FSB should be called the FaithLESS Study Bible
Comments
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tom said:
Just to let you know, I believe that the FSB's article about the flood is unbiased.John D. Barry said:Since it has been suggested that Faithlife Study Bible's article about the flood is not as unbiased as it could be, we will take a look at it again
Titus 3 can use some work...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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The elephant in the room (at least from my understanding) that might be at the core of this discussion is the general disconnect that many church denominations have with current Biblical scholarship. In my experience as a Southern Baptist, you have your core group of scholars that are generally read and taught from, and then there's everyone else outside that group who aren't "approved of". The scholarship coming from the core group is generally from the "If the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it" mindset, and any serious deviation from this is frowned upon.
Many within these denominations therefore don't have the opportunity to explore other viewpoints or be made aware of new developments within Biblical scholarship that help to place the Bible within its ancient context. They're sand-boxed from the "real world", so when real world scholarship makes it into their sandbox, its immediately looked at with extreme suspicion merely because it doesn't tow the party line. The possibility that the party line needs correction and refinement is hardly ever considered. (I'm not naive enough to believe either that modern scholarship has a monopoly on the final truth of the matter. But the advantage of modern scholarship is that it seeks to explore and explain as much current evidence as possible, and not just that which reinforces our long held beliefs. Old conclusions must always be reassessed once new information comes to light.)
Hence the reaction to the Flood article in the Faithlife Study Bible. That article reflects what current scholarship is reflecting, namely that there isn't any convincing archeological evidence for a worldwide flood, and that the story of the flood as presented to the ancient Israelites would have been understood very differently than what modern American Christians understand it to be saying. That article is not trying to destroy one's faith, but actually trying to reinforce it by getting closer to the original meaning of the flood in the context of the world of the Bible.
Ed, I know it may be jarring at first, but I would encourage you to give thoughtful consideration to the articles you had the opportunity to read. They bring a lot of helpful information to the table that has, until recently, not really been available outside of graduate schools and academic journals.
It doesn't mean its wrong. It only means the tradition you are a part of probably hasn't been exposed to it yet.Give it a try. I speak from experience when I say it will strengthen your faith, not destroy it.
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Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Acts 26:24b "thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad." [:D]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Acts 26:24b "thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad."
I haven't looked it up recently, but I seem to recall that this was a comment made to Paul. As such, it would seem an odd thing to say to someone since we obviously aren't to take Paul as having been mad.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I'm jumping into this discussion a bit late but upon reflection I think that Ed does have a point although the way he put it is on the line of crossing forum guidelines.
Since Logos is reaching out more and more to the average person I think that resources that Logos is involved in producing perhaps could consider clearly state somewhere in them the theological persuasion or viewpoint that they are trying to represent. Maybe Faithlife does this and I have not read it but Ed was surprised by what he discovered and I don't think he would be alone in this.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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George Somsel said:
I haven't looked it up recently, but I seem to recall that this was a comment made to Paul.
That is why the smiley face, George. But my real point was faith (as in FaithLife) is not based on what is seen (like geological strata) but on things not seen (like having to believe God without the scientific method.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bruce Dunning said:
clearly state somewhere in them the theological persuasion or viewpoint that they are trying to represent
I believe there are other references to this statement in the context of other products. I seem to remember Bob using the phrase "broadly evangelical" ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Doug Mangum said:
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Greg Masone said:
...
Ed, I know it may be jarring at first, but I would encourage you to give thoughtful consideration to the articles you had the opportunity to read. They bring a lot of helpful information to the table that has, until recently, not really been available outside of graduate schools and academic journals.
It doesn't mean its wrong. It only means the tradition you are a part of probably hasn't been exposed to it yet.Give it a try. I speak from experience when I say it will strengthen your faith, not destroy it.
I appreciate the gentleness of your suggestion, even if it does imply that I'm one of the closed-minded "core group" that frowns upon everything outside. However, the point of my original post (and my apologies for its directness) was specific to the FSB's apparent bias, not to outside views. (And let me reiterate that I am pleased and impressed by the response from John Barry of Logos.)
In reality, I am a proponent of studying the FACTS of all sides of an issue, and testing them where possible (1 John 4:1). And I accept the fact that many good Christian people can disagree on non-essentials ... no problem. I am, however, a bit disappointed how many people focused upon forum protocol instead of the point. But oh well.
[:)]
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Ed, sorry your outing here has not proved so pleasant. Perhaps if your initial post had been worded more level-headedly...
The Logos forum is populated with Christians of all stripes, and also non-Christians.
There are those who hold to their theological convictions on these forums, and by virtue of their long standing and rapier wit, are able to push the boundaries of logic and civility, and insist on putting their stamp on things.
But if you hear the voice of Logos, and she barks and whimpers, well it isn't equivalent to the voice of the community, much less Logos. You got the voice of Logos from John Barry, an official employee. His response was measured and generally positive.
I, for one, would like to see less of ICC'ish slant in Logos' "broad evangelical" material. I share your concern about the theological and practical effects of some of that material. And, except for your initial overstatement, I quite agree with you, and feel that your feedback was within forum guidelines. One way to proceed next time: if you see something about FSB you feel is slanted one way, maybe it is good to make a specific, positive suggestion about what you would like included, either by email or in the relevant forum. Alternatively, you may want to avoid the resource altogether, and similarly advise those under your charge.
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Ed said:
I am, however, a bit disappointed how many people focused upon forum protocol instead of the point. But oh well.
Ed, assuming from your post count that you are comparatively new to the forums, your disappointment is understandable. Logos tried hard to make the forums work without guidelines, but a few people went so far over the line of acceptable behavior, that Logos implemented guidelines and began deleting objectionable posts or threads. You will note that during the same time period as this thread, another thread was deleted by Logos. It was in the context of trouble, that I chose to warn you of the potential for trouble that you were creating - not intentionally. If it had been intentional, I would have assumed that reminding you of the guidelines would be futile. I was personally pleased that those who persisted in addressing your point both represented multiple opinions and did not cause the thread to devolve.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well, I'm always impressed that the pastoral writer completely forgot about ancient language expertise in the bishop/elder job description. Indeed a close reading seems to be suspicious of detail-oriented candidates, instead emphasizing teaching and leading talents. No Logos requirement (software that is).
Let's take a close look at the writer's guidance:
'and foolish questions [Logos pricing], and genealogies [George's age], and contentions [questioning Macs] , and strivings about law [forum rules], stand away from -- for they are unprofitable [don't highlight good sales] and vain [like none of us]'
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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While the original post may have started with some hyperbole, I appreciate Ed's humility as he has interacted with Forum users and the way he has commended the feedback he received from Logos employee(s). I thank you for drawing my attention to this matter. I often consult with the FSB notes and have developed the skill of filtering viewpoints that are consistent with or contrary to my own conclusions. While I personally am a little to the right of the author of the note in FSB in this text [Douglas Magnum], I can appreciate his attempt to identify what is claimed in Scripture, what it attested in extra-biblical records, and what the archeological finds (to date) seem to support. I have recommended the FSB to some people who view a 6-day creation or global flood as a Litmus test of truth and I would hate for them to disregard the whole work as "liberal lies" just because they disagree with notes on Genesis 6-8.Now I know that when I endorse the FSB I should qualify my endorsement with "while I don't agree with all that the notes claim, the format of a hyperlinked electronic study bible with layers of information is a valuable addition to your faith toolbox."
Ed, thank you for raising an issue that has clarified the way I will continue to recommend the FSB to others.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David Thomas said:
I have recommended the FSB to some people who view a 6-day creation or global flood as a Litmus test of truth and I would hate for them to disregard the whole work as "liberal lies" just because they disagree with notes on Genesis 6-8.Now I know that when I endorse the FSB I should qualify my endorsement with "while I don't agree with all that the notes claim, the format of a hyperlinked electronic study bible with layers of information is a valuable addition to your faith toolbox."
I like your recommendation David. I usually tell others that you will not agree with everything but it is a good resource.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
I usually tell others that you will not agree with everything
Reminds me of a man who worked for me in the Navy whose father was a Seventh Day Baptist Pastor. He would often say, "My dad says that if two people agree on everything, at least one of them is not thinking." I always appreciated that pearl of wisdom. [8-|]
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Jack Caviness said:
He would often say, "My dad says that if two people agree on everything, at least one of them is not thinking.
Sound words.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Denise said:
Let's take a close look at the writer's guidance:
'and foolish questions [Logos pricing], and genealogies [George's age], and contentions [questioning Macs] , and strivings about law [forum rules], stand away from -- for they are unprofitable [don't highlight good sales] and vain [like none of us]'
[:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[Y]Jack Caviness said:if two people agree on everything, at least one of them is not thinking.
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Jack Caviness said:Lynden Williams said:
I usually tell others that you will not agree with everything
Reminds me of a man who worked for me in the Navy whose father was a Seventh Day Baptist Pastor. He would often say, "My dad says that if two people agree on everything, at least one of them is not thinking." I always appreciated that pearl of wisdom. [8-|]
I absolutely agree with you 100%. [;)] [:D] [:P]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Jack Caviness said:Lynden Williams said:
I usually tell others that you will not agree with everything
Reminds me of a man who worked for me in the Navy whose father was a Seventh Day Baptist Pastor. He would often say, "My dad says that if two people agree on everything, at least one of them is not thinking." I always appreciated that pearl of wisdom.
I absolutely agree with you 100%.
Of course, if he agrees with me, then he is obviously thinking straight [H]
On the other hand, I sometimes even disagree with myself [:D]
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Evidence that FSB is not FaithLESS...
3:16 God loved the world This verse presents a concise summary of the gospel message, tying the events of Jesus’ death to God’s love for the world He created. The statement is remarkable in its depiction of divine care for the entire world—not just His people Israel.
one and only Son See note on 1:14. The Greek term is monogenēs, meaning “one of a kind.”
believes in him See note on 1:7; see also note on 1:12.
3:17 his Son John prefers to refer to Jesus as the “Son” and God as the “Father” (compare vv. 35; 6:40; 17:1). Jesus’ reflection and representation of the Father is complete (14:9–10). As one sent by God, Jesus fully represented Him on earth (compare 13:16, 20).
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
In traditional Christian morality, it is a sin to engage in rash judgment--to assume bad motives of the party you are criticizing. The hyperbole of the title of this post is dangerously close to rash judgment. Stating a criticism in a gentle, fair, and balanced way is a better approach for a Christian. We will be accountable for all our words.
And yes, when I point a finger, three point back. This is a lesson I am teaching myself first.
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