Question about fatherhood (Luke 11)
Dear Forum,
usually when I read verses like Lk 11:11-13, I am encouraged and know "god is a good father".
But recently my wife and I had a talk about that topic after a song came up with that topic.
Her father was abusive, doesn't care at all, and yes, he might not even care if she "gets a snake instead of a bread".
So, naturally, she has questions to this text, problems, if you will. She says, there are no problems with god, but with her father, and that she trusts the Lord and knows, he is her real father.
But how to approach a text coming from that background? Jesus sort of assumes in his question that a father wants something good for his child although he is a sinful man. What if a person does not know a father that cares, but rather one that hurts his own child and does not care?
Thank you for you insights and thoughts on this topic,
Blessings,
Thomas
user since Logos 4
Comments
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Biblically, I would go to Old Testament, starting with Psalm 68 - That God is the Father of those who have no father and connect it with passages like Jer 23 and Ezek 34 where God promises to take care of those who have been fleeced by their shepherds... And then in the New where Jesus points out that what he is doing is much more important than family obligations...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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Thomas Zimmermann said:
But how to approach a text coming from that background? Jesus sort of assumes in his question that a father wants something good for his child although he is a sinful man. What if a person does not know a father that cares, but rather one that hurts his own child and does not care?
I know nothing about THIS book, but it deals with the subject of women loving God as Father, even when they had negative experience with "dad."
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Thomas Zimmermann said:
But how to approach a text coming from that background? Jesus sort of assumes in his question that a father wants something good for his child although he is a sinful man. What if a person does not know a father that cares, but rather one that hurts his own child and does not care?
I would emphasize the contrast in the phrase "how much more" in v. 13. This is highlighted as the PRINCIPLE being taught in the Complex structure according to the Lexham High Definition New Testamen: ESV edition.
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I know someone who encountered someone similar; whenever she prayed "Our Father" she could not help but remember the terrible abuse by her own father. The importance of the doctrine of God the father is not that God is Male (the old testament and new testament have motherly images of God and Christ too), the important thing is God is our loving Creator and cares for us. God is the ideal parent figure. The book ALABAMA24 suggested may help, but there is nothing wrong with calling God mother, nor Creator (as long as you realize that the Creator God is not some distance, factory pumping out mass produced products but a loving artisan who cherishes and wants proper placement and care for what has been made).
-Dan
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Thank you all for the thoughts. :-)
The father of my wife was not sexually abusive (thank god). And what pain he caused she worked through and has a healthy relationship with god our father, and with her father in law (mine). She has no problems with Jesus being a man or anything.
It is more the phrase Jesus uses in assuming "a father would give his child nothing harmful, right?" and the crowd is supposed to answer "right!" whereas my wife would say "Jesus, this assumption is faulty". And the whole church sings "a father gives his children everything they need, how much more do you give us your spirit" (roughly translated from German).
Of course, there is a little pain in her voice when she thinks of a good father as I had the privilege to grow up with, or when she thinks about god father, whom she is thankful for so many things. There is no real bitterness, its more like sorry/pity for her father.
user since Logos 4
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Thomas Zimmermann said:
It is more the phrase Jesus uses in assuming "a father would give his child nothing harmful, right?" and the crowd is supposed to answer "right!" whereas my wife would say "Jesus, this assumption is faulty". And the whole church sings "a father gives his children everything they need, how much more do you give us your spirit" (roughly translated from German).
I think everyone in the crowd would have understood this is the way it's supposed to be with human fathers, even though not all of them measure up, and a few are truly horrible.
There are all kinds of analogies that don't work if you press them into being universally true when they are only meant to be a suggestive image. There are always a few bad apples, but that doesn't stop us from making generalities about apples because we all know that apples usually taste good. Or we can say "as quiet as a mouse" even though some mice are capable of making quite a racket. We understand the general principle of it.
So with this one, we can understand Jesus asking "we would expect a father to give his child nothing harmful, right?" (Even though some bad fathers might do such a thing, that isn't the norm.)
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Rosie Perera said:Thomas Zimmermann said:
It is more the phrase Jesus uses in assuming "a father would give his child nothing harmful, right?" and the crowd is supposed to answer "right!" whereas my wife would say "Jesus, this assumption is faulty". And the whole church sings "a father gives his children everything they need, how much more do you give us your spirit" (roughly translated from German).
I think everyone in the crowd would have understood this is the way it's supposed to be with human fathers, even though not all of them measure up, and a few are truly horrible.
There are all kinds of analogies that don't work if you press them into being universally true when they are only meant to be a suggestive image. There are always a few bad apples, but that doesn't stop us from making generalities about apples because we all know that apples usually taste good. Or we can say "as quiet as a mouse" even though some mice are capable of making quite a racket. We understand the general principle of it.
So with this one, we can understand Jesus asking "we would expect a father to give his child nothing harmful, right?" (Even though some bad fathers might do such a thing, that isn't the norm.)
Logically I agree with your analysis Rosie, but I totally feel for Thomas's wife and can understand how her life experiences may lead her to say "Jesus, this assumption is faulty". Some things in life, even though we know the answer, and everyone around us know's the answer, and they take a life time of God's grace and love, shown to us by those God places in our life, and true, complete healing still will only come when we meet God face to face. What counts now is not removing that thorn but how we respond to one another, how we respond to God. Do we accept that love and grace, or do we reject it ?
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Thomas Zimmermann said:
Thank you all for the thoughts. :-)
The father of my wife was not sexually abusive (thank god). And what pain he caused she worked through and has a healthy relationship with god our father, and with her father in law (mine). She has no problems with Jesus being a man or anything.
It is more the phrase Jesus uses in assuming "a father would give his child nothing harmful, right?" and the crowd is supposed to answer "right!" whereas my wife would say "Jesus, this assumption is faulty". And the whole church sings "a father gives his children everything they need, how much more do you give us your spirit" (roughly translated from German).
Of course, there is a little pain in her voice when she thinks of a good father as I had the privilege to grow up with, or when she thinks about god father, whom she is thankful for so many things. There is no real bitterness, its more like sorry/pity for her father.
This is why I tend not to use father language. This issue is a huge issue. For the people who I run across that have this issue with the Father image, I invite them to use whatever image works for them - scripture is full of images of God. Forcing a person to use the father image of God after he or she has been abused only brings back the abuse - not God's love.
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tom said:
This is why I tend not to use father language. This issue is a huge issue. For the people who I run across that have this issue with the Father image, I invite them to use whatever image works for them - scripture is full of images of God. Forcing a person to use the father image of God after he or she has been abused only brings back the abuse - not God's love.
I don't know if I would go for that tendency. But I can totally relate to it, as we also have a friend that was sexually abused by her own father.
On of the interesting things, though, is, that when my wife moved to Frankfurt (Germany), there was a series of sermons around the "fatherly love", which is quite an important topic. Anyhow, this series of sermons did help not only my wife but also our friend very much. Learning true fatherhood from the source of love directly can, in my opinion, help a person overcome issues with their own parents.
Still for some people a thorn remains, and this is why I was asking :-)
user since Logos 4
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We have the tendency to not talk about things that are scary, since it is not polite to piss people off. While by no means do I think we should desire to piss people off, I also do not think it is wise to ignore the elephant in the room, so to speak. It is much better to dig in and show what seems scary or terrifying is actually given to be a comfort. And we should do this by showing it - explaining it - not forcing it.
I would be one of the first to admit that "Father" is hardly the only image for God used in the Bible and by Christians, but it does have extensive use. But the story is a bit more interesting than just "patriarchy". In spite of often our assumption that "Father" is the God of the Old Testament, the Old Testament, in fact, barely uses it, and where it is used, it seems to be used to describe God as the protector of those who have no earthly protector.
One key aspect of calling God "Father" for Athanasius was that Fatherhood implies a child - (hence eternal generation of the Son, and Arius being a heretic.) And so "Father" is primarily the one JESUS is talking about. And so when Jesus tells us to call God our Father, he is telling us we can and should use his divine relationship - that in Christ we have a new relationship with the God who is behind setting the whole world in motion - with the God that is actively sending part of himself - the beloved all the way into our messy lives.
And so calling God "Father" is not saying that God is more like the man who is my father than like the woman who is my mother. It is rather a confession that we are brought into the divine relationship by the Holy Spirit so much that we can dare to call God Father, just like Jesus did... And, yes, the old me that wants to warp this relationship into something else is unfortunately still there...
IMHO, the sad thing is that as extremely "traditional" what I said above is, many people in our churches have never heard it.
I suppose I could go on, but I am already talking theology and not Logos Bible software.
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
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Ever think about the plausibility that
Jesus, while stressing the Goodness of the Fatherhood of God, may
also be contrasting it against the less-than-perfect fatherhood of
mankind?As in: “You know what you should do, and you fail. But your perfect Father will always do what is right”
Seems to fit the context.
Just saying...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Thomas Zimmermann said:
for some people a thorn remains
Hi Thomas,
While I do appreciate your use of biblical imagery, I would not call abuse a 'thorn in the flesh.' When I hear this phrase, I think of being picked by a rose thorn while holding the flower. Abuse (it doesn't matter if is sexual, physical, emotional, or spiritual) is more like lung cancer to me. If it is not treated by experts, it spreads to other areas of the person's life just like lung cancer moves to a person's brain and to the person's bones.
Thomas Zimmermann said:Learning true fatherhood from the source of love directly can, in my opinion, help a person overcome issues with their own parents
I agree, addressing a person's spiritually is part of the recovery process. Still, I will say that this is only part of the recovery process; a person who has been a victim of abuse also needs help from a psychologist.
Kenneth McGuire said:We have the tendency to not talk about things that are scary, since it is not polite to piss people off. While by no means do I think we should desire to piss people off, I also do not think it is wise to ignore the elephant in the room, so to speak. It is much better to dig in and show what seems scary or terrifying is actually given to be a comfort. And we should do this by showing it - explaining it - not forcing it.
I would be one of the first to admit that "Father" is hardly the only image for God used in the Bible and by Christians, but it does have extensive use. But the story is a bit more interesting than just "patriarchy". In spite of often our assumption that "Father" is the God of the Old Testament, the Old Testament, in fact, barely uses it, and where it is used, it seems to be used to describe God as the protector of those who have no earthly protector.
One key aspect of calling God "Father" for Athanasius was that Fatherhood implies a child - (hence eternal generation of the Son, and Arius being a heretic.) And so "Father" is primarily the one JESUS is talking about. And so when Jesus tells us to call God our Father, he is telling us we can and should use his divine relationship - that in Christ we have a new relationship with the God who is behind setting the whole world in motion - with the God that is actively sending part of himself - the beloved all the way into our messy lives.
And so calling God "Father" is not saying that God is more like the man who is my father than like the woman who is my mother. It is rather a confession that we are brought into the divine relationship by the Holy Spirit so much that we can dare to call God Father, just like Jesus did... And, yes, the old me that wants to warp this relationship into something else is unfortunately still there...
IMHO, the sad thing is that as extremely "traditional" what I said above is, many people in our churches have never heard it.
I suppose I could go on, but I am already talking theology and not Logos Bible software.
SDG
Ken McGuire
Ken, I completely agree with you.
And we need to meet the person where he or she is. If the person doesn't know or understand the biblical understanding of calling God father means, then we need to allow the person to use a different image of God. Forcing the person to use this image of God only causes the harm to the victim. If the victim can and wants to use the father image of God - GREAT!!!!.
It is while the person moves through the recovery process that we can also address the victim's spirituality, and it is during this phrase that we can inform him or her what the Bible is talking about when it uses the word Father.
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Thomas Zimmermann said:
I don't know if I would go for that tendency. But I can totally relate to it, as we also have a friend that was sexually abused by her own father.
On of the interesting things, though, is, that when my wife moved to Frankfurt (Germany), there was a series of sermons around the "fatherly love", which is quite an important topic. Anyhow, this series of sermons did help not only my wife but also our friend very much. Learning true fatherhood from the source of love directly can, in my opinion, help a person overcome issues with their own parents.
Still for some people a thorn remains, and this is why I was asking :-)
I'm not one to engage in these types of discussions, since it's not really in line with what these forums are for.But this is one of those topics that I believe is absolutely critical.
For those men and women who had harsh, abusive, or neglectful fathers, I'd argue that the concept of knowing God the Father as our Father is even more important. No earthly father is perfect, and every father's sinfulness hurts his children in some way or other. Even the best of fathers pales by comparison to God's original design for fatherhood. I believe Martin Luther also complained about the image of his harsh father popping into his mind as he prayed the Lord's prayer. But this is a problem to solve, not a condition to accept.
For those who want to help others in this, note a couple of things. First, note that when Jesus talks about fathers (in general) in this parable giving bread and not stones, etc., he says "If you who are evil, know how to give good things...," he is saying that the best human fathers are evil in comparison to God our Father (let alone the worst). Also note what Jesus says to Thomas, who asked Jesus to show the Father; Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." For those who have a psychological block about fathers, let them get to know Jesus as he's presented in the Gospels; know his patience, compassion, kindness, etc. Spend time getting to know the Jesus of the Gospels and then realize that the Father is exactly like Him - the gospel of John is especially helpful in making this connection. Healing can take time - a lot of time, but healing in this area is both possible and worth the effort. In fact, I believe God our Father is more interested in healing this in us than we are!
The reason this is critical is both theological and psychological. Sin orphans us in many ways, and one of those ways is by disrupting our basic created design to be in a relationship of trust and dependence with our Creator. Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father..." and in so doing, taught us to relate to God as members of His family. This was a break from the Judaism of His day, which presented God as primarily a rule giver and task master (a view which Jesus harshly opposed). He taught us to pray "Our Father..." because it sets our prayers (and us!) in their proper context: intimate dependence. Jesus tells the disciples when He is about to die that He will not leave them as orphans. That's a significant family term, as well. He will give them another Counselor, namely the Holy Spirit to be with us always. This Spirit within us cries out Abba, Father -- again setting us in our proper place in relationship to Him.
When we miss, bypass, neglect, minimize, or reject the idea of the Father as our Father, we are forced to find another 'metaphor' that describes our relationship with Him that invariably robs us of what God has for us. A King is powerful, but distant and inaccessible, a Creator makes us and has a right to make demands on us, a Shepherd is generally nice, takes care of us, protects us, but shepherds ultimately watch sheep to get something from them (wool or their meat). I could go on, but the point is that only by acknowledging God as Father, can have the relationship with Him that He wants and has designed for us. If that's a problem for us, psychologically, it's a problem worth addressing, it's a hurt worth healing.
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Andrew Mckenzie said:
Logically I agree with your analysis Rosie, but I totally feel for Thomas's wife and can understand how her life experiences may lead her to say "Jesus, this assumption is faulty". Some things in life, even though we know the answer, and everyone around us know's the answer, and they take a life time of God's grace and love, shown to us by those God places in our life, and true, complete healing still will only come when we meet God face to face. What counts now is not removing that thorn but how we respond to one another, how we respond to God. Do we accept that love and grace, or do we reject it ?
I totally agree with you, Andrew. I don't know why I went for the logical answer when that was clearly not what Thomas's wife needed.
I also think it's fine to approach Jesus with "I think your assumption is faulty" -- it's more honest than many of the ways we approach Jesus, and I believe he accepts our struggles and our honest doubts about his character and loves us in the midst of them. And you're right, it can take a lifetime of that love to be healed from a painful past. And we are all supposed to be part of showing that healing love of God. I guess I didn't do a very good job of that by being the logical stereotypical Christian. I'm sorry, Mrs. Zimmerman.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
I'm not one to engage in these types of discussions, since it's not really in line with what these forums are for.But this is one of those topics that I believe is absolutely critical.
Thanks for chiming in on this occasion Richard. Yes I agree it's a bit outside these forums but appreciate the way in which people have responded in genuine christian concern, on what is as you say an absolutely critical issue. I agree with your comments and they have added value for those who are following this thread. We should not try to change God's word, even when it is painful for us, those we love, or those whom we are helping. But neither should we expect that a simple explanation of how their pain or hurt is clouding their understanding of God's is all that is required to remedy the situation.
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Rosie Perera said:
I totally agree with you, Andrew. I don't know why I went for the logical answer when that was clearly not what Thomas's wife needed.
Thanks Rosie.
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Might I suggest, if you have upgraded to Logos 5, and run a phrase search on person: God (the Father) on both the Old and New Testaments. Then take a look at the various ways the Bible describes God. This will allow you and your wife to see other pictures of God used in Scripture. This can be very helpful if the picture of father has been damaged by abuse. God knew that for some of His children, because of life experiences, would need diferent types of imagery to strengthen their relationship with Him.
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I was reflecting on this a little more and in a general sense any image or model of God even those provided in scripture are never going to be complete or 100% accurate. Not intending that though to take away from the personal issue being considered.
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Thank you all for the insights and ideas you shared. Very valueable :-)
user since Logos 4
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Thomas, you and your wife have asked a valid and important question. Hearing her pain is certainly the place to start. We really must take seriously the extent of our human brokenness, and the devastating damage we do to each other--even in our families.
Eph 3:14-15 gets the perspective right. We're not saying that God is like a human father: the analogy goes the other way. God is the original, and a human parent is like God in some (limited and far from perfect) sense. That's probably obvious to a person who has worked through the abuse they've experienced, but it may be freeing to feel under no obligation to imagine the Divine Father being like our flawed human copy (compare Isa 49:15).
(In fact, Paul continues to argue that way round regarding our family relationships in Eph 5-6.)
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