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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 11:18 AM

 

Hi George, okay sorry do me a favour by editing the reference to you from my post on your quote & i will do the same. I do like you & should be thoughful next time. I was referencing the King Henry joke when you said off with their heads(wives heads). The Anglican joke.

Sir T.

 

 

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Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 1:41 PM

It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 1:59 PM

RQuanstrom:

It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.

I sincerely hope you aren't serious.  While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources.  If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use.  24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say.  Use your head.  That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor. 

Tell your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want.  I don't think Bob will object.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 2:20 PM

RQuanstrom:

It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.

George Somsel:

I sincerely hope you aren't serious.  While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources.  If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use.  24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say.  Use your head.  That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor. 

Tell your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want.  I don't think Bob will object

 

Okay George last time you were right on the EULA & i should have listened. So this time i will take your word on this, & thanks for your kind response to my previous post.

Sir T.

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 2:50 PM
Fwiw, imo you're ok letting your wife & kids use it, as long as none of them are Bible college students or in some kind of fulltime ministry. "Joint property" laws apply for things like L licences in estate proceedings - but a "license" is not inherently joint property - ask any policeman or game warden. After having many phone conversations about this with L staff over the years, and seeing the text of the Eula change more than once, it's obvious that they are stuggling to find a fair approach. Keep in mind they have obligations to the people who license the books to them, to enforce a policy that is fair to the copyright owner. My recommendation is, buy at least one extra license, maybe for the Bible Study pkg, just to be fair. So, my "opinion" is that if you adhere to the #computers rule, and if there is rarely or never a time that you and your spouse are using it at the same time, and none of the other users are doing it as a "profession", as george said, I doubt that Bob would object - in person. However, I'm 99% confident thati pressed, he WiLL "lay down the law" in writing. And it won't be pretty. It might be wise to consider terminating this thread for that very reason :-)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 3:45 PM

RQuanstrom:

It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.

HeeHee Stick out tongue

My kids aren't trying to use Logos. They are usually doing something that downloads spyware or ActiveX controls like Yahoo questions, Club Penguin, Facebook,  Roblox, Sketchup, Google earth...................THATS why I got the dobermans chained to the desktop.

My wife likes BOOKS, not computers. She was more than a little unhappy when I sold The Complete Biblical Library. If I can only show her Logos does all that and more. Too bad it's all on computer

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 3:57 PM

George Somsel:
While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources.  If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use.  24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say.  Use your head.  That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor. 

So the Literal meaning of the EULA says  we can't share the software with family.

But the Dynamic Equivalence says

George Somsel:
your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want.  I don't think Bob will object

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 4:36 PM

Matthew C Jones:

George Somsel:
While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources.  If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use.  24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say.  Use your head.  That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor. 

So the Literal meaning of the EULA says  we can't share the software with family.

But the Dynamic Equivalence says

George Somsel:
your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want.  I don't think Bob will object

I prefer to call it the "non-Pharisaical meaning."

23 One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?” 25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food? 26 He entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Mk 2:23-28). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2009 10:10 PM

JimDean:
"Joint property" laws apply for things like L licences in estate proceedings - but a "license" is not inherently joint property - ask any policeman or game warden.

Despite the caveat that "Joint property" laws apply for things like L licences in estate proceedings, I have checked on this from my end - a "license" can also be an inherently joint property, the possibility does exist. Perhaps our laws in the UK are different from the US.

Hi Jim, i am not sure who you were directing your post to, if it was to everyone on this thread or someone in particular. It may be helpful to include a quote so that one can follow who & what is being responded to.

Every Blessings.

Ted

 

 

 

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 4:21 AM

Hi, Ted:

The post was not directed to anyone in particular, just an attempt to defuse the tension and to help people to be content with what the Lord has provided them through the hard work of the folks at Libronix, and through the many godly people who've written the books we enjoy.

I sometimes get in trouble when I attempt to couch comments in a humorous manner ... I should forbear that tendency in open forums.  I had no intention to attack or insult anyone.

Libronix has chosen, in *their* EULA, to specifically exclude other members of the family.  There were some comments about this.  I was trying to point out that the "joint property" laws (in the US ... I don't know about other countries) apply to physical objects, etc ... but cannot hold sway over the rights conferred by third parties.

I agree with you ... a license CAN also be inherently joint property ... but ONLY if the grantor permits it to be.  The grantor retains any rights that they wish ... they are the true "owners" of the object (software, etc) that is being licensed.  That's why we don't get the source code when we buy Libronix (humor intended here).

Thanks for your courteous and gracious reply.  I hope I've clarified what I meant.

In His service, and yours ...

Jim

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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 5:35 AM

JimDean:

Hi, Ted:

The post was not directed to anyone in particular, just an attempt to defuse the tension and to help people to be content with what the Lord has provided them through the hard work of the folks at Libronix, and through the many godly people who've written the books we enjoy.

I sometimes get in trouble when I attempt to couch comments in a humorous manner ... I should forbear that tendency in open forums.  I had no intention to attack or insult anyone.

Libronix has chosen, in *their* EULA, to specifically exclude other members of the family.  There were some comments about this.  I was trying to point out that the "joint property" laws (in the US ... I don't know about other countries) apply to physical objects, etc ... but cannot hold sway over the rights conferred by third parties.

I agree with you ... a license CAN also be inherently joint property ... but ONLY if the grantor permits it to be.  The grantor retains any rights that they wish ... they are the true "owners" of the object (software, etc) that is being licensed.  That's why we don't get the source code when we buy Libronix (humor intended here).

Thanks for your courteous and gracious reply.  I hope I've clarified what I meant.

In His service, and yours ...

Jim

JimDean:
I sometimes get in trouble when I attempt to couch comments in a humorous manner ... I should forbear that tendency in open forums.  I had no intention to attack or insult anyone.

No i did not think this of you, no never, no never! I thought perhaps b/cos i responded to George's post to RQuanstrom i may have been mistaken/ confused for RQuanstrom. I saw George's post to RQuanstrom & thought that settles it for me & responded to the effect to let my thoughts known.

Thanks for showing maturity and indulging me in the way you have handled this in Christian charity. I hope i do the same to others.

Yours in Christ,

Ted

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 9:09 AM

RQuanstrom:

This is a copy of the current license that is displayed in our software.

The short version is this: "The license goes with the user. Every user must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your personal use - because the license goes with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license.

All licenses are single human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant, but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

I'm confused, this license agreement allows:

...two separate personal computers as long as only one is used at a time.

And am I reading this right?

One person, only the licensed person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the licensee would do so illegally.

Rob

Rob, you'll note that when the EULA discusses single person use, it does so in the context of "site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses." I don't believe that Logos was thinking particularly of a home setting here, it seems to be contemplating a place where multiple people go to to study and/or work.It prohibits a library (even a church library) from having one instance of the software and let anyone use it. That would violate the EULA -- even if only one person used it at a time. It would also violate the EULA to step out of your office every Thursday from 10 to 1, so your Youth Pastor could get his lesson ready. He would need to buy his own copy.

By the letter of the law, here, you're right: only you may use the software -- not even your spouse or children. But I don't think the spirit of the law is quite so strict. I don't think Logos would have a problem with immediate family members making occasional use of Libronix, or in allowing a fellow pastor or a curious friend to 'demo' your copy (note the 30 day provision in General Provisions #4). But the EULA certainly does not grant them the right to use it.

Further, if one would argue that 'personal use' includes 'immediate family members living in the home,' when it comes to allowing them to use the software, the license grant allows only one instance of Libronix to be running at any one time. Technically, you couldn't have it open on your desktop, the same time your wife was doing her devotions (even if you were away from your desk).

It would be helpful if Logos would clarify this point in their EULA.

(My thoughts above, should not be construed as rendering an opinion as to the law.)

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 12:14 PM

Arrgghhh! I hate this topic. :-)

We have lots of heated discussions about this internally. Every other week we get the desperate-to-be-legal-and-ethical user who calls to confirm that they can install the software on their desktop and notebook computer. The other weeks we hear about the every-loophole-finding user who wants to parse our latest statement on the EULA to let them install the software on every machine they see, and to charge people for the service.

I am not going to answer all your questions. Ever. I don't want to. I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.

So what follow is still not "the final answer." It's a guide, similar to what I tell our CS people. (Who all wish I wouldn't give them discretion, but would instead make an easy-to-refer-to policy. :-) )

We license the software to one user.

If you are one user with 10 computers, because you run a Mac, Windows, notebook, netbook, desktop, church, home, and three flavors of Linux, I don't care. You're just one user, albeit with too many computers.

(People call up and say "how many computers can I put it on?" We don't care, if they're all YOUR computers. When we say "3", as we used to, for convenience, we'd get people who called with lengthy and unnecessary explanations for why they owned four computers. We'd also get people who would install it on the Pastor, Youth Pastor, and Sunday School Teacher's computers. And we'd say that was wrong, and they'd say "You said three computers for one owner, and the church is the owner, so it's legal to put it on three computers used by people who work at the church." I say, that's abusing the license.)

What about my spouse? What about my child?

Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user." Same thing when little Joey uses the family computer.

But if we extend the license to "officially" allow family use, we get (actual) scenarios like: Joe and Mary are both ordained ministers who attend and preach at different churches on Sunday morning. Each has an office, their own computer, their own salary and budget, and even their own church secretary. This, to me, doesn't feel like "one user". This feels like two users.

We also get Pastor Joe who has a 22 year old son Joe, Jr. in seminary, or a 35 year old son who is a pastor across the country. We've had people tell us they don't need multiple licenses, because they're family members. But Pastor Joe and grown-up Joe, Jr. seem like two users to me.

What if the user is a church, not a person?

It's great if the church wants to buy the software so the pastor doesn't have to buy it with their own funds. But that doesn't mean everyone who works at or attends the church is a legal user of the software (as some have tried to argue). It's still for "one person user"; thay can be Pastor Joe, and if Pastor Joe leaves, you can have him uninstall it and let new Pastor Mark use it instead. But we don't do site or organization licenses -- we license to a (human) user, even if an institution is the purchaser.

In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."

I hope this helps. For the record, this email is not a replacement of the EULA or a new policy. It's just how I think about it, and how I encourage our staff to think about it.

-- Bob

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 1:18 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user."

Thanks Bob for the clarification, i liar not that is me above in your quote. I did not find anything disagreeable in your explanation.

Kind Regards

Ted

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Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 1:40 PM

Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

 

Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

I’m still chuckling after reading Matthew Jones post regarding reading the EULA literally vs. understanding it’s dynamic equivalence.  

 

Once again Libronix has proved it’s worth to me.

I'm extremely pleased that someone from Libronix posted on this thread (I knew it was a hot one).

I’m really honored that Bob Pritchett answered. Thank you!

I will encourage my wife and kids to use the program as they please, recognizing that as they grow and develop they will purchase their own libraries.    

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 1:49 PM

Thank you Mr Bob for your clarification. 

Your answer addressed every concern raised in this post.  I never imagined all those scenarios.
I think Logos has been very fair. I can't wait for the day when all I have to do to use Logos on a brand new computer is to log in and use it! I don't know how you'll keep up with everyone's different libraries.  I will just quietly go back to my happy home-use of the software and read the EULA every now and again to keep up with any future developements.  Thanks again!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 1:59 PM

Hey Everybody, other than Mr Bob,

Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now. Whisper

If a kid pokes a bear with a stick too many times, the bear will make the kid wish he hadn't.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 2:16 PM

Bob Pritchett:

In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."

Hello Bob,

                  Thanks for your explaination/ clarification on the EULA. I was going to write to you outside of the forum but was advise to do so by your staff.

Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available? 

Does this mean that one's resources will be locked in one's computer drive and one will have to visit the logos web to gain access to these resources? I am not sure what you mean. Thanks in advance for your response

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 2:27 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now. Whisper

Should those also be things he hates to discuss?  Devil Devil Devil

BTW:  The bear went over the mountain.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2009 2:52 PM

George Somsel:

Matthew C Jones:

Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now. Whisper

 

Should those also be things he hates to discuss?  Devil Devil Devil

BTW:  The bear went over the mountain.

 

There are a few posters who keep telling the rest of us precisely that fact!  ...Lightning

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