now) we might want to run an analysis of which verses in the Bible have the most user-written note text attached. This might tell us the passages we should be giving the most attention to in future updates of the Faithlife Study Bible, or the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary.
Admittedly, these features would require "looking at synced user data" -- but I hope you can see how "the looking" is done by algorithms and doesn't represent a privacy invasion. In fact, this type of analysis is only useful when it's on "too much data." We need the forest, not a tree, to see the patterns that help us design features and content.
Other ways we'll be introducing "community":
We're lighting up collaborative documents at http://documents.logos.com. This will eventually be enabled for almost every document type.
The "personal" use case is your being able to publish (read-only) or collaborate (shared editing and ownership) documents with any group you'd like. A pastor / professor / teacher could publish notes on a book of the Bible. Students could collaborate on a note document on a textbook. A scholar could collaborate on a highlighting project with a research assistant.
We hope to enable some forms of "community" data editing -- and even remote editorial work for compensation. For example, Logos 5 has some data sets that were created by tagging the biblical text -- we even used our own highlighting tool for some of the work. With collaborative documents, users could choose to join a tagging project on a text that Logos might not otherwise get to. Imagine if referent analysis, speaker labels, word senses, and clause searching were available for the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo, and all of the Perseus Project. These collaborative/social documents could help us distribute the workload over many contributors, track who made what contribution, and even pay for contributions in Logos credit.
This could allow students to "work for books" (a request we get surprisingly often) and help us offer richer data sets that we might otherwise not soon afford or have time to create.
We plan to make it easier to recommend resources and even to share quotations from resources. You can already tweet or share quotes from books, but in future releases you'll have the option to share a quotation from the book publicly, and resources will have online pages where you can see the publicly shared quotations before buying the resource.
See https://faithlife.com/markbarnes/resources as an example; it is a summary of Mark Barnes' reviews. The disabled tab for "Recommendations" is where I will be able to see all the books Mark has recommended (either publicly, or to a specific group that he and I are co-members of -- so he could recommend a particular book just to his church, or a class). On the "Quotes" tab I would see any quotes from the book that Mark had intentionally shared -- and, if I own the book, I'll be able to jump directly to that location in the book.
(Mark, I hope you don't mind me using you as an example -- you've written a lot of reviews. Thanks!)
We take user privacy very seriously; we offer a number of settings, you have the option to run completely offline, and we follow best practices like not storing your password at all. (That's why our CS reps can't tell or email your password, only reset it -- we literally don't have access to it.)
At the same time, though, we are committed to being a web-based, data-driven platform. We are no longer designing a stand-alone, isolated desktop application. Some planned features will require access to databases too large to deliver to user devices; you'll need web access to use them. We will be listening to our users, responding to their feedback and concerns, but like other web-based platforms, we will not necessarily be offering control over every individual setting. Some things come along with being web-based.
For example, you can choose to keep all your digital photos on your own machine disconnected from the Internet, or you can choose to upload them to Flickr. And at Flickr you may even have some settings about what info is shared with what users, or what permissions your photos are shown with. But Flickr will analyze all the uploaded photos to build a report of what cameras / phones are being used: http://www.flickr.com/cameras/ You can't say "yes, I want my photos stored on your server, but no, don't count them in your stats."
We are very careful and respectful of individual privacy, and we'll be offering some controls/options, but we aren't, for example, going to support "sync my data but don't count me towards the number of Mac OS X users."
The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.
I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.
Comments
What I find most ironic in all this is that the same company that keeps an understandably strict policy at its forums about theological discussion and debate is now embarking on having its same users collaborate within its program. Surely theology will then be an issue, right?
For me the Logos community is not the Church, though that is not to suggest that I believe many users are not Christians. Like the Christian assemblies in the first century, even among true believers there were carnal and spiritual (mature) members (and heretics). Hence all the divisions that Paul mentioned earlier in this thread.
Jack's comment concerning trusted authors is sound. Authors can earn our trust in the books they write by allowing us the opportunity to examine their theology. We cannot do the same without knowing the theology of others.
Ultimately this is why Christians have placed themselves into separate camps - the desire to protect themselves from error. Of course we all think (myself included) our camp is the perfect one, or at least the best one available until He returns and gets rid of all these man-made divisions. The church of Corinth is a classic example, and I have always been amazed that Paul did not praise those "with Christ" from the other mentioned groups. Seems clear to me that there should be no divisions whatsoever.
To that end this direction Logos seems to be headed is again noble, but it is flawed, and could prove destructive to new believers in feeding on false doctrine by others they won't even know. Today we are just talking about highlighting, ratings, reviews, etc., but where does tomorrow take us?
Regards
Many of these same objectors then cried foul that Logos would dare to store then very private Bible Study notes and Prayer Lists on their servers. Now, it seems that they have allowed Logos to store their data on the Logos servers, but object to Logos using that data for statistical purposes. Those protestors will have to forgive me for not taking their objections seriously, for it does not appear to me that they are very serious in their propositions.Excuse me Jack, but how in the h - e - double hockey sticks do you know if I am storing my prayers on Logos' servers? Here is a hint: I am not! Please do not make assumptions on what I am doing and then make blanket statement based on your assumptions.
You missed the point, and I am done with this thread
hi
all this sounds very interesting,
how can you even think about doing this sort of thing when you can't even get
video resources to stream correctly ,. I still cannot get the videos to work,
the product. I am trying to get to work correctly is called The Greatest Book Series
why can't logos 5 use the videos from my dvd why do I have to streamer them?
mick
Hi Mick
I still cannot get the videos to work,
the product. I am trying to get to work correctly is called The Greatest Book Serie
Didn't the process which Bradley outlined at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/55400/400829.aspx#400829 get this working for you?
If not, I suggest you post back in that thread
Graham
At any rate, just 50 to 60 years ago, everyone was much more "social" than they are now and "privacy" was an altogether different conversation.
And do you know what is interesting, Charles? For all of our present day trends towards "community", for all of our social networking, for all of our Internet "relationships"... every study out there has indicated that people are more and more fragmented, more and more isolated, less and less connected, and more and more lonely and depressed. That's because all of this so called "community" isn't biblical "community" at all. It isn't true Christian koinonia. Online "relationships" aren't "real" relationships. People are substituting a two-dimensional imitation of community and relationship -- a caricature -- for the real thing. It's tragic. It actually creates a greater hunger than it satisfies.
That's one of the reasons why many of us are very uncomfortable with the whole "community" and social networking approach... It promises something it does not deliver, and provides the illusion of intimacy rather than its substance. And one of the more alarming things is to see that being promoted so much in the church. People have their heads in their iPads or phones (often pursuing their own interesting and personal rabbit trails than really tuning in to what the pastor is trying to communicate from God to the "community" of the Body at large), or are connecting to "virtual" Bible studies, "virtual" Life Groups and "virtual" prayer circles rather than taking the time and effort to become involved face to face in the real thing with live human beings, where real relationship, with all of its challenges, are worked out. If a relationship gets challenging in the virtual "community", one can simply dismiss the other person.
And just like "virtual sex", they are trading real intimacy by engaging in the illusion of the real thing. True "fellowship" and intimacy in most churches today is a joke... and in my experience, the more into tech the congregation is, the less they actually relate to one another in deep ways.... and conversely, the more that they discover real, meaningful fellowship and relationships and community with their brothers and sisters in the body of Christ, the more often they turn off their "devices"... or start leaving them at home.
And some of us "reactionaries" are trying to provide a voice of discernment in this barren technological wilderness. So yes, for this and other reasons, I'm not really excited to see my Bible software being taken over with community and social networking features.
Just as a follow up to clarify my last post... in any event, those of us who feel that way aren't saying that others have to feel the same or agree with us. If this form of community blesses you and you want to engage in it, then God bless you! I just as strongly advocate your right and opportunity to avail yourself of it if you so choose. Those of us who have scruples about it, however, are simply asking for the same courtesy in return. Allow us the right to opt out if it makes us uncomfortable. Consider us as the weaker brother if you like. [:)]
The discussion pro & con is moot with respect to the European Union, because (and I don't have chapter and verse, and am not going to waste time looking for it) the EU has privacy laws protecting citizens.
I am confident that Logos has nothing to worry about on this count.
Part of the confusion pertains to the way in which this thread refers to 'privacy' in broad and imprecise terms. The Data Protection Act (the primary legislative framework pertaining to information governance within the UK which, in turn, reflects EU directives), is particularly concerned in respect of the safeguarding of personal identifiable information (broadly speaking). The issue, therefore, is whether Logos' data mining activities violate the protections regarding personal identifiable information. It seems that Bob has been very clear that the information thus analysed does not contain, nor is associated with, personal identifiable information.
The utilisation of the cloud to synchronise documents might be a concern (as Logos, by its own admission, do not apply the highest level of safeguards to this information) except that the legislation allows for a differentiation in respect of degrees of confidentiality. The information governance controls required in respect of medical records are, therefore, very different from that required in respect of, say, a prayer list.
Consent is also a factor. Agreement to the EULA constitutes consent (in the context of sensitive personal identifiable information, a more rigorous test, in law, may be required).
I cannot comment as to how this might relate to US law.
This is not intended to placate or reassure those who are unhappy with regards to the practice of data mining. It is intended, however, to bring clarity to the notion that Logos is invading or violating the privacy of its users (in a legal sense). From an UK/EU perspective, this notion is not supported by the current legislative framework.
You refer to violation by Google, Facebook, et al. I see no benefit in rehearsing the specific controversies here, except to say that I am unaware of any correlation between those specific scenarios and the activity of data mining (particularly where this is stipulated in the EULA).
For all of our present day trends towards "community", for all of our social networking, for all of our Internet "relationships"... every study out there has indicated that people are more and more fragmented, more and more isolated, less and less connected, and more and more lonely and depressed.
I thought that we were not suppose to talk about the Emperor's Clothes?
[;)]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
Allow us the right to opt out if it makes us uncomfortable.
Hi Emile,
You, and Donovan, have compellingly (and generously) articulated the need for such controls for those ministering on the mission field. For what it is worth, I not only support your request, but would willingly forgo any benefits universal data mining, synchronisation of documents, etc., might yield, if it ensured that those who most need the software are able to continue to use it.
I thank the Lord for the astonishing tools and resources made available through Logos Bible Software. However, when viewed in the clear light of the day, it is a luxury. I can access libraries and order books for next day delivery. I appreciate that, on the mission field, this may not be possible and, as such, for those on the front line, Logos is considerably more than a luxury and perhaps approaches something close to a necessity.
Blessings [:D]
If there is a complex (but powerful) feature or function in a software package like Logos which data mining shows is used infrequently and/or ineffectively should the software company cut it out? After all, data mining clearly shows that it is not being used very much, and most of those people who do use it don't use it well/properly — it's right up there on the far side of the bell curve.
It is almost certain that the more advanced tools such as Syntax searches, Graphical Queries and transcriptions of ancient manuscripts will only be used by Bible scholars and advanced students using Greek and Hebrew. In fact, even they will not use these specialized tools every day. But does that make these tools less important? These less used tools are like some specialized tool in a craftsman's toolbox. He does not use it every day or on every project. But when he needs it, none of his everyday tools will do the job.
Most of the cutting edge advances in any field are made by specialists who use tools that the average person would not understand. This is no less true in Bible scholarship. Scholars deep deeply into minor details of the biblical text and present the results of their analysis in scholarly journals and meetings of professional societies. Then other scholars test their work to verify its accuracy. Very precise tools are necessary for this research and the continuing scholarly dialog. The work of scholars largely goes unnoticed by average Christians. Eventually the results of their research filters down into commentaries and popular Christian books and then pastors start using the information in their sermons. But scholars are important part of the body of Christ that protects the body from the attacks of skeptics and internal decay withing the church.
The beauty of Logos is that it provides a wide range of tools and resources for everything from new Christians to the most advanced scholar. I hope Logos will continue to offer tools and resources for the 1% who want to dig deeper. The whole church will be the better for it.
Dear Emile: Great Post!
I agree with everything you said about the social trends in our country and, the world around us I suppose.
You get no argument from me there-same page.
It's why I brought up the examples from the past.
However, the real question concerning that is "what is privacy"?
The bottom line is that it means different things to different people, depending on how they were raised, what their life experiences are, so forth and so on.
Privacy has always and will always mean different things to different people, thus, we need options within the software so each person can opt in, or opt out.
Next: My understanding of Bobs post was that no "personal" information was part of the plan, just simple data on "how the program " was being used.
Again, If this is the case, we have "this information" extracted from "the devices" we use-constantly. Take your car to the shop, how the car is being used is extracted as a data set.
Use the internet, how the internet program and pug-in's are being used is extracted data.
Use a cell phone, same deal.
Use cable internet? Data of usage is extracted about that connection.
Visit a restaurant ? Data is extracted from the usage of that establishment.
Go to Wal-mart? Data is extracted from each persons visit , they can tell you the major age groups of shoppers, % difference between male and female, display attraction rates, colors best responded too etc, etc.
Do the stores, car manufacturers have a right to collect and use this "data" ?
We all extract Data all day long, without permissions , I might add, it's just what our brain does.
Go into a store, spend 20 min there and believe it or not, our brains stored huge amounts of "data" while there, every person we saw, what they were doing, what they looked like, all the products we looked at, where they were etc, etc.
Thus, we can say: Data mining is done all the time.
The question that is presented here at Logos is what kind of data, how it is to be used, is it randomized ( non-personal ) and can we opt in or out?
We certainly don't want Logos telling us what to think, believe and/or what to read.
I , for one, do not want my desktop cluttered up with things I don't want or need. Thought I will access community "thoughts/trends etc" from time to time if that data is available, as a research tool.
I would not mind sharing a sermon, however, I would not want research notes shared, they are messy, full of questions and incomplete thoughts, that's why they are research "notes" -smile.
So, for me, it comes down to what is being gathered, what is being presented and options that fit ( as best as possible ) the needs of a pretty wide group.
And do you know what is interesting, Charles? For all of our present day trends towards "community", for all of our social networking, for all of our Internet "relationships"... every study out there has indicated that people are more and more fragmented, more and more isolated, less and less connected, and more and more lonely and depressed. That's because all of this so called "community" isn't biblical "community" at all. It isn't true Christian koinonia. Online "relationships" aren't "real" relationships. People are substituting a two-dimensional imitation of community and relationship -- a caricature -- for the real thing. It's tragic. It actually creates a greater hunger than it satisfies.
That's one of the reasons why many of us are very uncomfortable with the whole "community" and social networking approach... It promises something it does not deliver, and provides the illusion of intimacy rather than its substance. And one of the more alarming things is to see that being promoted so much in the church. People have their heads in their iPads or phones (often pursuing their own interesting and personal rabbit trails than really tuning in to what the pastor is trying to communicate from God to the "community" of the Body at large), or are connecting to "virtual" Bible studies, "virtual" Life Groups and "virtual" prayer circles rather than taking the time and effort to become involved face to face in the real thing with live human beings, where real relationship, with all of its challenges, are worked out. If a relationship gets challenging in the virtual "community", one can simply dismiss the other person.
And just like "virtual sex", they are trading real intimacy by engaging in the illusion of the real thing. True "fellowship" and intimacy in most churches today is a joke... and in my experience, the more into tech the congregation is, the less they actually relate to one another in deep ways.... and conversely, the more that they discover real, meaningful fellowship and relationships and community with their brothers and sisters in the body of Christ, the more often they turn off their "devices"... or start leaving them at home.
And some of us "reactionaries" are trying to provide a voice of discernment in this barren technological wilderness. So yes, for this and other reasons, I'm not really excited to see my Bible software being taken over with community and social networking features.
Well said [Y]
Sometimes I think that folks are too
paranoid about there online privacy.. . . it's not like
some Christians are hunted down and imprisoned or killed for what the
authorities have discovered on the internet...
At least not in America . . . YET!
Core i7-2630QM CPU 2.00 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 64-Bit Windows 7 Professional SP1
Popular Highlights, on the other hand, are anonymous, so I cannot evaluate their value.
Somehow, I think people are loosing track of that. I find it humorous that there is all the fuss about something of the nature of "in a resource that has been highlighted by more than some number of users out of approximately 750,000 users, this particular word or phrase has been highlighted by at least x percentage of those users." the highlights. meaning - positive, negative or neutral - is totally unknown e.g. it may be marking a difficult word, the end of one's reading, strong agreement, strong objection, point the prof might test on ... This strikes me as anonymous and useful primarily for sociological studies.
I suspect that the real issue is fear that it may become a slippery slope to the point that we could at least make educated guesses as to the group and/or meaning of the highlights. If I shared that concern, I would share the objections of the privacy seekers. If I am wrong and their real issue is the data-mining itself, Logos has been mining out data openly for several years. It is simply that old fears have been resurrected.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
I suspect that the real issue is fear that it may become a slippery slope to the point that we could at least make educated guesses as to the group and/or meaning of the highlights. If I shared that concern, I would share the objections of the privacy seekers.
Some of us are concerned by both.
If I am wrong and their real issue is the data-mining itself, Logos has been mining out data openly for several years. It is simply that old fears have been resurrected.
Hmm. Wish I had know that a year ago. If I had, I probably wouldn't have switched to Logos...
MJ ... your absolutely correct. What with my 5 accounts at Logos and my fascination for Asherah (Baal's ok when he's not making a complete fool of himself with El), people are going to figure this in no time at all!
(I'll delete this message really soon before anyone reads it).
EDIT: That tricky CEO for Logos is AT IT AGAIN! (I can't believe it). I turned off my Logos5 to protect it from becoming 'unclean'. Then they offer the 'Samaritans and Early Judaism' (I think in the Jewish package). Oh goodness. Good thing I kept Libronix linked up with Logos.com. Whew!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
Btw: Forums are data mined.
The discussion pro & con is moot with respect to the European Union, because (and I don't have chapter and verse, and am not going to waste time looking for it) the EU has privacy laws protecting citizens.I am confident that Logos has nothing to worry about on this count.
I wouldn't be so sure. Not saying that any EU commissioners or whatever are knocking on Logos' door right now, but why push it?
I cannot comment as to how this might relate to US law.
Without wanting to offend any of our US brethren, I would have to say I am really not 'bound up' by American law. Who says it is perfect?
Agreement to the EULA constitutes consent
As I said, Logos cannot abrogate EU users' civil rights via an EULA, foreign or not. And if I was them I would not put it to the test. What the heck would be the point?
Point in case (and this is the reason I included Apple in my previous post) is Apple's situation regarding warranties in the European Union. Apple was selling extended (AppleCare) warranties in the EU. Only problem is that the standard (free) warranty period granted to the consumer through purchase is longer than Apple's standard (guess what they provide in America) warranty and they were trying to charge EU users for extended (AppleCare) warranties which overlapped the default warranty. Guess who lost? And paid out a lot into the bargain.
Also I believe Facebook is also currently in privacy hot water in the EU and it is not even anything related to PII (Personally Identifiable Information) it's related to not giving users the option to control their own privacy.
This is not intended to placate or reassure those who are unhappy with regards to the practice of data mining. It is intended, however, to bring clarity to the notion that Logos is invading or violating the privacy of its users (in a legal sense). From an UK/EU perspective, this notion is not supported by the current legislative framework.
We're not talking about "invading" or "violating" we're talking about not providing any means whatsoever of opt out — and setting that as a default.
Also heck, if Logos was invading or violating privacy then they would be in even deeper doo doo.
Then there is the point about sending possibly personally identifiable information cross border (to servers under the jurisdiction of the US). European MEPS are getting really twitchy about that point.
And again, what I am saying is:
a) Why risk it? Why risk (and they very likely eventually would be) stepping on governments' toes; why risk aggrevating and alienating some percentage of their user base?
b) It's not that big a deal, put the option in their to opt in / opt out and believe that most people will be interested to support / benefit from user data aggregation and let's move on.
[Edit] The statement "let's move on" I was meaning in the sense of let's agree that there are valid differences — which can be addressed — and let's move on improving Logos as a tool for us studying the word. As I had outlined in a couple of previous posts.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
Btw: Forums are data mined.
Within minutes of you posting something on this forum it is already indexed by Google.
And FYI you are being tracked on the Logos forum...
and here's what this company OpenX does with what it tries to get on you... basically you are a commodity to be sold...
Regarding PII (point one in screenshot) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personally_identifiable_information
Logos could well be already (indirectly) in violation of this EU directive...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Privacy_and_Electronic_Communications
"Data retention and other issues
The directive obliges the providers of services to erase or anonymize the traffic data processed when no longer needed , unless the conditions from Article 15 have been fulfilled.[7] Data may be retained upon a user’s consent for marketing and value-added services. For both previous uses, the data subject must be informed why and for how long the data is being processed.
Where data relating to location of users or other traffic can be processed, Article 9 provides that this will only be permitted if such data is anonymized, where users have given consent, or for provision of value-added services. Like in the previous case, users must be informed beforehand of the character of information collected and have the option to opt out.[10]"
...through points 1 & 3 because this company tracking you (not me, I'm blocking them) on the Logos forum is engaged in this:
"pseudonymous profile
A pseudonymous profile is a collection of information about a particular computer user that identifies the user either by their computer's IP address or by a randomly-generated nickname. In general, a pseudonymous profile describes the particular interests, habits, and online activities that can be attributed to a specific user, or at least to a specific computer. Pseudonymous profiling is often used for Web site personalization, or for marketing purposes.
Although most organizations that create pseudonymous profiles assure users that they cannot be personally identified, some people have raised concerns. For example, if a user enters personal information at one Web site, it may become available to others. The user profile is linked to the IP address, which may be linked on another Web site to the user's personal information. Spyware objects such as Web bugs can be used to track users from one site to another. Some software products allow users to identify individual users of a multiple-user computer by analyzing data gathered about their keyboard usage, navigation patterns, and Web sites visited. The vendors of one such product, Predictive Networks, use click stream data, artificial intelligence (AI), and mathematical analysis to create complex pseudonymous profiles called Digital Silhouettes that can accurately distinguish specific users. Software products such as WebSafe and Anonymizer are designed to ensure anonymous Web surfing."
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
I wouldn't be so sure. Not saying that any EU commissioners or whatever are knocking on Logos' door right now, but why push it?
I agree that users cannot waive their statutory rights by EULA or any other means.
My point is, succinctly, this: the data mining activity as described by Logos does not involve or relate to personal identifiable information. Therefore, there is no risk of liability (in respect of UK/EU legislation). The EULA is relevant inasmuch as it establishes consent in relation to Logos lawful activity.
I share your concerns regarding some of the practices reported in relation to Google, Apple, Facebook, et al. Again, even allowing for the examples you kindly provide, I still maintain that the activity of those companies is not relevant to the data mining practices as described by Logos (these other issue differ in substance and in scope).
This issue (relating to the practices of Logos), from a UK/EU perspective is not a matter of law.
I accept that there is an issue of preference and, for some, a matter of conviction. I think you fairly reflect this in your observation,
why risk aggravating and alienating some percentage of their user base?
I certainly agree with your concluding point,
It's not that big a deal, put the option in their to opt in / opt out and believe that most people will be interested to support / benefit from user data aggregation and let's move on.
Finally, it is not my intention to be combative (please forgive me if this appears so [:|]). I recognise and greatly appreciate your many helpful posts on the forum. I also appreciate your fair and reasoned contributions to even potentially fractious debates such as this.
I am just concerned that anxieties and fears are not fuelled by a lack of clarity regarding matters of law and matters of fact.
I will happily allow you the final word on this issue and trust we can agree to disagree on friendly terms [:D]
Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource, helping you find things more easily and better understand your library.
Your comments are priceless.
Better understanding your library is a priority for someone like me with nearing 6,000 resources. It is my habit to tag each of my resources as I add them to my library. It would be very useful to have some way to maximally classify a resource by being able to expose some of the major themes in a resource. Sort of like an interesting words feature or to borrow an idea from Amazon kindle, x-ray the major features of the resource. This would be useful to those who search from collections something I do often.
We're lighting up collaborative documents at http://documents.logos.com. This will eventually be enabled for almost every document type.
The "personal" use case is your being able to publish (read-only) or collaborate (shared editing and ownership) documents with any group you'd like. A pastor / professor / teacher could publish notes on a book of the Bible. Students could collaborate on a note document on a textbook. A scholar could collaborate on a highlighting project with a research assistant.
A wish I have is to collectively wrestle into submission first Greek, then Hebrew, and Latin, finally German. The community encouraged by FaithLife may be a candidate for a willing proficient anointed soul to offer this. Reading Augustine which has been suggested in another thread "Reading the Fathers," is another e.g. of the same. Again, I appreciate the time you invested into baring your ideas and explanations.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
Yep ... for a long time turning on cookies was just the 3 ones that Logos dumped in whether the forum or Logos.com. Then their Faithlife effort dumps in more. I usually go in and clear their dumps after a forum entry and for sure after a Logos.com purchase. I also keep my forum entries pretty random (or as Matthew notes 'an enigma').
NYTimes had a good 5 page article on this yesterday. Data auctioning, etc. The problem with Logos isn't 'today' per se but tomorrow. Bob can really rationalize when he wants to.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
It's not that big a deal, put the option in their to opt in / opt out and believe that most people will be interested to support / benefit from user data aggregation and let's move on.Finally, it is not my intention to be combative (please forgive me if this appears so
). I recognise and greatly appreciate your many helpful posts on the forum. I also appreciate your fair and reasoned contributions to even potentially fractious debates such as this.
Dear Andy — Hi I was in no way directing the phrase "let's move on" to you personally. My apologies if it appeared to you that way. I was directing this to Logos and the whole Logos user community. Not you personally — I would be upset if you took it that way.
I had mentioned in a number of previous posts that couldn't we all just agree that there are valid concerns from one side, a perceived (and likely real) benefit from the other side and let's "move on" as in agree and get a clear plan and close off this hashing and rehashing discussion which really is getting to have no value.
I got a bit techy also - and your post was one I just happened to reply to.
What do I hope to see - a good Logos product that benefits us all in this spirit that I expressed three screens ago [:)]
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61459/436241.aspx#436241
Patrick
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
It is almost certain that the more advanced tools such as Syntax searches, Graphical Queries and transcriptions of ancient manuscripts will only be used by Bible scholars and advanced students using Greek and Hebrew. In fact, even they will not use these specialized tools every day. But does that make these tools less important? These less used tools are like some specialized tool in a craftsman's toolbox. He does not use it every day or on every project. But when he needs it, none of his everyday tools will do the job.
Most of the cutting edge advances in any field are made by specialists who use tools that the average person would not understand. This is no less true in Bible scholarship. Scholars deep deeply into minor details of the biblical text and present the results of their analysis in scholarly journals and meetings of professional societies. Then other scholars test their work to verify its accuracy. Very precise tools are necessary for this research and the continuing scholarly dialog. The work of scholars largely goes unnoticed by average Christians. Eventually the results of their research filters down into commentaries and popular Christian books and then pastors start using the information in their sermons. But scholars are important part of the body of Christ that protects the body from the attacks of skeptics and internal decay withing the church.
The beauty of Logos is that it provides a wide range of tools and resources for everything from new Christians to the most advanced scholar. I hope Logos will continue to offer tools and resources for the 1% who want to dig deeper. The whole church will be the better for it.
Well put — and I trust that Logos continue with this in the spirit of Philippians 3:12
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
Hi All!
I just tried to delete this post in "My Activity" on the "Logos Bible Software Forums" page since I re-wrote it better and posted it below, but it seems I was unable to delete it from here. It looks like I only deleted it only from "My Activity." Oh well, so much for trying to de-clutter this forum from one of my posts. Anyway, please just disregard and read my next post.
Thanks and God bless you all!
Blessings in Christ,
David
<')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))><
Hi Bob,
I echo Ron's sentiments...especially as a missionary and PhD student going abroad to a remote location for my field research. Being able to use my Logos without any requirement to connect to the Internet except occasionally for updates would be greatly appreciated as while I'm remote (hopefully not more than 2-3 months) I'll be using a Satellite phone at US $1 per minute so extremely cost prohibitive to use Logos if Internet access required.
Thanks and God bless you all!
Blessings in Christ,
David
Hi Bob,
Blessed greetings in Jesus' precious name; I pray this finds you well in our Lord!
I have two concerns, please.
1) As a missionary/teacher
and PhD student going abroad soon to a remote location for my field research, being able to use my Logos without any requirement to connect to the
Internet except occasionally for updates would be greatly appreciated as
while I'm remote (hopefully not more than 2-3 months) I'll be using a
Satellite phone at US $1 per minute which is extremely cost prohibitive to use
Logos if Internet access is required.
2) Also, I would strongly desire a way to opt out of being tracked by Logos, not because I don't trust you all, but because of the sensitive places I travel. My concern is that if you can track my Logos use it opens up a portal that could be hacked by those monitoring Internet use where I may travel. I think you understand my concerns are not reflective of Logos but are out of concern for those who monitor the Internet where I travel, and out of safety for those with whom I interact and myself.
Thank you and God bless you all!
Blessings in Christ,
David
<')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))><
I just tried to delete this post in "My Activity" on the "Logos Bible Software Forums" page
For a limited time, you can delete/edit your posts from the More drop down menu at the right top of your post. You cannot delete a post after someone—in this case, you—has responded to it. However, you can still edit the content for a few hours. Most of us usually just replace the content with something like "Deleted by author".
being able to use my Logos without any requirement to connect to the
Internet except occasionally for updates would be greatly appreciated
You can do that in both L4 and L5, and this ability will continue for the foreseeable future. Some features may be added in the future which will require internet access, but the functionality you now have will still be available offline.
My concern is that if you can track my Logos use it opens up a portal that could be hacked by those monitoring Internet use where I may travel.
Then, just being connected to the internet for synching and updates will open you up to the same tracking. The data mining discussed in this thread is taken from data placed on Logos' servers by the synchronizing features of both L4 and L5. This discussion concerns some users who object to the data from their use of Logos being tracked in this manner.
Does this answer your concerns? Do you need more information? My email is jackcav at triad dot rr dot com if you need information but do not wish to share your concerns publicly. (My address is separated in this manner to make it more difficult for spambot to contact me [8-|])
Since information is collected anyway about our uses of Logos, how about posting the most interesting search of the day for Logos 5 and its results from its many users.
That would give some of us, who still have not purchased Logos 5, some idea how it is being used. At a minimum it would hold our interest and may motivate us to upgrade from Logos 4 in time.
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
Whilst I agree with the sentiment that we should have the ability to opt out of our data being collected, I'm much more concerned about the direction of making Logos REQUIRE the internet.
My concern here is to ensure that everything I have already purchased continues to be accessible unimpeded even if access to Logos servers was permanently unavailable. It's concerning that you'll only TRY to maintain the ability to run without internet access. What I fear is an increasing reliance on an internet connection to Logos encroaching into the existing core functionality such that features we already enjoy and rely upon are increasingly 'enhanced' by an internet connection.
What happens if one is traveling without internet for a few weeks? Or working in a country with unreliable coverage? Or, my biggest fear of all, what happens if Logos the company, ceases to exist?
I would want to be sure that Logos s/w is happy to run without any further connection to Logos servers, i.e that it doesn't continually attempt to access the internet and become slowed down by network timeouts, that it doesn't pop up nag screens to tell me how much better my life would be if it could access Logos over the internet, etc.
If it truly does become impossible to 'maintain this functionality' then I would like to see the change postponed until a new major release of Logos so that those who share this concern can stick with the old release free from the risk.
The Sky Is Falling !!! ...THE SKY IS FALLING !!!
What happens if one is traveling without internet for a few weeks?
For a test, you can simply turn internet off in Tools—System Settings and see how well L5 works.
If it truly does become impossible to 'maintain this functionality'
That will not happen with the current version. If you do not want to have to rely on internet access, then do not upgrade to a version that requires that access.
The Sky Is Falling !!! ...THE SKY IS FALLING !!!
That is your very best post yet [:D]
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)Whilst I agree with the sentiment that we should have the ability to opt out of our data being collected, I'm much more concerned about the direction of making Logos REQUIRE the internet.
My concern here is to ensure that everything I have already purchased continues to be accessible unimpeded even if access to Logos servers was permanently unavailable. It's concerning that you'll only TRY to maintain the ability to run without internet access. What I fear is an increasing reliance on an internet connection to Logos encroaching into the existing core functionality such that features we already enjoy and rely upon are increasingly 'enhanced' by an internet connection.
I agree this is a reasonable concern. While high speed internet seems ubiquitous in some places, it is far from that around the globe. Hopefully Logos takes this into consideration and makes sure that Logos functions well as a desktop application in the future and does not require a constant internet connection for core functionality. I'm not sure why Logos would say it's getting "more and more difficult" to maintain software functionality without a constant internet connection. There's nothing difficult about reading and searching resources we have on our computer which is, I day say, 90% of what Logos users do.
That was fun, Schezic! What else you got?
.
.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
Here Ya go, Little Girl. [:)]
The Sky Is Falling !!! ...THE SKY IS FALLING !!!
Ooops... that gets you the award [:P]
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
For a test, you can simply turn internet off in Tools—System Settings and see how well L5 works.
I know that Logos 5 works without internet because my travel schedule was such that my Logos install had no internet access for a couple of weeks and it was fine. My worry is that Bob's comment talks of this being a concession and implies that a future version may not be able to do this.
If you do not want to have to rely on internet access, then do not upgrade to a version that requires that access.
Precisely. But the trouble is, I don't know whether a new version still works in the same way until I have it. And once I have it, if it turns out to no longer work like this, I have no way to download the old copy. That's why I was asking for the change to be done at a major release so that we can be informed of the change and choose whether to accept it, rather than it automatically downloading.
I think it's a reasonable request as they will presumably want to charge for the new functionality that needs the constant internet.
Ooops... that gets you the awardI respect your right to your opinion. ... You do know the common knowledge about opinions? [:)]
But the trouble is, I don't know whether a new version still works in the same way until I have it.
Do not believe that such a major change in the operation of Logos will come without announcement. Such a major alteration of program operation would also require a major revision to the software.
Perhaps you are reading too much into Bob's comments.
Bob's almost always already doing what 'he's thinking about doing.' Kind of like with your spouse, when you know there's going to be 'some discussion'.
Like I said 3 years ago. You buy electronic books? You're on board with whatever the bookseller wants you to do. Else dump your electronic books.
"Christian" company. No such thing. Christians, yes. And with Logos, do the math.
It's easy.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)Bob,
PLEASE continue to allow Logos to function without being connected to the Internet. I don't mind being connected for updates, resource purchases, syncing, etc., but there are many times that I am not connected to the Internet. I don't want to HAVE to be online for Logos to function. This is really an important issue for me.
Thanks,
Ron
It's a biggie for me too.
Bob:
You need to read "The Shallows," in a bad way. I know you think community is the future --and that it's an unmitigated good.
But as a network engineer, I can tell you that once your end users start actually paying for the bandwidth they use, they're all going to reconsider the "cool factor," of all this sharing.
And as a scholar, I can paraphrase what C.S. Lewis said many years ago -- "if Shakespeare were alive today, we'd cure him by the time he left elementary school." How can you cure a Shakespeare? By putting him on Facebook. And all you're doing here is trying to make Logos the Facebook of Bible study.
Don't "try to make it a goal" to add value without a connection to the Internet, make it a priority, an absolute must. Don't "think about allowing people to turn the social pieces off," make it a priority. We live in a world where applications are now being sold to take you off of the Internet for periods of time so you can get work done.
Personally, I would suggest you not bet the future of your company on social media. These things are like pendulums. There's a nice swing going in one direction right now, but it's going to swing back. The last thing I want is for Logos to be crushed under the swing away from social media and the "share everything all the time with everyone" mentality, which would cost me an $42,000 investment.
It's not just your business you're playing with here.
Russ