Rejoice Christian Software out of business?

I ordered a Libronix CD from Rejoice Christian Software in december. I received a order confirmation immediately, but did not receive any sending confirmation later on. I have tried to get in touch with the company several times by email. But I do not receive any response. I have registered my credit card and became a bit worried...

Do this company still exist? And how can I come in touch with them (no phone number on their website)?

I know that the question is not directly related to Logos as a company, but Rejoice Christian Software sells products that run on Logos. So I hope it is ok to post here. With Logos' big user group I thought maybe someone knows anything about this company.

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Matthew C Jones

Do this company still exist? And how can I come in touch with them (no phone number on their website)?

I can not directly answer your question because I just don't know the answer. I can tell you I ordered a Libronix compatible title from them last year and they never actually processed the order. My credit card was not charged and I received no communication from them. I quit buying from them after that. I don't even read their emails any more. I do know they typically have a limited stock of sale items and frequently run out. I just did not like the fact I got no communication about the incomplete transaction.

Hopefully your credit card was not charged. I doubt you get a response from attempts to communicate with them. Good luck.

William Gabriel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452180#Comment_452180

Do this company still exist? And how can I come in touch with them (no phone number on their website)?

I can not directly answer your question because I just don't know the answer. I can tell you I ordered a Libronix compatible title from them last year and they never actually processed the order. My credit card was not charged and I received no communication from them. I quit buying from them after that. I don't even read their emails any more. I do know they typically have a limited stock of sale items and frequently run out. I just did not like the fact I got no communication about the incomplete transaction.

Hopefully your credit card was not charged. I doubt you get a response from attempts to communicate with them. Good luck.

Same deal here. Someone pointed me to them as a place for inexpensive Logos resources. I made an order, didn't hear from them for a month, then they canceled my order saying they had run out.

After that I unsubscribed from their email list and have never tried buying anything from them again.

I have been thankful for Logos' seamless, cloud-based order and fulfillment system, even if it's at a premium. I find the certainty worth it.

Mark Smith

And how can I come in touch with them (no phone number on their website)

rejoice @ rejoicesoftware dot com

I have had some very slow but not any no service from them. It has been since June that I've bought anything from them, but that took a couple of months to fill. I suspect when they lost the right to sell Logos stuff that forced attention elsewhere and the software business may be taking a back seat.

HJ. van der Wal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452181#Comment_452181

I can't remember ordering anything from Rejoice since I started to use Logos 4. But I'm still on their email list and their last mail (november 2012) said that they had completed their move to a new location.

HJ. van der Wal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452180#Comment_452180

I can tell you I ordered a Libronix compatible title from them ... and they never actually processed the order. My credit card was not charged and I received no communication from them. I quit buying from them after that.

This has been my experience with Logos SA. I ordered the Afrikaans Library when they announced that they would stop their business activities in South Africa, but I received no communication from them. And worse still, none of the Afrikaans Libronix titles are offered for sale on the Logos (Bellingham) site!

ChelseaFC

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452188#Comment_452188

This is my understanding about the move. They are slow in responding although I haven't ordered anything since mid-last year. I hope you hear something soon.

David Wilson

They were once a good source for Libronix (Logos 3) third party CDs that were not at that time available directy from Logos.

There were several third party sources supplying titles that you could not get from Bellingham. There are quite a few titles formerly available through such sources that Logos does not currently list as available for sale (including the Logos S.A. Afrikaans titles as another poster pointed out!)

Always seemed like a small operation (maybe even only a part time business ?) and very slow to fulfil orders and respond to emails.

Nevertheless they always came through and would advise when they were out of stock (even if they did not "discover" that until many weeks after the order was placed) and would never charge for anything they could not or did not send.

Have not received any of their newsletter emails for several months now so they may be going through some difficulties (can happen to a small operation if a key player gets sick or injured).

Obviously their Logos related business is in major decline as there are no new Logos 3 (or 2) CDs likely to be made and a rapidly diminishing market for anything in Logos 3 format.

ELA

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452292#Comment_452292

It's more than a year ago I last ordered anything from them. During the last 5 years I have bought several books either considerably cheaper than from Logos - or unavailable from Logos.

I always had excellent service - even to Europe. A couple of times it took a little longer - and I got an email that they were having some personal problems in their church. I got the understanding that it was a family-run business.

However, I haven't received their newsletter for a long time. They may have closed down or moved. I would try again a little later. To me they seemed to be very good people.

Robert Harner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452332#Comment_452332

my last email from them was 06/29/12. I ordered what looked like a very good Theology Collection CD (it was not for Logos) - Ships in July/August it said, and some DVDs. Never heard from them again. Credit card not charged. The regular emails suddenly stopped. Their site is still up but . . .

Schezic

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452394#Comment_452394

my last email from them was 06/29/12. I ordered what looked like a very good Theology Collection CD (it was not for Logos) - Ships in July/August it said, and some DVDs. Never heard from them again. Credit card not charged. The regular emails suddenly stopped. Their site is still up but . . .

I ordered Tyndale Commentaries from them last month. Took 10 days but I received the product.

Beloved Amodeo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452396#Comment_452396

My experience with this company has been favorable. However, my last email from them was 7/12. My purchases with said company have been handled expeditiously.

I have thus floated a trial email balloon. I will report back to this OP with any helpful info.

DAL

They have moved and changed location, so I guess they are still getting settled. Last email from them was in November 2012 offering some 50% off of some ESV leather Bibles as inventory clearance; other than that, no more emails from them since then. Too bad because I want to buy the AMG Essentials library from them. It's cheap and I'm only buying it because I want the NT Word Study Dictionary and the sermon starter books. I already have the OT dictionary. Anyway, I hope they settle soon because they do offer some really good deals. I also want Grudem's systematic theology for $19 bucks - great resource!

Bernard GRAESSEL

I purchased DVD about 309 dollars in august 2012....received just a short mail saying that they"forgot to send" but sin-ce that i understood they moved...

and despite sending few mails, I received no answer and the bank account has been withdrawn!!!!!

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464311#Comment_464311

I suppose this adds nothing, but I too have not received any promotional emails from them since last year. I used to get about 2 per week.

I have purchased from them before and always had quick service and no issues. It has been over a year since I bought anything there, however.

Website is still up as of this post. Strange...

Jerry

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464311#Comment_464311

Hi Bernard .... welcome to the forums.

Don't know what to say. If you google 'rejoice christian software' you'll notice many unhappy customers (showmelocal site, and scambook).

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464338#Comment_464338

Website is still up as of this post. Strange.

This does not necessarily mean it is being monitored and in business. There was once another website that sold Christian software, Bits & Bytes. The website was still up advertising Libronix 3 and WordSearch 4 stuff after Logos 4 had been out for a while. Nothing got updated and no emails were answered but the website remained. Remnants of good days gone by.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464432#Comment_464432

Their website has not had any "news" since 2011, and the copyright message at the bottom still says 2011. Most places update the copyright date to the current year.

There is a phone number listed for them on ShowMeLocal: (407)322-9436. But one of the reviewers there said the phone number doesn't work.

Their website "whois" report on DomainTools shows that the administrative contact for the site is Michael White, rejoicecs@aol.com. Phone number as above. Fax: 407-324-7681.

I'm guessing they are struggling financially and not keeping up with what little business is still coming in, and are probably going out of business soon if not already. It can take a while to shut down a business. That their website is still up is probably just due to the fact that it's been paid for through 2015.

I had a web hosting company that did the same thing to me. Their service was non-existent, so I had switched my hosting to somewhere else. Yet they were still automatically charging my credit card every month, and there was no way to contact them. They were not answering emails or phone. I had to resort to getting my credit card company involved to cancel the auto payments.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464444#Comment_464444

Maybe Michael keeled over and no one noticed (no offence but things happen).

Then his business just keeps going collecting orders, paypals, etc. There seems to be quite a number of orders not shipped.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464474#Comment_464474

Maybe Michael keeled over and no one noticed (no offence but things happen).

Somebody is still listing under his eBay account.

Mike Childs

I certainly hate to hear that they may be going out of business. I have bought a number of Logos / Libronix products from them over the years at great prices. I will miss them if they are out of business.

Most of my library has been bought direct from Logos, but there are times that Rejoice has had a much better price. They helped me build my Logos library. I appreciate them.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464508#Comment_464508

I certainly hate to hear that they may be going out of business. I have bought a number of Logos / Libronix products from them over the years at great prices. I will miss them if they are out of business.

Most of my library has been bought direct from Logos, but there are times that Rejoice has had a much better price. They helped me build my Logos library. I appreciate them.

Maybe that's why they went out of business. Perhaps their bargain prices were not a sustainable business model. Logos prices do seem too high sometimes, but they know what it takes to afford to keep in business, and I would like to see them stay in business as long as I'm alive and still able to use my computer.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464513#Comment_464513

I would like to see them stay in business as long as I'm alive and still able to use my computer

I agree with that, and I have spent thousands of dollars with Logos over the years. And I will continue to do so.

However, I am also grateful for Rejoice Christian Software. They helped me build my library, and that, in turn, led me to buy additional products from Logos. I assume that what I bought from Rejoice to some degree profited Logos, too. The company that produced a Logos compatible CD obviously paid for the right to produce a Logos compatible cd. Seems like a win / win to me.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464477#Comment_464477

Maybe Michael keeled over and no one noticed (no offence but things happen).

Somebody is still listing under his eBay account.

On further investigation the eBay account appears to have been abandoned. There are 17 negative feedbacks dating back to November. It is a sad ending to a fine seller.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464523#Comment_464523

The company that produced a Logos compatible CD obviously paid for the right to produce a Logos compatible cd. Seems like a win / win to me.

Should be, but maybe Rejoice didn't charge enough of a mark-up over what Logos was charging them. They might still have been able to make a nice deal for users, but if Logos's own margins are tight enough, it would be hard for a third party to undercut them and stay in business. Which leads me to suspect that Logos is not in fact overcharging us. And Rejoice and others like them probably don't really have an affordable way to do what they were doing. It's too bad, but that's how business works.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464530#Comment_464530

I'm thinking maybe someone indeed passed away. The negatives on eBay run the gamut of products and are not exclusively software. It looks like the business ramrod is gone and the survivors don't know anything about running the business.

Hope I'm wrong but a guy with 19,000+ positives does not get 17 negatives all at once unless something happened.

David Carter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464529#Comment_464529

Maybe Michael keeled over and no one noticed (no offence but things happen).

Somebody is still listing under his eBay account.

On further investigation the eBay account appears to have been abandoned. There are 17 negative feedbacks dating back to November. It is a sad ending to a fine seller.

This is odd - the eBay account I associate as being operated by Rejoice has 48 positive reviews for this month and is definitely not abandoned

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464534#Comment_464534

This is odd - the eBay account I associate as being operated by Rejoice has 48 positive reviews for this month and is definitely not abandoned

You are right. I don't know what I clicked on but I now see 48 positives since January 20th. The 17 negatives ended around the 20th. So maybe, and hopefully, the bad stretch was only a temporary hiccup while they finished relocating. I once lost internet access for 3 weeks during an ice storm that took down all the power lines in eastern Oklahoma (2001?) I doubt they had an ice storm in Florida.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464530#Comment_464530

it would be hard for a third party to undercut them and stay in business. Which leads me to suspect that Logos is not in fact overcharging us.

I certainly was not implying that Logos is overcharging. I was just thankful for the bargains that Rejoice provided me on resources like Martin Luther's Works and Jame Boice's commentaries.

I always buy from Logos first, all things being equal, because I want to keep Logos in business. But sometimes Rejoice has had Logos products no longer sold by Logos at the time I purchased them. And sometimes the price was considerably better, and I don't want me to go out of business either. [;)]

I would hesitate to accuse Rejoice of poor business practices. After all, they have stayed in business for a number of years now. And that in a very bad recession that is putting lots of small businesses out of business. We don't know the circumstances of what may be happening with Rejoice, and have no basis to judge their business skill.. I don't know for certain that they are out of business. As Mark Twain once said, "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." So maybe we should wait and see.

However, I remain thankful to Rejoice for years of bargains, many of them in the Logos format. I am also extremely thankful to the Logos for making the best Bible software in the world.

I think that is more than enough for me to say about that.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464821#Comment_464821

I would hesitate to accuse Rejoice of poor business practices. After all, they have stayed in business for a number of years now. And that in a very bad recession that is putting lots of small businesses out of business. We don't know the circumstances of what may be happening with Rejoice, and have no basis to judge their business skill.. I don't know for certain that they are out of business. As Mark Twain once said, "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." So maybe we should wait and see.

However, I remain thankful to Rejoice for years of bargains, many of them in the Logos format. I am also extremely thankful to the Logos for making the best Bible software in the world.

[Y]

I emailed Michael (don't know him--used the company email address) a link to this thread. If he responds, we'll know....

Spurgeon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464954#Comment_464954

Any updates? Made a purchase about a year ago but never arrived. Tried reaching out several times without any response. Got an email a while back saying they were in the process of moving and so response is lagging. Really not sure what's going on over there.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471354#Comment_471354

Any updates? Made a purchase about a year ago but never arrived. Tried reaching out several times without any response.

No. But he is still selling on eBay. I just don't know.

John

Do this company still exist? And how can I come in touch with them (no phone number on their website)?

The website is still there taking orders. But it looks like CBD has better pricing on older Libronix titles. At CBD R.C. Sprouls Library for example is 81% off (14.99).

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/464530#Comment_464530

Which leads me to suspect that Logos is not in fact overcharging us.

Yes, they are overcharging. The business model is essentially to scan or electronically convert existing works (that Logos did not create), and then to resell electronic copies, of which there is essentially no cost to duplicate ... at the same price as a retail printed copy which involves cost to reproduce and distribute.

The only costs which Logos has to absorb which traditional publishing companies do not have is the maintenance of the decrypting/viewer software (which in the past they claimed would always be given away free, but now that issue has become very muddy), which I might add they do an absolutely terrible job at. It is the buggiest and most crash-prone software I have ever seen.

The only time you get a good deal from Logos is if you buy a large package that happens to be on sale, and even then you have to take into consideration that in orderto get that deal, you must agree to buy a bunch of useless and practically worthless titles that they have bundled in with the titles you really wanted.

On judgment day I personally wouldn't want to be a publishing company executive who charged Christians $30, $40, or $50 to "unlock" a Bible.

The software company being discussed was not competition to Logos. They were simply reselling retail packages which were likely closed out and discontinued when Logos eliminated all of their third party publishers.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471464#Comment_471464

Which leads me to suspect that Logos is not in fact overcharging us.

Yes, they are overcharging. The business model is essentially to scan or electronically convert existing works (that Logos did not create), and then to resell electronic copies, of which there is essentially no cost to duplicate ... at the same price as a retail printed copy which involves cost to reproduce and distribute.

The only costs which Logos has to absorb which traditional publishing companies do not have is the maintenance of the decrypting/viewer software (which in the past they claimed would always be given away free, but now that issue has become very muddy), which I might add they do an absolutely terrible job at. It is the buggiest and most crash-prone software I have ever seen.

The only time you get a good deal from Logos is if you buy a large package that happens to be on sale, and even then you have to take into consideration that in orderto get that deal, you must agree to buy a bunch of useless and practically worthless titles that they have bundled in with the titles you really wanted.

On judgment day I personally wouldn't want to be a publishing company executive who charged Christians $30, $40, or $50 to "unlock" a Bible.

The software company being discussed was not competition to Logos. They were simply reselling retail packages which were likely closed out and discontinued when Logos eliminated all of their third party publishers.

Peace to you, John! and .... Always Joy in the Lord! *smile*

I greet you as a Christian Brother and urge you to try to be a little more careful with your words that our "ministry be not blamed"! I think with the many thousands of persons viewing these Logos Forums and reading the many posts, it is important for all of us to "speak" positively, with our words properly seasoned. I definitely believe that this also is a "ministry" that God has entrusted to His Believers. Wouldn't it be great if the world said of us as in some respects it did with the early Christians, "Behold how they love one another."!!!

Truly do I regret coming across here as judgmental; however, this last post of your comes across to me as venomous rather than seasoned with salt. It comes across to me vindictive rather than helpful to anybody. I know that for a long time now you have despised the Logos Bible Software Organisation -- but again - another "however"(!) ... we followers of Jesus need the Holy Spirit of God to help us speak the truth in love .... so I very gently urge you to please just leave some of your bitter feelings toward Logos alone ..... and make whatever point you need to make without being nasty. It's truly unfortunate that the situation got to where it is; but, at least let us get past it.

I am a great Logos fan and have been for 20 years this spring! You are most definitely NOT a Logos fan. Could we please just leave it like that, John?

God is most certainly going to handle Judgment Day the way He wants to, eh???

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471464#Comment_471464

On judgment day I personally wouldn't want to be a publishing company executive who charged Christians $30, $40, or $50 to "unlock" a Bible.

The last time I looked at the Bibles available in Logos they all seemed to be $10 each. I don't know what special Bibles you have been looking at. The NIV likes to charge an extra $10 above what others charge. I'd hate to be them on Judgement Day. [:|] Also, all those Bible book stores that charge $70 to $120 for those study Bibles are really gonna get it! [6]

Seriously, does your church get free electricity from the power company? I'd hate to be them on Judgement Day.....

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471478#Comment_471478

On judgment day I personally wouldn't want to be a publishing company executive who charged Christians $30, $40, or $50 to "unlock" a Bible.

The last time I looked at the Bibles available in Logos they all seemed to be $10 each. I don't know what special Bibles you have been looking at. The NIV likes to charge an extra $10 above what others charge. I'd hate to be them on Judgement Day. Also, all those Bible book stores that charge $70 to $120 for those study Bibles are really gonna get it!

Seriously, does your church get free electricity from the power company? I'd hate to be them on Judgement Day.....

While I personally believe judgement day will be about far different things then the career I hold I personally wouldn't mind being a software developer on judgement day that enriched people's Bible Studies as much as Logos has enriched mine.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471478#Comment_471478

Also, all those Bible book stores that charge $70 to $120 for those study Bibles are really gonna get it!

Seriously, does your church get free electricity from the power company? I'd hate to be them on Judgement Day.....

The Printed Bibles in bookstores cost money to print, money to store, money to transport, and money to retail to customers.

Until the stores have a "replicator" like the ones on star trek, where they can reproduce a printed book out of thin air, your analogy is one of apples to oranges.

Same with the power company. The power company cannot generate 1000 kilowatts of power, and then make 100 million copies of it at no cost. If they could, the public and likely the government would not allow them to continue to charge the same rates as they had previously.

None of the Biblical authors attempted to profit and become wealthy from copyrights on their work.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471487#Comment_471487

Also, all those Bible book stores that charge $70 to $120 for those study Bibles are really gonna get it!

Seriously, does your church get free electricity from the power company? I'd hate to be them on Judgement Day.....

The Printed Bibles in bookstores cost money to print, money to store, money to transport, and money to retail to customers. Until the stores have a "replicator" like the ones on star trek, where they can reproduce a printed book out of thin air, your analogy is one of apples to oranges. Same with the power company. The power company cannot generate 1000 kilowatts of power, and then make 100 million copies of it at no cost. If they could, the public and likely the government would not allow them to continue to charge the same rates as they had previously. None of the Biblical authors attempted to profit and become wealthy from copyrights on their work.

My understanding is that the printing costs are a relatively minor part of the cost of a book. I'm certainly no expert, though. however what I am pretty certain of is that a bookshelf in the store costs a lot less then servers and redundant systems. and a store clerk receives a smaller paycheck then a server maintainer. Also, once a book is in your hand there is no responsibility on the part of the publisher to make sure the book continues to work on constantly updated systems. I also doubt the publisher receives nearly as many technical support calls as Logos does.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471476#Comment_471476

Truly do I regret coming across here as judgmental; however, this last post of your comes across to me as venomous rather than seasoned with salt. It comes across to me vindictive rather than helpful to anybody.

Sorry Charles but I just cannot seem to get to that place of political correctness and sensitivity where you live. I have something within me that always wants to tell the truth. I guess me and John the Baptist have something in common. If you had been there to advise him, he might have avoided prison and martyrdom. But like the venomous guy he was, he insisted on offending people by telling them the truth [Y]

Not so long ago, God used the printing press to make his word freely available to all men. Today men are using copyright laws to lock it up again. If you pay their price, an arbitrarily set price that in no way reflects the costs of reproduction, they will unlock it for you.

Men using their copyright "rights" have eliminated the 1984 NIV Bible, which was the most readable and clear English Bible ever produced. It had close to a 70% market share among evangelicals. Overnight it disappeared. It is the same legal system which is being used to do harm to the Bible which provides Logos its profits. Only in the minds of men can a person or company "own" a Bible translation. Or any other theological work which they did not author for that matter.

It is interesting to me Charles that your appeal is to the scriptures in your defense of Logos (and attack against me). But in reality the scripture in no way supports what Logos is doing. Period. The Bible teaches equity. Not exploitation of technology to profit from your "brethren". Logos has its defense in the laws of man, not in the practice of the church. And if you ask them, they will not hide this fact. They will readily admit that they are a "for-profit" business. They are not a charity and they certainly are not a Christian Ministry. If you want to see Bible software produced by someone who understands Christian ministry, check out eSword. Logos is NOT.

Crossway has done the right thing in making the ESV translation a free download. And the ESV study Bible is free to use online. Logos wants $10 for the "free" ESV Bible and $50 for the "free" study Bible. Many other new translations are following this path. I am sure Logos will continue to charge for them too.

Freely you have received; freely give. - Matthew 10:8

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471488#Comment_471488

however what I am pretty certain of is that a bookshelf in the store costs a lot less then servers and redundant systems. and a store clerk receives a smaller paycheck then a server maintainer. Also, once a book is in your hand there is no responsibility on the part of the publisher to make sure the book continues to work on constantly updated systems. I also doubt the publisher receives nearly as many technical support calls as Logos does.

Your analysis fails to take into account the scale of both systems. You might be correct that one server and one "server maintainer" as you put it, might be comparable to "a" store with "a" bookshelf with "a" book. But if you put one of those bookstores in every city of every state, the costs multiply very quickly. Suddenly you are paying rent for retail space, hiring managers, advertising, warehousing, carrying the cost of inventory, utilities, and thousands of other items.

There really is no debating it ... ebooks are much cheaper to produce and market than printed books. In fact these days most printed books are already produced electronically. Distributing them over the internet adds little to the cost of developement. The only real question is, where does all the savings go? Is it passed onto the consumer, or does it become additional profit for the publisher?

Amazon (a secular for-profit company) is selling the ebooks cheaper than the printed books. Sometimes 50% or below. There is no reason that an electronic copy of the ESV study Bible should cost the exact same price as the hardcover. The hardcover probably costs at least $15 to print, and retails for $50. The Logos version costs a few pennies to store on a server to be downloaded. But what will you pay for it? Unfortunately, the answer to that question is "what will the market bear?". Obviously someone thought the market might balk if it was set higher than the retail price of the real book. So there you have it. $49.99

Amazon sells the hardcover ESV Study Bible for $28. That's over $20 cheaper than Logos sells its unlock code for the free text.

The Kindle edition of the ESV Study Bible by the way: $9.90. $40 cheaper than Logos.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471500#Comment_471500

On 1 Nov 2012, Bob Pritchett (CEO) included profit margin insight => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58026/413124.aspx#413124

He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.

What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?

For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.

Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.

But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.

So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)

I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)

I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.

(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)

-- Bob

Thankful for many free Logos Bible Software upgrades. For Logos 5 and 4 on Mac OS X, wiki has a list that goes back to Oct 2009 => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Release_Notes_and_History

Thankful for 365 free ebooks on Vyrso.com since Thanksgiving 2011, which is 356 complete eBooks and 9 Samplers. Thankful for Vyrso eBooks being searchable in Logos 5 and 4.

Thankful for many free Logos resources => http://www.logos.com/products/search?start=0&sort=pricelo&pageSize=30 that includes Lexham English Bible and Greek New Testament: SBL Edition along with Perseus Collections

Thankful for several large purchase sales, which included resources that were later found to contain gems.

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions: have learned a lot about Logos Bible Software plus have a lot to learn: e.g. Logos Hebrew Morphology.

Thankful for a profitable (Income - Expenses = Profit) reply by Bob Pritchett on 2 Nov 2012 => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58162/414162.aspx#414162

Keep Smiling [:)]

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471503#Comment_471503

Actually John - for one so critical, you certainly don't have all your facts in order. The ESV is available for free from crossway for the Kindle.

Never the less. If you have so much disdain for Logos, kindly return to your kindle.

To do otherwise indicates to the rest of us that you're trolling for emotional response. Pretty sure that is against the rules of the forums here.

Romans 14:19 my friend

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471506#Comment_471506

Actually John - for one so critical, you certainly don't have all your facts in order. The ESV is available for free from crossway for the Kindle.

Never the less. If you have so much disdain for Logos, kindly return to your kindle.

To do otherwise indicates to the rest of us that you're trolling for emotional response. Pretty sure that is against the rules of the forums here.

Romans 14:19 my friend

You are mistaken.

The ESV Bible for Kindle is free.

The ESV Study Bible for Kindle is $9.90.

See that? In your haste to make someone else look dumb, you made yourself look dumb [:D]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471509#Comment_471509

You are mistaken.

The ESV Bible for Kindle is free.

The ESV Study Bible for Kindle is $9.90.

See that? In your haste to make someone else look dumb, you made yourself look dumb

I can hardly believe you just wrote that! You did not read what abondservant wrote; "ESV for Kindle is free. "

You confirmed the accuracy of what he said and in your own haste to make him look dumb, you confirmed you can actually write a dumber post than you thought he wrote! Go back and reread his post, John. I'm truly amazed.[:|]

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471511#Comment_471511

You are mistaken.

The ESV Bible for Kindle is free.

The ESV Study Bible for Kindle is $9.90.

See that? In your haste to make someone else look dumb, you made yourself look dumb

I can hardly believe you just wrote that! You did not read what abondservant wrote; "ESV for Kindle is free. "

You confirmed the accuracy of what he said and in your own haste to make him look dumb, you confirmed you can actually write a dumber post than you thought he wrote! Go back and reread his post, John. I'm truly amazed.

I am becoming more amazed by the minute at how many people on here cannot read. Is it really so difficult to see the difference between "ESV Bible" and "ESV Study Bible"? My post (which abondservant replied to) did not mention the "ESV Bible" for Kindle, nor the fact that it is free. He presumed that I was referring to the free one, and that I was mistaken about the price. Do I really need to explain this? Perhaps YOU should have carefully read the posts before telling me to reread someone elses post. You have now taken the lead for the dumb and dumber contest [Y]

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471512#Comment_471512

Further interaction with John I'm afraid would simply be feeding the trolls.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471514#Comment_471514

Further interaction with John I'm afraid would simply be feeding the trolls.

Interesting psychological projection when people who act like trolls feel the need to place the label on someone else.

Grow up please.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471503#Comment_471503

however what I am pretty certain of is that a bookshelf in the store costs a lot less then servers and redundant systems. and a store clerk receives a smaller paycheck then a server maintainer. Also, once a book is in your hand there is no responsibility on the part of the publisher to make sure the book continues to work on constantly updated systems. I also doubt the publisher receives nearly as many technical support calls as Logos does.

I am looking forward to using the Bible Software you develop when you start your new competing Bible software company. It will be very interesting to see what product you will be able to produce and offer for pennies per book once you guit your job, hire a development team, go a year or two seeing no profit, then hire a marketing team to advertise your product so you can get the thousands of customers who will be needed in order to turn a profit (assuming the publishers are on board). Then I will be interested to see how long you will be able to sustain the model without going out of business.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471512#Comment_471512

Rub-a Dub Dub
Three men in a tub

Nothing he said was false. And by your own admission the Study Bible is not $30, $40, or $50.

I see you still use Libronix 3. Could it just be you are angry with Logos because you won't pay the price for Logos 4 or Logos 5? Aesop's fable of the Fox & The Grapes ends with, "They are probably sour anyway."

My experience with Logos is more like the hidden treasure. I sold all that had and bought over 10,000 books. I think it is great. I would gladly pay $40 for a Japanese Bible in Logos.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471612#Comment_471612

Well, since I'm a Libronix lover (I just don't understand why people can't see the obvious!), and I'm periodically troll-ish (whatever that is; it seems to be specific to the writer), I agree with John's technical points. Like others on the forum, I used to work in retail and specifically in demographic sku analysis.

Believe you me, if an electronic reseller can get past the internet site customer build, software reader, and publisher relationships (all 3 a big challenge), then they're home free. This is due primarily to physical stores having only their own nearby customer base (often with competitors) to work the sales probability equation. And with books that are very finicky (popular today, who cares tomorrow), it's a major markdown, re-distribute, etc problem.

The only thing that can overcome the problem of course is the markup. So when you see eReader re-sellers using hardcopy markups, then you have to figure they're marketing beyond the literal book (e.g. software features, other parallel products, etc). The books are financing everything else.

But that IS a business model and it's ALSO a customer decision. The contra-argument to the fairness of all of this, of course, is the eReader people making the books effectively non-redistributable. It's this latter part that I would grab my mote and head for the other person's eye; whatever that is spiritual that you might learn from your eBook, you can't happily share (without the other person joining the club and repeating the error).

Now ESV, I don't understand John's comment; I must be blind regarding the Kindle quote. Crossway's long made the file free for download for personal use as had NET (and unlike the others). So if you have a PC you can read either for free (in addition to the online versions). I have both in my own personal software for the post-modern view, and regularly use neither (YLT has personality! As does Darby's notes.).

But AGAIN, I must agree with John. If the publishers of the New New Testament don't offer a FREE copy (for me of course), then they're consciously risky peoples souls for the almight mammon. (You DO know the NNT, as it's popularly referred to, has newly discovered texts! That means YOUR New Testament does NOT. Good luck trying to chat with Saint Peter in an intelligent way.)