L4 and Precept (Inductive) Bible Studies.

Ok, I have been concentrating too much on bugs and features, but not enough on studies.

So with that in mind I am starting a precept study on Isaiah, and I would like input from the users that use inductive/precept studies as to what type of work flow they use. For instance, when I first saw the inductive highlighting section, I thought that it would be very useful. Upon trying to use it to highlight all the personal pronouns in a chapter, I came to a different conclusion. So, if you wouldn't mind sharing, I will be listening.

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Kaye Anderson

I know what you mean. Logos is like a shiny new toy...way too distracting but fun! I bought Logos (3 with a very fast upgrade to 4) right after I learned about Precept and Inductive bible study so I'm new to both but I'll share what I do so far. I am making my way through Daniel.

I created a set of notes to record what I learn about God's nature since that will apply to any area I study. I also have a note set for Book of Daniel Study and I use it to record the who/what/where/why/when/how as I read. Who is reigning? What year is it? What does the dream mean based on what the scripture tells me? What do cross references say to clarify? When I add notes I always mark the reference and not the selection because I don't like the highlighting the selection takes on and prefer a little marker out in the left margin instead. I color God's notes in one color I plan to use throughout my studies and other notes in another color. I name my notes files "NOTES: xxx", where xxx is the topic, so I can find them easier in the File drop down. I do the same for each type of file I can create. I hope some day they put in a little more organization but this works fine for now with my small number of files.

I have both sets of notes open in a left side pane, along with a reading schedule I set up with plenty of time for me to study each chapter. I don't follow it to the letter but it keeps me moving and not forgetting to study for a week since it shows up in my ribbon. I also have highlighting open in the left pane. When I'm marking, I keep it on top so I can change around from marker to marker. I'm REALLY looking forward to creating my own symbol/color combinations. I miss that from version 3. I've gotten used to selecting and marking, using control-K when marking the same word many times and control-shift-K to erase a mistake. It's not perfect but I like it better than marking up paper scriptures. I'd love to be able to use the mouse wheel to change between my five currently prioritized styles as I read. That would be excellent! And I'd love to be able to set double clicking to choose a word instead of open a resource for the word. If I could turn that on and off to meet the need at the time and change styles by mouse wheel I could fly through the chapter.

In my right half I have the NASB at the top so I can read, mark and even check Strong's or Morphology in the interlinear. Strong's stays open at the bottom right and also "That's Easy for You to Say" just because I like to look up names I don't know. :-)

I have a Precept book and I am working through it to get used to the study style. I don't keep commentaries open because the idea is to understand scripture from scripture. I do use a Bible dictionary sometimes to gain information on a piece of history or a certain person.

That's it so far. I hope you'll post as you work out your own system. I'm sure I will learn from it.

Kaye

Bob

Kaye

Thanks for the outline of your study. Is there a precept book in LOGOS that I could work with? I am not sure what the title or type would be. I tried looking for inductive and precept but my library did not produce anything useful (for this topic anyway).

Terry Poperszky

Robert. the Precept concept is centered around Kay Arthur and Precept Ministries (http://www.precept.org/). It is a very popular form of Inductive bible study, but I don't see any of their material on the site. If you want to pick up a paper copy, the core methodology is taught in a book called "How to Study Your Bible (The Lasting Rewards of the Inductive Method), I would highly recommend it.

I did find a book on Logos that did deal with both Inductive and Deductive study techniques but I don't have any experience with it, or the author.

http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/HNDBBLST

Arthur didn't invent Inductive Study, although she might as well have <GRIN>. Her claim was that she took seminary level teaching and made it understandable for everyone and it is a rare area where you can't find a church holding classes using her material.

I got involved with it because my wife is a former precept teacher, and currently all the Sunday School classes at our congregation are using summary or overview studies and that just doesn't satisfy my hunger for the Word. So I am attending a precept class at another Baptist church.

Robert Pavich

FWIW,

I have used the precept study method in the past and I've settled on the "lazy mans way" of precept studying...I color code important words and "like" words to the text is easier to follow....that's it.

Words that are key, places, names, etc...

I'm just not that disclipined... [:D]

Tes

I have a Precept book and I am working through it to get used to the study style

Kay,I have bought the NASB bible which is dsigned for the inductive study bible method recommended by Kay Arthur before 7years ,could you tell me what they have now?

Tes

How to Study Your Bible (The Lasting Rewards of the Inductive Method), I would highly recommend it.

This book is a very good one ,I have used the old one and the updated one.

Kim Clayton

Terry, to answer your 'workflow' question. First I would like to say that I don't have Logos 4, I have L3 and have been doing the PUP studies for many years just started learning to use L3.

Here is my workflow

Following the PUP study instructions-when you are a beginner don't skip a step in the instructions it has a ripple affect as you become familiar there are some time savers.

I make my chart/lists in MSWord-arthur, recipient, people, At A Glance - Then copy/paste to Logos Notes, I only answer questions in the actual PUP book. But I will be transfer that to the Notes so everything will be there (not sure how yet) All the work is done in MSWord and copied to the Notes. My lesson plan (teaching guide) will also be in the notes. You just have to remember that as you continue in your study you will make changes to the charts/lists-so get in the habit of changing in MSWord then copy to Logos Notes.

Suggestion for Note organization -Color code the Notes

Green for the Overview, I do all the charts in MSWord, open a Note in Logos and copy and paste my charts to the Green Notes

Purple Note for all things about God

Red Note Lesson 1, L2, L3

I hope this helps, as I said I am just getting started with using Logos for PUP studies. As far as I know there are no study books available at this time within Logos but at the Precept Leaders site there was talk of the possibility.

To those looking to dig deeper I would like to encourage you to continue using the PUP studies which allows you to dig, sometimes the encouragement from a group discussion spurs you on to dig, also using the DVD lectures that Precept offers give you additional insight. For myself, if I don't feel I am getting much from the book it is usually because I am not completing the assignments from the PUP workbook or I am not meditatively praying the Text.

When I trained to be a Precept Leader I sat beside pastors who had went to seminary and were in 'awe' of the inductive process.

Karen, thank you, for the download, I just purchased your Dad's book, Jensen's Bible Study Charts.

Terry Poperszky

Terry, to answer your 'workflow' question. First I would like to say that I don't have Logos 4, I have L3 and have been doing the PUP studies for many years just started learning to use L3.

Personally, I think that workflow between L3 and L4 will be similar, varying only in technical details. Thanks for sharing the details.

When I trained to be a Precept Leader I sat beside pastors who had went to seminary and were in 'awe' of the inductive process.

The funny part is that my wife (who also trained as a Precept Leader) told me that my studies did instinctively what she had to train to understand (I am a former pastor). I started attending the actual Precept courses last year when I wanted to refine my technique. We have a couple of other trained leaders at our Church, but Precept has never gained much ground here and classes died soon after starting. What my wife and I are doing now is a SS class that is based on the the fruits of our own inductive studies. We are hoping that by introducing people to the tools and concepts slowly God will use that to waken the desire for deeper study in the hearts of our adult students. So far, so good. Many actually did last weeks home work [:D]

Sharon

Hi Terry,

Blessed to hear about you seeking to feed God's children.

I taught Precept for almost 20 years, ran out of PUP books and had to start writing my own for my students.

My work flow:

I start by reading the book of the Bible through that I am going to study. (I use my personal print Bible for this.) I will read it through 50-100 times before I go to the next step. Each time I am reading it through with a purpose, marking one thing, and only one thing, each time through. I will many times read the book over several times just looking for one thing. I scour the text. This has obvious benefits in hearing the Word from God. The things I mark are God, Jesus, Spirit, key words, key phrases, time phrases, contrasts & comparisons, terms of conclusions, etc.

Along the way, as I see major segment divisions in the book (which becomes clearer each time I read it through) I mark them.

If I see definite divisions in a chapter, I will mark those, as well, along with chapter themes.

It takes me a few months on just this first step of observing the text. It is not boring at all. It is exciting because God's Word is Spirit and Truth and so I see soooo many more things doing it this way that it is almost impossible to believe unless one has done it themselves. And of course, as God is speaking to me the whole time, He is calling me to other passages, revealing connections within the text, etc.

Once the initial observations are made (and yes, my Bibles get pretty used - but then, they have become my familiar friends, as well), I then put Logos under the hood and drive full steam ahead. This is when I use Logos to define word meanings, locate additional cross-references, create charts, etc.

Finally, if there is ever a 'finally' when studying a book of the Lord's, when I am ready to teach, I use Logos to accumulate my findings and save it in Word. I use this accumulation as a commentary whenever I teach the same book again.

I teach from my Bible alone. After spending so much time with the Lord in it, He leads me through each book, verse by verse, word by word, supernaturally reminding me what He has taught me. And of course, He uses the notes "We" have made in my Bible to help me, too.

This whole process definitely takes times. It took over two years to study and teach Revelation, and another two years for Romans, etc. Isaiah has taken me 4 years and I am still studying and teaching it! There are only a few books I have not studied to "teach" (which is a whole other thing than studying to "learn") and most I have taught many times. I can count on needing 50-60 hours per week of study. Each time I try to start fresh, but of course, each time is easier and faster than the time before.

I am assuming you are wanting to use Logos for more of the process than I do. The reason I do not is simply this--I don't believe I can possibly do, with Logos, what I can do with my hands and eyes, focusing just on the Word alone for that first step. I draw arrows all over, circle things, etc. that just can't be done with a program. Plus, you cannot just let Logos find every reference to a certain word. It's a program (magnificent, to be sure) but it can't deliberate over a dilemma and make a Spirit led choice like I can (like differentiating which servant in Isaiah should be Jesus or Israel, or whether it is referring to both, not to mention all the pronouns and possible synonyms!)

I asked Dale Prichett for the tools to mark the text in Logos almost 20 years ago. I honestly am glad he was not able to offer them at the time, or I might have missed out on a lifetime (2 decades so far) of personal 'One on one' time with my Teacher. Even now, as advanced as the tools have become I would not change for the world!

If you can get your hands on any of the older PUP workbooks and tapes - do it! They are awesome! Unfortunately, Precept has diluted its method over the years in order to accommodate a different audience. You just can't study (the observation part) faster and study as well, but that's the market. I remember Kay saying once that she would rather have just a couple of students who were willing to study inductively and learn truth for themselves than have hundreds of students who just wanted to be spoon fed. I agree. I thank the Lord for Kay's service to God's people.

Sorry this is so long. It's just that there is no greater need than hearing the Word of God!

May God conform you into the image of His Son as you seek Him in His Word.

Sharon

Terry Poperszky

I am assuming you are wanting to use Logos for more of the process than I do

Yes, but I have found that at this time it isn't possible, neither L3 or L4 let me print out the highlighted text and as you have mention lines, arrows and circles are lacking as well. My compromise is to print out my own "observation worksheets" and do my markup on those as well as in Logos. Although my initial readings are all done in L4 and I don't use a paper bible outside of the class room.

If you can get your hands on any of the older PUP workbooks and tapes - do it! They are awesome! Unfortunately, Precept has diluted its method over the years in order to accommodate a different audience.

Well there I am in luck, since my wife did her teacher certification about 20 years ago, I have access to her manuals as well as studies that she has done over the years. I am currently attending 2nd Isaiah class that is being taught at another church, although she does not teach it in the traditional manner.

Sorry this is so long. It's just that there is no greater need than hearing the Word of God!

Unless it is the application of it [:D] As for the length of your reply, it will be one of the shorter things that I have read today. Thank you for taking the time.

Kim Clayton

Thanks for sharing Sharon, I only started learning to use L3 for inductive just a few weeks ago. So I just shared with Terry some things I was taught from another gal to get him started in Logos. I do everything in MSWord then copied it to L3. I did mark the Text in L3 after I marked my Bible and the Observation Worksheet from the study. Like you said every read-thru you find something else.

I do many of the things you stated, I also begin reading the book many week ahead of time. I have been doing the Overview for three weeks now and not near finished. I love holding the Book and may never be a true convert to screen reading.

I am intrigued by some of the things you noted about Kay's studies, I did the PUP study last year of Isaiah and was displeased with the speed-fast and the shallowness of the PUP study even though it took us seven months it was too fast. And so I assume the website Word Center Ministries is yours and I have already looked at some of your studies and I have a question for you, I looked at John, James and Romans and noticed that you don't do an overview-at least in my quick viewing of the files I didn't see that may I ask why? Also, may I ask what is your personal print Bible?

I have some other things to address but I will email you from your site.

Thank you

Kim

Juanita

I taught Precept for almost 20 years, ran out of PUP books and had to start writing my own for my students.

My work flow:

I start by reading the book of the Bible through that I am going to study. (I use my personal print Bible for this.) I will read it through 50-100 times before I go to the next step. Each time I am reading it through with a purpose, marking one thing, and only one thing, each time through. I will many times read the book over several times just looking for one thing. I scour the text. This has obvious benefits in hearing the Word from God. The things I mark are God, Jesus, Spirit, key words, key phrases, time phrases, contrasts & comparisons, terms of conclusions, etc.

Along the way, as I see major segment divisions in the book (which becomes clearer each time I read it through) I mark them.

If I see definite divisions in a chapter, I will mark those, as well, along with chapter themes.

I remember Kay saying once that she would rather have just a couple of students who were willing to study inductively and learn truth for themselves than have hundreds of students who just wanted to be spoon fed. I agree. I thank the Lord for Kay's service to God's people.

Sorry this is so long. It's just that there is no greater need than hearing the Word of God!

May God conform you into the image of His Son as you seek Him in His Word.

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

A quick question or two since you are a busy lady. Perhaps, this should be obvious from your posts but I am unclear. Do you teach others how to do inductive study or are you teaching the results of your inductive study, on a particular book? Or, both, maybe? Second, have you actually written all of what you do down so that it could be published? I hope so since your written words, BTW, carry a very strong anointing. I think you are living out the 2Tim 2:2 that we learned from CCC [:)] . God Bless

Gary Dolan

Do you have word templates for MSWord-arthur, recipient, people, At A Glance - already formatted similar to those in the Inductive Study Bible?

Kim Clayton

Gary, I couldn't tell who you were addressing this too but I will share what I do, because each chart is different in number of chapters it is hard to do just one template in MSWord for all studies because you always have to adapt. So I don't do templates, I do all my charts in a table format and it only takes a few seconds to create a blank one. The At A Glance is all two columns wide and and the number of chapters long-so Phil would be 4 rows down.

The great thing about this is for example in Philippians most of the book is exhortation and instructions so I create the table 3 rows down and four columns wide then I copy all of Phil from Logos and place it at the bottom of the table/chart and then I grab(copy/paste) chapter one and place the whole thing in column one then go thru and delete what isn't an instruction or exhortation. I also color the Text red for exhortation and teal for instructions.

Nicholas B Brindisi

I was referred to this thread, yesterday and I'm glad I followed up! [:D] This is proving to be a treasure trove of insight.

Let's see, if I'm understanding the Observation Phase correctly.

Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to what is in each chapter or book.
Open up a Bible and read.
As I read, ask question of both the text of Scripture and the Holy Spirit. (the 5 W's & H)
Highlight texts, as needed and jot down notes
Repeat the above an x # of times.

I had thought I was supposed to use commentaries when doing this. Hence, I have a saved layout with a bunch of commentaries in one resource pane and my NASB in a seperate resource pane. Due to vision impairment, I use Logos 4 to help with reading my Bible, how can I best set up to do the Observation phase correctly?

John Norman

I typically use 3 panes on a wide screen monitor, a NASB in upper left linked to an interlinear ESV below (goes all the way across screen) and an unlinked 2nd NASB (in upper right) for referance scriptures. My tabs support Websters dictionary, Strongs dictionary, New Treasury of Scripture References, a map, my notes, and a commentary. I check the commentary last. I probably should have a good secular (because this is inductive) history book tab for background information, but have not found one yet...

Simon’s Brother

I had thought I was supposed to use commentaries when doing this.

No commentaries during observation phase. Its all about you reading, asking questions of the text and making notes on you see. Later on you might use a commentary to help you answer some of your questions that you identify during this phase.

Ron

how can I best set up to do the Observation phase correctly?

Hi Nicholas,

Try this set up and see what you think:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/20767.aspx?PageIndex=1

David Beard

You can also check out Morris Proctor's "Inductive Bible Study with Logos Bible Software". He gives you at least three ways to set your Logos program up to study inductive style. It's been very helpful to me.

Giovanni Baggio

" [Kay] Arthur didn't invent Inductive Study, although she might as well have <GRIN>. " Well, she didn't invent it because a MAN invented it...LOL...so she might as well have NOT. I like her book though, I wish it was available in Logos format