St, Patrick-who?
Comments
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George is going to kill me one of these days. Probably when he reaches 40.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
George is going to kill me one of these days. Probably when he reaches 40.
It'll never happen. I may kill you, but I'll never reach 40. [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Room4more said:
An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.
You either should throw the dictionary that gave you this definition away or throw your New Testament away, because the New Testament names others as also being apostles.
For example, Acts 14:14 names Barnabas, and there are others. So the word apostle may be rightly applied to others besides the original 12 disciples.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Room4more said:Ben Hein said:
I'd like to say two things:
2) I thought the difference was between little a and big A apostle - Big A Apostle being those who have seen Christ (twelve minus Judas plus Matthias and then Paul), little a being...the rest of us.
You are absolutely correct. Thank-you Ben.
Of course, Scripture never says there is a difference between Big "A" and Little "a" apostles, does it? Even if you assume that, why do you also assume the book about St. Patrick is calling him a Big "A" apostle? You do a lot of assuming.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
Of course, Scripture never says there is a difference between Big "A" and Little "a" apostles, does it? Even if you assume that, why do you also assume the book about St. Patrick is calling him a Big "A" apostle? You do a lot of assuming.
I'll say! And with all of this assuming and insisting going on, I'm worried it's resulting in Icy Jesus! [:O]
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DMB said:
Of course one could embrace Room4More's definition (though somewhat troublesome theologically, since it immediately wipes out Paul, or if accepts Paul, also accepts anyone else with a claimed Jesus-vision). But more specifically it limits Jesus' evangelistic instructions to 'the 11' (some of whom, Matthew carefully points out, 'doubted').
Funny, but can Paul even claim he had a "Jesus-vision"...seeing as he has smacked BLIND?? And "could see nothing"? Hmmm...
However, he was clearly given tasks to perform and a role to fulfill. He WAS sent...so he IS an apostle, even if he couldn't see who and didn't know who He was calling Lord.
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I was sent by my conference to pastor the Good News Church, does that make me an apostle Room4more? [A] Just yanking your chain. But I am a saint. 1 Cor. 1:2
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Well Interesting posts during my absence, granted.
So without further ado:
-Thanks, MJ;
-Ken, I think that if you were to peruse the other (4)four verse that deal w/being an Apostle[qualifications] you would read that Paul was not just another apostle;
-DMB, Did I ever mention the original text, hhmm don’t think so, but it would be a grand event if the Logos Resources were used to compare the text –vs- English[transliteration]. So the capitalization of any original text is moot. [Thank-you {Saint}Apostle George for the clarification];
-M.Childs, when did I say that I used a dictionary? It was merely to get your attention. Yes we are aware of Barnabas and I do believe that he was briefly mentioned and discussed, but if there is more that you would like to add, I would like to read it;
-It is true that there is no differentiation of capitalization in the earliest manuscripts, nor, is there the same in the english transliterations. My point of using the “A” –vs- the “a” other than to be emphatic, is to draw your attention to the fact that within the Scriptures there is particularity in the application, especially in regards to the Twelve(+1)and the rest of us in the development of the early churches. Namely in the sense that there are common and then there are speciality.
-Thence, any assumptions are based solely upon the reader and the intentions of the same…..
But, if we so choose to say that we are of equal standing amongst the Twelve(+1), then it begs the question: Where were you standing during the Crucifixtion? Also, How could you have been part of the other 500 then and still be around today? By choosing the equality - you put yourself in a very distinguished group and some verification should be rendered on your part…..
We are all sent, and clearly we can all be identified as apostle’s in the commonality of our message. Also, our message is not new, whereas in the early days, IT WAS……
R4m.
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David Paul said:
However, he was clearly given tasks to perform and a role to fulfill. He WAS sent...so he IS an apostle, even if he couldn't see who and didn't know who He was calling Lord.
The word αʼπόστολος involves more than simply being sent. If you check LSJ on the word, you will see that the primary definition is that of being a messenger or ambassador, not simply with being sent.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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It's interesting that probably 99% of the thread participants pretty much agree with each other (not saying correct/incorrect).
But George's comment on LSJ is also interesting. As noted earlier, I'm deep into the Gospel of Nicodemas or its alter-ego name 'Acts of Pilate'. It reads similar to a mystery novel (Nancy Drew), and the unreasonable jews are doing their absolutely evil-best to try to get Jesus executed. Pilate's not buying it.
What's worse, inanimate objects near Pilate's seat of judgment are busily bowing to Jesus, of course enraging the jewish crowd.
At one point Jesus is asked to 'step outside' while the discussion boils over on why inanimate objects are bowing to Jesus. He is invited to step back in to see if the inanimate objects bow again, while in the hands of the jews.
At this point, the person retrieving Jesus lays down cloth for Jesus to step on as he enters. Of course this really maddens the crowd.
They say (this is the point, and not a direct quote): 'You sent a messenger! You should have sent a herald!!' (Implication being Jesus is regnal.)
Gospel of Nicodemas 'dates' to maybe the 6th century (e.g. scholars don't have data to move earlier). So (1) it'd be nice to have a greek lexicon for the church-fathers period (hint-hint on the pre-pub), and (2) did GospelNico reflect 'messenger' per the NT usage or common usage?
Logos Blog on a late-greek lexicon: http://blog.logos.com/2013/02/learn-how-greek-developed-after-the-new-testament/
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Gospel of Nicodemas 'dates' to maybe the 6th century (e.g. scholars don't have data to move earlier). So (1) it'd be nice to have a greek lexicon for the church-fathers period (hint-hint on the pre-pub)
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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DMB said:
But George's comment on LSJ is also interesting. As noted earlier, I'm deep into the Gospel of Nicodemas or its alter-ego name 'Acts of Pilate'. It reads similar to a mystery novel (Nancy Drew), and the unreasonable jews are doing their absolutely evil-best to try to get Jesus executed. Pilate's not buying it.
Not only the word ἀπόστολος but also the word πρεσβύτερος which is usually translated as "elder" in the NT. Note Xenophon's use of the related verbal formὁ δὲ Κλέαρχος ταῦτα ὑπήγετο βουλόμενος καὶ αὐτὸν τὸν παρὰ βασιλέως πρεσβεύοντα συμβουλεῦσαι μὴ παραδοῦναι τὰ ὅπλα, ὅπως εὐέλπιδες μᾶλλον εἶεν οἱ Ἕλληνες. Φαλῖνος δὲ ὑποστρέψας παρὰ τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ εἶπεν·
Now Clearchus was making this crafty suggestion in the hope that the very man who was acting as the King's ambassador might advise them not to give up their arms, and that thus the Greeks might be made more hopeful. But, contrary to his expectation, Phalinus also made a crafty turn, and said:
Xenophon, Anabasis 2.1.18 (<logosres:xenanabgk;ref=Xenophon.Xen.,_Anab._2.1.18;off=-308>)
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Not only the word ἀπόστολος but also the word πρεσβύτερος which is usually translated as "elder" in the NT. Note Xenophon's use of the related verbal form
ὁ δὲ Κλέαρχος ταῦτα ὑπήγετο βουλόμενος καὶ αὐτὸν τὸν παρὰ βασιλέως πρεσβεύοντα συμβουλεῦσαι μὴ παραδοῦναι τὰ ὅπλα, ὅπως εὐέλπιδες μᾶλλον εἶεν οἱ Ἕλληνες. Φαλῖνος δὲ ὑποστρέψας παρὰ τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ εἶπεν·
Now Clearchus was making this crafty suggestion in the hope that the very man who was acting as the King's ambassador might advise them not to give up their arms, and that thus the Greeks might be made more hopeful. But, contrary to his expectation, Phalinus also made a crafty turn, and said:
Xenophon, Anabasis 2.1.18 (<logosres:xenanabgk;ref=Xenophon.Xen.,_Anab._2.1.18;off=-308>)
As always, Bro.{saint/apostle} George, reaches over and grabs the books on the other side of the room...and shows another avenue not yet mentioned.
Thank-you.
R4m
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George's 'elder' as 'ambassador' is again interesting. Very similar to older Japanese usage.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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George Somsel said:
The word αʼπόστολος involves more than simply being sent. If you check LSJ on the word, you will see that the primary definition is that of being a messenger or ambassador, not simply with being sent.David Paul said:However, he was clearly given tasks to perform and a role to fulfill. He WAS sent...so he IS an apostle, even if he couldn't see who and didn't know who He was calling Lord.
Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".
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David Paul said:
Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".
Are you thinking of πέμπω?george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Are you thinking of πέμπω?David Paul said:Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".
Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head. [:P]
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David Paul said:
Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head.George Somsel said:
Are you thinking of πέμπω?David Paul said:Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".
It's easy to get -stello [στελλο] and -pempo [πεμπο] confused..../?
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Room4more said:David Paul said:
Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head.George Somsel said:
Are you thinking of πέμπω?David Paul said:Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".
It's easy to get -stello [στελλο] and -pempo [πεμπο] confused..../?
15.66
πέμπωa; ἀποστέλλωa; ἀπολύωb: to cause someone to depart for a particular purpose—‘to send.’
Louw, Johannes P. and Eugene Albert Nida. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York: United Bible Societies, 1996.
It's the same semantic domain.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
15.66
πέμπωa; ἀποστέλλωa; ἀπολύωb: to cause someone to depart for a particular purpose—‘to send.’
Louw, Johannes P. and Eugene Albert Nida. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York: United Bible Societies, 1996.
It's the same semantic domain.
[ppsssttt....i know.. ssshhh]
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Maybe they should look up:
ἀποστολή, ῆς, ἡ [apostleship][care to help them Bro{saint/apostle} George.....?]DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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So that no one can dispute that Paul misunderstood His calling and appointment of himself and the Twelve, here's a little something to help clear up that there are common and there are speciality:
δοκῶ γάρ, ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους, ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις.For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.
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Room4more said:
So that no one can dispute that Paul misunderstood His calling and appointment of himself and the Twelve, here's a little something to help clear up that there are common and there are speciality:
δοκῶ γάρ, ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους, ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις. For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.
Paul is a special apostle, all right...
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Room4more said:David Paul said:
Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head.George Somsel said:
Are you thinking of πέμπω?David Paul said:Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".
It's easy to get -stello [στελλο] and -pempo [πεμπο] confused..../?
Considering the way they are used in Scripture...yep.
3992. πέμπω pémpō; fut. pémpsō. To dispatch, send, thrust out.(I) Of persons, meaning to cause to go.(A) Generally with the acc. (Matt. 22:7; Acts 25:25; Phil. 2:23); followed by the acc. and dat. of person to whom (1 Cor. 4:17; Phil. 2:19); with eis (1519), unto, and the acc. of place (Matt. 2:8; Mark 5:12, “into them”; Eph. 6:22; Col. 4:8).(B) Specifically of messengers, agents, ambassadors, with the acc. (Matt. 11:2; Luke 16:24; John 1:22; 13:16; 1 Thess. 3:2); hoi pemphthéntes, those sent, the messengers (Luke 7:10); eis (1519), unto, with the acc. of place (Luke 16:27; Acts 15:22); with the inf. of purpose (1 Cor. 16:3; Rev. 22:16); with the acc. of person implied followed by eis with the inf. of purpose (1 Thess. 3:5, “I sent to know”); with the acc. of place (Acts 10:32; 20:17); prós (4314), toward, with the acc. (Luke 4:26; Acts 10:33; 15:25; 19:31; 23:30; 1 Pet. 2:14); the aor. part. pémpsas before a finite verb, implying that one does a thing by an agent or messenger (Matt. 14:10, “and having sent he beheaded John” [a.t. {cf. Mark 6:27}]). Spoken of teachers; with the inf., “ambassadors sent from God” (a.t.) or in His name, e.g., John the Baptist (John 1:33, “he that sent me to baptize”); Jesus, as sent from God (John 4:34; 5:23, 24; 6:38ff.; 7:16, 28; Rom. 8:3); the Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7); the apostles, as sent out by Jesus (John 13:20; Jn. 20:21).Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary : New Testament, electronic ed. (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000, c1992, c1993). G3992.In particular, notice the thrust of that last verse (Jn. 20:2)..."as [i.e. in the same way] one sends another, that second one sends others". Not only are the two "sends" virtually identical in appearance (how they are used), but the two sendings are likened to each other ("as")!
Only thing is...in spite of being likened to each other, the two semantically identical "sends" are two DIFFERENT "sends". The first one is ἀποστέλλω and the second is πέμπω. That makes the Apostles...not apostello!!! Where's the "speciality" now?!?! [:O]
Perhaps we should be referring to Pemp Paul?? [:P]
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David Paul said:
Considering the way they are used in Scripture...yep.
3992. πέμπω pémpō; fut. pémpsō. To dispatch, send, thrust out. (I) Of persons, meaning to cause to go. (A) Generally with the acc. (Matt. 22:7; Acts 25:25; Phil. 2:23); followed by the acc. and dat. of person to whom (1 Cor. 4:17; Phil. 2:19); with eis (1519), unto, and the acc. of place (Matt. 2:8; Mark 5:12, “into them”; Eph. 6:22; Col. 4:8). (B) Specifically of messengers, agents, ambassadors, with the acc. (Matt. 11:2; Luke 16:24; John 1:22; 13:16; 1 Thess. 3:2); hoi pemphthéntes, those sent, the messengers (Luke 7:10); eis (1519), unto, with the acc. of place (Luke 16:27; Acts 15:22); with the inf. of purpose (1 Cor. 16:3; Rev. 22:16); with the acc. of person implied followed by eis with the inf. of purpose (1 Thess. 3:5, “I sent to know”); with the acc. of place (Acts 10:32; 20:17); prós (4314), toward, with the acc. (Luke 4:26; Acts 10:33; 15:25; 19:31; 23:30; 1 Pet. 2:14); the aor. part. pémpsas before a finite verb, implying that one does a thing by an agent or messenger (Matt. 14:10, “and having sent he beheaded John” [a.t. {cf. Mark 6:27}]). Spoken of teachers; with the inf., “ambassadors sent from God” (a.t.) or in His name, e.g., John the Baptist (John 1:33, “he that sent me to baptize”); Jesus, as sent from God (John 4:34; 5:23, 24; 6:38ff.; 7:16, 28; Rom. 8:3); the Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7); the apostles, as sent out by Jesus (John 13:20; Jn. 20:21).
Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary : New Testament, electronic ed. (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000, c1992, c1993). G3992.
In particular, notice the thrust of that last verse (Jn. 20:2)..."as [i.e. in the same way] one sends another, that second one sends others". Not only are the two "sends" virtually identical in appearance (how they are used), but the two sendings are likened to each other ("as")!
Only thing is...in spite of being likened to each other, the two semantically identical "sends" are two DIFFERENT "sends". The first one is ἀποστέλλω and the second is πέμπω. That makes the Apostles...not apostello!!! Where's the "speciality" now?!?!
Perhaps we should be referring to Pemp Paul??
I suspect that if you cannot grasp the difference in your own writ, then I guess that you just can not grasp the difference.........
But for now that's fine, you've done the homework and someday you will be reading something - then - click! it will hit you, and you will grasp and understand the difference......
Thanks for the comments.
R4m.
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Sounds like the explanation that someone would give who says they "see" the difference...but never really gets around to explaining what the difference is.
Your "evidence" up to now has been oblique implications and fiat assertions...the bulk of which constitute non-sequiter.
The words are used interchangeably--face it.
Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".
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David Paul said:
Sounds like the explanation that someone would give who says they "see" the difference...but never really gets around to explaining what the difference is.
Your "evidence" up to now has been oblique implications and fiat assertions...the bulk of which constitute non-sequiter.
The words are used interchangeably--face it.
Nope; the evidence is all there. I went through this many years ago, and believe me when I say, one day it will Click! and you will mentally recall this conversation and all the research[reading] you have done...
Adding, that if God had wanted the words to be πέμπω instead of ἀποστέλλω [vice-vers] it would have been so....but - it isn't. Even the verse Jn20.21 uses the two, that in and of itself should generate those brain gears a workin', going so far as to say that the Apostle's[at a later date] knew within themselves what the difference is/was. So if they understood and knew.......
David Paul said:Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".
Nope, totally different ball-game.
Thanks again for the comments.
R4m.
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David Paul said:
Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".
Not trying to be rude, but check your spelling, or perhaps your pronunciation hray'-mah ῥῆμα [ r u attempting to get to the root or a cognate--?] ? I think I know what you are wanting to say, but not sure of your spelling or the way you are saying it.....
R4m.
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Ben Hein said:
1) Please keep your heart in check as you post, there is no need for us to get hasty and quarrelsome.
Amen, brother Ben.[Y][H]
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Room4more said:David Paul said:
Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".
Not trying to be rude, but check your spelling, or perhaps your pronunciation hray'-mah ῥῆμα [ r u attempting to get to the root or a cognate--?] ? I think I know what you are wanting to say, but not sure of your spelling or the way you are saying it.....
R4m.
I'm surprised that he doesn't follow his practice with regard to Hebrew. One would think that he would write "hreeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-mah" in order to be consistent.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I'm surprised that he doesn't follow his practice with regard to Hebrew. One would think that he would write "hreeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-mah" in order to be consistent.
ROFL!!!
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Room4more said:David Paul said:
Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".
Not trying to be rude, but check your spelling, or perhaps your pronunciation hray'-mah ῥῆμα [ r u attempting to get to the root or a cognate--?] ? I think I know what you are wanting to say, but not sure of your spelling or the way you are saying it.....
R4m.
You are right...hrayma would be better.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:Room4more said:David Paul said:
Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".
Not trying to be rude, but check your spelling, or perhaps your pronunciation hray'-mah ῥῆμα [ r u attempting to get to the root or a cognate--?] ? I think I know what you are wanting to say, but not sure of your spelling or the way you are saying it.....
R4m.
You are right...hrayma would be better.
Actually having spent some time going over the two here lately just for you, yes I do see some significant differences. Now we can be comparative to the topic at hand and looking at the semiotics, then there are similarities, semantically as well. But if that is the extent of how we are doing a study then we miss the meaning of the message and how the message is being brought/made to be.
Again referring to Jn 20.21, in the words that Jesus said, yes we see the two: πέμπω / ἀποστέλλω, and with the semiotics there is little to discuss; looking from the contextual comparison then there is a comparative difference that we should take notice of......
EDIT: check out the way Paul used sent-Gal 4:4 and send-Acts 22.21.....see any significance or just the semiotics/semantics/?
R4m.
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Propp, Greimas or Eco? with any rhetoric from Groupe µ?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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How much do you profit by winning the argument but losing the respect of others?
24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, 25 correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26 and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
2 Ti 2.24-26 (NRSV)
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papa_gowgow said:
How much do you profit by winning the argument but losing the respect of others?
24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, 25 correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26 and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
2 Ti 2.24-26 (NRSV)
I don't know, how much?
Sounds like the voice of someone that has failed in the past, perhaps...?
Thank-you for your comment.
R4m.
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Not a great deal. You fall down as a witness for Christ.
We are putting no obstacle in anyone’s way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry [2 Co 6.3]
(Ending with 'thank-you' does not make an ad hominem argument less offensive)
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papa_gowgow said:
How much do you profit by winning the argument but losing the respect of others?
You are being over-gracious. I don't think the OP has won the argument at all.
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Thanks papa_gowgow
Not quit sure of your referral to the ad hominem statement, yet we are not engaged in an argumentum made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument, but rather the opposite of the clause. The Scriptural referrals are substantial evidence, Scripturaly, that support the teaching.
The Apostle's grew in Spiritual wisdom to understand that they were of a select few, and for a special [if you will allow] purpose.
IE> How many times was Peter rebuke/corrected/chastised for his lack of understanding or out of place comments? Yet, in all this he still had doubts, concerns, possibly even whether or not these things were true. Even at the tomb and all that he witnessed - he went home!
But you have a look for yourself – Luke 24:12 – contemplation/meditation
Lee, I wasn't aware that this was an argument/? But thats ok...
Thanks for the comments.
R4m.
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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More of the same.
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[replying to no one in particular, but to the circularity of the discussion]
When the horse is dead, dismount.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
[replying to no one in particular, but to the circularity of the discussion]
When the horse is dead, dismount.
Agreed! I like the saying, nice one Richard.
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