When Did God Create Hell?
I know some of you will smile, perhaps others will roll their eyes, at the protestant Baptist seminarian (who is only a 2 point Calvinist and tonight I have forgotten which TULIP points) asking this foundational question but biblically speaking When Did God Create Hell?
How did you use Logos 5.0 to arrive at your answer please?
Please assume God DID create Hell for your replies.
God bless those with divergent theological views in this matter, but I am asking please for replies that do not mention purgatory. Thanks.
Respectfully,
Joshua
Comments
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I searched for the phrase "created hell" and "made hell", and found the following, which isn't much use:
It may be observed, in passing, that the Jewish Rabbinism has discovered strange reasons why, in the account of the second day, there does not also stand the expression: “He saw that it was good;” it was because, say they, on that day the apostate angels fell, because on it God created hell, or because the waters brought the flood over the world. (Lange's Commentary)
I also looked at commentaries on Matthew 25:41 using the Passage Guide, but didn't find anything useful there, either.
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Thanks brother, Mark.
Its one of those questions I need to answer before I preach on what Jesus about Hell and I always appreciate your responses/replies. I cannot be prepared for every question that is bound to be asked of me later after the sermon (where I do not remotely ask this question or attempt an answer) but I do want to have something that is Biblical. Perhaps - "Only God Almighty knows" will be enough.
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I've never heard such a question nor ever even guessed that it was possible to know (or necessary to know) when God created hell, assuming God did create it. We have a hard enough time arguing over when God created the earth. Do you really think it's possible to know when he created hell? There's obviously going to be no science that helps us with that one, and it's not revealed in Scripture, so it will all be speculation.
Nevertheless, I did find this (my bold): [EDIT: I see Mark Barnes already posted this first one for you before I had a chance to finish the rest of my post. I still hope the others are helpful.]
"It may be observed, in passing, that the Jewish Rabbinism has discovered strange reasons why, in the account of the second day, there does not also stand the expression: 'He saw that it was good;' it was because, say they, on that day the apostate angels fell, because on it God created hell, or because the waters brought the flood over the world."
John Peter Lange et al., A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Genesis (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2008), 191.
Likewise (again, my formatting):
"The Jews, to show God’s unwillingness to punish, imagine that hell was created the second day, because that day’s work is not pronounced good by God as all the other days’ works are225 (Gen. 1:8)."
Stephen Charnock, The Existence and Attributes of God, vol. 2 (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2002), 493.
Heavy emphasis on the word "imagine". [:)]
Footnote 225 says "Mercer in Gen." There is no bibliography that gives the full citation for this book, so I'm not sure what it is. Would like to look further into the Jewish Rabbinic speculation on this.
I did find in Legends of the Jews by Louis Ginzberg, in Chapter 1: The Creation of the World > The Second Day:
"The second day of creation was an untoward day in more than the one respect that it introduced a breach where before there had been nothing but unity; for it was the day that saw also the creation of hell. Therefore God could not say of this day as of the others, that He 'saw that it was good.' A division may be necessary, but it cannot be called good, and hell surely does not deserve the attribute of good.54"
Louis Ginzberg, Henrietta Szold, and Paul Radin, Legends of the Jews, 2nd ed. (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 2003), 8–13.
Footnote 54 explains more of where you might be able to find some of the original Jewish Rabbinic sources if you're interested in probing this further:
You might want to look at "A BRIEF HISTORY OF HELL" in Focusing on the Future: Key Prophecies and Practical Living, by Jack Hayford.
You might also want to look at "The Theology of 'Paradise Lost'" in Bibliotheca Sacra 105, no. 420 (Oct 1948). It mentions "Milton’s account of the creation of hell, earth and mankind." Thus you might also want to read Paradise Lost.
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Here's one from John of Damascus:
OUR CHOICE CREATES HELL. JOHN OF DAMASCUS: The dead shall rise again, and they that are in the graves shall awake. They that have kept the commandments of Christ and have departed this life in the true faith shall inherit eternal life; and they that have died in their sins and have turned aside from the right faith shall go away into eternal punishment. Do not believe that there is any true being or kingdom of evil or suppose that it is without beginning, or self-originated or born of God—forget such an absurdity! But believe rather that it is the work of us and the devil, come on us through our inattentiveness, because we were endowed with free will, and we made our choice, of deliberate purpose, whether it be good or evil. BARLAAM AND JOSEPH 19.164–65.28
Kenneth Stevenson and Michael Gluerup, Ezekiel, Daniel, Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture OT 13 (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2008), 305.
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Joshua Lieder said:
Perhaps - "Only God Almighty knows" will be enough.
The emphasis throughout Scripture, and in the resources I read whilst researching your question, was that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, rather than for people. I think that's good to remember. It may also suggest that hell was created after the fall of Satan, but before the fall of man. I don't think we can say any more than that.
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Joshua Lieder said:
Please assume God DID create Hell for your replies.
Maybe add "lake of fire" to any searches?
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Joshua Lieder said:
Perhaps - "Only God Almighty knows" will be enough.
The older I get, and the more "education" I receive (both formal and informal), the more I am inclined to answer this way. FWIW - I would encourage you to get a copy of Communicating for a Change by Andy Stanley. It is helpful as a balance to traditional homiletics courses.
EDIT: Thanks for helping me get the right title, Rosie. [:)]
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alabama24 said:
Communicate for a Change by Andy Stanley
Couldn't find a book by that title on Amazon.com (their search engine isn't smart like Google's to suggest: did you mean Communicating for a Change). Here's the link: http://amzn.com/B001E2WM54
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Yup. I seem to always mess the title up. I actually typed the correct one this time, and deleted it thinking I was wrong. [:S]
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Rosie Perera said:
Heavy emphasis on the word "imagine".
Methinks a wee bit of Creative Biblical Exegesis: Christian and Jewish Hermeneutics through the Centuries by Henning Graf-Reventflow and Benjamin Uffenheimer is needed.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:
Heavy emphasis on the word "imagine".
Methinks a wee bit of Creative Biblical Exegesis: Christian and Jewish Hermeneutics through the Centuries by Henning Graf-Reventflow and Benjamin Uffenheimer is needed.
Good! I've got that one. I'll have to have a look at it.
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Thank you Mark for saying what I was about to say when I read the title to this thread.Mark Barnes said:Joshua Lieder said:Perhaps - "Only God Almighty knows" will be enough.
The emphasis throughout Scripture, and in the resources I read whilst researching your question, was that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, rather than for people. I think that's good to remember. It may also suggest that hell was created after the fall of Satan, but before the fall of man. I don't think we can say any more than that.
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Joshua Lieder said:
I know some of you will smile, perhaps others will roll their eyes, at the protestant Baptist seminarian (who is only a 2 point Calvinist and tonight I have forgotten which TULIP points) asking this foundational question but biblically speaking When Did God Create Hell?
How did you use Logos 5.0 to arrive at your answer please?
Please assume God DID create Hell for your replies.
God bless those with divergent theological views in this matter, but I am asking please for replies that do not mention purgatory. Thanks.
Respectfully,
JoshuaNo Logos used. I understand that someone asked what God did before he created the universe to which the reply was that he created hell for those who asked. [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Mark Barnes said:
It may also suggest that hell was created after the fall of Satan, but before the fall of man. I don't think we can say any more than that.
I agree with saying "It may suggest.." that chronology. It is logical to man but could the omniscient God have created Hell before the fall of the angels? After all, he did foreordain our salvation before the fall of man. 1 Peter 1:19-20
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George Somsel said:
I understand that someone asked what God did before he created the universe to which the reply was that he created hell for those who asked.
That would be a paraphrase of Luther, unverified. I tend to agree with him. ;-)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
That would be a paraphrase of Luther, unverified. I tend to agree with him. ;-)
I thought it was Luther, but Calvin (who ought to know) attributes it to Augustine's Confessions 11:12:14. Augustine cites it disapprovingly:
Behold, I answer to him who asks, “What was God doing before He made heaven and earth?” I answer not, as a certain person is reported to have done facetiously (avoiding the pressure of the question), “He was preparing hell,” saith he, “for those who pry into mysteries.” It is one thing to perceive, another to laugh,—these things I answer not. For more willingly would I have answered, “I know not what I know not,” than that I should make him a laughing-stock who asketh deep things, and gain praise as one who answereth false things.
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Rosie, thanks...I really appreciate your reply and the others (some of which I just started reading).
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Here's your answer champ: Deuteronomy 29:29 I think this verse pretty much sums it up cabbish ;-)
Giovanni
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Giovanni Baggio said:
Here's your answer champ: Deuteronomy 29:29 I think this verse pretty much sums it up cabbish ;-)
Giovanni
I'm appreciating Joshua's searching for the truth, asking questions, engaging in dialog, listening, responding. Sounds alot like what the Apostles did. I wonder if our Lord and Savior wants us to do the same. Hmmm.
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Steve said:Giovanni Baggio said:
Here's your answer champ: Deuteronomy 29:29 I think this verse pretty much sums it up cabbish ;-)
Giovanni
I'm appreciating Joshua's searching for the truth, asking questions, engaging in dialog, listening, responding. Sounds alot like what the Apostles did. I wonder if our Lord and Savior wants us to do the same. Hmmm.
I'm sure you appreciate what Joshua is doing (and it's good) and I'm sure the apostles asked, but they received their information from the Lord himself and then the Holy Spirit guided them into all truth (which is what the Bible is all truth), not books written by others about what they think Jesus thought about something. If I wanna know what Jesus thought or taught about hell the Bible is the place to go and if the Bible doesn't tell me when hell was created then why should I worry about it? If the Bible only gives me a little bit of information to know enough that hell is the place of eternal punishment for the devil, his angels and all those who didn't do the will of God then that's it. Our concern should be avoiding going to that place not finding out petty details about it. I may go there I may not hopefully not but hey I'm not gonna break my head trying to figure out something that is not important and does not contribute one wheat to my salvation such as finding out when God created hell. I'm sure he'll tell you when you get to heaven. If I make it to heaven I got a list of questions I'll ask and even then if he chooses not to tell me hey that's fine secret things belong to him.
Thanks dude!
Giovanni
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Giovanni (Sir)
Is there any doubt that you will one day be in Heaven with Jesus eternally? I noted the word "if" in your reply. I seek to build you up and encouragedyou in the Lord in this my reply.
Jesus paid it all brother. I know we have "Help thou my unbelief" said by one boy's father in our Bible. Its a cry we can all relate to and cling to. Come Holy Spirit....thank you for sealing us forever in Christ. Amen
God bless your walk and your faith, Sir,
Respectfully,
Joshua0 -
Joshua Lieder said:
biblically speaking When Did God Create Hell?
How did you use Logos 5.0 to arrive at your answer please?
Tried searching for articles (heading text, heading title, large text, tag, topic, title) in entire library:
God BEFORE 7 WORDS (created,made) BEFORE 7 WORDS hell
but found nothing. For footnote searching, learned 0-7 finds more results than 7. Searching surface text found a number of sentences.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thanks Keep...awesome use of Logos!
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Joshua Lieder said:
Thanks Keep...awesome use of Logos!
Yes! Keep Smiling! awesome indeed ................ Thank you! Peace! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Joshua,
I fear that I cannot answer your questions any more than the others who have posted, but perhaps I might be able to help with your deliberations regarding the discussion. To my way of thinking, you will need to resolve at least three questions to your satisfaction before even being able approach this question well.
1. This is a point of clarification: when you ask of hell, what are you speaking of? This thought is implied in some of the answers given but I have not seen it explicitly stated above. Are you speaking of Sheol, Hades, or the lake of fire? If you make no distinction between these three, this is a moot point. However, if you happen to follow the tradition that believes sheol to be distinct from the Lake of fire, your question needs to be refined to express the one or the other.
2. This point is somewhat contingent on how you resolve the previous point. When do you understand the angels to have been created and have fallen? Again previous people posting have alluded to this, but have not expressed it explicitly. Some look to Job 38:4-7 as saying that the creation of angels preceded at least Gen 1:2, and possibly Gen 1:1 depending on the view. This view is by no means universal, but if you desire to think well through the establishment of eternal punishment, you have to consider those for whom it was established. Towards that end you also have to decide when you understand the angels to have fallen. Certainly I believe it must precede the actions of Satan in Genesis 3, but beyond that I leave you to work through that on your own.
3. Finally you must ask the question was "hell" however you have decided to resolve what that entails, created preemptively prior to the existence of sin whether angelic or human, because of the omniscience of God, or was it done subsequently? Here your understanding of the nature and character of God must come into play. Does God ever "respond" to situations? How extensive is the omniscience and foreknowledge of God? Etc.
Because scripture does not explicitly answer these questions (I continue to ask the Lord why he never included a book of systematic theology in scripture but so far He hasn't replied) you will have to engage in a certain amount of deductive reasoning and application of philosophical thought to your problem. I realize that even expressing those words in this context may make some shudder, but I think that to be the case.
I know this doesn't answer your question, but hopefully it will help you work through however you resolve it. One final thought. I believe that we who preach the Word will be called to account before the Lord for what we teach. If you agree, you may also want to give great thought as to what extent you wish to teach from the pulpit on a topic that requires philosophical expansion. -Tim
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Great post. [Y]
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[Y] [Y]
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Tim! *smile* Thank you so very much! Brilliant post!
Psalm 29:11
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I find it hilarious that some of the most vocal people on the Hell debates do not even believe it exists. Why debate "details?"
A straw man if I ever saw one.
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"Hell" doesn't exist...as Tim's post pointed out. "Hell" is a catch-all English term used to refer to a variety of not-so-similar concepts found in the Hebrew and Greek. Certainly something does exist...but that thing or things emphatically doesn't correspond to the "common" notion of Hell.
For that matter, the same can be said for "heaven", given the comments by Giovanni and Joshua at the top of this page...i.e. no one "goes" to heaven--which in turn casts credible doubt upon "security" that is based on a demonstrable inaccuracy.
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"details." The devil is in the details. [6]
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Odd...I always thought the Truth was.
[^o)]
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Touche Then I refer you to this post above.David Paul said:Odd...I always thought the Truth was.
You can not prove a negative. Unless one goes to Hell and sees it is not there and comes back to report his findings, I will stick with Jesus' presupposition that it indeed does exist.
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Run a search on hades OR hell in the Perseus English classics.
Look up the word hell, lake of fire, etc., run a word study and compare the greek of the N.T., with the Perseus classics in Logos.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Super Tramp said:
Touche Then I refer you to this post above.David Paul said:Odd...I always thought the Truth was.
You can not prove a negative. Unless one goes to Hell and sees it is not there and comes back to report his findings, I will stick with Jesus' presupposition that it indeed does exist.
Of course hell exists—we create it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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It is probably bad theology but consider this;
If God warns Man of the possibility of man entering Hell as a deterrent to that end, could God have also created Hell prior to the fall of Angels so they could also have fore-warning of the possibility of going there?
This , of course, assumes:
- God has fore-knowledge
- Angels have free will
- Man has free will
- God cares for His creation
*Disregard this post at will [C]
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George Somsel said:Super Tramp said:
Touche Then I refer you to this post above.David Paul said:Odd...I always thought the Truth was.
You can not prove a negative. Unless one goes to Hell and sees it is not there and comes back to report his findings, I will stick with Jesus' presupposition that it indeed does exist.
Of course hell exists—we create it.
George, if I remember correctly according to Sartre we are it.
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Oldnewbie said:George Somsel said:Super Tramp said:
Touche Then I refer you to this post above.David Paul said:Odd...I always thought the Truth was.
You can not prove a negative. Unless one goes to Hell and sees it is not there and comes back to report his findings, I will stick with Jesus' presupposition that it indeed does exist.
Of course hell exists—we create it.
George, if I remember correctly according to Sartre we are it.
I was thinking that he thought it was someplace rainy and damp like Amsterdam, but that may have been Camus.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Interesting thought. Since Sartre was born and died in Paris, perhaps he was talking about his neighbors.
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George Somsel said:
I was thinking that he thought it was someplace rainy and damp like Amsterdam, but that may have been Camus.
Whaha, I'm from the Netherlands. Watch your words dear friend. Amsterdam might not be heaven, but until we get in heaven it is probably one of the better places to be
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George Somsel said:
I was thinking that he thought it was someplace rainy and damp like Amsterdam, but that may have been Camus.
Whaha, I'm from the Netherlands. Watch your words dear friend. Amsterdam might not be heaven, but until we get in heaven it is probably one of the better places to be
Not MY opinion.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Amsterdam might not be heaven, but until we get in heaven it is probably one of the better places to be
Must have changed a lot since I was there in 1957 [8-|]. Rotterdam, on the other hand, was a distinct pleasure to visit.
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Supertramp...I chose to REGARD this email as I would any brother sharing actual Biblical Truth - with appreciation and applause that God made it possible for you to know and share.
All Glory Be His - and just to keep this Logos focused too - God bless the Logos developers and any authors with resources about Hell that should get published in here.
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God did not create hell. Hell is not a place but a state of being. A state of being beyond the grace of God through our own actions. This is not a physical state.
When Lucifer defied God, he fell out of grace.
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they also fell out of grace. Through the sin of the first man, grace was withdrawn him and his descendants.
Until we repent, we will remain in this state.
What is this state of hell ???
Deprived of all the goods things God created in the 6 days of creation. Not clear. The grace and spirit of God was withdrawn from mankind.
Then God sent prophets and messages for mankind to return to the obedience of God. Man was still stubborn. Then God came down in the form of Jesus to establish obedience and trust in God. Grace was restored.
But has man repented and accepted this grace??? There are still those who chose to stay in hell.
Can you imagine the pain Jesus suffered physically?? Can you imagine the pain Mary suffered emotionally? All in submission and obedience to God.
The Bible, the quran and 3 billion christians and muslims will testify that Jesus and Mary are sinless. The Bible, the quran and 3 billion Christians and muslims will testify that Jesus was raised to heaven body and soul, is alive today and will come again to defeat sin.
Hell is a state in God where his grace is absent. Just like the desert is part of the earth that is barren. You know how to get there. You also know how to get to better places. You chose. God has given you guidance through the centuries.
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JoshInRI said:
God bless the Logos developers and any authors with resources about Hell that should get published in here.
Noel — or should that be "no hell"?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Is hell a "place" inside or outside of space and time? If outside (what I believe) then asking "when" is quite irrelevant.
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Jack Adams said:
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they also fell out of grace. Through the sin of the first man, grace was withdrawn him and his descendants.
Rubbish of the first order--'Aadhaam & Hhawwaah RECEIVED GRACE when they disobeyed. YHWH provided them covering. I could flesh this out, of course, but then folks would jump in and remind us that this forum is not for hashing out doctrine.
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Jack Adams said:
God did not create hell.
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Jack Adams said:
God did not create hell. Hell is not a place but a state of being. A state of being beyond the grace of God through our own actions. This is not a physical state.
When Lucifer defied God, he fell out of grace.
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they also fell out of grace. Through the sin of the first man, grace was withdrawn him and his descendants.
Until we repent, we will remain in this state.
What is this state of hell ???
Deprived of all the goods things God created in the 6 days of creation. Not clear. The grace and spirit of God was withdrawn from mankind.
Then God sent prophets and messages for mankind to return to the obedience of God. Man was still stubborn. Then God came down in the form of Jesus to establish obedience and trust in God. Grace was restored.
But has man repented and accepted this grace??? There are still those who chose to stay in hell.
Can you imagine the pain Jesus suffered physically?? Can you imagine the pain Mary suffered emotionally? All in submission and obedience to God.
The Bible, the quran and 3 billion christians and muslims will testify that Jesus and Mary are sinless. The Bible, the quran and 3 billion Christians and muslims will testify that Jesus was raised to heaven body and soul, is alive today and will come again to defeat sin.
Hell is a state in God where his grace is absent. Just like the desert is part of the earth that is barren. You know how to get there. You also know how to get to better places. You chose. God has given you guidance through the centuries.
Uh...Ok?
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