Relationships of various Christian groups
Comments
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Onell McCarthy said:
Why would Christianity be considered a heresy like islam.
?? I'm not sure what you mean here.
Onell McCarthy said:When did the islamic religion started and by whom?
In the seventh century A.D. by Muhammad. I tried to explain why it should be considered a Christian heresy earlier in the thread.
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Mark Barnes said:
Then that is an impossible task. The mutually-contradictory views held by these groups ensures that. Even more problematic is the inherent assumption that this a linear process. Protestants, for example, view themselves as going back to an earlier theological position. In no way do they view themselves as a 'child' of Catholicism. A linear graph like this leaves no room for rediscovery of lost doctrines, nor the shedding of earlier ones now viewed heretical.
I agree. (And I agree that Jew/Gentile is (now) a false dichotomy.)
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James W Bennett said:
Muslims view themselves as a separate or parallel tract that is a more correct revelation of God's true will.
Not exactly. Their belief is sort of like that of Protestants to Catholicism. Protestants, as Mark said, believe they have recovered what Catholicism lost. In the same way, Muslims believe they have recovered what "Christians" (and Jews) lost. This is parallel to what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
For example, Surrah 2.75 reads, "Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?—Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it." and 10.37 "This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book—wherein there is no doubt—from the Lord of the worlds (Ali; cf. 12.111; 10.94; 35.31, 32; 62.5;)
So if we are going to have Islam branching back then we need to add the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christian heresies back there too.
This is why I think Islam needs to be viewed as a Christian heresy. Any argument that Islam is something other than that will end up extending to other groups that we (rightfully) consider Christian heresies. On the other hand, the same facts that lead us to consider something like Jehovah's Witness as a Christian heresy can be found in the origins of Islam.
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James W Bennett said:
[
This effort may get real complex, or may simplify greatly, within the next several years
The Catholic Church is working through differences with the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church is working through differences with the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Assyrian Church. The Anglicans and Lutherans are working out their differences. Now if the Oriental Orthodox Church would work with the Assyrian Church... It might become one big happy family in the next century or so. Except that is for the sects that fall under the modern term of Protestant, the Restorationist Church(es) (which is from where I hail), and the Messianic Jewish movement.
Even though there are ongoing discussions and even some agreements between some of the various denominations (which I am pleased to see), which lead to co-operation and mutual acknowledgment of ministry and orders, I believe that there are formidable barriers to any amalgamation or merging. At best, I see your time frame as optimistic. [:O][:)]
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Mark Barnes said:James W Bennett said:
Martha is not trying to capture the historical or theological divisions of these religions or worldviews. She is trying to reflect how each of these sects view themselves.
Then that is an impossible task. The mutually-contradictory views held by these groups ensures that. Even more problematic is the inherent assumption that this a linear process. Protestants, for example, view themselves as going back to an earlier theological position. In no way do they view themselves as a 'child' of Catholicism. A linear graph like this leaves no room for rediscovery of lost doctrines, nor the shedding of earlier ones now viewed heretical.
I agree. If you would take only into account the self-description, you would have to change the chart even more. Many believe they were initiated directly by God himself. Not only Islam [:)]
Bohuslav
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John Bowling said:James W Bennett said:
Muslims view themselves as a separate or parallel tract that is a more correct revelation of God's true will.
Not exactly. Their belief is sort of like that of Protestants to Catholicism. Protestants, as Mark said, believe they have recovered what Catholicism lost. In the same way, Muslims believe they have recovered what "Christians" (and Jews) lost. This is parallel to what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
For example, Surrah 2.75 reads, "Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?—Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it." and 10.37 "This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book—wherein there is no doubt—from the Lord of the worlds (Ali; cf. 12.111; 10.94; 35.31, 32; 62.5;)
So if we are going to have Islam branching back then we need to add the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christian heresies back there too.
This is why I think Islam needs to be viewed as a Christian heresy. Any argument that Islam is something other than that will end up extending to other groups that we (rightfully) consider Christian heresies. On the other hand, the same facts that lead us to consider something like Jehovah's Witness as a Christian heresy can be found in the origins of Islam.
It is exactly true. Islam is just a bigger and older sect similar to Mormonism and other semi-christian sects. It is (as I and others stated already) a reaction to Judaism and Christianity, combined with the old pagan Arab religion of the moon god.
One more note: Some experts on Judaism would say that both Rabbinic Judaism and Messianic Judaism followed by Christianity are 2 streams which come out of the 2 Temple Judaism. Some would say Rabbinic Judaism is younger and is in a measure a reaction to the Messianic Judaism.
Saying that Christianity has nothing to do with the Judaism is wrong IMHO. All about the beginning of the Church is Jewish. The Church started as Jewish (not from the Rabbinic Judaism but 2 Temple Judaism in all it's variations) It started to include Gentiles. We accepted Jewish Messiah, not that Jews would accept a non-Jewish Saviour. The split between the Messianic Judaism and Messianic Gentiles (Christianity) happened gradually in the first few centuries with the tragic growth of the antisemitism.
Sorry if I messed up a conventional way of looking at the matter. I might be wrong.
Bohuslav
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Mark Barnes said:
I'm really not sure there's any point inventing a religion called Abrahamic religion
"Abrahamic religions" is simply standard terminology for the 3 (Western) monotheistic religions. To delete it would remove the Ismael/Israel distinction that is part of the self-identification. If I decided to not include that piece of information, Abrahamic religions could be deleted with no redrawing of the diagram.
Mark Barnes said:Why the separation between Messianic Judaism and Gentile Christianity?
I was unhappy with my terminology here and hoped someone could improve it. In the final version I changed "Gentile" to "non-jewish". The distinction I was trying to make was between the Christians whose practices and self-identification remain within Judaism vs. the Christianity that no longer considers itself to have direct (rather than historical) ties to Judaism.
Mark Barnes said:Lutherans are protestant.
I have labeled them as Protestant in the historic sense of the term. However, Lutherans do not self-identify as Protestants and are theologically quite distinct from much of Protestantism. A Lutheran who has participated in this thread has stated this position eloquately.
Mark Barnes said:Anglicans are protestant.
While the Anglicans in the US are usually associated with the Episcopal Protestant Church, the Anglicans self-identify as the middle way between Catholic and Protestant. This self-identification is what I am attempting to capture.
Mark Barnes said:Within Protestantism you should probably have: Lutheran, Episcopalian, Reformed, Other.
I've already explained the placement of Lutherans and Anglicans. Unfortumately, I don't understand the divisions within Protestantism very well. In fact, I can't even understand why there are so many divisions. So for Protestants, I've only included subdivisions that were suggested in this thread that I thought I undestood the group being referenced.
Some of the broad points I wanted the diagram to show:
- there is an Eastern church that as Westerners we tend to completely ignore - or at most note the Eastern Orthodox
- the Catholic Church is not "Roman" but also has an Eastern component
- Islam recognizes (positively) both Judaism and Christianity
- in some aspects, Lutherans and Anglican are closer to Catholic than Protestant
- that the church does not divide easily into Catholic and Protestant - which is a Western church only distinction
- that Samaritans are not outside the scope
- that not all of Judaism is rabbinic
- that the three major groupings - Judaism, Christianity, Islam - had a mystic thread: Kabbala, Gnosticism, Sufism (a representative not comprehensive list)
A major thing I learned which needs to be fleshed out - I didn't know the distinction between the reformation and the radical reformation.
A major disappointment was that while the Oriental church members that I have known over the years would consider my placement of them as historic rather than self-identification, I don't know the area well enough to do it justice.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Onell McCarthy said:
Why would Christianity be considered a heresy like islam. When did the islamic religion started and by whom?
This is very much an us vs. them question:
When did Judaism start and by whom?
- Moses, a man [non-followers of Abrahamic religions excluding Baha'i]
- Moses, a religious educator [Baha'i]
- God [followers of Abrahamic religions]
When did Christianity start and by whom?
- Jesus, a man [non-Christians excluding Islam and Baha'i]
- Jesus, a prophet [Islam]
- Jesus, a religious educator [Baha'i]
- Jesus, man-God [Christianity]
When did Islam start and by whom?
- Mohammed, a man [non-Islamics excluding Baha'i]
- Mohammed, a religious educator [Baha'i]
- God [followers of Islam]
What I find fascinating is how non-Christians read and use Christian Scripture - not a topic Logos is strong in ... and probably not a topic with much market given how little I've seen. Yes, I know this chart is justly faulted in it detail ... but this is an "off the top of my head" cut not a dissertation.[:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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James W Bennett said:
The Assyrian Church is what the sect that was traditionally known as the Nestorians calls themselves. So this is really the same group.
Let me double check on this - I've had conflicting information on whether the Indian St. Thomas Christians connect to the Syrian or Assyrian Church - they were the basis of my distinction.
James W Bennett said:This effort may get real complex, or may simplify greatly, within the next several years
I truly hope for and pray for the simplifications. While there are some thorny issues, so much is culture and language rather than substantive theological differences.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
Even more problematic is the inherent assumption that this a linear process
I'm not trying to capture a process, I am trying to capture current state.
Mark Barnes said:Protestants, for example, view themselves as going back to an earlier theological position. In no way do they view themselves as a 'child' of Catholicism.
This is true, but as we have seen in the forums, many see themselves as a correction to the Catholic Church - only a subset sees themselves otherwise.
Mark Barnes said:leaves no room for rediscovery of lost doctrines, nor the shedding of earlier ones now viewed heretical.
That is the position I was trying to show in the "Restorationist" category.
Mark Barnes said:Then that is an impossible task.
In detail, I agree completely But in a broad overview, I think I can get close enough to be useful. See my prior post of specific aspects I wanted to show because I thought they were not well known.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Joan Korte said:
I can't find non-denominational, charismatic (not Pentecostal) house church in the chart. That is the group I am part of.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about such groups as to know how to place them. As soon as one moves outside the liturgical churches, my knowledge is very weak and disorganized or narrowed down to the single congregation of my childhood.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What is beautiful is that we don't want to be on a chart or categorized because the heart of the matter is fellowship with Jesus and others and departing from lifeless institutionalism.
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Joan Korte said:
What is beautiful is that we don't want to be on a chart or categorized because the heart of the matter is fellowship with Jesus and others and departing from lifeless institutionalism.
At the risk of drawing incendiary fire, I'll say amen to that.
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Alex,
I don't want to start a flame war either, if I read you right. But, I'd recommend to anyone Thomas Dubay's book called "The Fire Within". [A]
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Joan Korte said:
I'd recommend to anyone Thomas Dubay's book called "The Fire Within".
What's that about Joan?
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Alex,
It's about Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross-the contemplative prayer life. One of my interests, along with Song of Songs. Now, I have gone and revealed my true identity in this thread.[H] God Bless!
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Have you seen Christianity's Family Tree: What Other Christians Believe and Why by Adam Hamilton? Maybe something to request in Logos format. It has nice family tree charts throughout, showing where different denominations split off from the root.
I seem to recall Bob Pritchett once showed me a big wall cart with a family tree of Christian denominations and sects. I think that was back when they were dreaming up the design for the Biblical People family trees, and they were intending to do something with it in Logos someday. It would be interesting to have, even though such a thing could never be objectively accurate, since each group understands its own history differently from the way others looking at them from the outside do.
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