Ownership of Logos in a family

My wife will be soon be given a computer as a gift. Am I allowed to let her download and use my Logos account on her computer?

From what I heard in the past, my Logos account was permitted to be used on any computer that I owned.

Can someone clarify?

Thanks

Shmuel

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

BillS

Hopefully, others will clarify & link to Bob's comments.

But as I understand it, Logos is a single user license. (She'd have to log in to your account.) Since the philosophy is single user, settings are synced for that single user. (You'd either have to coordinate on how you want the desktop to be left / start up, or else accept at startup whatever each other last left open.)

That said, Bob once said that to him, casual use by husband/wife looked to him like one user. But a husband & wife who were both pastors each needed their own license, as use wasn't casual.

You'll have to judge where on that continuum your/your wife's use fill fall. And Bob may have said something after what I remembered, as that's at least a few years ago, now--early L4 timeframe.

Blessings on your good fortune!

David Paul

This is a foggy area...by design. The official Logos stance is that the licenses are user specific. If your wife has a separate log in (with her own sets of notes, etc.) she would probably be a different user. If she is only using the program occasionally and using it under your log in, then that is okay. At least that is how I understand it.

Rosie Perera

Yup, as the others have said, it's kind of fuzzy, kind of a spirit of the law vs. letter of the law thing, and Logos isn't going to come tracking people down about it, but use your conscience. Here's Bob's take on interpretation of the license agreement:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265

(others: you can always find that again if you need to link to it, by clicking "Logos Speaks" on the home page of the wiki and then looking for "Company Attitude and Policy" on Licensing: "Logos’ EULA—Single user" -- it's at the top of the page since it gets asked about so often)

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471171#Comment_471171

Let me add that this is where I have some conceptual resistance to the "individual license" concept. I understand it in theory--up to a point. A husband and wife each have their own Bibles, obviously. But once you start talking about high ticket, multi-volume resources like ICC, AYB, WBC, NICOT/NT, etc., the concept really starts to break down logically. First of all, when these resources were first produced from a historical perspective, the publishers generally understood that they were going to be produced for a very limited market, primarily the libraries of seminaries and some universities. Only a rarified few individuals would purchase such resources for their own use.

Times change, of course, and with the advent of computers and hyperlinks...the Bible study game changed immensely. Because the payoff for time invested exploded exponentially, the motivation to have one's own access to a massive library of hyperlinked Bible-related data likewise mushroomed. Yes, the technology increased the value of the resources immeasurably, which thus motivates the interest that individuals have in accessing these resources. Fine. But there is another side of this actuality. MORE PEOPLE NOW WANT TO PURCHASE materials that were once published only in the thousands of copies. Besides that, there is the long hashed and rehashed issue of the digital footprint, or absence thereof. Yes, there is an significant support cost in creating and maintaining digital resources--no one denies that--but on some level that cost begins to recede compared to the constant cost of warehousing, shipping, and other logistical considerations associated with tangible resources.

My point is, it is really well past absurd for resource providers (content and digital publishers) to expect a family to fork over hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a digital resource, like ICC, and then insist that they can't use it in the same way they would if it was a hard copy purchase, i.e. every person in the family can use it anytime they choose. Yes, in digital they can all use the same volume simultaneously, which can't necessarily happen with a hard copy, but that is not a materially pertinent point. The primary point is this: ENCYCLOPEDIAS are DESIGNED to be used by multiple users in the real world. The logic of the current (digital) state of affairs, which brings a much larger pool of potential users into the mix, should cause the prices of such resources to drop significantly, if not dramatically. And there really is nothing about digital experience that ought to necessitate a change in the expected user pattern of a resource such as an encyclopedia. There just isn't.

In my opinion, there should be a certain point at which the cost of a resource brings with it a multi-user license. I'm not going to try to micro-manage that discussion here, but on resources that exceed more than a couple of hundred dollars, there should be such an option. Perhaps, within a certain range, the purchaser could pay a nominal amount to get a multi-user license. Above a certain level it should be automatic, imo. On one level, there is the question of how do you keep track of who is using these resources. I ask...does it matter? I personally don't see why Logos can't routinely keep track of this in exactly the same way they already do, but with some minor database (software) architecture adjustments.

What I mean is, why can't ICC automatically come with a 5-user (for instance) license? But not just that...why do the users who sign onto that license have to even know each other? Why can't I just be one of five random folks who call in and get signed up with four others for the license to use "one" set of ICC volumes? What this does is make access available to many more individuals while not placing the utterly absurd one-per-customer expectation (with its incumbent cost) on the license-holding consumer. Just to remake the point--NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF ENCYCLOPEDIAS has their been such a ridiculous requirement.

To wrap up, let me make a parallel point. I have over 6,500 resources at a nearly $20K investment cost. The only reason I ever considered making such an enormous outlay is because of what I got in return...and I have thousands of resources I haven't and may never use. The thing that motivated my purchases was VALUE. I was able to get what I have primarily due to the base package, CP, and PrePub mechanisms that Logos employs. If I had paid the same amount, but only received 1000 resources rather than the 6,500 I currently have, well...the fact is I probably wouldn't have those resources nor would I have paid out anything at all. The cost per resource would simply be prohibitive, in my mind. My point is, as long as I get incredible value on my investment, then I will continue investing...I will continue to send Logos a large hunk of my shockingly small income.

If people could call in and get ICC for $300 rather than $1750, essentially "pitching in" with 4-5 other random purchasers, then two things would happen--more ICCs would fly off the shelf, and more people would have access to that significant resource. Win-win.

At least, that's how I see it...

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471180#Comment_471180

You make some interesting arguments for expensive,multi-volume sets which is why I think Logos' stance of not emphasizing the letter of the law is a good one. My wife doesn't do as much Bible study and reading that I do but occasionally she does want to prepare for a Bible study.

Right now I have a large paper library that she uses but we are planning to down-size and I will be selling or giving away most of that library. With that in mind I plan to share my Logos resources by allowing her to use my computer for occasional use and I think this totally fits into the spirit of the law. I'm still the owner but once in a while she may access and use my books.

In addition to this I seldom read fiction but have downloaded quite a few fiction books from Vyrso that I intend to let my wife read. I fully anticipate that I will end up buying more fiction books from Vyrso which I would have never purchased on my own. The whole reason why they offer free books is to encourage the purchase of more books so to me this is a win for Logos as well.

In conclusion I believe what I do and am planning to do fully fits within the spirit of the Logos license. I am the owner but occasionally I share my computer with my wife.

Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471207#Comment_471207

I personally try to view it in terms of personal/professional, as mentioned above. The fact is that as husband and wife, it's not like we ever go out and buy two separate copies of books that we want to read, ya know?

I don't treat Logos any differently since I am the one with the license who uses it as intended, but my husband sometimes wants to read one of the books. No need to be downloading Logos 5 separately for that! Just as he can walk in and grab a book off my shelf in my office, he can log in as me and read a book in my library.

Room4more

My wife will be soon be given a computer as a gift. Am I allowed to let her download and use my Logos account on her computer?

From what I heard in the past, my Logos account was permitted to be used on any computer that I owned.

Can someone clarify?

Thanks

Shmuel

Here's my take: You own both, AND YOU use both(?).

So in reality the question becomes: Will she be doing the same study as you? Will anything she does while logged in on your account on HER computer effect what happens when you log in on yours[sync], also will you both be logged in @ the same time? There really is a fine and very thin line that can only be defined truely by the User themeslves.

R4m

Kevin Maples

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471210#Comment_471210

I think it is a heart issue. If someone is trying to steal resources that is one thing, but allowing your wife to causally read your books seems perfectly reasonable to me. My wife has my Logos account on her kindle fire, but I don't know that she has read a book yet that wasn't a free purchase on the Vyrso site. I suppose if I wanted to follow the exact letter of the law, I would tell her to open her own Logos account and go to Vyrso everyday to see what books are free that day and download them herself, but that seems ridiculous.

I know that the user license is non-negotiable. You either agree and get the resource or you don't. But it seems unreasonable to me to impose any restriction upon a digital resource that is not related to a print resource. For example, I should be able to loan a book to someone like I do all the time with my print books, but I can't. That seems to me to be unreasonable. I understand controlling piracy, but if Logos were set up like the Kindle where you can loan a book and the owner can't use it while it is on loan to someone else then that would mimic what we do with print books.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471226#Comment_471226

I don't think married couples should get benefits like this.

Like what that is relevant for this discussion?:

Being married changes a lot of things.

I repeat my question: why should married couples get deep "discounts"? Why are they unable to pay the full price? And I fail to see how married couples getting advantages results in more sales?:

If people could call in and get ICC for $300 rather than $1750, essentially "pitching in" with 4-5 other random purchasers, then two things would happen--more ICCs would fly off the shelf, and more people would have access to that significant resource. Win-win.
At least, that's how I see it...

"and the two shall become one flesh..." physically, this is impossible. Yet spiritually, totally congruent within the realms of the Scriptural content....
I disagree. Being married changes a lot of things.

I guess only thing I'm missing is automatically sharing notes and highlightings, but luckily those files can be shared through the Faithlife system.

R4M, that's not important to me. If I would be married and she would want to use Logos I would make her pay her own licenses. I don't want someone to turn pages in my books, I don't necessarily want discussions about which books I have, I don't want to boast so I don't want her to see how many books I have, I don't want a joint economy, I would never force take payment for my books from her but I could consider paying some of her books. I would want to see which books she finds worthwhile to "duplicate" to see if those are more valuable to me too than I thought at first and to discuss them together. Additionally, I have never been together with a woman who is as good at English as myself, so if I would get married it looks like the woman would probably not read all the same books as me. I'm only concerned what happens with my books, notes and highlightings when I get too old, I'll choose a good, younger friend who will make good use of them and continue to develop the library. Fr. Charles R. Matheny has a similar concern:

The program and resources are for her to you use if she so deisres.
All the above are products of a happy Marriage Life....

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471228#Comment_471228

I don't think married couples should get benefits like this.

I disagree. Being married changes a lot of things.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471228#Comment_471228

I don't think married couples should get benefits like this.

I'm thankful that Bob is the CEO of Logos.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471229#Comment_471229

I disagree. Being married changes a lot of things.

[;)] [Y]

"and the two shall become one flesh..." physically, this is impossible. Yet spiritually, totally congruent within the realms of the Scriptural content....

Kevin Maples

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471232#Comment_471232

"and the two shall become one flesh..."

I was thinking the same thing. [:)]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471232#Comment_471232

This thread is another good example of why one needs to maintain a good library of actual books. My books are owned, they can be loaned, used by others, traded and handed down to others when I die.

With logos, we don't own anything-literally.

The design is such that the investment is to be continual by the individual and stops with them with no residual usage. My grandchildren will not get use of my purchases nor any notes made in Logos, they will have to start over.

This is actually a larger issue than many think today. Part of being a human being is the ability to hand on knowledge generationally , it's why we have computers, architecture , medical facilities and procedures etc. Part of this "handing on" has been in notes, files, thoughts jotted down, unfinished formulas etc. etc.

The computing age is removing that from us, hard drives being reformatted rather than notes saved.

Logos is no different.

People will say: I will leave it is a will to my family. Ok, who gets your notes, who wants them, who will read them, know how to access them?

Logos owns own notes as well as our library, as do most companies today. Nothing is ours in this arena, nothing gets passed on really, not any more.

Last Corp. Ministry I was with , actually came and replaced everyone computers and "decided" what would get saved and moved over to the new ones, everything else was erased in reformatting for recycling .

We are basically the first generation , in mass, to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on things we cannot own and, we are proud of it, boast of it.

Strange huh?

Smile.

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471228#Comment_471228

I repeat my question: why should married couples get deep "discounts"?

I am married but don't get discounts or any other preferred status.

I have never been asked by Logos whether or not I am married. Have you?

When I did get discounts the Logos sales people had permission to do so and it applied to any customer. My understanding is that this is no longer the case. The days of Logos sales people being authorized to give discounts without prior permission from their supervisors are long gone.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471228#Comment_471228

Unix,

In a brief to your recently editted post:

I alone have the Logos License.

I get discount due to my years of dedicated purcahses[sometimes not so dedicated as locale dictates]

My Beautiful Bride has the advantage of using any of the multiple systems that I have, even tho she has a clone and uses it for her ""stuff"". As Admin I keep it current and most of all clean.....

The program and resources are for her to you use if she so deisres.

All the above are products of a happy Marriage Life....

Kevin Maples

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471242#Comment_471242

My grandchildren will not get use of my purchases

You can transfer them to your grandchildren or anyone else for a $20 transfer fee. So you might want to look at including your Logos library in your will.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471246#Comment_471246

Kevin: Or you can put your username and password in an envelope along with your will... Specify who the envelope goes to, and voila, free transfer :P.

Obviously you wouldn't want to transfer this way to your great step nephew by marriage, as the account will still be linked to your credit card. However, if its going to your spouse, or the executor of your will (a child perhaps?) - then what difference does that make? just include directions on how to change the CC on the account.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471257#Comment_471257

I will definitely include Logos in my will. The $20 transfer fee seem more than reasonable to charge. I may even include a $20 bill in my will to go to the individual to cover the transfer fee.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471243#Comment_471243

I repeat my question: why should married couples get deep "discounts"?

They aren't really. Marriage is where two people become one - thus I don't see a problem with it. Were I living with my parents still at this point in my life, I would probably let them use it (very casual use, if they even ever turned it on) as well... If you are all living together, its not much different from them just using your computer and going on Logos. My mom teaches sunday school - to 4 and 5 year olds. I suspect WBC would be a bit outside of the league of her audience. However, there are a number of devotionals and so forth that she might find of use, or else a study bible (she currently uses my old MacArthur's, and has worn out the leather binding). I would guess she only spends about 4 hours a week preparing her sunday school lesson and most of that is figuring out the project and picking up the snack.

If she were ever to become a pastor (which is unlikely in our faith tradition), then I'd tell her to get her own. Here is the crux of the issue: Paper books can only be held by one person at a time (unless you are a married couple, and don't mind getting cozy). Digital books in the current schema of Logos, can be held by as many different people as you install your software on. This technical capability (though against the law) puts an E-Book in an entirely different class. IF Logos were to institute some sort of check in, check out, functionality (while annoying) it could allow for multiple people to use the same library, just so long as there is only one person reading any given book at any given time.

Drawbacks: If I am reading a book on my ipad (not uncommon) and don't "check it in", when I go on my laptop the hypothetical book in question would still be "on" my ipad, and thus unavailable to my desktop. Expanding this - if my hypothetical family (spouse/parents/kids) each had access, and each occasionally pulled a book without putting it back, it could be a hassle to track down their machine, manually find the book, and check it back in. There are ways around this (when logos app closes, books in use are automatically "checked in"), and so forth...

But really, I think the existing paradigm is better. We tell Logos we will only install it on our own computers, and disallow anyone from using it whom we wouldn't trust with our credit card. They wink and nod when a spouse uses it, or a parent, or a child - casually - and life goes on.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471264#Comment_471264

All of this seems like a good reason to find some tool to use as an alternative to notes:

Evernote
OneNote
Open Office/Libre Office
etc.

Then husband and wives would not need to share notes. I have also set up a separate Layout for my wife to use - focusing on the books she has expressed interest in.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471264#Comment_471264

My mom teaches sunday school - to 4 and 5 year olds. I suspect WBC would be a bit outside of the league of her audience.

I had to chuckle when I read this. I needed a laugh today.

Daniel Bender

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471230#Comment_471230

I'm thankful that Bob is the CEO of Logos.

[Y][Y]

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471295#Comment_471295

All could be solved quite reasonably if the Logos software contained an ability for the user to transfer the license for a book or collection to another user without having to involve the time (and hence expense) of someone at the Logos offices to make the transfer for them. Ideally this would include the option to transfer the license permanently or just to "loan it" for a specified period (week, 4 weeks etc). The ability to add and remove licenses already exists, as does the ability of Logos servers to keep a record of such transfers so that none inadvertenly disappear permanently into the ether. The coding to make such a feature a reality would not come "free' unless a group of Logos programmers wanted to donate their time, but it might be possible to have the feature in a future version.

That feature would make these expensive electronic libraries much more similar to a hard copy investment and would actually encourage more sales (eg; a church may be much more inclined to buy an additional set of commentaries if all of the staff could access it, as they would be able to for hard copies in the Library, much more likely than having a set resticted to only one of the staff.). If I look at the resource needs of the local church, everyone probably needs copies of several different bible translations, but to say everyone needs their own copy of the full WBC or AYBC or NICOT/NT just because they are all pastors does not make sense to the members who have to fund same, hence when it comes to a decision, it is to provide a dead tree copy for everyone to use and NOT to provide commentary sets in Logos to anyone. Providing a means to loan/borrow/transfer licenses easily, particularly for commentary sets and small group studies (and ideally temporarily for a specific project or sermon prep, not just the permanent $20 per transaction mode available currently) is probably the only way to remove what is currently a significant barrier to additional high ticket item sales. I would even dare to suggest that a one time fee for an add-on module allowing such transfers and loans for say $50 per user would be a possible way of funding the programming if it were not something tht every user would want in the next version.

While I like the current way Bob has established the license rules, (compared to many other software companies) it does restrict significantly what the church is willing to buy in Logos large-ticket-item sets, which is not a win-win for anyone. All of our team have their own Logos licenses with multiple resources, but few if any commentary sets (save the very inexpensive ones from Nelson etc). We could take more of the Logos commentary sets if they could be shared (ie: loaned internally, one user per volume at a time, as with a dead tree copy from our wooden shelf libary).

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471295#Comment_471295

My mom teaches sunday school - to 4 and 5 year olds. I suspect WBC would be a bit outside of the league of her audience.

Agree: we don't even allow them to touch a WBC commentary until they are in Grade One.....

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/471323#Comment_471323

Thanks for transfer info,.