Query to find words that occur in NT but not in LXX

Russ,

I'm handicapped by not having access to L3/L4 at this time. For starters you won't be able to accomplish this in L4! Maybe in L3 because you can construct Word Lists (of lexemes). But where do you get your list of theologically significant words that occur in the NT? Probably from TDNT. And then you need a lexicon of Septuagint words.

Construct a word list from the LXX Lexicon (this isn't as simple as it sounds)
Construct a Graphical Query - a single term using the Word List & searching on the head terms in TDNT (Field = lemma from memory, but check About this resource for its Fields).
Theoretically, the words in TDNT that are not search hits is what you want!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64496#Comment_64496

could you not extract the LXX word list thru a Logos Greek Morph search? morph]..

repeat [ ] section for each criteria ie V,B,C,D,I,J,N,P,R,T,X and maybe others, it will take an eon (3 mins on mine) to search >530,000 hits, then use analysis (a long time maybe 30+ mins) and then export to spreadsheet

do same with NT, and then use excel or access to compare/analyse further

I would use small groups maybe 3 filters per search based on my trials..

@V OR @N returns >231,000 hits alone, see the yellow 10000 warning, I dont know it that affects the export.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64538#Comment_64538

it only exports the first 10000 as well, rather than the full dataset, hopefully Logos will change this in the future

EDIT

And again the analysis view pulls out more info than requested, its really starting to annoy me.

Why when you have specified "Logos Greek Morphology" is it extracting the Hebrew AF lemmas??

if you're gonna cap the analysis, at least let it pull out ONLY what WE specify...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64538#Comment_64538

That's why I discounted L4 because we need to work with Word Lists (especially NT words of theological significance) and not search hits with multiple occurrences of each word. If the Graphical Query fails then we can compare two exported Word Lists in Excel or Access.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64556#Comment_64556

Thanks guys.

You've given me some angles to work. I was concerned that this might require Word Lists.

I'll work on some of these ideas and let you know what I find.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64650#Comment_64650

Alas I've run into a show stopping problem with working in L3.

My search windows are exhibiting a strange behavior. All of my Results screens are restricting the scrollable area to a small section at the very top.

I'm afraid troubleshooting my L3 install is more than I have time to address with my defensible draft due at the end of January.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I plan on revisiting the issue at a more opportune time.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64668#Comment_64668

One more try with L4 on this. Here is where I am now.

I've limited a search in GNT to John for all nouns and got the following results:

And a query for all nouns in the LXX with the following results:

I thought I might be able to use Basic or Bible search to compare the hits from NA27 with the hits from LXX but both queries I built above resolve to the same thing:
([field bible] <lbs-morph+el ~ N????>)

Is there a way to modify this string to limit the results to a particular resource? I am envisioning something like this:

This is obviously the wrong syntax but is something like this possible?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64708#Comment_64708

I see you are in simple rather than morph, might that be why?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64708#Comment_64708

Is there a way to modify this string to limit the results to a particular resource? I am envisioning something like this:

Russ,

yes....just make a collection with nothing but the LXX and NA27 in it...do a search and rank "by book"

I did that and found that it was easier to to compare the results using two separate searches....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64711#Comment_64711

I see you are in simple rather than morph, might that be why?

Dominic,

Perhaps something similar could be done in Morph search along these lines?

I'm not sure that what I want to achieve with "bible:lxx" is even possible but hopefully you can see what I am trying to do.

The crux of my question boils down to two issues:

1. Are there query operators that allow specifying the passage limits, source text, and morphology apart from the drop down menus of the search tool?

2. If so, is there an operator that allows comparing the results between sources? I tried NOTEQUALS above but am not sure that is what it would do.

If these things are not currently possible, I wonder if the implementation of Word Lists in a future update will allow me to achieve the results I am seeking.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64713#Comment_64713

Russ,

yes....just make a collection with nothing but the LXX and NA27 in it...do a search and rank "by book"

I did that and found that it was easier to to compare the results using two separate searches....

Robert,

Thanks for the suggestion.

What I am after is one result list that contains the verses in the NT (or just the Gospel of John really) that contain words that are not used in the LXX.

Do you see a way of finding those words by comparing the results of the two separate searches?

I think this would effectively be the same as opening up the New Testament and the LXX in two different panes.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64731#Comment_64731

1. Are there query operators that allow specifying the passage limits, source text, and morphology apart from the drop down menus of the search tool?

2. If so, is there an operator that allows comparing the results between sources? I tried NOTEQUALS above but am not sure that is what it would do.

If these things are not currently possible, I wonder if the implementation of Word Lists in a future update will allow me to achieve the results I am seeking.

1. No (you can initiate a search from Command bar but I don't think this is what you are after)

2. No search compares two resources - it always looks for results in one resource.

3. I know that big Word Lists in L3 are possible but time-consuming. I think that an L4 implementation should be faster & more convenient (but not in time for you!).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64893#Comment_64893

Thanks, Dave, for your help on this. Sorry for being so dense. I am just not very familiar with how search works in Logos.

2. No search compares two resources - it always looks for results in one resource.

I really hope there is future development on this. It would be great to be able to compare hits from discreet searches.

3. I know that big Word Lists in L3 are possible but time-consuming. I think that an L4 implementation should be faster & more convenient (but not in time for you!).

I figured out my problem with my installation of L3. It was a fresh install that just needed updating to 3.0g.

So I am back in the game on trying to use it.

If I create a word list of unique lemmas from the Greek text of John and a similar word list from the LXX, I think I can then create a new word list that includes the words from John but excludes the words from the LXX. Is that right?

So far I have created a Word List from the Greek text of the Gospel of John.

My first problem with that is that I can't seem to find a way to restrict the word list to unique lemmas instead of unique lexical forms. Is that possible?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64914#Comment_64914

If I create a word list of unique lemmas from the Greek text of John and a similar word list from the LXX, I think I can then create a new word list that includes the words from John but excludes the words from the LXX. Is that right?

So far I have created a Word List from the Greek text of the Gospel of John.

My first problem with that is that I can't seem to find a way to restrict the word list to unique lemmas instead of unique lexical forms. Is that possible?

I just got my laptop back again (power supply went AWOL) and it is harder than I thought.

Vocabulary List get the lemmas from Bibles but Word Lists get the surface text. So you have to create a Vocab List, select all, copy and paste into a Word List. The sort order means you can easily eliminate the numbers and English glosses. I did this for some text from the LXX and duplicate words are eliminated. then I constructed a Graphical Query on the TDNT using Field = Lemma and the results show that is a possible route if one can get all the words from LXX!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65046#Comment_65046

We need a more intelligent Word List in L4, one that can take words from any source (not just bibles) and specify whether lemmas or surface text are required from a bible. We should also be able to use a word list in a Search.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64914#Comment_64914

2. No search compares two resources - it always looks for results in one resource.

I really hope there is future development on this. It would be great to be able to compare hits from discreet searches.

I use Verse Lists in L3 to compare two (bible) searches. If we can populate Word Lists the way I suggested (eg. directly from two lexicons) then we should request that Logos allow us to compare them. Putting words from search results into a Word List might also be possible.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/64668#Comment_64668

My search windows are exhibiting a strange behavior. All of my Results screens are restricting the scrollable area to a small section at the very top.

Wasn't that a problem with 3.0e that was fixed in 3.0f? Anyway, we're on 3.0g now, so it's worth checking you have the latest version.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65094#Comment_65094

Wasn't that a problem with 3.0e that was fixed in 3.0f? Anyway, we're on 3.0g now, so it's worth checking you have the latest version.

Thanks, Mark. That was the problem. I hadn't used L3 in quite awhile. This was a recent clean install on a virtual machine from a DVD. I forgot to do the appropriate updates.

Dave,

Thanks for the tips. I am going to work on them later today.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65190#Comment_65190

Russ, I think I have a potential start for you.

I ran @N ANDNOT <LN~93> in the Gospel of John with Analysis. I figured names wouldn't be useful for your dissertation. Then I exported to Excel and trimmed the file just to lemmas. I used Excel to eliminate duplicate values/lemmas and have a list of nouns in John minus the names.Here is an excel file of 235 nouns. I figure you could hand trim it to what you would consider to be theologically significant.

I'm working on a way to figure out how to get a lemma list from the LXX.

0410.Nonname Nouns in John.xlsx

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65063#Comment_65063

We need a more intelligent Word List in L4, one that can take words from any source (not just bibles) and specify whether lemmas or surface text are required from a bible. We should also be able to use a word list in a Search.

Amen and Amen!

Putting words from search results into a Word List might also be possible.

Now that is what I'm talking about!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65046#Comment_65046

if one can get all the words from LXX!

I was able to successfully build a vocabulary list for the Gospel of John, paste the results into a word list, and exclude the numbers and English glosses. That worked just as you recommended.

When I attempted to build the vocabulary list of "Gen-Bel and the Dragon" for the LXX, however, I got an error message: "Out of Memory at line: 3764".

But then creating a word list from the LXX based on "Gen-Bel and the Dragon" worked in just a manner of seconds!
Of course, its 3151 words include all variations based upon inflections - even where capitalization requires different breathing marks (ἀδελφή versus Ἀδελφή, for instance).

I thought I might breaking the vocabulary lists into smaller sections (Gen-Psalms, Proverbs-Bel and the Dragon) and then pasting those individual results into a single word list. However, my attempt to create a vocabulary list on "Gen-Psalm" but that produced a Memory error in Line 140.

I exited and restarted the software and attempted the "Gen-Psalm" vocabulary list again. This time there was no memory error but trying to select all the entries to copy is taking so long with Stop Running Script messages every 30 seconds that I have given up for now.

I might try breaking the vocab list selections into even smaller segments later.

I also noticed that the choice of Bible for the Word List is "Septuaginta: Morphologically Tagged Edition" while the Vocabulary List is "LXX | Septuaginta". I don't know if this is relevant or not.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65257#Comment_65257

Russ,

This is part 2. I went through and performed the @N ANDNOT <LN~93> on the LXX. Because the search produced too many results for the Analysis to display, I went ahead and performed the search on chunks of the LXX and then combined them into a single Excel file and eliminated all the duplicates. Here's the file

4265.Master list.xlsx">http://community.logos.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/76/4265.Master-list.xlsx:550:0]

If you want any more details or ask me any questions my email is beckerkr AT gmail

EDIT: HMMM, just reading your other posts I realized this file does not include results from the apocryphal sections.

EDIT 2: Here's the update with Apocryphal lit

4087.Master list with Apocrypha.xlsx">http://community.logos.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/76/4087.Master-list-with-Apocrypha.xlsx:550:0]

BTW, Rick, I did this as a matter of curiosity to see what it would take in Logos 4 and because it gave me a LXX noun list that I can use in the future [:)] , I won't feel bad if you can't or don't want to use these files.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65327#Comment_65327

there is no LouwNida in the LXX to my knowledge, filtering would need to be by Strongs Hebrew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65337#Comment_65337

there is no LouwNida in the LXX to my knowledge, filtering would need to be by Strongs Hebrew

I figured that out part way through the project, but I didn't bother to change it since it didn't make any difference to the search and stripping the Hebrew results in Excel was very easy.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65327#Comment_65327

Russ,

This is part 2. I went through and performed the @N ANDNOT <LN~93> on the LXX. Because the search produced too many results for the Analysis to display, I went ahead and performed the search on chunks of the LXX and then combined them into a single Excel file and eliminated all the duplicates. Here's the file

4265.Master list.xlsx">http://community.logos.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/76/4265.Master-list.xlsx:550:0]

If you want any more details or ask me any questions my email is beckerkr AT gmail

EDIT: HMMM, just reading your other posts I realized this file does not include results from the apocryphal sections.

Kevin,

Thanks for this. It actually provides the missing link for a workable solution. I will have to use both L3 and L4 but the combination will work.

I successfully created a word list from each of your Excel files and then created a third word list that includes the John word list but excludes the LXX word list. The resulting word list is what I am looking for.

Of course I will need to add verbs and some other things but I think I have a solid method between the two programs.

Anybody see any potential problems here?

This also encourages me that the future implementation of Word Lists in L4 will probably put us on another level of search capability.

Thanks, everyone for all the help.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65344#Comment_65344

Russ, be certain to check out the new file I just uploaded via edit in my previous post. The addition of the Apocryphal books added over a thousand unique entries to my noun list.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/65349#Comment_65349

Russ, be certain to check out the new file I just uploaded via edit in my previous post. The addition of the Apocryphal books added over a thousand unique entries to my noun list.

Thanks, Kevin. I really appreciate all of the help.