Need suggestions: Resources on Christ's humanity
I thought someone must have had the same questions I do here on the forum so....
What are some good resources that address Christ's humanity on a philosophical level, such as the question of "Could Jesus have fallen sick from a virus" and "Would Jesus have lived forever if not for the crucifixion"?
All help is appreciated.
Your brother in Christ,
Geo
Comments
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No takers? [:)]
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Peace, Geo! *smile* Actually, I DO think Jesus got sick from a virus .......... and from bacteria.
I DO think that he was possibly colicky as an infant! I think the Blessed Virgin Mary had her hands full taking care of her child in a day without apothecary products. *smile* A normal child and a normal man. And! Sometimes we get sick!
And the fleas and black flies the mosquitos and the thistles of life brought into this world by the disobedience of our first parents affect us all!
He was/IS! -- true God and true Man -- truly divine - truly human. !!!
Geo, there are a thousand ways to approach this and study this, perhaps as many as we who use the forums....
I just did a search of my resources using a formal doctrinal term that is quite familiar to Lutherans and perhaps some other traditions. Jesus before His Resurrection was in the "state of humiliation." Then he entered the State of Exaltation! *smile* Praise God!
Why don't you start a FaithLife Group on this subject and invite us to it! I'd be very happy indeed to discuss the matter with you and others on the basis of Holy Scripture...
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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May I suggest Tertullian's two booklets, "The Flesh of Christ" and "On the Resurrection"? Of course he was not aware of the modern medicine, but it is a powerful statement about Jesus having real flesh.
After that, there is plenty of more from the 5th century Christological debates...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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If it was me I would search my library, dictionaries, "Large Text", "Heading Text" for Docetism - this was a heresy that began around the 3rd century. There were about 4-5 flavors of Docetism, all related to challenges of the complete humanity of Jesus. Articles on Docetism will address questions like:
Jesus felt no pain
Jesus didn't suffer
Jesus was really a representation/image of a man, somewhat like the human appearance of an angel
Jesus not only didn't sin, he wasn't tempted
St. Irenaeus wrote against Docetism in his famous writing "Against Heresies", which you may find references to. Polycarp also wrote against Docetism.
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Thanks everyone for the tips.
Thank you Milford for the suggestion to start a Faithlife group. I have created one and invited you to it.
If anyone else is interested, here is the URL
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Geo Philips said:
I thought someone must have had the same questions I do here on the forum so....
What are some good resources that address Christ's humanity on a philosophical level, such as the question of "Could Jesus have fallen sick from a virus" and "Would Jesus have lived forever if not for the crucifixion"?
All help is appreciated.
Your brother in Christ,
Geo
Come on now, we all know that he was a space alien. [;)]
Did you ever try the scriptures? Primary sources are always best. [8-|]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I am not very learned on what our traditions are regarding this topic. I have always assumed that our understanding of Jesus' humanity included his susceptibility to human conditions like sickness apart from anything to do with a sinful nature.
Recently, I have heard teaching that denies (philosophically, on a level similar to Athanasius) that Jesus could fall sick, or that he would have grown old, or would have died had he not been crucified.
That sparked my interest in this topic!
Thanks
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Blessings, George! I've accepted! I look forward to "giving and receiving" on that group; and I'm hopeful others, please(!), will join us!
I particularly like your phraseology -- "
The Humanity of Jesus
We welcome enquiries and meditations on the human nature of Jesus Christ."
Right now I'm thinking some meditative thoughts from the Epistle to the Hebrews! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Geo Philips said:
Recently, I have heard teaching that denies (philosophically, on a level similar to Athanasius) that Jesus could fall sick, or that he would have grown old, or would have died had he not been crucified
Well, we are told that he slept, that he wept, that he became angry, that he had compassion, that he became thirsty, that he was hungry and ate (and even that he became weak and in need of angelic assistance when he failed to eat) so why should we not believe that he was otherwise like us? It seems that such a position that he was not in all respects human is like that of some of the early heretical groups (yeah, a space alien).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Long ago I used to really like, "What if ...?" questions. And used to love speculations! *smile* However, now, in my old age I have become somewhat impatient with them .... hopefully, I'm a wee bit wiser! *smile*Geo Philips said:I am not very learned on what our traditions are regarding this topic. I have always assumed that our understanding of Jesus' humanity included his susceptibility to human conditions like sickness apart from anything to do with a sinful nature.
Recently, I have heard teaching that denies (philosophically, on a level similar to Athanasius) that Jesus could fall sick, or that he would have grown old, or would have died had he not been crucified.
That sparked my interest in this topic!
Thanks
for example your example! "teaching that denies (philosophically, on a level similar to Athanasius) that Jesus could fall sick, or that he would have grown old, or would have died had he not been crucified." Back to how many angels can dance on the point of a pin, eh???
*smile* Actually such philosophical speculations seem to be now somewhat ridiculous and a waste of the precious time that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ gives us!
That's why, Geo, I love your title to the FaithLife group! quote from you! .......
"The Humanity of Jesus
We welcome enquiries and meditations on the human nature of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Thank you, George! I hope you join the group! *smile*George Somsel said:Geo Philips said:Recently, I have heard teaching that denies (philosophically, on a level similar to Athanasius) that Jesus could fall sick, or that he would have grown old, or would have died had he not been crucified
Well, we are told that he slept, that he wept, that he became angry, that he had compassion, that he became thirsty, that he was hungry and ate (and even that he became weak and in need of angelic assistance when he failed to eat) so why should we not believe that he was otherwise like us? It seems that such a position that he was not in all respects human is like that of some of the early heretical groups (yeah, a space alien).
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
However, now, in my old age …
"You are old, Father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head—
Do you think, at your age, it is right?"[:D] [;)] [:D] [;)] [:D] [;)] [:D] [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Thanks Milford for the encouragement. [:)]
I have to say I chuckled when you called me George.
I am Indian, and my parents wanted to name me after my granddad who was George. However, they were hesitant because they did not want to be in a situation where they chastized me by name and my granddad heard it (1. Indians are extremely respectful of age, and 2. we don't have the concept of Junior, Jr. etc.)
So they innovated and cut off 3 letters from George to make it Geo. I actually thought I was unique but I have found two other Geo's (both from my part of the world).
Sorry for the digression.
Cheers
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Thanks, Geo! Your comments are truly appreciated! My mistake in typing in George instead of Geo in that one place. I stand joyfully corrected! And will be careful in the future ... From now on George = George Somsel! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I believe Athanasius was probably fighting his own battles with those who denied Jesus' deity.
This is a quote from On the Incarnation of the Word. Here is a link to the relevant chapter online
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.v.html
“The death of men under ordinary circumstances is the result of their natural weakness. They are essentially impermanent, so after a time they fall ill and when worn out they die. But the Lord is not like that. He is not weak, He is the Power of God and Word of God and Very Life Itself…. How could He fall sick, Who had healed others?”
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No no, Milford, no offence taken. I do not mind George ; it has a certain grandeur to it [:)] I am sure 'George' Somsel is fully deserving of it!
Just used it as an opportunity to tell a little story.
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Great quote, Geo! I'll be meditating and pondering on that in due course! *smile* I wonder how Athanasius describes it when Jesus in his sojourn here is worn out and needs to be alone and in dire need of desperate prayer and weeps over various situations .... .....Geo Philips said:I believe Athanasius was probably fighting his own battles with those who denied Jesus' deity.
This is a quote from On the Incarnation of the Word.
“The death of men under ordinary circumstances is the result of their natural weakness. They are essentially impermanent, so after a time they fall ill and when worn out they die. But the Lord is not like that. He is not weak, He is the Power of God and Word of God and Very Life Itself…. How could He fall sick, Who had healed others?” (p. 51).
As a Lutheran the so-called "State of Humiliation" means to me that somehow Jesus did not "use" his Power which He certainly had ...
And then also perhaps in our group we need to meditate and ponder on Philippians ... ..."He emptied Himself" ... *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Hi Geo,
The Catholic Encyclopedia has a short blurb with some patristic references that may be relevant:
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Great question.
I've always felt that "Away in a Manger" (though I love it) is a very docetistic Christmas carol: "the little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes." I'm sure Jesus cried as an infant when he was hungry or needed his swaddling clothes changed. He was a fully human baby, yet also fully divine.
A search for the phrase "no crying he makes" with "humanity of Jesus" or "humanity of Christ" was fruitful. Found this helpful section from R. T. Kendall's Understanding Theology, Volume Three:
I. Certain biblical facts about the humanity of Jesus
A. The Virgin Birth.
1. This is proof of his Deity.
2. It is equally proof of his humanity; he was the son of Mary.
a. Jesus was conceived in her womb by a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.
(1) Mary was ‘found to be with child through the Holy Spirit’ (Matt. 1:18).
(2) That which was conceived ‘in her is from the Holy Spirit’ (Matt. 1:20).
(3) The child would be ‘holy’ (Luke 1:35).
b. When he was born he was a human baby.
(1) The line of a hymn which says, ‘No crying he makes,’ is probably false.
(2) It is more likely, ‘Tears and smiles like us he knew.’
3. Note three important areas:
a. Salvation comes through the ‘offspring’ of the woman (Gen. 3:15) and not through human effort; it is the work of God himself.
b. The Virgin Birth made possible the uniting of the full deity and full humanity in one person.
(1) Jesus came into the world as a man (Gal. 4:4).
(2) Jesus was a complete human being.
c. The Virgin Birth makes possible the full humanity of Jesus without inherited sin.
(1) Human beings have inherited legal guilt and a corrupt moral nature from their first father—Adam.
(2) This is sometimes called ‘inherited’ or ‘original’ sin.
(3) The fact that Jesus did not have a human father meant that the line of descent from Adam was partially interrupted.
(4) Jesus did not descend from Adam in exactly the same way in which every other human being descended from Adam.
(5) This is why the legal guilt and moral corruption which belongs to other human beings did not belong to Christ.
(6) The Holy Spirit’s work prevented not only the transmission of sin through Joseph but also, in a miraculous way, the transmission of sin from Mary. ‘So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God’ (Luke 1:35).
B. Human weaknesses and limitations.
1. Jesus had a human body.
a. He was born as all human babies are born (Luke 2:7).
b. He grew through childhood just like other children grow. ‘And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him’ (Luke 2:40).
c. He grew ‘in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man’ (Luke 2:52).
2. He got tired as we do (John 4:6).
3. He became thirsty (John 19:28).
4. He became hungry (Matt. 4:2).
5. His fast in the desert would have made him physically weak; at that time the angels ministered to him (Matt. 4:11).
6. On his way to be crucified, the soldiers forced Simon of Cyrene to carry his cross (Luke 23:26).
7. The culmination of his limitations is seen in his succumbing to death on a cross (Luke 23:46).
a. His human body ceased to function, just as ours do when we die.
b. Paul said he was crucified ‘in weakness’ (2 Cor. 13:4).
C. His resurrected body.
1. Although our chief focus is on Jesus’ humanity before his resurrection, an examination of his humanity afterwards is revealing.
2. Although he was no longer subject to weakness or death, Jesus himself demonstrated that he still had a real physical body.
a. ‘Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have’ (Luke 24:39).
(1) This shows he has flesh and bones.
(2) He was not merely a spirit without a body.
b. ‘When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence’ (Luke 24:40–43).
3. The way in which Jesus ascended to heaven was calculated to demonstrate the continuity between his existence in a physical body below and his continuing existence in that same body in heaven.
a. There is a man in glory!
b. There is one mediator—the ‘man Christ Jesus’ (1 Tim. 2:5).
D. Jesus had a human mind.
1. The fact that he ‘increased in wisdom’ tells us that he went through a learning process just as all children do.
2. He had to learn to read and write, how to walk and talk.
a. He had to learn his ABC—or the equivalent!
b. He had to learn his multiplication tables—or the equivalent!
c. He had to read the Old Testament in order to quote it and show mastery of it.
3. He leaned obedience (Heb. 5:8) and continued this even after his bar mitzvah. ‘Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart’ (Luke 2:51).
4. When the disciples, having been told to buy swords, replied, ‘See, Lord, here are two swords,’ Jesus replied as though he had not known they had them. ‘That is enough,’ he replied, (Luke 22:36–38).
E. He had a human soul and emotions.
1. ‘Now my heart is troubled’ (John 12:27).
2. ‘After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit’ (John 13:21).
a. Gr. tarasso, troubled, is a word that is often used of people when they are anxious or suddenly surprised by danger.
(1) Herod was ‘disturbed’ when he heard from the Magi (Matt. 2:3).
(2) The disciples were ‘terrified’ when they saw Jesus walking on the sea and thought he was a ghost (Matt. 14:26).
(3) Zechariah was ‘startled and gripped with fear’ when he saw an angel in the temple (Luke 1:12).
(4) The disciples were ‘troubled’ when Jesus appeared after his resurrection (Luke 24:38).
b. When Jesus was troubled we must not think there was any lack of faith or sin involved.
3. He was ‘astonished’ at the faith of the centurion (Matt. 8:10).
4. He wept with sorrow at the death of Lazarus (John 11:35).
5. He could be angry (Mark 3:5. Cf. John 2:15ff; Mark 11:11ff).
6. He prayed with deep emotion.
a. ‘During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission’ (Heb. 5:7).
b. ‘And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground’ (Luke 22:44).
7. Possibly the most extraordinary revelation is that Jesus was perfected by way of suffering!
a. He was made ‘perfect through suffering’ (Heb. 2:10).
b. ‘Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered’ (Heb. 5:8).
(1) The older he became the more demands his parents could place on him.
(2) The more difficult also were the tasks that his heavenly Father could assign to him—the worst being the last week, last hours of his earthly life.
8. He was tempted ‘in every way’ like us and yet without sin (Heb. 4:15. Cf. Heb. 2:18).
a. We won’t know until we get to Heaven how fierce his temptations were.
b. I predict: they were worse than what you and I experience, and would have included every kind of temptation, with particular reference to pride and sex.
9. People saw Jesus only as a man.
a. There was nothing spectacular about his appearance (Is. 53:2).
b. Judas gave a signal by which the chief priests would recognise Jesus, which shows there was nothing extraordinary about his appearance (Matt. 26:48).
c. For the first thirty years of his life Jesus’ life was so ordinary that the people of Nazareth who knew him best were amazed that he could teach and work miracles.
(1) He was the ‘carpenter’s son’ (Matt. 13:55).
(2) He was ‘the carpenter’ (Mark 6:3).
(3) Even his brothers did not believe in him (John 7:5).
(4) ‘They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” ’ (John 6:42).
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Wow. Thanks Rosie.
I dont have that resource, but I will try the search in my library as well.
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Done!
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Great, Rosie! Thank you! Much appreciated!
Come and now and again Converse with us ... even if you only come to the FaithGroup now and again, please consider this invitation
*smile* Peace!
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/69842.aspx
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Sleiman said:
Or per Bob's post, feel free to raise your bid to $50 or more.
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/66803/466023.aspx#466023
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Did not notice that. Done as Bob suggested![:)]
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