Help! What should an SDA base package look like?
I have a preliminary meeting in several hours to discuss the composition of SDA base package/s. Dream with me, would you? Think in terms of the big picture--envision themes more specific individual resources. Any mention of specific resources please put in the context of a larger category.
And please be patient with me as I'll be consulting this thread for your input, but I can't respond individually to every post, except perhaps to ask you to clarify what you mean. So I'll keep your input on one screen as I'm working on the other screen at my desk, trying finish developing an initial proposal to present at my 4:00 meeting with my marketing supervisor.
I'll pray for you as you share ideas, and I solicit your prayers as I evaluate them in the context with what I've already formulated.
I'll share what I can as soon as I can--might be a few days. Remember at this stage everything is just tentative and preliminary--something to pitch to management and get their input as well.
Right now I'm heading off for a quick lunch. God bless you guys.
Comments
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Martin, it is rather difficult to give suggestions until we know which resources will be available in Logos, but here goes.
1. Academic Package: Teachers, students, continuing Ed.
2. Lay Ministry: Resources aimed at those not willing to jump in the deep end.
3. Children's Ministry: Resources aimed at Children and those who teach them.
4. Youth/Young Adult Ministry: Resources targeted at our Youth to help them build their faith.
Eventually, allow authors to write for Logos, without going through a traditional publishing house, once they have met the "vetting process" that can be set up. The vetting process may be:
a. Member of Adventist Church in regular standing
b. Local Pastor and Conference Admin signs off on it.
Just shooting in the wind for now.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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I like the sound of your response!
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Not to forget the Master package, which would include all of the above, with dynamic pricing.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Bump.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Martin Weber said:
Dream with me, would you? Think in terms of the big picture--
If you have not reviewed what Verbum has to offer check out:
http://scripturestudysoftware.com/If you have Logos 5 you have Verbum.
To turn Verbum on in the command box type "set Verbum to Yes"
To get back to Logos in the command box type "set Verbum to No"While there start a search and see that there are three preset collections
Catechism, Church Documents, and Church Fathers
You may not have any of the resources to use them but I hope you get the idea.Open the home page and see a Lectionary and the Verbum Blog open
What I expected of new special interest groups: the Seventh-day Adventist, the Orthodox and all others is the entire effort that the Catholic group has offered:
Yes, packages allowing that group to fully learn their beliefs.
But also help in finding the resources.
And yes, a Blog to explain "things"Do we want a SDA version of Verbum? Most likely not needed. Just the needed collections.
[[Have not looked into it yet but saw something about swapping collection definitions between users - That will be useful for all of the groups]]0 -
Hi David
Apparently there are some subtle differences between Logos and Verbum other than base packages
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2012/11/verbum-the-new-logos-for-catholics/
Off hand, I can't see any need for this type of use for an SDA package but I can imagine that some of our more conservative brethren might be more inclined to jump on board with an SDA badged version of Logos. OK, we might well consider their attitude to be a little sad but if it helps to them get the benefits of the Logos engine it is worth it. They might even be tempted to buy some goodies to be found outside the SDA fold!Just my "two-penneth".
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JohnLBUK said:
Off hand, I can't see any need for this type of use for an SDA package but I can imagine that some of our more conservative brethren might be more inclined to jump on board with an SDA badged version of Logos.
And DAVID SAID: Do we want a SDA version of Verbum? Most likely not needed. Just the needed collections.
What if each group gets a web page and Blog. [not just the SDA group]
with pointers to resources, blog, and other 'things' related to that group
Yes, it is nice to have resources but the Verbum group added value. They had a resent blog on how to study the CCC. The SDA WILL HAVE a blog on how to study the works of Sister White. I have no clue what the other groups would blog but some similar studies.
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Lynden Williams said:
Martin, it is rather difficult to give suggestions until we know which resources will be available in Logos, but here goes.
1. Academic Package: Teachers, students, continuing Ed.
2. Lay Ministry: Resources aimed at those not willing to jump in the deep end.
3. Children's Ministry: Resources aimed at Children and those who teach them.
4. Youth/Young Adult Ministry: Resources targeted at our Youth to help them build their faith.
Eventually, allow authors to write for Logos, without going through a traditional publishing house, once they have met the "vetting process" that can be set up. The vetting process may be:
a. Member of Adventist Church in regular standing
b. Local Pastor and Conference Admin signs off on it.
Just shooting in the wind for now.
I was very impressed with the general idea Lyndon had of packages appealing to different groups rather than the escalating depth packages that Logos seems to be currently using.
Whether this would work I know not but I think it would be great if it did.
If we do not get more SDA Logos users then we will have increasing difficulty getting books through pre-pub. Edwin on another thread suggested trying to get the NAD conferences to provide the Logos basic package to all ministers. Although one is 'only' talking about $300 that is a lot for each minister when there are no specific SDA items in it. It confirms a need for a basic SDA package at no more than $300 to be available asap. It would need to be attractive to both ministers AND the conference administrators who may well not already be Logos users themselves. I should add that my initial reaction to SDA packages was rather negative. I now see it as essential if at all possible. Yes I am selfish here as I want more SDA books on Logos and this seems to be the best way to achieve it. It may mean that Martin (if he is not already doing so) will need to do quite a bit of chatting with administrators. And he thought he had left all that behind!!
The basic package could be a common core to categories 1 to 3 of Lyndon's suggested list above and it goes without saying that all categories above basic will have dynamic pricing.
Hopefully both the R&H and Logos will see a future in making a basic SDA package available with negligible profit to both parties in order to get an attractive package at a reasonable price that will attract SDA people on board Logos for the future.0 -
John, you and I are thinking along the same lines. I have in final form 3 SDA base packages to propose to Logos management next Thursday, plus a 4th one in development. I'm working hard to keep the price down yet include as much as possible of ALL the many suggestions for resources that came to me on this Forum, Faithlife and Facebook groups of SDA pastors young adults, etc.
My goal for the basic base package is $294. I can't promise that but I'm working hard to achieve that. The top BP includes a local church package with Gold for the pastor and a $300 allowance for every elder and Sabbath school teacher--plus a Proclaim license. The middle BP will be for SDA professionals, with an added bundle for specific professions such as chaplains, teachers, etc.
Many discussions and negotiations are taking place. It is all extremely complex but I'm working hard as possible to make things happen. I think its safe to say that by God's grace there will be at least one SDA base package for sale before the end of the year.
Meanwhile, we are pulling together a SDA landing page--we anticipate our own storefront and app.
That's all I can say at this point. Please pray that the hand of God will help us make it work.
Your SDA servant at Logos,
Martin
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Martin Weber said:
I think its safe to say that by God's grace there will be at least one SDA base package for sale before the end of the year.
It is fantastic that it looks as if things are progressing. I know that unforeseen problems can happen and cause delays but I hope that they are non-existent. Another thing that I hope that makes it to the final cut is dynamic pricing. Thanks for your work.
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Great News Martin!
Hopefully the BPs will have a good balance of all our 6 Doctrines (God, Man, Salvation, Church, Christian Life, Last Things).
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Keep the good work!
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Yes, you speak of the general categories of systematic theology that we share with all biblical Christians. Along with that we will focus on the pillars of SDA faith: Sabbath, Second Coming, Sanctuary/Judgment, State of Life in Christ Alone, and Spiritual Gifts (including the gift of prophecy entrusted to EGW).
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Thank you, Edwin. The possibilities of what all of us can do together at Logos is both mind-numbing and soul-inspiring to me.
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The monumental work by Richard Davidson (Andrews University) on sexual ethics in the Old Testament was released today in Logos. Since it is "hidden" inside expensive bundles, I hope Martin is able to cherry pick this book into a Seventh-day Adventist base package.
http://www.logos.com/product/23987/baker-academic-old-testament-backgrounds#011https://www.logos.com/product/24042/baker-academic-biblical-studies-bundle#024
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Hi Martin
I had not seen your post before and do not understand the background to the discussions.
However, this is what I would like to add. I truly appreciate having the Ellen G White resources in Logos.
I believe that the first step is to properly tag these resources so that when a search is conducted we can get the bible ref hits that are included in the document. As of now, these verses/passages are not tagged so no hit comes back. Please, please, this must be the first step before moving on to something else. I am sure you will agree that the power of logos is the ability to search resources. May God richly bless you and lead you successfully to this reality with the EG White resources that are already in Logos.
God Bless.
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This is in process. I hope that updated EGW writings, re-tagged for the latest searching technology, will be included in all the upcoming SDA base packages. Anyone who already owns the resource will be the upgrade free.
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Garfield Joseph said:
I believe that the first step is to properly tag these resources
The ePub date is 2002 and the last update of the files is 2003. As I understand some of the situation is that the White Estate has offered updated files [typo fixes] to the e-Publisher but they were not accepted as the e-Publisher was not interesting in updating the White files. The White Estate has made the files available in some other format.
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I was not here during that time. I can affirm that the files were originally tagged in the now outdated Libronix format back around 2003 and that now Logos is working on getting the files updated. And we hope to have this done by the end of the year.
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Hi Martin
This is great news. Do you know when this will be completed. This has been in the works now for several years. So anything you can do to speed up the process will be highly appreciated. God Bless !
Garfield
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Greetings Martin,
I do know at the Seminary students discuss whether Logos will offer a SDA package. The other question is if Logos will incorporate EGW writings as it is offered on the Comprehensive Research CD rom? I have the "so called Mac version" and is not a mac version, it is done through wine and wine mimics a window environment. It's not very stable. However, the Logos edition does not have all that is on the CD rom for example the Adventist Pioneers, and how about tagging for searching. I'm sure you may have the CD Rom to check with what Logos offers. Is there a way this can be like the CD rom? With Logos it could be so much better.
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JohnBluk said "Edwin on another thread suggested trying to get the NAD conferences to provide the Logos basic package to all ministers."
I totally agree on this. Another idea is to have it available for the undergraduate program schools for student that would use this. I know at Southern they really pushed Bible works but the students are not impressed with BW, they think its a bit too old and don't like the U.I. If you asked them they either wanted Logos or Accordance. If there is an SDA package it could easily be sold in those book stores. Contact the religion department deans and the committee's will discuss and I'm sure it will pass.
I know Bibleworks is sold on campus and students are able to put it on their student accounts. Professors told us that if 10 packages were sold it was like $325 price. Maybe if you sold 10 or more of Logos you could get them the SDA package and the language, preaching, exegetical tools. I know Dr. Lake at Southern is really into Logos so you have one apologist on your side.
THe concern is or shall I say the perception is that Logos is not for serious bible study but only a electronic book app. and for serious bible study BW or Accordance is the tool. I don't know how to change their perception on how Logos has really changed and can do every thing BW and Acc. can do plus more.
So, NAD level, seminary level, and all Adventist undergrad levels. I think you could really push some through year in and out and drive prices down. My 2 cents...
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Rev. 14:6 said:
However, the Logos edition does not have all that is on the CD rom for example the Adventist Pioneers,
EGW did not found SDA all by herself. Many of the works covered by the Adventist Pioneers are gems and are needed in any deep search on the history of the Adventist movement.
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There is a lot of wisdom here, John and Edwin, and I'm having discussions on academic base packages or at least bulk sales of the new SDA base packages when they come out late this
year.
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True David, that is why I would like to see the Adventist pioneers in the EGW package.
Martin, what happens for those of us who already have Logos and a some of the SDA books? I affirm everything and all your hard work, blessings...
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We certainly will have SDA base packages, and I hope that we can have special academic bundles (at least--maybe even a SDA academic base package) for Andrews and the other universities and colleges.
Regarding EGW, we are currently re-tagging her writings. They will be up to speed with the latest indexing technology and will work wonderfully across all platforms, including Macs for those of us in that world. Those who have already purchased her writings will get a free upgrade.
We hope this can be accomplished by the end of the year. I've had several discussions about that this week, and it's in process.
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Rev. 14:6 said:
...
THe concern is or shall I say the perception is that Logos is not for serious bible study but only a electronic book app. and for serious bible study BW or Accordance is the tool. I don't know how to change their perception on how Logos has really changed and can do every thing BW and Acc. can do plus more.
...
concerning this particular perception, I still prefer the softwares you mentioned apart from Logos
though I am new in Logos, these other two softwares did focus from the start on the Bible study tool search. Logos was first on being a software providing books to work with. The focus have changed a bit after the years.
...
for simple searches, they may do the same work; but for complex searches, I still need to improve my knowledge on Logos to be convince that Logos do at least the same "job". May be it is because I am too new in Logos and I do not know how to do in Logos. I would however be glad to learn
P.S.: I am not sure Logos would appreciate the comparison here> I prefer to send some few samples via email
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nice to think about some discounts
Now will there some "special discount" for the workers in countries (some african, asian, ...), which cannot afford it? like it was done for EGW cd some years (6 or 8 yrs) ago?
well just wishing aloud!
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Martin Weber said:
We certainly will have SDA base packages, and I hope that we can have special academic bundles (at least--maybe even a SDA academic base package) for Andrews and the other universities and colleges.
I like these ideas... Is it possible to know what do you plan for the content of these packages?
Martin Weber said:Regarding EGW, we are currently re-tagging her writings. They will be up to speed with the latest indexing technology and will work wonderfully across all platforms, including Macs for those of us in that world. Those who have already purchased her writings will get a free upgrade.
what about the price for the new EGW? will it be the same price? cheaper? more expensive? any ideas?
Do you have any plans for the SDA Pionneers in that same sense?
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Edwin Sully PAYET said:
for simple searches, they may do the same work; but for complex searches, I still need to improve my knowledge on Logos to be convince that Logos do at least the same "job".
I am specifically talking about Hebrew or Greek simple or complex searches, not English ones
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Edwin Sully PAYET said:
I am specifically talking about Hebrew or Greek simple or complex searches, not English ones
Edwin, I do not have Bible Works, and have never used it. Can you give some examples of what you may be looking for in Hebrew and Greek searches? Just the final result.
Here is the link for clause searching http://www.logos.com/support/logos5/clause-search
Here is the video for syntax searching http://www.logos.com/support/logos5/syntax-search
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Here is a video for Hebrew searching. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JFAl_gaLzA
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:Edwin Sully PAYET said:
I am specifically talking about Hebrew or Greek simple or complex searches, not English ones
Edwin, I do not have Bible Works, and have never used it. Can you give some examples of what you may be looking for in Hebrew and Greek searches? Just the final result.
Here is the link for clause searching http://www.logos.com/support/logos5/clause-search
Here is the video for syntax searching http://www.logos.com/support/logos5/syntax-search
I appreciate Lynden your link, but they do not always help when you come to languages search for Hebrew and Greek
As I previously said, I am not sure Logos would be happy that I do the difference here but since you insist let me mention a few examples.
One of the main advantages is speed: So far, If i want to do simple research (search the 'lemma' search for "adonai" in Hebrew), on the same computer, it is faster on BW (less than a second) than in logos (minimum 5 seconds) That may depend may be on the computer you are using, I agree. But the result may be sometimes different: logos tells me for searching the BHS/WIVU: 439 found in 424 verses; the Lexham Hebrew Bible: 773 results in 710 verses
in BW: 711 verses, 17 forms, 775 hits (0.31 secs)
you can search a phrase: "adonai yhwh" in Hebrew same results for BHS/WIVU; Lexham Hebrew Bible in LOGOS and in BW (except the speed): 284 verses, 293 hits
but in BW, you can also do a search for the phrase " lemma 'adonai' followed by lemma 'yhwh'": 299 verses, 22 forms, 309 hits
you can also do a search for the phrase " lemma 'adonai' followed by lemma 'yhwh'" but with a word between word between the two: 308 verses, 22 forms, 320 hits. You can do the same search with two/three/four... words in between. I am not sure, (and I am not sure how either), but I believe Logos can do that too
But in BW, you can search"adonai" "yhwh" in the same verse, whatever order they come, whatever the number of words are between them: 390 verses, 22 forms, 497 hits
even you can search"adonai" "yhwh" in the same verse, whatever order they come, whatever the number of words are between them, but without any occurrences of "Elohim" in the verse: 349 verses, 15 forms, 434 hits
For the verbs, I can ask more complex search such as "a verb 1 (in piel or in hithpael)" together in the same verse with "verb2 or verb3"
Recently, I was searching on how to search for Hebrew accents on Logos: It seems that it was not "designed" for it (I Have to admit it bugs also for at least one particular accent that I know in BW. that is why I wanted to search in Logos. But the rest seems fine!)
In Acc...ce, you could search for a particular word (Noun, article, verb, or prepositions) that starts any verse in the OT
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Edwin, my knowledge of Alaskan politics, surpasses my knowledge of Hebrew. Give me some suggestions in Greek. Never did Hebrew.
Here is what I achieved using the ESV and right clicking on the word Lord, choosing the lemma.
May not be an exactly fair comparison, since the previous results were already loaded in the memory. Would need a cold boot to get a fair comparison.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Match all word forms was used in both searches.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Edwin Sully PAYET said:
As I previously said, I am not sure Logos would be happy that I do the difference here but since you insist let me mention a few examples.
Maybe if you took out the reference to that other program and asked in General how to do each of the searches that you want to do you might get some help from the Logos Forum Greek Geeks.
Your current post is hidden from normal view here in a SDA portion so don't worry.
EDIT: Oh I see that you have already started doing that - It is still early - if no answers post to that thread with just the word 'Bump' but not too often
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/75239/526290.aspx#526290
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well Lynden,
I am more in Hebrew for now than Greek...
that's one good thing with Logos, you can start your Hebrew search with the English word you are looking for
as I already mentioned the result are not the same between the first one (6828 hits in 5791 verses) and the second one (6007 hits in 5195 verses)
I am glad for you for the speed of your computer. I never got that speed for an Hebrew search. But as I said it depends on each computer (how old, How it is loaded, what program you use in the same time with logos or not, ...)
actually the simple search are "simple" to do. and so far, I can manage well with them (except for the difference of hits/occurrences). It is more the complex searches that make me more frustrated at time when you need a specific thing as I mentioned earlier. as I already mentioned, for complex searches, I still need to improve my knowledge on Logos to be convince that Logos do at least the same "job". May be it is because I am too new in Logos and I do not know how to do in Logos. I would however be glad to learn
twice I requested help (one only today), so I will see with time. It could have been nice if there is a set/list of complex command lines for different possible searches for English as much as Hebrew or Greek. That could be a good help
But I may need to create a special request on the general forum for that
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David Ames said:
Maybe if you took out the reference to that other program and asked in General how to do each of the searches that you want to do you might get some help from the Logos Forum Greek Geeks.
Your current post is hidden from normal view here in a SDA portion so don't worry.
Well my plan was not to post it there. It was just to answer another post.
And yes, since i am a bit new, when I am really frustrated, I ask on the forum
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Here are my specs. Not a speed demon by any chance.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Has the help function been of assistance?
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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There are no regional discounts in Logos, but there are great opportunities for anyone to get resources at low prices through sales and community pricing.
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If you have a machine with sufficient capacity and RAM, speed should not be an issue in Logos 5. It was in previous versions of Logos, but not in L5.
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It is a joy to work with you all in getting SDA products into Logos. I'm happy to say that the all Logos base packages (including the upcoming SDA base packages) have dynamic pricing, which means that if you already own resources therein your cost will be reduced accordingly.
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HI you are right: If I open just Logos it has the results in less than a second.
But If I open many things (logos, word, some other softwares, firefox using internet, playing music, ...) in the same time with Logos, then it takes some more seconds to do the search
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When I increased my RAM from 4 to 8, my searching really sped up.
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Hi Martin
I like what you are doing in Logos for us to have Adventist resources.
My concern is that, even cheap as sometimes it can be, the place where I will go back and work (and so many other countries with small salaries) very very few will be able to afford Logos if it is not subsidized.
If you want to know more and/or to talk in private, I would be glad to send you an email
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well I cannot afford it for now!Martin Weber said:When I increased my RAM from 4 to 8, my searching really sped up.
But that's fine. I have learn to manage with it
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Hi all, I'm brand new to Logos and have been doing a LOT of reading and researching about what to purchase and how the purchasing process works, but I still have some confusions and questions I cannot find answers to.
1 ) I want to get the SDA Expanded Bible Commentary, but after reading this thread I'm concerned an even better, newer package will become available soon. Is this a real concern? Or will I get a free update to my bundle should an improved version come out later?2 ) Also, a general question, am I correct in understanding that if I wish to buy a book bundle that contains some books I already own, that the bundle price will automatically decrease to account for the books I already own? That would be pretty cool.
3 ) I've also seen discussion about the SDA Expanded Bible Commentary not yet being tagged and or having scripture reference links. Has this been updated yet? Or is it still in the works?
4 ) In a nutshell, should I just buy the SDA Expanded Bible Commentary now? Or wait for an improved version or something altogether better?So many questions, I know. But thanks all! I'm very excited about using this great tool!
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Wonder if I should hold off on purchasing sda resources with the sda package coming out?
Dynamic pricing reduces cost but it never drops the full amount, which is understandable of course since they are already lowering cost.
But when one has purchase most of the sda products, one might actually be paying more in the long run
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Welcome to the forums CJ.
There is no guarantee that the Bible Commentary will be included in a base package.
If you buy the Expanded version, and it is updated with links, the new version will be free.
We do not know what will be in the base packages, and there will probably be more than one base package. You do get discounts for what you own, but not the full price, as the cost of the base packages is not the full cost of all the books combined.
I would encourage you to join this group, as you may find some information here that may be of assistance. https://faithlife.com/seventh-day-adventist/activity
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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