LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic
Comments
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Luigi Sam said:
Hi David,
As the Original Post and second post says on this thread,
I dont have a problem with Logos selling "Catholic Mod Pack" with "Catholic Base Packages". (or any other denomination)
I do have a problem with the denomination-ally neutral Software Platform being re-badged and advertised as Catholic software.
Logos is a denomination-ally neutral software platform so it does not require renaming for any denomination. so yes sell "Logos with Catholic Mod Pack" but no, to renaming and advertising the whole platform as Catholic.
I desire that you insist on these things, so that those who have come to believe in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works; these things are excellent and profitable to everyone. 9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 After a first and second admonition, have nothing more to do with anyone who causes divisions, 11 since you know that such a person is perverted and sinful, being self-condemned.Titus 3.8-11
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Luigi Sam said:
Hi David,
As the Original Post and second post says on this thread,
I dont have a problem with Logos selling "Catholic Mod Pack" with "Catholic Base Packages". (or any other denomination)
I do have a problem with the denomination-ally neutral Software Platform being re-badged and advertised as Catholic software.
Logos is a denomination-ally neutral software platform so it does not require renaming for any denomination. so yes sell "Logos with Catholic Mod Pack" but no, to renaming and advertising the whole platform as Catholic.
You simply wish to raise a ruckus. Begone !
Stop feeding the troll, everyone.
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Super Tramp said:
The diatribes of Luigi Sam are so blatantly self-contradictory as to be disingenuous. First we heard complaints against Logos for not labeling Catholic doctrine as dangerous heresy. Then Luigi did a turnaround by complaining Logos did label Verbum as Catholic. C'mon! Which will it be? Label Catholic, or not? We all see through the false indictment. Whatever happened to "You will know they are Christians by their love for one another"? I would rather sup with Augustine, Aquinas & Fulton Sheen than some hate-monger with a picket sign on the side of the road.
Am I a hate-monger for being denomination-ally aware, and sensitive, and asking Logos to support denomination categories?
- If you read the progress of that Thread(s) you will notice I changed my stance to asking for denominational categories and search/report features which aid studying the good denominations and also support studying the chaff denominations.
Super Tramp said:Then Luigi did a turnaround by complaining Logos did label Verbum as Catholic. C'mon!
- If you read the first post in this thread, you will see that is not the subject.
- it seems you are being illogical here.
Super Tramp said:Whatever happened to "You will know they are Christians by their love for one another"?
ST,
honestly I dont know what to say to you. I am trying to raise my concerns as respectfully as possible. Yes I am concerned about the issue that started this thread, and yes I would like category features that support denomination categories.Yes most or all of us are denomination-ally sensitive. why not support features that aid in studying by denomination?
However Please keep your posts on the topic of the opening post. If you have concerns about denomination categories please post them in the Warning Label Request Thread where it has developed to consider issues like that.
Thanks
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George Somsel said:
You simply wish to raise a ruckus. Begone !
I am disappointed that you don't wish to actually comment on the opening post.
I am thinking of printing off this forum and distributing it so that others can judge if I am being unreasonable, and to show them what sort of tactics are being used to try to disrupt this thread.
Please everyone, remember that you are responsible for posting, and it might actually affect your how others see your denomination.
All I am asking is that we can be respectful and kind in our replies please.
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Can you say "sanctimonious?"
Luigi Sam said:I am thinking of printing off this forum and distributing it so that others can judge if I am being unreasonable, and to show them what sort of tactics are being used to try to disrupt this thread.
Please everyone, remember that you are responsible for posting, and it might actually affect your how others see your denomination.
Precisely what denomination do you represent? I may want to print off these threads to make a point of my own.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Zacchaeus, I had not thought about. He was a big (actually little) mystery.
I was aluding Jesus Matthew's buds (Mat 9.10 Mar 2.15 Luk 5.29). His appreciation for wine at Mat 11.10 Luk 7.34 in contrast to John the Baptist.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Super Tramp said:
to make a point of my own.
Hi ST,
Often while reading posts on the forum I ask my self, Is that the type of reasoning and effort that they would put in to reading and study of the Scripture.
I commend some of your posts, and yet others seem way off context - either you didn't read the original post, or you didn't follow the thread to see how it has progressed. These types of things are holding back some of your helpfullness and aid - either for or against a thread.
In all respect, I am not being sanctimonious but may I recommend a neuteral book source that would help you think things through in an orderly manner? One that I have read my self, and has nice tables to help people have good thinking patterns so that one get the most sense out of a passage. it is entitled "How to understand the Bible" by Knofel Staton. ISBN 0-87239-191-4
I realize this may not be recieved well at first, but please consider looking it up - it is only 94 pages.
again with all respect,
regards.
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Rosie Perera said:
Luigi, give it up. Why do you care? Why do you feel so personally injured by Logos's decision to market a particular rebranded version of their mainstay product for Catholics, who have been less reached by the product in the past than Protestants? You're sounding an awful lot like a 5-year-old child crying "It's no fair!" to his mother because his sibling got to play with his favorite toy, when there are still hundreds of other awesome toys to play with in the toy chest. Go enjoy using Logos and stop worrying about how it is sold to this or that market segment.
It is Logos's decision, they made it for business reasons, and they are not going to change it based on one individual's repetitive griping about it. Bob has already answered your concerns and he is not interested in changing in the ways you have suggested, or in responding to you again.
Bob Pritchett said:Verbum was created for practical reasons in response to feedback from both Catholic and protestant users. We may or may not segment other content based on market size and demand. But even these segments cross lines -- there are books that are included in both the Logos and Verbum base packages. And users of each who want resources sold with the other.
You are not being penalized or restricted or charged more in any way by using the main product called Logos, or by the newer Catholic customers having it branded Verbum for them.
So just give it a rest. You are sounding like a broken record, and we're all getting sick of this topic.
[Y] Thank you, Rosie.
Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro
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Luigi Sam said:
it is entitled "How to understand the Bible" by Knofel Staton. ISBN 0-87239-191-4
DFTT - but this is too good to miss. If I recall correctly, this is published by a division of Standard Publishing - as a child it was their publications we used for Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, Adult Sunday School (Outlook & The Christian Standard if my memory is correct) I still purchase their Standard Lessons in Logos. Super Tramp was brought up in a missionary home of the same family of churches (think Stone Campbell). My grandfather was a farmer/pastor in this tradition and my Dad, uncle and cousins served as deacons and elders.
May I suggest that a textbook on critical thinking or informal logic or even "how to listen" provides a more appropriate correction to the failure of communication in these threads .... a more advanced suggestion would be
Coalescent Argumentation by Michael A. Gilbert (how to argue to narrow differences rather than "win"); a solid introductory suggestion would be
Understanding Arguments: An Introduction to Informal Logic Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, Robert J. Fogelin. The latter is also the basis of an excellent Coursera introduction to critical thought.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ill chime into this a bit. Im a Protestant minister, and I don't think we have to pretend that the differences between Catholics and Protestants don't matter, but we have to recognize that Logos is a good tool. One that is being used to get people into the Word. If I were not a protestant minister but a protestant businessman Id be more than happy to sell logos to many Catholics seeking to be strengthened by the Word. Id also understand that many protestants would be bothered if all of a sudden my product was inundated by catholic writings. It seems that to make a catholic focused package is a great way to avoid pretending as if everyone is interchangeable while providing everyone with a good product. Imagine how overwhelming it would be?
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Luigi Sam said:
In all respect, I am not being sanctimonious but may I recommend a neuteral book source that would help you think things through in an orderly manner?
My formal Bible education was in a Bible college associated with Knofel Staton, Don DeWelt, Standard Publishing & College Press. I say "sanctimonious" applies doubly so if you attempt to school me 35 years after the fact. If you are from the Campbellite background you should know they disclaim being a denomination.And my present church affiliation (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) also disclaims being a denomination as well as even being Protestant at all.
My thought processes are a bit deeper than an introductory pamphlet on Bible study. I am assuming much of my message need not be spoken but is understood. I am giving you credit for not being as thick as you are presently coming across. I am reasonably comfortable believing the other readers of these threads get it.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Fwiw: Like many of us, I too tried logic here with Luigi.
No logical method will work.
In my humble opinion we are left with only one right thing to do: Discontinue all posting to these threads.
Smile: It's hard though isn't it?
We keep coming back like moths to light, we want to look out the car window at the auto accident, we find ourselves still trying to beat the rigged game at the fair etc. etc.
Yet, it is my belief we do everyone a great service if we simply stop posting to these threads.
Blessings of Grace and Peace to all.
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Super Tramp said:Luigi Sam said:
In all respect, I am not being sanctimonious but may I recommend a neuteral book source that would help you think things through in an orderly manner?
My formal Bible education was in a Bible college associated with Knofel Staton, Don DeWelt, Standard Publishing & College Press. I say "sanctimonious" applies doubly so if you attempt to school me 35 years after the fact. If you are from the Campbellite background you should know they disclaim being a denomination.And my present church affiliation (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) also disclaims being a denomination as well as even being Protestant at all.
My thought processes are a bit deeper than an introductory pamphlet on Bible study. I am assuming much of my message need not be spoken but is understood. I am giving you credit for not being as thick as you are presently coming across. I am reasonably comfortable believing the other readers of these threads get it.
Hi ST,
I didn't mean it like that, you are just being defensive. Even the most seasoned person can benefit from simple things.
Also, it would be worth considering the fact that: (Ecc 4:13 )"Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished."
but maybe you are taking things too personally atm, and will not take some time to cool down - I hope you do take some time to cool down.
If you understand the point of the opening post, please try to bring something to the table. I proposed two solutions. What have you brought to the thread?
Thats why I suggested the book, because you seem to post off topic, and in ways that are not in context to the opening post or in light of how it has progressed.
If you can't take that on board and be humble (and try to overlook that someone is calling you out on this) then maybe you have something significant to think about on that verse.
I will upload another diagram explaining my proposed solution. I hope you can take your time before posting your next post to consider it. ( and during that time consider that i'm not posting to upset you )
Regards.
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Here is another outline to demonstrate my solution proposal.
You might have to click on it, to see the text.
I hope that people can bring something to the table instead of getting off topic too.
Thanks.
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Luigi,
You've obviously put a lot of work and thought into this. Your diagram is clear, and I want to thank you for it. I wish I had your mapping skills.
If it helps, I don't think the issue is with the "fairness" of your solution. I think the question is whether any change is necessary.
1) So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos. In the past, Logos allowed Thomas Nelson to use its software (Libronix). Generally said, if it helps Logos to market their product, and this success ensures a pipeline of quality resources, then most probably see it (re-branding) as beneficial.
2) I understand the argument that there might be confusion if there aren't "warning labels" or other clearly delineated denominational markers. However, I can't think of a neat solution to it. Although I am not Catholic, I have purchased and appreciate Catholic works. There is historical value in it to me (Anselm, Aquinas, etc.) and some of the modern works are worth it to challenge my thinking. If everyone on the forum agreed with you that works should be separated into denominational categories, (as this thread shows) you'd probably have many different opinions about which resources belong where. You'd also have a lot of opinions on how specific these "denomination" labels should be.
I have to trust that Logos users have the discernment to note the theological tradition of the authors they read, and not to simply conduct simple searches and paste quotes into their essays and sermon powerpoints. I share your concern that some may be challenged (or confused) in their beliefs as a result of the number of views included in a single library. But, I think I'm more comfortable than you letting the users bear the responsibility, such as a theological library would its patrons.
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Garrett Ho said:
If it helps, I don't think the issue is with the "fairness" of your solution. I think the question is whether any change is necessary.
1) So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos. In the past, Logos allowed Thomas Nelson to use its software (Libronix). Generally said, if it helps Logos to market their product, and this success ensures a pipeline of quality resources, then most probably see it (re-branding) as beneficial.
Hi Garrett,
I greatfully thank you for a good and civilised response that addresses this thread. ( in particular the above portion).
I understand that you make a different conclusion than i do, and I have no problem with you coming to a different conclusion. That is what a forum is all about.
( i write this so others that read this would also follow your example too, so sorry if this reply seems a little too over explained ).
Garrett Ho said:So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos.
I have been under the impression that most users did not know this actually. The way that Verbum is spoken about from the Logos company seems to not be expressly clear. Whereas if you actually go out of your way to read about it and how it is advertised, the penny drops. Even Catholic websites etc seem to point it out more clearly than the Logos company does to the general public.
This is why I was under the impression that few people actually realised this, and wanted to make people aware.
On top of this, I added my solutions out of trying to help make it fair.
I thank you again for understanding, and replying the way you have.
Kindly.
.Luigi.s
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You have one here that is just not bothered at all.
It is my interest that Logos better expands it's market into the Catholic market to help ensure its survival. As Protestant it is my interest that Catholics are encouraged to use Logos and be exposed to a wide range of Protestant material which they will do even tho they are encouraged to look to a separate brand for specific Catholic material. As a Seventh-day Adventist I appreciate having a range of Catholic material to obtain to understand better how my Catholic friends think. I find the vast range of material in Logos makes it harder for me to be able to ensure that I have a balanced library - at least this is now not a problem for me for Catholic material! I find that I understand better what I believe when I read what I do not believe.
I just do not feel that your fears are well founded in what is happening.
Gods blessings
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Luigi Sam said:Garrett Ho said:
So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos.
I have been under the impression that most users did not know this actually.
Have they been living under a rock? in a cave?
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Count me in as a cave dweller.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Count me in as a cave dweller.
It is easy to have missed, if you don't keep up with the forum or specific blogs.
Here is some info from November that might be of interest to you: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2012/11/verbum-the-new-logos-for-catholics/
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I want to live with Christ and do not bother about any labels.
Perhaps Logos can be a bridge between all serious believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
WE are doing the labeling (or perhaps worse, the people who trust in our church and seminary etc who are depending on our trust and/or money.....)
My personal opinion is that we need to love each believer in Christ despite our self-made, denominational differences. Yes, that is difficult and will take all of us.
Please do not react as here in Holland: for every opinion a church. Let's seek our union in Christ and I am sure all differences of this or that opinion will be acceptable to all. Please see the it all in perspective and in light of the great future we all hope to share.
Hans
MacOS Sierra / Logos 7 Collector's Edition & All Base Packages / Logos Now
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Thanks, Garrett.
Goodness, I didn't read far before I was hot under the collar (lay collar I guess).
'Evangelicals have no real need for latin.' Where'd that come from? I didn't realize what cave I was in!
No wonder there's hardly any latin support in Logos5! I'm switching over to Verbum.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
'Evangelicals have no real need for latin.' Where'd that come from?
From the proof that all groups can have mistaken stereotypes of each other?
DMB said:No wonder there's hardly any latin support in Logos5! I'm switching over to Verbum.
I fear much of the Latin is still to come ... but it will come. Isn't it great that one can switch canons etc. with the typing of a single command?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
'Evangelicals have no real need for latin.' Where'd that come from? I didn't realize what cave I was in!
I was raised in a fundamentalist church, but I took Latin in HS and have never been sorry for having done so. When I started taking Greek and Hebrew (and Ugaritic and Akkadian), the language training came in handy. You can usually tell when someone has had Latin. It helps with English too.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Anthony H said:MJ. Smith said:
Isn't it great that one can switch canons etc. with the typing of a single command?
You can?
Apparently you missed the post or didn't read all of it, but Fr. Matheny (almost wrote Mulcahy—thanks M*A*S*H) explained that.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Apparently you missed the post or didn't read all of it, but Fr. Matheny (almost wrote Mulcahy—thanks M*A*S*H) explained that.
oh Goodness! did you marry 'hot lips'?
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Jack Caviness said:
Not to speak for George, but I also had a year of Latin in High School before they canceled Latin classes because of lack of interest. [:'(] Anyway, a friend of mine from College is doing some house-shopping, comparing various schools, and he posted on Facebook the games from one Chicago area school that was teaching Latin in Elementary School. For a dead language, Latin lives on!
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Jack Caviness said:
Right after Aquinas wrote his Summas. [;)]
BTW: The HS I attended (public—warning to Brits, this is not the same as public schools in Brittain) still teaches Latin.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Jack Caviness said:Luigi Sam said:Garrett Ho said:
So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos.
I have been under the impression that most users did not know this actually.
Have they been living under a rock? in a cave?
Hi Jack,
I guess I am also speaking up from my personal experience of this.
I believe I was surfing around the Logos.com site around the time verbum was being announced, and I didn't pay any attention to it because it seemed like it was just a collection of books.
It was not until a week or so ago I realised, and raised this as an issue. ( an issue in that: (1) the Logos platform is allready non-denominational, and thus there is no need for a rebadge of the Logos platform. (2) by relabeling the logos platform for a single denomination (verbum for catholics) it is compromising its Logos platform as being one software name for all denominations. (3) it insinuates that the Logos Platform ideal as being a denominational-ally neuteral platfrom -is not good enough for catholics - yet every other denomination is being treated as one group under the 'general logos platform brand' whereas catholics are seperate, and require the 'catholic brand'.)
As my diagram shows, there is a fair way to do this so that one denomination is not put above the others.
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Luigi Sam,
Your diagram misses a major point. People using the Hebrew canon for the OT have often expressed displeasure when Logos supports the Alexandrian canon i.e LXX (or larger canon) or defaults liturgical features (lectionaries). The Verbum platform could as easily be described as the liturgical church / larger canon Logos version (i.e. especially appealing to Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Church, Lutheran and Orthodox churches). The Logos platform is accurately described as targeting non-liturgical, smaller canon churches - using databases excluding the broader canon books. A significant group of users straddle the line between the two versions depending upon their particular interests.
I think it was a wise decision on the part of Logos to continue support for the shorter canon when expanding their market into the larger canon. That they chose to leave the Logos name on the traditional short canon product makes sense - it leaves things as the majority of their original user base expect. To create a new name for the broader canon package makes a statement that they understand that some needs are different when a broader canon is used and when liturgy and church documents or confessions have a broader role in study.
I understand that you see this as inappropriate - I understood your logic in your initial post. I am not a business person and simply defer to the owners of Logos to run the company as they see fit. However, as a computer analyst I would have pushed for separate names as well to avoid user confusion.
You are correct that the Logos engine is pan-denominational. L3 was marketed if I recall correctly as potentially a discipline independent library system. The Logos 5 engine has the same potential. However, the moment one adds resources - books or databases you start tailoring it to fit a particular set of interests, including denominational ones. Because you have not used L4 or L5, you may not realize the degree to which the datasets reflect canon, and may not understand why Logos made the choices it did.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Luigi Sam said:
I believe I was surfing around the Logos.com site around the time verbum was being announced, and I didn't pay any attention to it because it seemed like it was just a collection of books.
Mostly Verbum is a collection of Books – there are switches in the Logos program to help make those books more useful as MJ Smith points out [[far better than I could say]] The Verbum or Logos trademark reminds us how we have the switches set
I am one of those that “”straddle the line between the two versions depending upon their particular interests.””
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- accidentally posted my response twice -
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MJ. Smith said:
However, as a computer analyst I would have
pushed for separate names as well to avoid user confusion.as
a software developer I would push for it to be labelled to express what
it is: something like: activate button: liturgical mode.Surely the word 'Verbum' is not meant to reflect this meaning?
In
my opinion, using the word Verbum does not reflect this at all, but is
expressly used to advertise the software platform as Catholic software
for catholics.Secondly and Critically: it is expressly advertised as Verbum for Catholics ( Catholic by name ). It is not advertised as "Logos for liturgical churches."
In summary
(excuse my large print, it is just for highlighting this point, and not to be rude )
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It is not advertised as "Logos for liturgical churches."
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It is advertised as "Logos for Catholics."
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David Ames said:
The Verbum or Logos trademark reminds us how we have the switches set
Hi David,
Could you post a screen shot of this 'switch'?
[ both set as on & off]
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Dear Luigi: Perhaps you do not have a wide enough understanding of Liturgical and catholic?
1. The Divine Liturgy, is "how we worship and live".
2. Catholic is the Faith that has been given. Short ( very short ) definition of the word is: that which is universal. In other words, the faith given us by God, through Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit in the Holy Apostles and handed down to this day. Thus, in actuality, catholic is not and should not be seen as any type of denominational label. It is only when we put "Roman" in front of it that we get some type of ( if you will -some license taken here for explanation purpose ) denominational label. So Catholic or, catholic, is not a denomination, it is a word that has to do with the faith once given, for all time, to everyone. The Roman Church is not the only church, group, denomination that uses this word or claims catholicity . The Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans and others do as well.
While Verbum does have a Roman lean to it, it is not there for just Romans. Lots of people are buying it, loving it, enjoying it and like having access to different taggings etc.
What you have argued is that Logos was and should be denominationally neutral , just the faith. Ok, Then it should be called : Catholic Logos Software. That would mean: Universal Word of God Software.
That would be about as accuratly "denominationally neutral " as you could get.
Just sayin. Hope it helps.
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Luigi Sam said:
Could you post a screen shot of this 'switch'?
In the command box type (without the “ “)
“Set Verbum to No”
Normal Logos 5 functionality
“Set Verbum to Yes “
Added functionality [not a complete list]
Search adds three collections: Catechism, Church Documents, and Church Fathers
Home page adds a Verbum Blog and a lectionary view and adds the Verbum Logo as below
If you still need a screen shot I will try - have not had much luck posting them to the forum
[maybe someone else will]
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Luigi Sam said:
Could you post a screen shot of this 'switch'?
[ both set as on & off]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Snippets of text on catholic meaning universal
[to back up Fr. Charles R. Matheny [not that he needs my help]]
Apostles’ Creed, “I believe in the holy catholic Church,” uses the word catholic as meaning Universal
- [[ Little ‘c’ not Capital ‘C’ ]]
‘Holy Church’ primitive.—‘Catholic’ not in the Old-Roman Creed, though early applied to the Church in East and West.—The ‘Catholic Church’ not an abstraction, or a symbol of subjection to Rome.—Why the name was limited to orthodox Churches and Christians.—‘Catholic’ at once comprehensive and exclusive.—Its retention in the English Creed from The Apostles’ Creed: Its Relation to Primitive Christianity
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Luigi Sam said:
Surely the word 'Verbum' is not meant to reflect this meaning?
Logos has chosen to use "Logos" to refer to the shorter canon / non-liturgical base and "Verbum" to refer to the longer canon / liturgical base. Many of us hope to see "Devar" to refer to a Jewish oriented version. Brand names have meaning only in the sense that marketing creates a meaning - Exxon or Chevrolet didn't reflect petrol products and autos initially.
The question that is relevant is does the advertizing for Verbum succeed in attracting the users (old and new) for whom it is the better choice? Given the diversity of Verbum users, I suspect that it has. And a strong Logos benefits us all.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
1. The Divine Liturgy, is "how we worship and live".
Hi Charles,
Liturgy in terms of its functionality in Logos is: commentary, bible notes or a way to 'study the faith with reduced bible study'.
(while the functionality might be slightly more or less, and the term Liturgy elsewhere is not what I seek to make a definition of)
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:2. Catholic is the Faith that has been given. Short ( very short ) definition of the word is: that which is universal. In other words, the faith given us by God, through Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit in the Holy Apostles and handed down to this day.
when talking about denominations the word 'catholic' should not be used as a term to say 'the universal faith' or 'the church of all denominations' anymore.
Additionally you fail to mention: there is Roman Catholicism, and Catholic churches which say they are not Roman Catholics. They define themselves as separate, but in actual fact they are still apart of the Roman Catholic Church ( That is they are: in full harmonious communion with it, and accept the pope and the teaching thereof).
If I am wrong tell me this in a brief summary:
1. when did the 'catholic churches' ( that entitle themselves 'catholic' and whose priests wear the catholic white collar etc) define themselves as not RC?
2. what RC catechisms and decrees remain as adopted by the catholic ("but not RC") church (and what year did they stop being accepted )?
3. Do they both have any councils and catechisms in common today?
4. what decrees does the 'catholic but not RC' differ in each council & catechism?
Additionally: your play on the word catholic has nothing to do with verbum and it being advertised as catholic software.
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MJ. Smith said:
Logos has chosen to use "Logos" to refer to the shorter canon / non-liturgical base and "Verbum" to refer to the longer canon / liturgical base. Many of us hope to see "Devar" to refer to a Jewish oriented version.
Hi MJ,I respectfully think you are trying to minimize the issue.
Point 1: Regarding Davar
Also my Original Post was meant to point out that if logos made a version called "Davar", and on purposely advertised it as "Jewish software" ( as in non-Christian, a.k.a Software for Judaism).
Then We All would understand why they would need to do this - because they dont want anything to do with 'Christian Denominations' or a Christian Software Platform.
Point 2:
And that IF Catholics get a rebrand of Logos, when they want to be called a 'Christian denomination' then this doesn't make any sense. They should just set the Logos platform to catholic mode via the catholic mod) NOT re-brand the Logos Platform.
Otherwise this makes the title of "Logos a denomination-ally neutral platform" suited for, and customizable for all 'Christian denominations' as wrong.
Put simply Verbum = "the word" just like Logos does, and Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label.
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Luigi Sam said:
Liturgy in terms of its functionality in Logos is: commentary, bible notes or a way to 'study the faith with reduced bible study'.
Where on earth did this come from? There is nothing in this definition that is remotely related to "liturgy". BTW - Jewish worship is liturgical. Liturgical Bible study tends to be more oriented towards the interrelationships between pericopes - but Standard Publishing annual lessons also have this feature. It tends towards interest in the history of interpretation - knowing whose shoulders we stand on, especially Early Church Fathers. It tends towards a more contemplative bent - as do all the Pietist movements. But most of all, it is oriented towards liturgical time in which God gives his living Word to us ... the Word is not the printed page, it is God's speech in kairos time not kronos time. Liturgy is our worship, which is heavily scriptural in the sense of praying to God in the words God has given us - especially psalms and Gospels.
Luigi Sam said:1. when did the 'catholic churches' ( that entitle themselves 'catholic' and whose priests wear the catholic white collar etc) define themselves as not RC?
No one is Roman Catholic except in the sense that the liturgy they use for worship derives from the Western tradition. There are a number (27 or so) churches that place themselves under the Pontiff that are not Roman (Latin rite). Eastern and Byzantine churches never considered themselves as Roman Catholic - even when they were united with Rome. During the Reformation in the West, Anglicans and Lutherans retained the sense of being catholic even though they broke with Rome. I cannot speak for other groups.
As for "catholic white collar", how do I tell a catholic clerical collar from a Methodist clerical collar? And not all RC priest wear clerical collars ... so [8-)]
Luigi Sam said:2. what RC catechisms and decrees remain as adopted by the catholic ("but not RC") church (and what year did they stop being accepted )?
The creeds and early ecumenical councils have been retained continuously. My interest is not in church history so beyond that I cannot speak.
Luigi Sam said:3. Do they both have any councils and catechisms in common today?
I know of a joint orthodox/catholic catechism and I know of joint Lutheran-Catholic statements. Ecumenical in the sense of the entire church? Respect for Orthodoxy makes me say probably none since 1054 when two idiots ... okay, my opinion doesn't exactly toe the party line on either side of the schism. My Calcedonian friends would like me to place the human misunderstanding closer to 450.
Luigi Sam said:4. what decrees does the 'catholic but not RC' differ in each council & catechism?
No universal (ecumenical) council was strictly RC. Catechisms are available in Lutheran, Baptist, Unitarian .... flavors. I also have Catholic catechisms that are not Roman - Byzantine and Ruthenian to be precise.
Luigi Sam said:Additionally: your play on the word catholic has nothing to do with verbum and it being advertised as catholic software.
This was not a play on the word catholic. It is the basic meaning of the word for Anglicans, Lutherans, Church of the East, Byzantine Orthodox, and Catholic - as well as a number of mainline protestants i.e. 80+% of the Christian world.
If you would like, I could provide you with a list of "non-papal" Logos resources on church history and liturgy to help fill in the gaps.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Luigi Sam said:
Then We All would understand why they would need to do this
I believe that most Logos users understand why the difference in canon made this a desirable move for Logos. Perhaps, I would not have thought so if I hadn't read the forums when the Book of Enoch came out under the resource type of Bible (think Church of the East). Note that L4 & L5 made the difference in canon more noticeable in terms of functionality.
Luigi Sam said:they want to be called a 'Christian denomination' then this doesn't make any sense.
Actually, Catholics don't even really understand the concept of denomination - they simply think of themselves as members of the universal church (add the typical Jesus, Holy Spirit, apostolic faith bit). The same is true of the Orthodox and the Church of the East ... and for many Anglo-Catholics ... and for a whole bunch of other people.
Luigi Sam said:Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label.
Logos chose the separation. Catholics simply want the broader canon - the one supported by Logos is not the Catholic Canon but is further expanded to include Byzantine and Slavic traditions. And Catholics are not interested in filling their library with evangelical pastoral books. The same may be said for many Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox (Byzantine & Oriental) ... but I repeat myself.
Luigi Sam said:Otherwise this makes the title of "Logos a denomination-ally neutral platform" suited for, and customizable for all 'Christian denominations' as wrong.
As long as the Logos datasets support only the shorter canon Logos is not denominationally neutral or customizable for all Christians. Even with the Verbum expansion, I suspect the Church of the East will still not be supported. Warning - Pacific Northwest joke ahead (unless Microsoft programmers are heavily from the Mar Thoma church - market counts).
At this point, I will excuse myself from further engagement with you
unless you are interested in Logos resources to fill the education gaps.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Educational addendum:
LITURGICAL ELEMENTS
Liturgical elements refers to the corporate expressions of praise to God or Christ that were developed into fixed forms through constant and repeated usage in the public worship of the early churches. In the Pauline corpus, the most common liturgical elements mentioned are: creedal confessions, hymns, doxologies, benedictions and prayer acclamations such as “Amen,” “Abba, Father” and “Maranatha.”
1. Creedal Confessions
2. Hymns
3. Doxologies
4. Benedictions
5. Prayer Acclamations
6. Conclusion
1. Creedal Confessions.
Creeds, in the modern sense, may not have been fully evident in the early church as in later centuries. Fragments of confessional statements (or creedal confessions), however, are present throughout the NT. In the Pauline corpus creedal confessions can be recognized by the presence of an introductory formula such as “so it says” (dio legei, Eph 5:14; cf. Eph 4:8) or an expression such as “I receive” (paralambanō, 1 Cor 15:3; Col 2:6). The central messages of creedal confessions are usually related to the saving work of Christ (e.g., 1 Cor 15:3–5) and his lordship (e.g., Rom 10:9–10; 1 Cor 12:3). The rise of these confessions is most likely due to evangelistic intention (the proclamation of the gospel); cultic practice (the expression of corporate praises to the triune God); or apologetic assertion (the defense of the gospel under attack). Creedal confessions were usually uttered at public worship or a baptismal ceremony (see Baptism). As used in Paul, creedal confessions are often found in contexts where he is defending the gospel message or proclaiming the person (see Christology) and work of Christ (1 Cor 15:3–5; cf. 1 Tim 3:16) or where he is exhorting believers to practice proper Christian conduct (1 Cor 11:26; 16:22; see Creed).
2. Hymns.
Singing was a common practice in the corporate worship of the Pauline communities (cf. 1 Cor 14:26; Eph 5:19–20; Col 3:16). While most of the songs were spontaneous expressions of praise to God by different individuals during public worship, some of them were more structured, containing various confessional elements relating Christ’s saving work and his lordship, and were recited unitedly. In the Pauline corpus, passages such as Philippians 2:6–11, Colossians 1:15–20, Ephesians 2:14–16, 5:14 and 1 Timothy 3:16 are generally acknowledged as hymnic materials. In origin and usage, hymnic materials and creedal confessions are essentially the same, that is, they were originally devised for evangelistic, cultic, apologetic purposes and carried didactic and hortative functions in their contexts. In style, however, hymnic materials are recognizable by the introductory relative pronoun “who” (hos) being followed by a participle prior to the main verb. They are written in poetic or metrical style (see Hymns).
3. Doxologies.
Doxology is a form of exalted prayer speech directed to the praise of God. It was an essential element in Jewish worship and was adopted by the early churches in their public worship. In the Pauline letters there are two major types of doxologies. One is expressed by the formula “Blessed (be) God” (Rom 1:25; 9:5; 2 Cor 1:3–11; 11:31; Eph 1:3–14), resembling the form of the šemōneh ˓eśrēh (the Eighteen Benedictions). The other is expressed by the phrase “to him be glory for ever” (Rom 11:33–36; 16:25–27; Gal 1:5; Phil 4:20; cf. Eph 3:21; 1 Tim 1:17; 6:16; 2 Tim 4:18), which is less formal in structure but more commonly used. There is no particular or fixed location for the insertion of these doxologies except to note that they are not usually tacked-on elements, but are connected with the context, arising out of the preceding words. And their contents, while following a basic formula, are often expressed differently by the addition of new phrases that help to convey didactic messages directly related to the situation of the readers (2 Cor 1:3–11; cf. Eph 1:3–14; Rom 11:33–36; Gal 1:5; (see Benediction, Blessing, Doxology).
4. Benedictions.
Benediction is a form of wish-prayer expressed for the well being of the people for whom the prayer is offered. In the Pauline corpus each letter is commenced with an introductory benediction, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ” (see Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; Gal 1:3; Phil 1:2; Philem 3; Eph 1:2), and concludes with a benediction, “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you” (see 1 Cor 16:23; Gal 6:18; Phil 4:23; Philem 25; 2 Thess 3:18). The form and location of these benedictions are similar to those used in Jewish worship, but in content Pauline benedictions are distinctly Christian in that additional features such as “grace” and “from our Lord Jesus Christ” are added to the Jewish formula. The content of these benedictions (both the introductory and the concluding) are essentially the same in that they include three basic elements: the wish for blessing, the source of the benefaction and the recipients. But they are not expressed identically in every case. Paul does not simply borrow and insert a stereotyped benediction into each letter; nor does he include benedictions in his letters for the sake of formality. In each letter the introductory or concluding benediction may be written somewhat differently (see 2 Cor 13:13; Gal 6:18; 1 Thess 1:1; Col 1:2).
Besides the introductory and concluding benedictions, Paul at times inserts “wish-prayers” for his readers. These are placed within the content of the letter at places where he wants to express his sincere concern for his readers in relation to problems being addressed. In such cases the “wish-prayers” are always tailored to address the specific needs of his readers (Rom 15:5, 13, 33; 1 Thess 3:11–13; 2 Thes 1:11–12; 2:16–17; 3:5). Thus Paul’s use of liturgical benedictions is not perfunctory (see Benediction).
5. Prayer Acclamations.
In the Pauline corpus there are three non-Greek liturgical acclamations which are usually connected with prayers that are used by Paul for other purposes. These acclamations are “Amen,” “Abba, Father” and “Maranatha.”
5.1. “Amen.” “Amen” (Gk amēn) is a transliteration of the Hebrew word ˒āmēn, which is derived from the root ˒mn, meaning “firmness, certainty.” In the OT amen is an expression of affirmation of what has been said, whether in a solemn curse (Num 5:22; Jer 11:5) or in prayer and praise (1 Chron 16:36; Neh 8:6; Ps 41:13; 106:48). In early Judaism this usage of amen continued (Tob 3:3) and was so firmly established that in time it became a liturgical element in Jewish worship: the congregation responded with an “Amen” at the end of each prayer recited by the leader.
In Paul’s letters amen is used in two different ways. The first one is the common usage where it is placed at the end of benedictions (Rom 15:33; 1 Cor 16:24; Gal 6:18; Philem 25), doxologies (Rom 1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27; Gal 1:5; Eph 3:21; Phil 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 6:16; 2 Tim 4:18) and prayers of thanksgiving (cf. 1 Cor 14:16) as an affirmation of the prayer or thanksgiving of another person. But Paul does not use amen merely for liturgical purposes. In some instances it is intentionally mentioned to promote the unity of the congregation through their corporate utterance of “Amen” together (cf. Rom 15:33) or to lead the readers into a verbal affirmation of the doctrinal beliefs which they are in danger of abandoning (see Gal 1:3–5). This is indicted by the frequency of references to and the locations of amen in Paul’s letters.
The second way of using amen by Paul is found in 2 Corinthians 1:20. In this context (2 Cor 1:15–22) there is no doxology or benediction. Instead, Paul is explaining to the Corinthians his change of traveling plans. In defending his personal integrity in the ministry of the gospel, Paul refers to God’s faithfulness (2 Cor 1:18), which is supported by Christ’s faithfulness in fulfilling God’s promises (1 Cor 1:19–20). Because Christ is faithful (not “yes” and “no”), God’s faithfulness in promising salvation to humanity is fulfilled. The amen in this context is not likely a substitution of “yes” (as Hahn proposes), nor a reference to its semitic meaning “firmness, certainty” (as van Unnik argues). Rather, it is invoked in its liturgical usage (i.e., expressed at the end of prayers) to underscore the faithfulness of Christ in fulfilling God’s promise of salvation which in turn creates the possibility for believers to utter together “Amen” in their corporate worship to the glory of God. Accordingly, Paul’s argument is: He (Paul) is faithful (or trustworthy) just as God is faithful. God is faithful because his son Jesus Christ is faithful in fulfilling his promises. In this light amen is used in 2 Corinthians 1:20 not only directly to affirm Christ’s faithfulness, but also indirectly to support Paul’s argument for his own trustworthiness. Here we see an example of Paul’s creative use of a liturgical acclamation with its familiar meaning for the strengthening of his argument.
5.2. “Abba, Father.” The original meaning of Abba and the original usage of the phrase “Abba, Father” in addressing God have long been discussed among NT scholars. The majority view (following J. Jeremias) considers Abba an Aramaic word (˒abbā˒) used by small children in addressing their fathers. It was adopted by Jesus in all his prayers to God and later on introduced by him to his disciples to indicate an intimate relationship between God and the believers. Although this popular view has been challenged by J. Barr, who argues that Abba is actually an adult’s word and was used to address God prior to Jesus’ use of the term, its unique usage by Jesus to emphasize a relationship of endearment between God and the believers must not be denied (cf. Jn 5:17–18). In Jesus’ usage of Abba there is portrayed a direct, individual, filial relationship with God. The double address formula “Abba, Father” appears three times in the NT (Mk 14:36; Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). This formula most likely originated in the garden of Gethsemane when Jesus, under intense emotional stress, added “Father” to Abba. Evidently, this double address was known among the Palestinian churches and was transmitted to the Gentile churches both in Asia (cf. Gal 4:6) and Italy (cf. Rom 8:15) as a reminiscence of the ipsissima vox Jesu (see Jesus, Sayings of). It was later used as a liturgical acclamation (perhaps the communal recitation of the Lord’s Prayer) during public worship and was also applied by individuals in their private prayers.
In Paul’s letters the two occurrences of “Abba, Father” are found in contexts where Paul is presenting theological arguments for Christian conduct (Rom 8:1–17) and the gospel (Gal 3:1–4:31). In Romans 8 “Abba, Father” is mentioned as a proof of the Romans’ filial relationship with God (see Adoption, Sonship), and on such basis the Romans are obligated to live according to the Spirit (see Holy Spirit). In Galatians 4:6 “Abba, Father” is used to reassure the Galatians of their filial relationship with God even without the observance of the Law (cf. Gal 3:26; 4:5, 7) which the “troublemakers” among them tried to impose. So in both cases this liturgical address, “Abba, Father,” with its popular meaning, is used by Paul to convey the theme of his argument.
5.3. “Maranatha.” One of the unique features in Paul’s letters is his inclusion of the Aramaic word maranatha at the end of his letter to the Corinthians, immediately before he expresses his customary concluding benediction (1 Cor 16:22). This is the only occurrence of the word in the entire NT, and for this reason there has been much discussion concerning its meaning, origin and function. Linguistically, the Greek maranatha can be read as a transliteration of the Aramaic marana˒ ta˒ (i.e., the first person plural with the pronominal suffix), denoting an imperative cry “Our Lord, come!,” or maran ˒eta˒ (i.e., the shorter form), denoting an indicative statement “Our Lord has come” or “The Lord will come.” Of these three meanings, the first has been understood by most NT interpreters to be the original meaning of the term, based on the fact that two similar prayers for the Lord’s future coming are found in Revelation 22:20 (erchou Kyrie Iēsou, “Come! Lord Jesus”) and in Didache 10:6 (maran atha, “Maranatha”). Many interpreters have argued that the Sitz im Leben of this invocation was the Eucharist (see Lord’s Supper), where it served as a prayer for the Lord’s immediate presence as well as for his eschatological return (see Eschatology). This view draws its support from Didache 10:6 where “Maranatha” occurs at the end of the meal in connection with the eucharistic liturgy.
In 1 Corinthians the mention of maranatha in its context is directly related to the particular occasion and purpose of this letter. Being misled by the intruding errorists (see Opponents) into believing a realized eschatology, some of the Corinthians thought that they were already in the new age and that there was no need for a future bodily resurrection. This belief led them to many unacceptable styles of behavior, and Paul is seen making continual emphasis on a futuristic eschatology throughout the letter (e.g., 1 Cor 1:7–8; 3:13; 4:5; 5:5; 6:14; 11:26; 13:12; 15:50–54). Then when he comes to the end of the letter, the pronouncement of a curse, “anathema” (see Curse) on those who do not love the Lord (possibly Paul’s opponents) and the exclamation “maranatha!” a prayer for Christ’s coming, together serve to reinforce the key messages of the letter.
In brief, Paul’s use of this liturgical acclamation at the end of his letter accomplishes three possible functions. First, it may express his sincere wish-prayer that the Lord may soon come. After writing a lengthy letter filled with confrontation, correction and instruction, Paul certainly wishes that the Lord will soon come to vindicate what he had said and done as an apostle (cf. 1 Cor 4:3–5). Secondly, it may be used to correct the Corinthians’ misconception concerning their status in Christ. The Lord will come again to usher them into the new kingdom with their resurrected or transformed bodies. They are not yet in the new age here and now (1 Cor 15:50–53; 6:14; cf. 4:8). And finally, it may function to exhort them to live worthily before the Lord. Since they will face his judgment at his coming (1 Cor 3:11–15), a petition for the Lord’s coming reminds them to behave constantly in a proper manner, notably in their personal lives but also in their corporate worship. Thus in 1 Corinthians, maranatha is placed in its context for specific purposes and to suit the particular needs of the Corinthian congregation.
6. Conclusion.
The above discussion indicates that Paul’s letters are richly endowed with liturgical elements. Since these letters were read in public worship, the frequent inclusion of liturgical elements is to be expected. Yet it is remarkable to find that Paul’s use of liturgical elements is never confined to stereotyped usage or content. This is seen in his careful selection of a particular form of liturgical element and his placement of it in a strategic location. In many cases the content of these liturgical elements (e.g., doxologies and benedictions) are tailored to clarify or underline the crucial messages he wants to convey to his readers, either for didactic, hortative or apologetic functions. In similar fashion, the liturgical acclamations “amen,” “Abba, Father” and “maranatha,” with their popular meanings, are cited in contexts to strengthen his arguments. In sum, liturgical elements are used by Paul in a lively and creative manner. Their presence in public worship becomes meaningful only when they include relevant messages directed to the needs of the worshipers.
See also BENEDICTION, BLESSING, DOXOLOGY, THANKSGIVING; CREED; HYMNS, HYMN FRAGMENTS, SONGS, SPIRITUAL SONGS; PRAYER; WORSHIP.
BIBLIOGRAPHY. J. Barr, “ ‘Abba Isn’t ‘Daddy,’ ” JTS 39 (1988) 28–47; L. G. Champion, Benedictions and Doxologies in the Letters of Paul (Oxford: publ. privately, 1934); W. Dunphy, “Maranatha: Development in Early Christology,” ITQ 37 (1970) 294–308; J. A. Fitzmyer, “The New Testament Kyrios and Maranatha and their Aramaic Background,” in To Advance the Gospel (New York: Crossroad, 1981) 218–35; W. H. Gloer, “Homologies and Hymns in the New Testament: Form, Content and Criteria for Identification,” PRS 11 (1984) 115–32; F. Hahn, “Das Ja des Paulus und das Ja Gottes,” in Neues Testament und christliche Existenz: Festschrift für Herbert Braun, ed. H. D. Betz & L. Schottroff (Tübingen: J. C. B. Mohr, 1973) 229–39; J. Jeremias, The Prayers of Jesus (SBT 2/6; London: SCM, 1967) 11–65; idem, New Testament Theology: The Proclamation of Jesus (New York: Scribners, 1971) 61–68; H.-W. Kuhn, “ἀββά,” EDNT 1.1–2; A. MacDonald, Christian Worship in the Primitive Church (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1934); R. P. Martin, “Paul and His Predecessors,” in New Testament Foundations (2 vols.; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978) 2.248–75; A. Mawhinney, “God as Father: Two Popular Theories Reconsidered,” JETS 31 (1988) 181–90; J. T. Sanders, The New Testament Christological Hymns (Cambridge: University Press, 1971); W. C. van Unnik, “Reisepläne und Amen-Sagen, Zusammenhang und Gedankenfolge in 2 Korinther 1:15–24,” in Studia Paulina in honorem J. de Zwaan, ed. J. N. Sevenster und W. C. van Unnik (Haarlem: De erven F. Bohn, 1953) 215–34.
J. L. Wu
Gerald F. Hawthorne, Ralph P. Martin and Daniel G. Reid, Dictionary of Paul and His Letters, 557-60 (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993).Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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educational addendum:
CREEDS, EARLY CHRISTIAN. Christian creeds have grown out of the life of faith itself. No council decided the church needed creeds, and no church assembly until quite recently appointed a committee to write a creed. The church has generally been very modest in writing creeds, doing so only when compelled by the demands of the community of faith itself.
The origin of creeds is rooted on the one hand in the nature of revelation itself, which elicits interpretations by those who receive it that are given expression in words, images, and propositions. Faith is the act of intelligible beings as well as of the human will and affections. Karl Barth has written, “Just because he is intelligens, the Christian of all men, has to learn to discern with agonizing clarity what is conceivable by him about God” (1960: 20–21). What cannot be thought clearly and expressed cogently cannot be the basis of life commitment.
Faith itself seeks intelligibility. On the one hand, it seeks the intelligibility of faith itself so that the content of faith can be communicated in intelligible images and in descriptive propositions. On the other hand, faith seeks to understand the world in the light of what it perceives to be the revelation of God.
Creeds are also rooted in and bear the marks of history. Situations in the life of the community of faith have called for creeds, such as heresy, persecution, and worship itself. Controversies within the community have demanded that the community clarify its own judgment as to the content of faith. In addition, great dangers from without which have pressured the church and challenged its deepest commitments have also compelled the church to declare unequivocally its deepest commitments. Creeds therefore bear not only the marks of the believing person, but also the marks of the history in which they have come to be.
Creeds are intentionally catholic. They may bear the marks of their particularity and of a specific perspective and place. The basic intention, however, is to state the faith not of a partisan group but of the one holy catholic church.
The authority of creeds varies. Generally the word “creed” is given to the short and brief statements of the ancient catholic church, such as the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed. The comprehensive Reformed statements of faith are usually labeled confessions. However, there is no established terminology. Protestants in particular have always insisted that creeds are subordinate to Scripture, but at times Protestant churches have used creeds with an equivalent authority. The early Reformed creeds were written with the awareness that a creed ought to be a confession in a particular time and place, and that no one creed should have universal significance. Karl Barth in the 20th century has reiterated the same conviction. Creeds therefore may have normative authority, or they may be the occasional confession of the way the church understands Christian faith in a particular time with no claim to finality. At the other extreme, confessions may be regarded as simply descriptions of Christian belief and practice with no decisive authority.
A. Sources of Creeds
1. Liturgy and Worship. The liturgical life of the church called for creeds of various types. Rules of Faith, varied and without precise language, served the needs of preaching and teaching without stifling creativity. Declarations of faith by the worshiping congregation, in distinction from Rules of Faith, had to be precise, fixed, and economical in the use of words. Rules of Faith may be found in various forms in the writings of such early theologians as Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen.
Creedal statements from the beginning have been associated with baptism. Hans Lietzmann argued that the root of all Christian creeds is the formula for belief pronounced by the baptizands or pronounced in their hearing and assented to by them before baptism.
The creedal form that was used in baptismal rites in the 2d and 3d centuries was interrogatory. One of the best examples of the developed form of the interrogatory creed is found in the Apostolic Traditions of Hippolytus (ca. 215):
Do you believe in God the Father all-governing? Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was begotten by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary, Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and died (and was buried) and rose the third day living from the dead, and ascended into the heavens, and sat down on the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, in the holy church, and (in the resurrection of the body)?
Creeds also became part of the liturgy of the holy communion in the 5th century. This practice gave the Nicene Creed widespread authority in the life of the church.
2. Education. The teaching ministry of the church also called for creeds. The mother creed of our Apostles’ Creed developed in Rome in the 3d century when the interrogatory creed of baptism was turned into a declaratory creed. This became part of catechetical training when the bishop traditioned the creed to the catechumens and when the catechumens rendered it back as their own witness of faith. Creeds were also used as a basis of catechetical lectures, as in the case of the catechetical lectures of Cyril of Jerusalem.
3. Interpretation. Creeds were a useful hermeneutical guide. Biblical studies were carried on and theology was formulated under the guidance of rules of faith and creeds which were the church’s best wisdom as to how the Bible should be understood and the faith expressed.
4. Apologetics. Heresy was still another occasion for creedal formulation. Older creedal scholars, such as A. C. McGiffert (1902), argued that the refutation of heresy was a primary factor in the development of the Apostles’ Creed. For example, the affirmation that God created the heavens and the earth stood over against the conviction that the created world was evil and the work of a lesser god. Others have argued against McGiffert, that heresy was not a necessity for such Christian affirmations as the goodness of creation.
5. Evangelism. Christian witness made use of creeds as Christians defined themselves over against the pagan society. It also enabled the Christian to render a firm and clear testimony in the face of persecution.
B. Forms of Creeds
1. The Bible. Precise, fixed creeds did not appear until the 3d and 4th centuries of the church’s history, but the process that culminated in them had its beginning in the historical credos (Deut 25:5–9 and 6:21–25) and in the declaratory affirmations of the OT (Deut 6:4–5 and 1 Kings 18:39). The NT church in preaching, singing, praying, and witnessing increasingly gave expression to Christian faith in more or less fixed formulas, for example, in 1 Cor 15:3–7; Phil 2:6–11; Matt 28:10; and Rom 10:9. Some creedal statements are simple christological affirmations declaring the lordship of Jesus Christ (Mark 8:9, 1 Tim 3:16, Romans 10:9). Others are two-article formulas confessing both God and Christ (1 Cor 8:6). Three-article statements affirming Father, Son, and Holy Spirit appear in Matt 28:19 and in 2 Cor 13:13, which is a pretrinitarian formulation.
2. Ecumenical Creeds. The creedlike statements of the NT and early Christian writers such as Ignatius, as well as the Rules of Faith, were replaced by precise creedal formulas which served the liturgical and catechetical needs of local churches. In the East, the creeds varied from church to church, but in the West, the creed of Rome exercised a dominating influence over the great churches in the West. One of the daughter creeds of Rome became the established version of the Apostles’ Creed. It first appeared in southwest France sometime in the late 6th or 7th century. Its present text is found in the De singulis libris canonicis scarapsus of Priminius, which is dated between 710 and 724. This creed, which owed much to Rome, became the common creed of the Frankish empire and was finally adopted in Rome. It became the most universal creed in the West, but it was not known in the East. The first creed to have synodical authority was promulgated by the Council of Nicea (325) in response to the teaching of an Alexandrian presbyter named ARIUS concerning the deity of Jesus Christ. Christians had spoken of Jesus as Lord, Savior, the Word, Son of God, Son of man, prophet, and priest. All these refer to the activity of Jesus Christ and his relation to us.
Arius changed the question. He did not ask how Jesus Christ is related to us or what he means to us. He asks the prior question, “Who is Jesus?” Is he really God? Or is he a creature? Arius declared that he was a creature, but the Council of Nicea took a creed of an Eastern church and added to it four formulas which stated without ambiguity that Jesus Christ was truly God. The key formula was “of the same substance as the Father.” The Nicene Creed, which is used in worship today, is dated from the Council of Constantinople in 381. All creeds that use the phrase “of the same substance (reality, being, essence) as the Father” were regarded as Nicene. The Council of Constantinople also eliminated the anathemas from the Creed of 325 and added a statement affirming the deity of the Holy Spirit as well as the one holy catholic church, the forgiveness of sins, and the resurrection of the dead. The Council of Nicea, in affirming that Jesus Christ was truly God, raised the question of the humanity of Christ, and therefore of the doctrine of the person of Christ. The church of the 5th century, in an amazingly catholic theological endeavor, defined its understanding of the person of Jesus Christ at the Council of Chalcedon (431) in which it affirmed that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man in one person (one acting subject).
The Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius but by some Augustinian theologians sometime after the middle of the 5th century. Its use has declined because of its anathemas, but recent studies by J. N. D. Kelly have pointed to its theological excellence. The Definition of the Council of Chalcedon (451) was the definitive statement of the ancient church on the person of Jesus Christ, but it was never used in worship as were the other three creeds.
3. Creeds of the Eastern Church. The Nicene Creed has always been used in the Eastern churches. Later doctrinal statements included the Orthodox Confession of Peter Mogilas (1643), the Answers of Jeremiah (Patriarch of Constantinople) to Lutheran Theologians (1576), the Confession Prepared by Metrophanes Critopolus to Explain Eastern Orthodoxy to Protestants (1625), the Russian Catechisms, especially the Longer Catechism of Philaret (1839), a confession appearing under the name of Cyril Lucar (1629), Patriarch of Constantinople, which was sympathetic to Protestantism and which was repudiated by the majority of Orthodox. The Confession of Dositheus, approved by the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 in opposition to the Protestant sympathies of the previous document, is more representative of the Eastern church.
4. Roman Catholicism. The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (1545–63) were formulated in the context of the Protestant Reformation. It also narrowed many of the options of the very fluid theology of medieval Catholicism. The creed of the Council of Trent (1564) is a short summary of the lengthy Tridentine document. The Council of Trent fixed the shape of modern Roman Catholicism. There have been other notable pronouncements of doctrine, such as the Dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary (1950), in addition to numerous papal encyclicals of considerable importance. The whole shape of Roman Catholicism received a new interpretation in the work of Vatican Council II (1962–65).
5. Protestantism. Protestants were prolific writers of confessions. These include Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses (1517), the Augsburg Confession (1530), the Apology of the Augsburg Confession (1531), the Smalcald Articles (1537), the Treatise on the Power and the Primacy of the Pope (1537), the Small Cathechism of Dr. Martin Luther (1529), and the Large Catechism of Dr. Martin Luther (1529). Calvinists and Reformed Protestants wrote many creeds, the most typical of which are the Ten Theses of Berne (1528), the Gallican Confession (1529), the Scots Confession (1560), and the second Helvetic Confession (1566).
Seventeenth-century Protestantism produced the Westminster Confession (1647) and the Westminster Catechisms, which became the dominant Reformed statement for English-speaking Presbyterians, and also the Canons of Dort (1619). The Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England (1563) combined Calvinist and Lutheran influences, as well as an indigenous English tradition with that of the Catholic tradition. At the other extreme of the Protestant Reformation were statements of the radical Reformers such as Schleitheim Articles of 1527.
6. Contemporary Confessions. Numerous confessions have been written in the 20th century. Some of these, such as the Barmen Declaration (1934), were in response to National Socialism. The Confession of 1967 of the United Presbyterian Church (USA) was the attempt of a denomination to formulate its faith in contemporary idiom and in response to contemporary problems. Some of the most interesting of the 20th-century confessions have arisen in younger and non-Western churches, such as the creed of the Batak Church (Great Synod of the Huria Kristen Batak Protestant Church of Indonesia, 1956).
Bibliography
Barth, K. 1960. Anselm: Fides Quaerens Intellectum. London.
Kelly, J. N. D. 1972. Early Christian Creeds. 3d ed. New York.
Leith, J. H. 1982. Creeds of the Churches. 3d ed. Atlanta.
McGiffert, A. C. 1902. The Apostles’ Creed. New York.
Schaff, P. 1877. Bibliotheca Symbolica Ecclesiae Universalis: The Creeds of Christendom. 3 vols. New York. Repr. Grand Rapids, 1966.
JOHN H. LEITH
John H. Leith, "Creeds, Early Christian", in , vol. 1, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, ed. David Noel Freedman, 1203-06 (New York: Doubleday, 1992).Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Super Tramp said:Josh said:
Logos is NOT currently promoting and advertising a product solely to advance Church of Christ, Finnish Lutheran, Mennonite, Congregational, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Assembly of God, Methodist, Unitarian, Quaker, or Jewish theologies. But Logos IS certainly doing this with Catholic theology. This has been clearly demonstrated.
"clearly demonstrated"? Don't tell me you actually believe Logos is proselytizing for the Catholic Church! Logos is doing nothing more than selling books that are related to Bible study & theology.Maybe if we "Protestants" would get busy & surpass the Catholics in numbers we would see more of "our" works getting published. Another thing to be thankful for is; we did not have to wait for 20 years before Logos got around to publishing Luther, Spurgeon, the Church of God Digital Library Collections, or even Stone-Campbell material.
I didn't mean for my comment to be so ambiguous, but I had mentioned in one of my previous posts how this goes slightly beyond just selling mere books, specified collections, or discounted bundles of the Catholic variety. It appears that Logos is specially catering to Catholic needs in ways they do not do with other denominations. For instance, not only did Logos create Verbum, but Logos is currently producing and advertising the video series Catholic Practicum where Logos staff are demonstrating to Catholics how to use Logos software/resources within a "Catholic Scripture study methodology."
Can you imagine if Logos produced a video series called 'Jehovah Witness Practicum' and provided Jehovah Witnesses with important insights and tips concerning how to use Logos within a Jehovah Witness Scripture study methodology!!
Now, surely I'm not suggesting that Logos is proselytizing for the Catholic Church (in fact it's obvious that they reject many of the Catholic teachings), but I do think that their desire to capture the Catholic market share has caused them to produce products that has directly encouraged and endorsed the study of erroneous Catholic doctrine. I don't think they should be doing this for any denomination.
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