LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic

Another Solution would be:

1. remove Verbum, but offer Catholic base packages, and Catholic WorkSpace Layouts.

( IE this is equiv to a Catholic Mod to the neuteral Logos Platform)

This also places the Logos platform back as a 'non-denominational' software platform.

Rosie Perera

Luigi, give it up. Why do you care? Why do you feel so personally injured by Logos's decision to market a particular rebranded version of their mainstay product for Catholics, who have been less reached by the product in the past than Protestants? You're sounding an awful lot like a 5-year-old child crying "It's no fair!" to his mother because his sibling got to play with his favorite toy, when there are still hundreds of other awesome toys to play with in the toy chest. Go enjoy using Logos and stop worrying about how it is sold to this or that market segment.

It is Logos's decision, they made it for business reasons, and they are not going to change it based on one individual's repetitive griping about it. Bob has already answered your concerns and he is not interested in changing in the ways you have suggested, or in responding to you again.

Verbum was created for practical reasons in response to feedback from both Catholic and protestant users. We may or may not segment other content based on market size and demand. But even these segments cross lines -- there are books that are included in both the Logos and Verbum base packages. And users of each who want resources sold with the other.

You are not being penalized or restricted or charged more in any way by using the main product called Logos, or by the newer Catholic customers having it branded Verbum for them.

So just give it a rest. You are sounding like a broken record, and we're all getting sick of this topic.

Cross Posted as Luigi shut down and moved his thread.

Luigi: First, I have responded to you several times.

Next: I think the whole thing is ridiculas.

Next: I believe your responses now are dishonest. When you first posted ( yes, I have read them all) as distasteful as it was, you were at least honest, now, you cover your real intentions with all sorts of "straw man " arguments, thats what I think.

You whole reasoning in your first post was that Catholic materials needed warning labels because you believe them to be dangerous , especially to new believers. I responded to those posts, you did not reply.

I find the whole thing quite distasteful, just to be honest with you.

Next: You keep speaking of Logos being hijacked.

Straw man argument.

The only person /persons that could complain about Logos being hijacked would be the owners of what had been hijacked.

Logos is not complaining about Logos being hijacked.

Logos software is a company, they have every right to do whatever they wish with thier product.

You, as a customer have every right to buy it or, not buy it.

If you don't like the way Logos is being managed , write a letter to the owner, call him, his number is listed.

I don't think you will though because the real issue you have is with Catholics and Catholic Materials. You believe they should be labeled as false doctrine, you want warning labels placed on them as if they are poison. This is why you hate Verbum, for you feel Catholic is getting a leg up on protestant denominationalism, through Logos. Thus, your real motivation and purpose is to do all you can to combat Catholic growth in any way you can.

In my humble opinion, this is not the place for Chick Track mentalities or discussion of same.

Again, Logos is a company, they have the freedom to market as they please.

I have no issue at all with Catholic branding, with Jewish branding, Pentecostal etc.

What we have now is two "overarching" groups represented, those two "groups" are:

1. Protestants - huge libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

2. Catholic- Huge Libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

1a. Logos standard has resources from all over the protestant experience and it's history, including Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non-Denominational, generally all Evangelical disciplines.

2b. Catholic/Verbum- Libraries of resources covering/of special interest to: Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and other disciplines.

Note: Looks to me like Logos is simply trying to cover the known Christian market as it is normally seen , trying to meet the "needs" of those who will/would be buying thier products.

Opinion:

Logos is doing well to do so, Logos is looking to meet the needs of it's user base and looking to expand that user base- Good business plan.

Logos is a company , will grow or die based on it's business decisions.

No one here has a right to make those business decisions for Logos for no one here is willing to take the risks, make the investments Logos is willing to make.

Logos has many employees, they have families , those families need to pay bills, Logos has to grow in order to take care of it's employee base.

Logos has to deal with Publishers , a very, very difficult situation these days, very confused environment , much like Music Industry before iTunes changed everything. Logos has to respond to the Publisher environment, their needs, demands in order to get those resources, this , in all likelihood, plays a major role in Logos Marketing decisions.

Logos can now, for the first time, in reality, truly make a claim to being non-denominational, for not only do they have some catholic resources available in a protestant format, but they now have a catholic format, thus serving both the Evangelical/Protestant disciplines AND the Catholic Disciplines.

I have never complained about the Protestant Software and Libraries, I use them.

I am very blessed to now have the Catholic Software and Libraries.

Again Luigi: I find the whole thing distasteful , now dishonest. If You don't want the catholic resources, don't buy them.

You have no use for Verbum, don't buy it.

You have all the access you want to Protestant Software and Libraries.

If Verbum is the Catholic version, then Logos Standard is the Protestant version.

Logos software "systems" is a computer platform to access and use the Logos library system.

Logos is the best way to access Evangelical Protestant library resources.

Verbum is the best way to access Catholic Library resources.

The Catholic Library system "is" somewhat different ( be better when finished ) because the tagging to Catechisms/Lectionaries effects how we access materials and, catholics also have some different key-words we use in "subject" searches. We also have some different Biblical books. We often use parts of history "some" evangelicals don't use or use as often. We use a lot of Greek and Latin words/word groups/phrases that have to be tagged/accounted for that "some" evangelicals would have no interest in.

I could give you probably another dozen or so reasons why Verbum IS NOT just Logos "rebranded" as you like to say so often. There has to be an enormous amount of coding done in Verbum that is different than the Evangelical/Protestant version called Logos .

Ok, you asked, you have my answer.

Personally think I/we should all just quit responding to these threads because the real and core issue is your being Anti-Catholic , wanting all Catholic materials branded with warning labels as "dangerous" and making uneducated biased statements like : catholic lay people don't read and study the Bible as much, don't know the faith etc. etc.

Again, I find your whole reason for all of this to be most distasteful, thus I will be praying for your enlightenment.

Hope that covers everything for you in a succinct way.

Pray you find Grace and Peace in Christ Jesus.

KJ Niblett

Luigi, give it up. Why do you care? Why do you feel so personally injured by Logos's decision to market a particular rebranded version of their mainstay product for Catholics, who have been less reached by the product in the past than Protestants? You're sounding an awful lot like a 5-year-old child crying "It's no fair!" to his mother because his sibling got to play with his favorite toy, when there are still hundreds of other awesome toys to play with in the toy chest. Go enjoy using Logos and stop worrying about how it is sold to this or that market segment.

It is Logos's decision, they made it for business reasons, and they are not going to change it based on one individual's repetitive griping about it. Bob has already answered your concerns and he is not interested in changing in the ways you have suggested, or in responding to you again.

You are not being penalized or restricted or charged more in any way
by using the main product called Logos, or by the newer Catholic
customers having it branded Verbum for them.

So just give it a rest. You are sounding like a broken record, and we're all getting sick of this topic.

Well Said!!!

Logos does this because there are millions of Catholics and Logos wants their business. It's ultimately about making more money, which the Catholic market undoubtedly brings in. There is certainly pros and cons to this. However, I find it strange that Logos and it's leadership explicitly disagree with Catholic dogma but have created a Catholic product.

It's one thing to provide Catholic-based resources to study, it's another to purposely make a product solely for Catholics to use to advance their erroneous theology.

One more thing, I'm not saying that Logos needs to stay theologically neutral. That's impossible. There needs to be a line. Logos has already demonstrated that they have such a line. This is why they would never create a product geared solely for Jehovah Witness' or Mormon's. However, that market is considerably smaller than the Catholic one. Hmmmm...

Luigi writes:

I am arguing:

Only Catholics get to re-brand and resell the Logos Platform as Catholic (Verbum) .
Thus highjacking the purpose of a 'non-denominational program' by re-advertising it as Catholic.

My Reply: Where did you get the idea that Catholics are "rebranding and reselling" the logos Platform Luigi?

Thats just nuts.

Logos-The Company has created a "different version" called Verbum, with lots of different coding/materials/resources etc. to meet the needs of the catholic/orthodox/anglican/lutheran community. Logos sells it, not Catholics.

Good grief.

I have voiced my opinion on Logo's Catholic Practicum product. This is a video series designed to help Catholic's study their own resources within their own "Catholic Scripture study methodology". This product blatantly encourages and advances Catholic theology.

Wes Saad

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

Best post yet Chris, best yet.

<Insert witty, angry, pointless response here>

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

I wish that were true. However, there are many Logos users who are sincerely concerned about this issue. Most wouldn't dare post their concerns though out of fear of being labeled intolerant. I used to be a Catholic. In fact, most of my family is still Catholic. I certainly don't hate Catholics. However, I firmly believe that their dogmas and theology have serious salvific implications.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

MJ. Smith

If you're someone who believes that Catholic tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Church of Christ tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Church of Christ theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Finnish Lutheran tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Finnish Lutheran theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Mennnonite tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Mennonite theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Congregational tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Congregational theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Presbyterian tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Presbyterian theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Episcopal tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Episcopal theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Assembly of God tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Assembly of God theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Methodist tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Methodist theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Unitarian tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Unitarian theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Quaker tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Quaker theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic Jewish tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Jewish theology.

I believe that covers my grandparents, parents, aunts & uncles, siblings and first cousins. Somehow, we can discuss religion with mutual respect. We don't need to wear name-tags with our denominational leanings. So please repeat for the 41, 000 denominations that Wikipedia refers to. I would hope it brings everyone a bit of humility.

From wikipedia: "Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a
comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of
Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian
denominations,
many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those
denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure
that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable."

PS.

a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

Correction: the product advances individual Catholics' Bible study which is quite a different matter - one that all people who believe the Bible is the Word of God should support especially if they believe in sola scriptura as that should imply that any serious and honest study will lead to the truth.

and MJ knocks one out of the park right over mid field!!!

Yea MJ.

Luigi, give it up. Why do you care?

Hi Rosie,

I dont quite know how to be more polite. Yes I have concerns about many denominations as might anyone else here, however this is not the forum to post about those concerns in a direct manner seeing this is a forum that is suppost to be for a denominationally neuteral software product.

This particular thread is designed so that a denominationally neuteral software product can be fair to all denominations in the sense of being a platform that can supply the needs of any denomination. Thus the platform itself does not need to be rebranded for catholics or any other denomination in an exclusive manner.

Please read the original post in light of the fact that I would raise this issue if it were any denomination (or at least I would agree that it seems to make the Logos platform and Logos business ideal of being not neuteral in an uncorrectable and inbalanced way as it stands). It just happens to be Catholic in this case.

I am not opposing denominational "mods" to the platform,
nor denominational "libraries or base packages"
seeing that if i did oppose these I too would be imposing my denominational slant on the Logos platform.

Next: I believe your responses now are dishonest

You whole reasoning in your first post was that Catholic materials needed warning labels because you believe them to be dangerous , especially to new believers. I responded to those posts, you did not reply.

Hi Charles,

Well perhaps you choose to take my words the wrong way on some occasions too. As I did quite fairly adjust my stance so that it was a denominationally neuteral feature (not just catholic). I appeal to you to give me credit for this at least.

Also, Yes I have concerns about other denominations including Catholicism. However my intentions are to raise awareness of critical denominational issues so that a wise denominationally netural software product can be used as a tool for those who are consious of those issues. Yes I raised specific quotes in order to highlight some problems as critical regarding catholicism (Yes I did this regardless of my thoughts that Logos should implement features to make itself support those consious of those iessue). However I had to make those issues relivant to Logos. So yes I have been a little crafty in this way. My conscience prompts me to admit this.

However, to Logos credit, (although we all likely knew how my intentions started and (to my credit changed to make sure the things I suggested supported Logos being denominationally neuteral) they still allowed my threads because of the fact that I have made them relivant to aid denominationally conscious bible study using Logos as the platform.

Next: You keep speaking of Logos being hijacked.

well to be fair to you I did use words that were intended to illustrate the issue, rather than a literal wording of what actually might of occured. I used "artistic license" as such. I guess it is kind of derogitave. my bad.

If Verbum is the Catholic version, then Logos Standard is the Protestant version

Thanks for acknowledging this.

Please understand, quite simply then You can understand my issue:

Logos Standard is not advertised (in words explicitly) as Protestant.
Verbum is advertised (in words explicitly) as Catholic.

Where did you get the idea that Catholics are "rebranding and reselling" the logos Platform Luigi?

Thats just nuts.

Hi Charles,

I dont want to agrovate you, but that is an example of what I meant on my previous post to you regarding taking my words the wrong way sometimes.

I am trying to respond without taking what people say offensively when they seem angry (and posting angrily back), or posting things out of context, or post things without referring to the full context, or progress of changes in stance as a thead progresses.

regards.