Blog on Baker new releases misleading
The most recent post on the Logos blog announces 40% off on selected Baker new releases, specifically mentions Moo's forthcoming Galatians commentary, and even shows the cover for that item in that opening paragragh. But when the reader clicks on the Moo volume, the discount is only 10%. Reading the entire blog leads one a short list at the very end, where the Moo volume is again lited with a few other items that only get a 10% discount. I hope this is a mistake snd the blog is changed soon to eliminate this misleading advertisement. If this tactic is intentional, it is grossly unworthy and unethical, especially from a company specializing in Bible products.
Comments
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I agree it should have been worded differently, especially if they were going to feature Moo's book cover.
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with link => http://blog.logos.com/2013/05/40-off-new-releases-from-baker-for-a-limited-time/
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Randy Lane said:
The most recent post on the Logos blog announces 40% off on selected Baker new releases, specifically mentions Moo's forthcoming Galatians commentary, and even shows the cover for that item in that opening paragragh. But when the reader clicks on the Moo volume, the discount is only 10%. Reading the entire blog leads one a short list at the very end, where the Moo volume is again lited with a few other items that only get a 10% discount. I hope this is a mistake snd the blog is changed soon to eliminate this misleading advertisement. If this tactic is intentional, it is grossly unworthy and unethical, especially from a company specializing in Bible products.
I don't usually comment on Logos advertising. However, if the headline were simply changed to "Up to 40% Discount..." it would clear things up considerably. As it is now, it is misleading, until you read the copy and realize quickly, that the 40% discount is not for all those titles.
Maybe I'm cynical, but I expect advertising to mislead, and require me to read the 'fine print.' Or maybe 'mislead' is too strong a word, for a practice that will, by design, try to make an offer look as attractive as possible. In this case, the effort to draw attention (the headline) actually does mislead (IMHO), as I think a normal person would, at first glance at the ad believe that the commentary by Moo was available at a 40% discount. Only by reading on, would the actual situation become clear.
[Edit: fixed a typo.]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Randy Lane said:
If this tactic is intentional, it is grossly unworthy and unethical, especially from a company specializing in Bible products.
I doubt it's intentionally deceptive, but Logos do unfortunately have a history of over-enthusiastic marketing. I really do wish they'd take much greater care in their promotional activities.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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In some parts, “over-enthusiastic marketing” is a euphemism for “intentionally deceptive”. The fact that Moo’s Galatians was the only book highlighted among the “new releases from Baker are now available for pre-order at a healthy discount for just two weeks” and was the first cover to be displayed, could only lead the reader the one conclusion: the book will be temporary offered at a 40% discount.
If Logos did not have a regrettable history of over inflating the value of the savings on key offerings, I would be more likely to attribute it to sloppiness instead of “not straightforward marketing practices” to use another euphemism.
Logos needs to understand that marketing gimmicks are making many of us less likely to buy these offerings on principle.
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I would tend to agree that the track record has revealed that Logos is okay with the standard marketing practices. This is unfortunate. I do believe Logos should be held to a higher standard because of what type of company it is claiming to be.
Nevertheless, as long as they continue to offer quality products and service, and I have the money, I'll continue to give them my business. I'll just treat them like any other business; proceed with caution and ask lots of questions.
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Mark Barnes said:
Logos do unfortunately have a history of over-enthusiastic marketing. I really do wish they'd take much greater care in their promotional activities.
[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y]
CL said:I would tend to agree that the track record has revealed that Logos is okay with the standard marketing practices.
Logos marketing practices are 'standard' in the US? The vast majority of perfectly secular Swedish companies have vastly higher standards, so to me their track record is way below 'standard'.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Richard DeRuiter said:
if the headline were simply changed to "Up to 40% Discount..."
I personally hate the "up to" or "starting at" wording, because they are meaningless:
- out of a 1000 items 1 may be 40% off and the rest 1%, or
- it could be 40% off, but of some ridiculous made-up RSVP or whatever other gimmicky comparison
Advertising should exist to inform, not to mislead in order to get an extra $. One great quote I remember from seminary days is "Don't explain something so it can be understood, explain something so that it cannot be misunderstood." Logos once again fails to live by this principle. Till it does, I remain unsubscribed from all their communications, marketing or otherwise.
Richard DeRuiter said:Maybe I'm cynical, but I expect advertising to mislead, and require me to read the 'fine print.'
I am the same way, but it should not be like that...
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Mark Barnes said:Randy Lane said:
If this tactic is intentional, it is grossly unworthy and unethical, especially from a company specializing in Bible products.
I doubt it's intentionally deceptive, but Logos do unfortunately have a history of over-enthusiastic marketing. I really do wish they'd take much greater care in their promotional activities.
Amen.
I spent a good while a few days ago trying to figure out if I was missing something.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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toughski said:
I personally hate the "up to" or "starting at" wording, because they are meaningless:
The "retail price" claims are also meaningless. I generally ask myself, "What do I get?" and "How much do I pay?"
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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toughski said:
Advertising should exist to inform, not to mislead in order to get an extra $. One great quote I remember from seminary days is "Don't explain something so it can be understood, explain something so that it cannot be misunderstood."
[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Because Logo's history of 'over-enthusiastic marketing', I cannot help but make the conclusion that this is their standard practice & thus intentional.Mark Barnes said:Randy Lane said:If this tactic is intentional, it is grossly unworthy and unethical, especially from a company specializing in Bible products.
I doubt it's intentionally deceptive, but Logos do unfortunately have a history of over-enthusiastic marketing. I really do wish they'd take much greater care in their promotional activities.
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Logos 5 Home Page shows:
with link => http://blog.logos.com/2013/05/40-off-new-releases-from-baker-for-a-limited-time/
Keep Smiling
Although I love the Logos product and believe it is a company of integrity, the consistently overly aggressive misleading advertising is very upsetting.
Magicians are known for performing their deceptions by misdirection. This particular ad is clearly deception by misdirection. Leading off with 40% Off and the picture of Moo's commentary were not accidental! A few words (up to 40%) could have made this much clearer. Did more than one person in marketing read the ad before it was placed? Did no one question whether it crossed the bounds of propriety?
I would like to hear from Dan on this ad.
Logos has clearly upset its customers but a consistent history of unclear or misleading marketing. That is both unnecessary and inappropriate. Be honest in what you are offering. Speak with integrity.
Do not force your customers to search through the fine print and wonder if they are really getting what they think they are.
If customers lose confidence in your marketing, it loses its effectiveness. We should be able to have confidence that we are getting what we think we are getting.
Don't keep breaking our hearts and trust.
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Personally, I almost ordered the BECNT on Galatians because I thought they finally had been able to offer some discount on it for 2 weeks, but come to find out, it was not so; hence, I'd rather wait and get some other resources later and put them on my payment plan. It'll be cheaper in the long run even if I have to eat up a $5 service charge for a payment plan. Better than to have to dish out that kind of money all at once.
Concerning the advertisement, yes a little bit misleading, but Logos has been known to offer discounts on their prepubs for a limited time and then during the prepub it goes up a little more and then when it gets out of prepub it goes up even more, so I thought this was going to be the case, but when I finished reading the post I was a little bit disappointed, but no hard feelings. It's all good, I got plenty to study and read with my new upgrades and purchases anyway.
By the way BECNT (15 vols.) was up for sale for $499 this Saturday. That's 200 bucks off the $699 regular price. Not bad.
DAL
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I'm sorry about this. Sometimes we blow it, and this is one of those times. Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading. The Moo image was selected only because it is one of the most-anticipated releases coming from Baker this fall.We have fixed the post. It is never our intention to be deceptive, and we thank you for calling us out on this.0
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Kent Hendricks said:
I'm sorry about this. Sometimes we blow it, and this is one of those times. Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading. The Moo image was selected only because it is one of the most-anticipated releases coming from Baker this fall. We have fixed the post. It is never our intention to be deceptive, and we thank you for calling us out on this.
[Y]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Thanks Kent. [:)]
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Thanks Kent![Y]
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Thanks, Kent.
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Kent Hendricks said:
Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading.
Thanks you for correcting this
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Kent Hendricks said:
I'm sorry about this. Sometimes we blow it, and this is one of those times. Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading.
The Moo image was selected only because it is one of the most-anticipated releases coming from Baker this fall. We have fixed the post. It is never our intention to be deceptive, and we thank you for calling us out on this.
Kent,Thanks for addressing the problem.What makes this particularly aggravating is how frequently this exact same kind of misleading ad comes from Logos.Logos marketing knows how many thousands of people are going to see the ads. They know exactly what people are going to think the ad is saying when they see it. Ads are carefully put together to gain a particular response. Variations on the wording and displays of the ad are scrutinized for maximum impact. No one just happened to paste up 40% Off and Moo as the most prominent features of the ad.I have been a big defender of Logos as a company. I have always tried to give Logos the benefit of the doubt. I know how easy it is to make unintentional mistakes.Everyone makes mistakes. No one should keep making the same mistakes.If the misleading nature of the ad is unintentional, it clearly shows that not enough eyes are reviewing the ads before they are posted. Someone should do a final review (I suggest Dan and/or Bob) for every ad before it appears to the public. It's all about maintaining quality control. Failure to consistently communicate the facts accurately makes people question the integrity and motives of the company.If it was my company, with my family's name attached, I would be absolutely outraged that happens so frequently.Someone should be asking "Is there anything that could be misleading about this ad?" "Are we requiring the customer to comb through fine-print to assure that they know what 'the deal' is that is being offered."I knew the ad was misleading as soon as I saw the 40% Off and Moo's commentary was pictured next to that headline. I knew what Logos was selling that commentary for. Did no one at Logos in marketing know it?The failure to clearly communicate was a major fiasco for the last 2 Logos releases. People were more confused and upset by the advertising than the product itself. It took scores of posts by Logos forum users and Logos employees trying to explain what Logos failed to explain originally. I remember that it was a full 30 days after the release of L5 before Logos effectively clarified the upgrade. It seems that Logos is always playing catch-up.It reminds me of people who use the excuse "I would rather ask forgiveness than ask permission."[I don't know why this is displaying as a single paragraph.]0 -
Kent Hendricks said:
I'm sorry about this. Sometimes we blow it, and this is one of those times. Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading. The Moo image was selected only because it is one of the most-anticipated releases coming from Baker this fall. We have fixed the post. It is never our intention to be deceptive, and we thank you for calling us out on this.
The Moo commentary pictured is 43% off in hardcover form here.I will never understand why you can buy a Printed copy of a book and have it shipped cheaper than an electronic copy. An electronic copy is much cheaper to produce, store and deliver. Those savings could be passed on to the customer. But whatever the market will bear seems to be the model in use.0 -
[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y]Edwin Bowden said:
Kent, Thanks for addressing the problem. What makes this particularly aggravating is how frequently this exact same kind of misleading ad comes from Logos. Logos marketing knows how many thousands of people are going to see the ads. They know exactly what people are going to think the ad is saying when they see it. Ads are carefully put together to gain a particular response. Variations on the wording and displays of the ad are scrutinized for maximum impact. No one just happened to paste up 40% Off and Moo as the most prominent features of the ad. I have been a big defender of Logos as a company. I have always tried to give Logos the benefit of the doubt. I know how easy it is to make unintentional mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. No one should keep making the same mistakes. If the misleading nature of the ad is unintentional, it clearly shows that not enough eyes are reviewing the ads before they are posted. Someone should do a final review (I suggest Dan and/or Bob) for every ad before it appears to the public. It's all about maintaining quality control. Failure to consistently communicate the facts accurately makes people question the integrity and motives of the company. If it was my company, with my family's name attached, I would be absolutely outraged that happens so frequently. Someone should be asking "Is there anything that could be misleading about this ad?" "Are we requiring the customer to comb through fine-print to assure that they know what 'the deal' is that is being offered." I knew the ad was misleading as soon as I saw the 40% Off and Moo's commentary was pictured next to that headline. I knew what Logos was selling that commentary for. Did no one at Logos in marketing know it? The failure to clearly communicate was a major fiasco for the last 2 Logos releases. People were more confused and upset by the advertising than the product itself. It took scores of posts by Logos forum users and Logos employees trying to explain what Logos failed to explain originally. I remember that it was a full 30 days after the release of L5 before Logos effectively clarified the upgrade. It seems that Logos is always playing catch-up. It reminds me of people who use the excuse "I would rather ask forgiveness than ask permission." [I don't know why this is displaying as a single paragraph.]Kent Hendricks said:I'm sorry about this. Sometimes we blow it, and this is one of those times. Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading.
The Moo image was selected only because it is one of the most-anticipated releases coming from Baker this fall. We have fixed the post. It is never our intention to be deceptive, and we thank you for calling us out on this.
As much as I agree with you Edwin, I believe it is simply part of the culture (first - put out crap, second - say sorry, and third - fix it) at Logos. Remember L3 for Mac, L4 for Windows, L4 for Mac?
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I understand where you are coming from, but you are missing a couple of things:John said:The Moo commentary pictured is 43% off in hardcover form here. I will never understand why you can buy a Printed copy of a book and have it shipped cheaper than an electronic copy. An electronic copy is much cheaper to produce, store and deliver. Those savings could be passed on to the customer.
- When a hard copy gets worn out or lost, the user has to purchase it again. Electronic copies have to take this into consideration. (Consider light bulbs, which are designed with flaws so that they DO burn out... Some of Edison's original bulbs are still burning!)
- when Logos sells you an eBook, they aren't selling you something from off the shelf, never to see the product again... Logos must continually pay for server space.
- You must remember that Logos resources are value added... They spend time, money, and resources adding tags, etc to the resource. This isn't true with Amazon.
- Finally, Logos maintains the resources... They continue to add tagging, correct typos, etc.
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One thing that is needed is a transparent linkage between sales and bookkeeping.
- There also needs to be a complete explanationn of "dynamic pricing" on upgrades.
- Trust us we care for you is getting weak.
Maybe we need a permanent dialogue in the forums on how t o best invest in your resources and how to avoid some of the marketing
John
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I would like to hear from Dan on this ad..
Dan my be the root cause
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Kent Hendricks said:
I'm sorry about this. Sometimes we blow it, and this is one of those times. Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading. The Moo image was selected only because it is one of the most-anticipated releases coming from Baker this fall. We have fixed the post. It is never our intention to be deceptive, and we thank you for calling us out on this.
Well Mr. Kent, can Logos at least give those of us and only those of us who have posted our concern the 40% off of BECNT? That would be a way to make up for the misleading mistake...LOL...wouldn't that be a great way to calm our fury! [:P]
Blessings!
DAL
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Kent Hendricks said:
I'm sorry about this. Sometimes we blow it, and this is one of those times. Our enthusiasm to communicate the great discounts available on many new Baker Pre-Pubs, and our excitement about the availability of Moo's Galatians commentary came together in a way that was unintentionally misleading. The Moo image was selected only because it is one of the most-anticipated releases coming from Baker this fall. We have fixed the post. It is never our intention to be deceptive, and we thank you for calling us out on this.
Thank you, especially for not waiting until Monday.
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I too was one of those that was excited about the price of Moo's commentary at 40% off only to find I was mistaken.
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John said:
I will never understand why you can buy a Printed copy of a book and have it shipped cheaper than an electronic copy.
Understanding it is actually very easy. It is called, 'charging what the market will bear'.
Liking it is the hard part.
I also agree with Alabama's points above...adding to them the fact that electronic copies help pay for the paper copies, so the cost of the paper copy is partly built in to the electronic copy in the form of a license fee. After all, if the paper copy didn't exist, the electronic copy wouldn't exist either.
In other words, that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Charging what the market will bear is one of the strategies of market valuation.
Behold the NICOT/NICNT sale: The NICOT/NICNT is one of the most respected commentary sets in the world... But because it’s so prestigious, it doesn’t go on sale often.
But would-be marketing gurus out there will need to read this and this.
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Lee said:
Behold the NICOT/NICNT sale: The NICOT/NICNT is one of the most respected commentary sets in the world... But because it’s so prestigious, it doesn’t go on sale often.
Eh...? There are few resources Logos has on sale as often as that one. 2-3-4 times a year, from my experience.
Lee said:Very interesting, and indeed well worth reading.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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It's too bad this isn't among the Baker new releases: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801048737/
I learned about it from Scot McKnight's blog post today: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2013/05/15/one-and-only-one/
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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I guess what bothers me is that Moo's BEC on Galatians can be ordered as a paper book for for $26.95, so it is hard to see that the $40 price in Logos format is much of a bargain. I would prefer it with the Logos tagging and in our Logos library. But is it worth an extra $13 to me to have it in Logos? I have decided that the answer is "No". Of course, for others the answer will be "Yes", and that is okay with me. For me this marks a real change in my approach to building my library, after 18 years of trying to get everything in Logos. From now on, I am content with a more blended library. I will buy (mostly,I think) Logos books where practical, but also paper books, Kindle and other ebooks, where the savings warrant.
Actually, I have already bought some Kindle books that were not available in Logos (such as George Ladd's Commentary on Revelation, C. S. Lewis, etc.) I have found the reading experience of something like C. S. Lewis to be much, much superior with the Kindle iPad app than the Logos app. And I have found it no trouble to open a commentary like Ladd's Revelation, and alt tab back and forth between Logos. Certainly, not $13 worth of trouble for me. But, hey, that is just me. Not trying to tell anyone else what they should do.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0
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