Kaye

Thanks for the outline of your study. Is there a precept book in LOGOS that I could work with? I am not sure what the title or type would be.  I tried looking for inductive and precept but my library did not produce anything useful (for this topic anyway).  

FWIW,

I have used the precept study method in the past and I've settled on the "lazy mans way" of precept studying...I color code important words and "like" words to the text is easier to follow....that's it.

Words that are key, places, names, etc...

I'm just not that disclipined... [:D]

Inductive Study is a lot of work, but very rewarding. Before Kay's book, was one by Irving L. Jensen called, Independent Bible Study. It is full of treasures on how to study in this way. I have an old print copy and use it often. It is not in print any more, but the copyright owner, has it as a free download e-book - http://www.scripturetableware.com/free-ebook/

If you feel so inclined, please visit my site - www.inductivebible.net

You are welcome.

And, I too believe the Jensen book would be an excellent addition to the Logos stable of stars...

Thanks, Karen!  I'll keep an eye out for any news on that.  :-)  Always looking for valid ways to dig deeper into God's Word.

Peace,

Kaye

This is cool...like starting our own Pre-Pub!  [:)]

Karen Collins said:

This is Karen Jensen Collins--our family owns the copyright to the Jensen book that Bill Cook referenced above with our link to the free ebook (which is actually just a pdf, not a true ebook). That IS a good suggestion--that we look into Logos making that book available digitally. It's something I've wanted to do with Dad's books, many of which are OP now, but we believe are still marketable.

Karen,

I began using your dad's books decades ago. I was challenged by his innovative approach to analyzing and marking scripture. I started using similar methods in my preparation for teaching my Sunday School class. That became easier after I began using some of the earliest Bible software. The next step was to print out my "analyzed" texts for my class.

Logos software has enhanced my ability to do what your dad's earlier works challenged me to do.

I am very grateful for Irving Jensen and the impact he had on my ability to understand and teach the Bible.  

Thanks for sharing his work with us.

Michael Krogstad

Thanks everybody! I really enjoy the threads that lead to study method!

I have started an inductive blog site for one our men's bible studies at church. Men Of Courage. It's in its infancy, but I plan to add instructions. The site is geared toward letting the men correspond throughout the week as we go through study handouts.

To the original poster, my advise is to get as many different books of bible study methods as you can handle. I am an enthusiast when it comes to these books! I have found that they all offer up something unique. For me, these kinds of books are second only to the bible itself!

Kaye Anderson said:

I have a Precept book and I am working through it to get used to the study style

Kay,I have bought the NASB bible which is dsigned for the inductive study bible method recommended by Kay Arthur  before 7years ,could you tell me what they have now?

Terry, to answer your 'workflow' question.  First I would like to say that I don't have Logos 4, I have L3 and have been doing the PUP studies for many years  just started learning to use L3.

Here is my workflow

Following the PUP study instructions-when you are a beginner don't  skip a step in the instructions it has a ripple affect as you become familiar there are some time savers. 

I make my chart/lists in MSWord-arthur, recipient, people, At A Glance - Then copy/paste to Logos Notes, I only answer questions in the actual PUP book.  But I will be transfer that to the Notes so everything will be there (not sure how yet)  All the work is done in MSWord and copied to the Notes.  My lesson plan (teaching guide) will also be in the notes. You just have to remember that as you continue in your study you will make changes to the charts/lists-so get in the habit of changing in MSWord then copy to Logos Notes.

Suggestion for Note organization -Color code the Notes

Green for the Overview, I do all the charts in MSWord, open a Note in Logos and copy and paste my charts to the Green Notes

Purple Note for all things about God

Red Note Lesson 1, L2, L3

I hope this helps, as I said I am just getting started with using Logos for PUP studies.  As far as I know there are no study books available at this time within Logos but at the Precept Leaders site there was talk of the possibility.

To those looking to dig deeper I would like to encourage you to continue using the PUP studies which allows you to dig, sometimes the encouragement from a group discussion spurs you on to dig, also using the DVD lectures that Precept offers give you additional insight.  For myself, if I don't feel I am getting much from the book it is usually because I am not completing the assignments from the PUP workbook or I am not meditatively praying the Text.

When I trained to be a Precept Leader I sat beside pastors who had went to seminary and were in 'awe' of the inductive process.

Karen, thank you, for the download, I just purchased your Dad's book, Jensen's Bible Study Charts.

Hi Terry,

Blessed to hear about you seeking to feed God's children.

I taught Precept for almost 20 years, ran out of PUP books and had to start writing my own for my students.

My work flow:

I start by reading the book of the Bible through that I am going to study.  (I use my personal print Bible for this.)  I will read it through 50-100 times before I go to the next step.  Each time I am reading it through with a purpose, marking one thing, and only one thing, each time through.  I will many times read the book over several times just looking for one thing.  I scour the text.  This has obvious benefits in hearing the Word from God.  The things I mark are God, Jesus, Spirit, key words, key phrases, time phrases, contrasts & comparisons, terms of conclusions, etc.

Along the way, as I see major segment divisions in the book (which becomes clearer each time I read it through) I mark them.

If I see definite divisions in a chapter, I will mark those, as well, along with chapter themes.

It takes me a few months on just this first step of observing the text.  It is not boring at all.  It is exciting because God's Word is Spirit and Truth and so I see soooo many more things doing it this way that it is almost impossible to believe unless one has done it themselves.  And of course, as God is speaking to me the whole time, He is calling me to other passages, revealing connections within the text, etc.

Once the initial observations are made (and yes, my Bibles get pretty used - but then, they have become my familiar friends, as well), I then put Logos under the hood and drive full steam ahead.  This is when I use Logos to define word meanings, locate additional cross-references, create charts, etc.

Finally, if there is ever a 'finally' when studying a book of the Lord's, when I am ready to teach, I use Logos to accumulate my findings and save it in Word.  I use this accumulation as a commentary whenever I teach the same book again.

I teach from my Bible alone.  After spending so much time with the Lord in it, He leads me through each book, verse by verse, word by word, supernaturally reminding me what He has taught me.  And of course, He uses the notes "We" have made in my Bible to help me, too.

This whole process definitely takes times.  It took over two years to study and teach Revelation, and another two years for Romans, etc.  Isaiah has taken me 4 years and I am still studying and teaching it!  There are only a few books I have not studied to "teach" (which is a whole other thing than studying to "learn") and most I have taught many times.  I can count on needing 50-60 hours per week of study.  Each time I try to start fresh, but of course, each time is easier and faster than the time before.

I am assuming you are wanting to use Logos for more of the process than I do.  The reason I do not is simply this--I don't believe I can possibly do, with Logos, what I can do with my hands and eyes, focusing just on the Word alone for that first step.  I draw arrows all over, circle things, etc. that just can't be done with a program.  Plus, you cannot just let Logos find every reference to a certain word.  It's a program (magnificent, to be sure) but it can't deliberate over a dilemma and make a Spirit led choice like I can (like differentiating which servant in Isaiah should be Jesus or Israel, or whether it is referring to both, not to mention all the pronouns and possible synonyms!)

I asked Dale Prichett for the tools to mark the text in Logos almost 20 years ago.  I honestly am glad he was not able to offer them at the time, or I might have missed out on a lifetime (2 decades so far) of personal 'One on one' time with my Teacher.  Even now, as advanced as the tools have become I would not change for the world!

If you can get your hands on any of the older PUP workbooks and tapes - do it!  They are awesome!  Unfortunately, Precept has diluted its method over the years in order to accommodate a different audience.  You just can't study (the observation part) faster and study as well, but that's the market.  I remember Kay saying once that she would rather have just a couple of students who were willing to study inductively and learn truth for themselves than have hundreds of students who just wanted to be spoon fed.  I agree.  I thank the Lord for Kay's service to God's people.

Sorry this is so long.  It's just that there is no greater need than hearing the Word of God!

May God conform you into the image of His Son as you seek Him in His Word.

Sharon

Thanks for sharing Sharon, I only started learning to use L3 for inductive just a few weeks ago. So I just shared with Terry some things I was taught from another gal to get him started in Logos.  I do everything in MSWord then copied it to L3. I did mark the Text in L3 after I marked my Bible and the Observation Worksheet from the study. Like you said every read-thru you find something else.

I do many of the things you stated, I also begin reading the book many week ahead of time.   I have been doing the Overview for three weeks now and not near finished.  I love holding the Book and may never be a true convert to screen reading.

I am intrigued by some of the things you noted about Kay's studies, I did the PUP study last year of Isaiah and was displeased with the speed-fast and the shallowness of the PUP study even though it took us seven months it was too fast.  And so I assume the website Word Center Ministries is yours and I have already looked at some of your studies and I have a question for you, I looked at John, James and Romans and noticed that you don't do an overview-at least in my quick viewing of the files I didn't see that may I ask why?  Also, may I ask what is your personal print Bible?

I have some other things to address but I will email you from your site.

Thank you

Kim

KimClayton said:

And so I assume the website Word Center Ministries is yours and I have already looked at some of your studies and I have a question for you, I looked at John, James and Romans and noticed that you don't do an overview-at least in my quick viewing of the files I didn't see that may I ask why?

Hi Kim!

Yes, that is our Ministry website.  We just started putting materials online last year and we are finding it a daunting task to push everything into a format for the web.  We didn't know a thing about websites, etc. (still don't know much) but we ordered a video called Web Expressions and just started trying.  Therefore, much is left to do!

As far as the overviews, it is not because they aren't important - they are!  And it's not because I don't do them - I do!  It is just that for now, the thing I believe most students (of mine through the years) have had trouble with is the observation part.  And if they don't get that part, then nothing else is going to have the needed context.  So, I have started with the Observation Guides.  I don't ask every single W & H, but I ask a lot of them - verse by verse and sometimes word by word.  Our hope is to teach by repetition the skill of observation.  Once people come to the knowledge that they can ask those same questions (the questions that the text has answers for) themselves - we are thrilled!  We want to magnify the Word of God so that others may see Him!

In the audio teachings, I usually do an overview.  And in some of the courses, like Isaiah, for instance, the overview is a whole course by itself, which takes months.  And then Isaiah also has a Prequel course that takes several more months.  I also believe that with the observation process, many parts of the overview will start to come into focus.

Our goal is not to reinvent the wheel - I think Precept is the wheel of Bible Study.  Our hope would be to fill in a small niche that might be helpful.  As I have looked at Bible Studies, it seems that too many are all about asking a few summary type questions and then asking how that applies to your life.  What we are trying to supply is the art of observing the text completely.  I believe our studies can be great companions to other Bible Studies and need not be used separately.  Like the Irving Jensen materials--I use those each and every time I teach a book!  He has great overview charts.  Sometimes I come up with something I think is "better", but most of the time, I learn so much that I assimilate at least part of his into mine.

Anyway, because we don't have everything on the web, and because we can only do one part at a time, this is the part we are focusing on.  Hope that explains.

KimClayton said:

Also, may I ask what is your personal print Bible?

I use an NASB 95 update, IISB.  I wish it were available in the older larger font that Precept used to sell, but it's not.  My Bible weights 3 pounds and the old one weighed 4 pounds.  Most people just did not want the extra weight.  For me, it was an okay trade off to get the larger font and the wider margins.  I have looked online several times and have not found the 95 update in large print and wide margins without the publisher's comments taking up MY space![:O]  But I always keep an eye out for that perfect one![8-|]

KimClayton said:

I have some other things to address but I will email you from your site.

I will look forward to hearing from you!

In Him,

Sharon

KimClayton said:

I love holding the Book and may never be a true convert to screen reading.

PS  Me, too! [;)]

Sharon said:

FYI -  Did you know that the word for anoint means to smear?  You probably do since you love word studies.  We took a lot of trees down one year and the ones that were not to be cut were anointed - marked with paint for identification purposes.  The man on the bulldozer could see each and every tree to take down or to leave.  And yet, he took down many that were not to be destroyed.  It was heart-breaking looking at those beautiful trees lying broken on the ground with a big red "x" on them.  They were sacrificed for that man's convenience.

I couldn't help but think of Jesus, everything He did... everything He said... everything about Him was like a huge red mark declaring, "This is the One.  He is My Son!  I have sent Him!  Listen to Him!  Hear Him!"  And yet the people paid no attention to His anointing and they cut Him down...    

Even in His death, even today, the bloody red smear still shouts, "This is the Coming One!  This is the Promised One!  This is the Anointed One!  This is the Messiah!"  If people would only open their eyes to see Him, they would see His anointing and KNOW He is the Christ!

Thanks for that information.

I will use it this week in my SS class (postponed because of last week's ice!). The passage where the Roman centurion shouts "Truly, this was the Son of God." 

Do you have word templates for MSWord-arthur, recipient, people, At A Glance - already formatted similar to those in the Inductive Study Bible?

Kaye Anderson said:

I have Kay Arthur's book mentioned above on my Kindle and I have two of her study guides (Daniel and Revelation) in print.  I didn't feel like I was getting all I could from the study using the book as a first timer so I went to her website, found archives and downloaded her 50 30-minute audio lessons on Daniel.  It took a bit to download them but I also got the study guide and have been using them with much better success...and they were all free!

Hi Kaye (I hope you are still around), can you point me to those audio lessons on Kay Arthur's site?  I've looked around there, but only see audio lessons available for purchase in the store...and even the Daniel ones available for purchase don't total up to 50 lessons unless I'm missing something.  Thanks!

MJ. Smith said:

Okay, what does PUP stand for?

Precept upon precept

MJ. Smith said:

I'm also curious about this statement. Mind you, I only have an overview understanding of MacArthur's work. But with the combination of the diagramming and highlighting tools, what does the Precept model do that can't be done in Logos? And when evaluating the reference list, why don't you find Logos conducive to Spirit-led discernment? I'm curious because your comments make me think that I may be misunderstanding Precept Bible study - and Bible study methods and techniques fascinate me.

I assume you mean Kay Arthur, not MacArthur?

While I can't speak for Sharon, I believe what was meant by the comment is that by doing the precept observation in Logos, there is often a temptation to let the program do most of the work for you (i.e. having it find and highlight all the pronouns, keywords, etc) rather than searching and finding them for yourself.

Ted Hans said:

For those interested, Jensen's Survey of the Old and New Testament is available in Logos http://www.logos.com/products/details/4499

Just some further information the NT volume is on special through March Madness....Maybe they will take some money off the set if you buy it....since part of the set is on special....

I guess my question was more challenging the concept rather than a genuine inquisitiveness. I've come to the conclusion that study guides are not really inductive. The line of questioning is geared to draw you to the author's conclusions. The only benefit I see that comes from them is to teach you the things you should be looking for in any given text (cultural, linguistic, theological) so that you are able to move beyond the guides and use Logos4 [:D] to deepen and enhance your study. You progress to use your Bible dictionary/encyclopedia, Greek/Hebrew tools and develop your own methodology.

In Christ,

Jonathan

The study guides keep you on track, keep you focused on what the context of the book is really about-the theme.  Many people will not attempt a study without something-a book or these study guides.  Many who do inductive studies using Kay's PUP Study guides do eventually begin to do there own.  I did Isaiah last year and each week shared with the class many wonderful nuggets from the Text that Kay said nothing about.  Now, with that being said, the Precept study guides don't make any claim that they reveal all that the Text of Isaiah has to say, but it was the first PUP study in which I was very disappointed with because I thought many valuable truths regarding God's attributes in Isaiah were not even mentioned. I think the study ought to be renamed as an IN & Out study.

I would also like to point out these studies point people in the right direction-especially people with reading handycaps.  I have a reading comprehension 'problem' and learning the inductive method actually helped my overall reading skills in all other kinds of genre.

MJ. Smith said:

Sharon said:

PUP books

Okay, what does PUP stand for?

Boy, am I behind or what!!!  I am under several heavy deadlines and will be so for awhile and have not been following even my own discussions.  I saw this a few days back and am just now able to answer.  If it is okay, I'd like to wait and answer the other 2-3 questions you have in a later post because I am swamped tonight as usual.  I will tackle the easy one first.  [:P]

I see you already have the answer - Precept Upon Precept.  I'll elaborate a little on that.  It USED to be, 10-20 years ago, that Precept had three basic style study guides.  One was called, "In and Out" with the idea that you were, as you did the study, supposed to "take it in and live it out".  These required 1-2 hours per week (although I believe, in all reality, it only took about 45 minutes).  Their hope was that as you took in the Word and lived out the Word, you would gradually want more and actually need more (kinda like metabolism - you need more calories as you burn calories - and as you increase your metabolism you need more calories to sustain the level you are at).  "Precept Upon Precept" required 7 hours per week.

They also had a third study guide.  These were for children and were called "Line Upon Line".  I actually thought these were better than the "In and Out" for adults.

Leaders were expected to spend at least 20 per week on each course they taught, whether PUP, LUL, or IO.

After a year or so, I decided not to offer the "In and Out" guides at all to my students simply because EVERYONE needs more than what they offered.  If people thought they could sustain themselves doing just a little bit of studying they were deceiving themselves.  It was like saying all you need to eat is just a snack a day.  It was not sufficient.  Therefore, I called my students to a greater commitment.  Most of them rose to the challenge.  Most of those who had only been doing IO were pleasantly surprised at how much more they learned when doing PUP simply because of spending so much more time in God's Word.

These courses were augmented with training workshops held around the country which equipped people with study tools such as doing word studies, structuring, advanced leader's training, how to study topical studies, how to study a difficult subject, etc.

Much has stayed the same with Precept, but some has changed.  They constantly offer various workshops to accommodate the returning students.  One of the things that has changed is that the discipline expected, the commitment required, and the work itself has been diluted.  Unfortunately, and I think at least partially due to the popularity of these shorter and
"easier" courses themselves, the ministry does not seem to be heading back to their original standards.

Shortly before the lowering of the bar began, I found that I had taught all the Precept courses available, and started writing my own, for myself and for my students.  I have not taught a Precept course for over 10 years now, yet I still
bless the Lord for their ministry.  To be weaned from the study guides is what Precept encouraged from their leaders - keep growing in God's Word precept by precept into greater and greater maturity.

The method, the "old" way, was excellent and indeed, encouraged and exhorted students to excel still more.  The method, the "new" way, is lacking, IMHO, and although there is still a great harvest from the ministry, I fear, at times, something is wrong with much of the crop...

And I'm sure you have already ascertained that their studies (PUP, IO, and LUL) are taken from Isaiah and their logo is taken from Amos.  The interesting thing (on a side note) is that Isaiah's reference is definitely not a compliment, and neither is the vision in Amos.

I'm not here to do any PR work for Precept, although if someone is steered their way, I believe they will greatly benefit.  I am here to say that the method itself, inductive, is not just good, but fabulous.  It works - IF the student will do the work.  Precept's focus on inductive study throughout the years has consistently been  the necessity that the Bible be your primary source - I pray that will always remain so.

Gotta go!

Sorry Precept 101 (my version) got so long!