Proximity search with Greek Lemmas

I am looking to find all the locations of the lemmas γινώσκω or ἐπιγινώσκω near οἶδα. It appears that a Proximity Search can be performed use Manuscript words only, not Lemmas. When I perform the search with lemmas, e.g. 'γινώσκω NEAR οἶδα' I get 0 results. When I use the more narrow manuscript form 'ἔγνων NEAR ᾔδειν', I get an expected result from Rom. 7:7. Is there any way to perform a proximity search with Lemmas, not just manuscript terms? Thank you for any help available.

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Allen Browne

How about:
<Lemma = lbs/el/γινώσκω> NEAR <Lemma = lbs/el/οἶδα>

You can right-click the word in an English text (such as Rom 7:7), choose Lemma, and "Search This Resource".Logos then builds the expression for you.

Mark Barnes

I am looking to find all the locations of the lemmas γινώσκω or ἐπιγινώσκω near οἶδα. It appears that a Proximity Search can be performed use Manuscript words only, not Lemmas. When I perform the search with lemmas, e.g. 'γινώσκω NEAR οἶδα' I get 0 results. When I use the more narrow manuscript form 'ἔγνων NEAR ᾔδειν', I get an expected result from Rom. 7:7. Is there any way to perform a proximity search with Lemmas, not just manuscript terms? Thank you for any help available.

It's usually easiest to use a morph search when looking for lemmas. The syntax there is simply lemma:γινώσκω NEAR lemma:οἶδα. You can either enter the Greek characters directly into the search field, or type g:ginosko [select the right verb] NEAR g:oida [ditto].

That said, using NEAR doesn't find Romans 7:7 (although using AND will). NEAR means within 47 characters, and in Romans 7:7 the words are just slightly too far apart.

Matt Jarka

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/503937#Comment_503937

Thanks Allen, this was very helpful! The search syntax you suggested worked perfectly with 26 results in 12 verses.

Matt Jarka

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/503959#Comment_503959

Thanks Mark, this was very helpful. The search syntax you suggested (lemma:γινώσκω NEAR lemma:οἶδα) worked perfectly with the same 26 results in 12 verses. I was able to see Ro 7:7 using NEAR in the Greek New Testament: SBL Edition. When I use the Swanson Greek New Testament Morphology (UBS 4 Edition), there are only 16 results in 8 verses, not including Ro 7:7 as you were referring to (although you may not have been referring to this exact GNT, the possibility that it may not appear is real). For good measure, I used the Swanson Greek New Testament Morphology (Westcott & Hort Edition), and produced a similar list of 19 results in 9 verses.

I'm going to research the NEAR and WITHIN syntax more. The search string lemma:γινώσκω WITHIN 60 CHARS lemma:οἶδα using Swanson UBS4 included Ro 7:7 where NEAR's pre-defined 48 character limit would not. As expected, increasing the number of WITHIN CHARS increases the number of results. I'll look into this further. Thank you for your help; it is greatly appreciated.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/504010#Comment_504010

As expected, increasing the number of WITHIN CHARS increases the number of results. I'll look into this further. Thank you for your help; it is greatly appreciated.

The only thing you have to watch for is that when you're doing a morph search, Logos will only look for words that are near to each other, AND in the same verse. It won't find places where one word is in one verse, and the other word in another verse.

However, if you do a basic search, this limitation doesn't apply. You may therefore want to use Allen's syntax in a basic search. (Or use my syntax in a morph search and then switch to basic - the extra detail will be added in automatically be Logos.)

Matt Jarka

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/504029#Comment_504029

Is there a known reason why the related, but slightly more logically complex proximity search "(γινώσκω OR ἐπιγινώσκω) NEAR οἶδα" returns 0 results?

I've determined that "ἐπιγινώσκω NEAR οἶδα" genuinely has no results, but "γινώσκω NEAR οἶδα" produces 26 results in a Morph search using GNTSBL. I would therefore expect the logical proximity search to also produce the same 26 results. Is there a problem with my syntax? Thank you.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/504727#Comment_504727

Is there a known reason why the related, but slightly more logically complex proximity search "(γινώσκω OR ἐπιγινώσκω) NEAR οἶδα" returns 0 results?

Yes, there is, and if often catches people out. You need to use lists, nor OR: http://wiki.logos.com/detailed_search_help#Using_lists (that section tells you what does work, if you scroll up a bit, you'll see an explanation as to why OR doesn't work).

Matt Jarka

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/504750#Comment_504750

Thank you Mark; that was a huge help!

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/504029#Comment_504029

Hi Mark,

Even a Basic Search, using either syntax that both you and Allen recommended, does not yield results across verses. Any suggestions?

Carl

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/564546#Comment_564546

As Mark suggested run the Morph search and then click on Basic to get the right format. After removing descriptive text the syntax is

<lemma = lbs/el/γινώσκω> WITHIN 48 CHARS <lemma = lbs/el/οἶδα>

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/564559#Comment_564559

Tried that. Must be something that I'm doing wrong. All my hits are in the same verse and not trans versed.

If you have time, can you provide a step by step instruction for a lemma search which yields results across multiple verses? I just can't seem to get it.

For instance a search for συντρέχω within 30 words of σπλαγχνίζομαι should yield a hit of Mark 6.33-34, but it doesn't.

Much appreciated,

Carl

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565194#Comment_565194

a search for συντρέχω within 30 words of σπλαγχνίζομαι should yield a hit of Mark 6.33-34,

1. This is a lemma search so set it up in Morph Search (note where capitals are used):

2. Click Basic

It is now setup for a Basic Search

3. Tidy the search term and correct the resource

If you want to be more correct, search Bible Text instead of All Text.

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565216#Comment_565216

Thanks.

Your instructions return hits for the 'bibles' in my library, but does not return hits the non-biblical references in my library e.g The Works of Philo: Greek Text with Morphology, etc..

Any idea why?

Carl

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565226#Comment_565226

Thanks.

Your instructions return hits for the 'bibles' in my library, but does not return hits the non-biblical references in my library e.g The Works of Philo: Greek Text with Morphology, etc..

Any idea why?

Carl

If you did the same search that Dave posted this would be the case for it only searches biblical texts. You would need to expand your search if you wish to include Philo etc. Ideally it would be good to search a collection of similar materials.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565226#Comment_565226

but does not return hits the non-biblical references in my library e.g The Works of Philo: Greek Text with Morphology, etc..

I don't have that, but you should be able to select The Works of Philo as the resource in Morph Search and check the morphology. If Logos Greek Morphology the same search terms will work, so if you get zero results it means those lemmas aren't present or the proximity is wrong (or both). If the morphology is different set up the Morph Search as before and search for each lemma to see if they exist e.g. lemma:συντρέχω and lemma:σπλαγχνίζομαι exist in my Apostolic Fathers resources, but they aren't closely related!

The OP search for <lemma = lbs/el/γινώσκω> WITHIN 80 CHARACTERS <lemma = lbs/el/οἶδα> has results (with more than the original 48 chars).

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565226#Comment_565226

Hi Carl

Your instructions return hits for the 'bibles' in my library, but does not return hits the non-biblical references in my library e.g The Works of Philo: Greek Text with Morphology, etc..

It should work as below

Are you doing something different?

Graham

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565350#Comment_565350

Another way to do this search is to make a collection of all Greek material within a particular range. That way both biblical and non-biblical materials are included in the same search. This is an advantage of collections.

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565367#Comment_565367

Hi All,

The problem is when I do a lemma proximity search in Philo (or any non-biblical greek text) all of the results are in the same verse. I want to do a proximity search of non-biblical greek texts with the results being 'across verses' (trans versed). All of the solutions provided thus far (btw....thank you) do not provide trans versed results of non-biblical texts. For instance when I try searching for these two words φιλοσοφέω κεφαλή (WITHIN 20 WORDS) in Philo, I do not get a result across Decalogue 57-58 even though it is there. What am I missing?

Peace,

Carl

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565404#Comment_565404

Hi Carl

For instance when I try searching for these two words φιλοσοφέω κεφαλή (WITHIN 20 WORDS) in Philo, I do not get a result across Decalogue 57-58 even though it is there. What am I missing?

Whatever you are missing I'm missing the same thing[:)]

For those who don't have this resource - the screenshot below demonstrates the problem

The panel on the right shows the relevant part of the Philo text
The two searches at the bottom left are for the individual words - showing they get hits and these are causing the highlights in the words on the right panel
The search at the top shows the lack of results

Any insights from anyone?

Graham

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565404#Comment_565404

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. This is standard (but dumb) Logos behaviour, that we've consistently asked be changed. Logos won't do proximity searches across articles. Usually article boundaries coincide with TOC headings, which means the English text of Philo is fine for proximity searching, because it only has TOC headings at the beginning of each work, whereas the Greek text has headings at the beginning of each section.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565432#Comment_565432

Here's hoping that this will be changed in the future.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565445#Comment_565445

I should add that I cast my votes to have this changed.

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565432#Comment_565432

I see.

So each verse of Philo (and all other non-biblical greek texts) is treated as a 'section'?

If Philo did not intend for us to use verses and sections to define his thought, then why should Logos? [^o)]

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565432#Comment_565432

I just voted Mark. Good call.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565452#Comment_565452

So each verse of Philo (and all other non-biblical greek texts) is treated as a 'section'?

"article" is the term Logos use. It is a chapter in bibles but varies in other resources. The main criterion is length as proximity searches can take a very long time in "large" articles.

If Philo did not intend for us to use verses and sections to define his thought, then why should Logos?

A conventional text search doesn't have constructs for the author's "thought", unlike a Syntax Search with Clauses, Sentences, Phrases, Words. A Text Search can only approximate word relationships via proximity and morphology and is dependent on the "article" that Logos chooses.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565553#Comment_565553

The main criterion is length as proximity searches can take a very long time in "large" articles.

The main criterion is a logical boundary. Length is a secondary consideration.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565570#Comment_565570

Yes - I was thinking about a non-lengthy logical boundary[:)]

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565570#Comment_565570

The boundaries in Philo don't seem logical in that Logos treats each verse as an 'article'. Granted the verses in Philo are longish, but the sections (which are logical divisions) in Philo are about the same length as an average biblical chapter. Why didn't Logos use the sections instead of the verses as logical boundaries?

Carl

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565606#Comment_565606

Why didn't Logos use the sections instead of the verses as logical boundaries?

Some of Philo's works are quite long - De aeternitate mundi, for example is 150 sections. With all the interlinear data, that's pretty long - and long articles cause performance issues. If the works had subheadings, I'm sure they would have been used instead of section numbers. It would have been best if they'd grouped section numbers together (§1-20, §21-40), but I guess the problems of proximity searching weren't sufficiently thought through when that decision was made.

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565615#Comment_565615

I'm still looking (probably in vain) for a work around. [^]

It seems that some of Philo's work (e.g. De specialibus legibus, Quis rerum divinarum heres sit, etc...) have section numbers grouped together. But still they don't turn up in trans versed proximity searches.

Look at the table of contents for De specialibus legibus and notice the section groupings of 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, etc.....

What do you think?

Carl B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/565638#Comment_565638

The Logos mobile app's 'lookup box' portrays Younge's English Translation of Philo's Special Laws 2 verse 12 as both 'Philyng 28.3' and 'Phil 28.0.12', whilst the Greek Morphology of Philo's Special Laws verse 12 is portrayed only as Phil 28.0.12.

I suppose Philyng 28.3 means:

Philyng = Philo, Younge translation

28 = The 28th book of Philo

3 = The 3rd section of the 28th book.

And I suppose that the Phil 28.0.12 means:

Phil = Philo

28 = The 28th 'book' of Philo

0 = I don't know (a place holder for 'chapters/sections'??) [:D]

12 = the 12th verse

Problem is, is if that 0 is a placeholder, then the following number (for verse) would need to be relative to the section number. For instance, something like Phil 28.3.1 would mean:

Phil = The Works of Philo

28 = The 28th book

3 = The 3rd section of the 28th book

1 = The 1st verse, of the 3rd section of the 28th book.

Essentially Logos would have to re-index all of Philo's (both Greek and English) work to make the proximity search work properly, eh?

As a tangent.....strange thing is, is that when I manually type, lets say... Phil 28.0.44 into the lookup box of the both the Greek and English version, the Mobile App doesn't recognize it. The resource in the App should advance to Special Laws 2 verse 44, but it doesn't.

Have you encountered this?

Philip Jackson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/504029#Comment_504029

Sorry for bringing up this old post,

but seemingly the problem has not been solved yet.

It is still not possible to do "WITHIN-searches" accross the boundaries of a single bible verse.

I have tried the work-around that goes via morph to basic search and it worked OK.

But does that not mean that I have to do that work-around EVERY time I do a "WITHIN-search" or something similar in morph-mode because I can never be sure that I do not miss an important verse?!

And does that not mean that morph-search is giving out FALSE results?

Let me specify what I mean by "FALSE": How often have we heared a preacher say "there is NO VERSE IN THE BIBLE that says so-and-so". Well, such claims can be quite convincing in certain contexts provided they are TRUE. But if we rely on searches that provide results that are defective in the sense that they don´t find verses that ACTUALLY DO EXIST, then such a search and the subsequent conclusion is misleading and FALSE.

And even if we exclude this "no verse in the bible - claim", it still makes me nerveous when there is always the possibility of missing important verses in my sermon preparation.

Of course, it is everyone´s own responsibility to know his bible without a bible software, but yet we do want to exploit the potential of such search tools as in Logos.

I think it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that the searches are RELIABLE AND TRUE. But they are NOT if I miss certain verses because of the described limitation of morph searches within a bible verse. The verse divisions - as we all know - are not inspired and oftimes not at all fitting the original language (see Eph. 1:3-14 -- one single sentence in Greek, but MANY verses in the translations).

So, seeing that 2-3 years have passed since the original discussion and that the problem still exists, I would like to encourage once more that this FAULT should be fixed very soon.

I do not think that this request falls into the "nice-to-have" category. We are not talking about a feature we would like to have because we would like to have an additional tool to play with. I think this is a true FAULT / BUG / DEFICIENCY in the programme like an engine that only works on two cylinders instead of four, or a calculator that displays a "4" when you press the number "3". It definitely needs fixings soon!

I need to be able to rely on my search results. Otherwise it does not make sense to use them or even integrate in the programme at all.

So may I very politely ask once more on behalf of the "search-community" that this problem will be solved soon?

Thanks very much.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/798634#Comment_798634

But does that not mean that I have to do that work-around EVERY time I do a "WITHIN-search" or something similar in morph-mode because I can never be sure that I do not miss an important verse?!

Yes, unless you want to repeat a previous search.

And does that not mean that morph-search is giving out FALSE results?

Let me specify what I mean by "FALSE": ...

Yes, by your definition (I won't quibble over your singular "VERSE in the bible").

I think it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that the searches are RELIABLE AND TRUE. But they are NOT if I miss certain verses because of the described limitation of morph searches within a bible verse. The verse divisions - as we all know - are not inspired and oftimes not at all fitting the original language (see Eph. 1:3-14 -- one single sentence in Greek, but MANY verses in the translations).

It is a known limitation which is why a more RELIABLE AND TRUE option exists in converting a Morph Search to a Basic Search provided you understand its constraints i.e. the limitation of operators in selecting meaningful, related results over the span of an arbitrary number of words (using WITHIN) or over the span of an entire bible chapter (using AND).

I need to be able to rely on my search results.

Syntax Search allows you to set the boundaries of your search - from Phrase, Clause, Sentence to unlimited! So you can more reliably capture related results because the boundary (usually Clause) is related to the "thought" of the original author.