LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic

Cross Posted as Luigi shut down and moved his thread.

Luigi: First, I have responded to you several times.

Next: I think the whole thing is ridiculas.

Next: I believe your responses now are dishonest. When you first posted ( yes, I have read them all) as distasteful as it was, you were at least honest, now, you cover your real intentions with all sorts of "straw man " arguments, thats what I think.

You whole reasoning in your first post was that Catholic materials needed warning labels because you believe them to be dangerous , especially to new believers. I responded to those posts, you did not reply. 

I find the whole thing quite distasteful, just to be honest with you.

Next: You keep speaking of Logos being hijacked.

Straw man argument.

The only person /persons that could complain about Logos being hijacked would be the owners of what had been hijacked.

Logos is not complaining about Logos being hijacked.

Logos software is a company, they have every right to do whatever they wish with thier product.

You, as a customer have every right to buy it or, not buy it.

If you don't like the way Logos is being managed , write a letter to the owner, call him, his number is listed.

I don't think you will though because the real issue you have is with Catholics and Catholic Materials. You believe they should be labeled as false doctrine, you want warning labels placed on them as if they are poison. This is why you hate Verbum, for you feel Catholic is getting a leg up on protestant denominationalism, through Logos. Thus, your real motivation and purpose is to do all you can to combat Catholic growth in any way you can.

In my humble opinion, this is not the place for Chick Track mentalities or discussion of same.

Again, Logos is a company, they have the freedom to market as they please.

I have no issue at all with Catholic branding, with Jewish branding, Pentecostal etc.

Next:

What we have now is two "overarching" groups represented, those two "groups" are:

1. Protestants - huge libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

2. Catholic- Huge Libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

1a. Logos standard has resources from all over the protestant experience and it's history, including Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non-Denominational, generally all Evangelical disciplines.

2b. Catholic/Verbum- Libraries of resources covering/of special interest to:  Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and other disciplines.

Note: Looks to me like Logos is simply trying to cover the known Christian market as it is normally seen , trying to meet the "needs" of those who will/would be buying thier products.

Opinion:

Logos is doing well to do so, Logos is looking to meet the needs of it's user base and looking to expand that user base- Good business plan.

Logos is a company , will grow or die based on it's business decisions.

No one here has a right to make those business decisions for Logos for no one here is willing to take the risks, make the investments Logos is willing to make.

Logos has many employees, they have families , those families need to pay bills, Logos has to grow in order to take care of it's employee base.

Logos has to deal with Publishers , a very, very difficult situation these days, very confused environment , much like Music Industry before iTunes changed everything. Logos has to respond to the Publisher environment, their needs, demands in order to get those resources, this , in all likelihood, plays a major role in Logos Marketing decisions.

Logos can now, for the first time, in reality, truly make a claim to being non-denominational, for not only do they have some catholic resources available in a protestant format, but they now have a catholic format, thus serving both the Evangelical/Protestant disciplines AND the Catholic Disciplines.

I have never complained about the Protestant Software and Libraries, I use them.

I am very blessed to now have the Catholic Software and Libraries.

Again Luigi: I find the whole thing distasteful , now dishonest. If You don't want the catholic resources, don't buy them.

You have no use for Verbum, don't buy it.

You have all the access you want to Protestant Software and Libraries.

If Verbum is the Catholic version, then Logos Standard is the Protestant version.

Logos software "systems" is a computer platform to access and use the Logos library system.

Logos is the best way to access Evangelical Protestant library resources.

Verbum is the best way to access Catholic Library resources.

The Catholic Library system "is" somewhat different ( be better when finished ) because the tagging to Catechisms/Lectionaries effects how we access materials and, catholics also have some different key-words we use in "subject" searches. We also have some different Biblical books.  We often use parts of history "some" evangelicals don't use or use as often. We use a lot of Greek and Latin words/word groups/phrases that have to be tagged/accounted for that "some" evangelicals would have no interest in.

I could give you probably another dozen or so reasons why Verbum IS NOT just Logos "rebranded" as you like to say so often. There has to be an enormous amount of coding done in Verbum that is different than the Evangelical/Protestant version called Logos .

Ok, you asked, you have my answer.

Personally think I/we should all just quit responding to these threads because the real and core issue is your being Anti-Catholic , wanting all Catholic materials branded with warning labels as "dangerous" and making uneducated biased statements like : catholic lay people don't read and study the Bible as much, don't know the faith etc. etc. 

Again, I find your whole reason for all of this to be most distasteful, thus I will be praying for your enlightenment.

Hope that covers everything for you in a succinct way.

Pray you find Grace and Peace in Christ Jesus.

Logos does this because there are millions of Catholics and Logos wants their business. It's ultimately about making more money, which the Catholic market undoubtedly brings in. There is certainly pros and cons to this. However, I find it strange that Logos and it's leadership explicitly disagree with Catholic dogma but have created a Catholic product.

It's one thing to provide Catholic-based resources to study, it's another to purposely make a product solely for Catholics to use to advance their erroneous theology.

Luigi writes:

I am arguing:

• Only Catholics get to re-brand and resell the Logos Platform as Catholic  (Verbum) .
• Thus highjacking the purpose of a 'non-denominational program' by re-advertising it as Catholic.

My Reply: Where did you get the idea that Catholics are "rebranding and reselling" the logos Platform Luigi?

Thats just nuts.

Logos-The Company has created a "different version" called Verbum, with lots of different coding/materials/resources etc. to meet the needs of the catholic/orthodox/anglican/lutheran community. Logos sells it, not Catholics.

Good grief.

<Insert witty, angry, pointless response here>

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

Chris Roberts said:

<Insert witty, angry, pointless response here>

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

I wish that were true. However, there are many Logos users who are sincerely concerned about this issue. Most wouldn't dare post their concerns though out of fear of being labeled intolerant. I used to be a Catholic. In fact, most of my family is still Catholic. I certainly don't hate Catholics. However, I firmly believe that their dogmas and theology have serious salvific implications.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

and MJ knocks one out of the park right over mid field!!!

Yea MJ.

Luigi Sam said:

Also, Yes I have concerns about other denominations including Catholicism. However my intentions are to raise awareness of critical denominational issues so that a wise denominationally netural software product can be used as a tool for those who are consious of those issues.

"To Dream, the Impossible Dream..."

If there is one thing that we have learned in the 20th Century it is that where you stand and what you look for is quite influential about what you see.  Now, by bringing this up, by NO means am I advocating total relativeness or denying that we can know anything about things.  But it is a LOT easier to say "denominationally neutral" or "non-denominational" that to actually BE these things. The fact is that different people study the Bible for very different reasons.

Luigi Sam said:

Yes I raised specific quotes in order to highlight some problems as critical regarding catholicism (Yes I did this regardless of my thoughts that Logos should implement features to make itself support those consious of those iessue).

But I am not sure your actually read them.  As I, as admittedly an outsider, understand Roman Catholic theology, it is a very different thing to say that something has been seen in scriptures for a very long time and saying that it is required element of the deposit of faith that as dogma must be confessed.  With regards to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the quotation you gave was a statement of historical fact that people have talked that way (namely, that it is really hard to tell the story of Jesus without talking about Mary).  It was not a statement that Mary is the co-redemtrix who has a status equal to her Son.  Rome has never officially said that.  Even in proclaiming the Immaculate Conception, it is stated that this is so in order that she may bear Jesus.  I admit that I think this was an over-reach to close off this debate about when and how God made Mary able to bear Jesus...

But this very misreading of quotes is an example of what I am trying to say.  Unfortunately we all ask different questions of scripture and because of this have a real hard time understanding each other.  This makes it really hard to make a universal tool that would apply to all.

Speaking as a Lutheran, I would love it if there were clear, built in tools to help us to clearly show the distinction between Law (what God has given us to make the world work smoothly and should be used to help our neighbors, but which causes terrible consequences when we try to use it to control God) and Gospel (how God in Christ in the Cross is still actively coming to us - choosing the weak, the broken, the outsider, in short, you who are crushed by the Law, reconciling them to God in himself).  But many christians (oddly, from my perspective) do not think this life giving distinction which we find running throughout the whole bible and without which we fail to see much sense it in, is that important...  And so I make do with what we have.  Actually, I rejoice in what we have, having been trained before tools like this were available.  It takes out so much of the grunt work...

And I fail to see the problem.  It is obvious from looking at the base packages that "Logos" has an evangelical protestant slant...

SDG

Ken McGuire

Sogol said:

As long as it's a good business decision, I'm happy for Logos to make a customized product for just about any group that wants to study the Bible. They could even offer "Atheos" for non-believer Bible study.

[Y]

My reply started with talking about how "non-denominational" is a myth.  You have a standpoint.  It shapes what you see. I then attempted to read one of the quotes you found objectionable within the context of Roman Catholic theology as I understand it, trying to show that it didn't quite say what you think it does as an example of how our standpoints shape what we see.  I stated that I fail to see the problem in what Logos is doing in trying to provide tools for different communities. I concluded with a dream of something I WISH were somehow in some bible software programs, but I have never seen...

I suppose I should specifically say "invalid," about your concerns, but I thought it was obvious...

When you're posts have alot of spilling, grammer an usage mistackes it unfortunately maks it hard to sees what u mean.  Is sees no reason to argue further.

Luigi Sam said:

This thread is to raise the issue that the Logos platform is being advertised and sold as Catholic. (Verbum latin for "the word")

Are you sure your name isn't Peter Celini?  I have my suspicions since you seem to have a fixation on Catholic publications.  You might say you're Luigi Linguini-brain.

This forum has become polluted with this garbage.  Why can Luigi not take the hint that NOBODY cares about this issue except for him?  Please give it a rest.  

Doug said:

This forum has become polluted with this garbage.  Why can Luigi not take the hint that NOBODY cares about this issue except for him?  Please give it a rest.  

And another stated "and we're all getting sick of this topic."

But we are still posting. 

Michael Childs said:

SOLUTION PROPOSAL 3:  GET OVER IT!

[Y] [Y]

Luigi Sam said:

Your posts are welcome

Well your posts aren't. Do us all a favor and go away and take your bigoted views with you.

Luigi Sam said:

2. you didn't address the quote that I gave about Mary 

We do not need labels for any thing to do with "Mary" of Matthew 1:18 

Most everyone knows [or should know] that some hold her in very high regard. She suffered a lot so that her son could bring us salvation. 

Can you just imagine a seventy mile ride on a donkey while in your eighth month. And then delivering on the floor and not in a bed?

[[Am rebuilding my favorite PPB 1582 Bible and only have Matthew complete]]

If that bothers you then when you come across a resource that takes that stand then why not just skip that resource?

Long term use collections or hid it.  The best person to select the resources you should use is you. 

[[the text you refereed to has been addressed - Happy now?]]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, I would first like to apologize if my posts in the other thread came off as harsh or unfair. The need for specifically calling Logos Protestant seems pointless, I have read your arguments and still do not understand what you are hoping to gain by sticking a label on Logos base packages. As for the arguments being made as to the soteriological issues of Roman Catholics, no group can claim salvation of all it's members. The RC do have peculiar beliefs, but the teachings on Salvation in Christ is virtually identical today as you will find in the Lutheran or Anglican churches. Yes there are a small but vocal group of people who have unorthodox beliefs and I am sorry that some are raised in churches that refuse to teach the faith properly. Perhaps it has got worse since the last two Popes have done so much to undo the good of the Vatican II councils. That being said I honestly believe JP II and Ben. have a solid understanding of salvation in Christ, and have taught it and that can not be denied by anyone reading their works. I am very glad for everyone who has found the place where they feel closest to Christ and nourished by God's truth.

Love One Another

11 the message—This is not a command, as in the old system of the law, but an announcement of something good. The message announced to us from God is that we are to love our brothers in God's family, who are fellow children of God.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother … Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous—Cain's murder of his brother was caused by envy and hatred of his brother's righteous life. Even then there was a clear division between God's children, those who chose to love and obey him, and Satan's children, those who deliberately defied and rejected God.
13 Marvel not—The surprise would be if the world did love Christians. the world—represented by Cain (3:12). hate you—as Cain hated his own brother enough to murder him. The world hates us because it can see the difference between our godly lives and its own evil.
14 we have passed from death unto life—This radical change is also described in Colossians 1:13. because we love the brethren—Our love does not cause us to have eternal life, but it is evidence that we already have it. We must each ask ourselves if we have this love; if we do, then we can be sure that we have eternal life, and that this will be publicly revealed when Christ comes. abideth in death—This is the condition we are all in by nature, and one who does not have love shows that he has not passed from death to life.
15 hateth—This is the same as "loveth not" (3:14); there is no middle ground. Love and hatred, light and darkness, life and death: if we have one, we necessarily lack the other. is a murderer—If we hate someone, we wish he were dead, and God sees the inner desire as equal to the outward act that would result from it. no murderer hath eternal life—This statement is in the present tense, not the future. He is spiritually dead now, for his hatred is proof that he does not have God's life.
16 he laid down his life for us—Christ's example shows us that real love involves self-sacrifice which, as 3:17-19 points out, must result in self-sacrificial actions. we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren—We do this by becoming truly concerned about the needs of our Christian brothers, and by unselfishly giving time, effort, prayer, and possessions to supply those needs. Such an attitude would result in actually dying for a brother if this were ever necessary. Our lives should not be more precious to us than God's own Son was to him.
17 whoso hath this world's good [life's possessions]—If we are to give our very lives for our brothers, we certainly should not hold back money or anything we own. seeth—not glancing casually, but deliberately beholding. shutteth up his bowels of compassion—in modern idiom, "closes his heart" (RSV). how dwelleth the love of God in him?—If we respond in love to God's love for us, we will put our neighbor's needs before our own comforts or luxuries.
18 Jerome said that even when John was very old and had to be carried to the church meetings, he continued to remind the believers of Christ's command: "My little children, love one another." The brothers grew tired of always hearing the same instruction, but John insisted that this was the command of the Lord (see John 13:34), and that if we could attain just this one thing, it would be enough.
19 hereby we know that we are of the truth—We will know that "the truth is the source from whence spring our thoughts, motives, and conduct" (Vine) when we love in deed and in reality. and shall assure our hearts—If we are demonstrating love by our actions, we will not constantly be wondering whether God will accept us. before him—We are always before the Lord, since he sees and knows our hearts. A confident assurance that God accepts us should be the ordinary, daily experience of the believer. --New Testament: Based on the Classic Commentary of Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown.

Love is the only answer and it truly is enough.

Dan

MJ. Smith said:

Josh said:

If you're someone who believes that Catholic tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Church of Christ tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Church of Christ theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Finnish Lutheran tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Finnish Lutheran theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Mennnonite tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Mennonite theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Congregational tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Congregational theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Presbyterian tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Presbyterian theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Episcopal tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Episcopal theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Assembly of God tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Assembly of God theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Methodist tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Methodist theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Unitarian tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Unitarian theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Quaker tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Quaker theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Jewish tradition and doctrine can
mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned
with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance
Catholic Jewish theology.

I believe that covers my grandparents, parents, aunts & uncles, siblings and first cousins. Somehow, we can discuss religion with mutual respect. We don't need to wear name-tags with our denominational leanings. So please repeat for the 41, 000 denominations that Wikipedia refers to. I would hope it brings everyone a bit of humility.

From wikipedia: "Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a
comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of
Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian
denominations,
many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those
denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure
that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable."

PS.

Josh said:

a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

Correction: the product advances individual Catholics' Bible study which is quite a different matter - one that all people who believe the Bible is the Word of God should support especially if they believe in sola scriptura as that should imply that any serious and honest study will lead to the truth.

No, this is not the same thing.

Logos is NOT currently promoting and advertising a product solely to advance Church of Christ, Finnish Lutheran, Mennonite, Congregational, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Assembly of God, Methodist, Unitarian, Quaker, or Jewish theologies. But Logos IS certainly doing this with Catholic theology. This has been clearly demonstrated.

Josh said:

No, this is not the same thing.

Logos is NOT currently promoting and advertising a product solely to advance Church of Christ, Finnish Lutheran, Mennonite, Congregational, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Assembly of God, Methodist, Unitarian, Quaker, or Jewish theologies. But Logos IS certainly doing this with Catholic theology. This has been clearly demonstrated.

Verbum has been out for what - three month or so?  What other re branding packages will be released in the next ten years?

Have you considered that MAYBE it is an EXPERIMENT in fine tuning for a well defined group?

That if this Verbum EXPERIMENT works that MAYBE there will be other fine tuning for other well defined groups???????

Super Tramp said:

 I would rather sup with Augustine, Aquinas & Fulton Sheen than some hate-monger with a picket sign on the side of the road.

Hear, hear !! [B]