"It is finished"- Passover and Crucifixion

On Sunday, one of my congregation was talking to me about the idea that just as Jesus spoke the words "It is finished" on the cross, the High Priest would be uttering the same words over the Passover sacrifice.

The idea was that these words were a regular part of the Passover ritual.

I can find a number of references to this on the Internet but nothing in my Logos library.

Does anyone have any suggestions of Logos resources which speak about this?

Thanks, Graham

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David Paul

Hmmm, I wonder what is the supposed Biblical reference??

Graham Criddle

Hmmm, I wonder what is the supposed Biblical reference??

I can't find one for the priest's saying it.

So if there is any truth in this it must, I guess, be based on records of Passover practice in that period?

David Ames

On Sunday, one of my congregation was talking to me about the idea that just as Jesus spoke the words "It is finished" on the cross, the High Priest would be uttering the same words over the Passover sacrifice.

The idea was that these words were a regular part of the Passover ritual.

Have also heard that Psalm 22 might have been part of that service. [ritual]

Psa 22:1 *My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
* Cited Matt. 27:46. Mark 15:34.

[[Was Jesus in despair or just preforming the Passover Sacrifice as our True High Priest and as our one and only true sacrifice?]]

Paul-C

Anything about this in the Talmud / Mishnah?

David Paul

Anything about this in the Talmud / Mishnah?

You may as well ask if Stephen King has written about it.

If Josephus mentions it, I might give it some credence, but it sounds a lot like a wishful Christian wives' tale, of which there are many. Perhaps one of the biggest of all is the fiction that Yeishuu`a's statement "It is finished" means He is finished working. That is preposterous.

Paul-C

Anything about this in the Talmud / Mishnah?

That would be a no then (I did a very quick search)!

Kevin Maples

Does anyone have any suggestions of Logos resources which speak about this?

I did my ThM on allusions to Passover in John's crucifixion narrative. I've never heard of this before. Here is my thesis if you are interested in other allusions.

http://www.livingwiththecross.org/home/140004400/140004721//THE%20FUNCTION%20OF%20PASCHAL%20ALLUSIONS%20IN%20JOHNS%20CRUCIFIXION%20NARRATIVE_Kevin%20Maples_ThM%20Thesis.pdf

Graham Criddle

Does anyone have any suggestions of Logos resources which speak about this?
I did my ThM on allusions to Passover in John's crucifixion narrative. I've never heard of this before. Here is my thesis if you are interested in other allusions.
http://www.livingwiththecross.org/home/140004400/140004721//THE%20FUNCTION%20OF%20PASCHAL%20ALLUSIONS%20IN%20JOHNS%20CRUCIFIXION%20NARRATIVE_Kevin%20Maples_ThM%20Thesis.pdf

Thanks Kevin

Appreciated, Graham

Graham Criddle

Anything about this in the Talmud / Mishnah?

That would be a no then (I did a very quick search)!

Thanks for checking

Milkman

Kevin,

Would you mind if I downloaded your paper and saved it?

TCBlack

Does anyone have any suggestions of Logos resources which speak about this?
I did my ThM on allusions to Passover in John's crucifixion narrative. I've never heard of this before. Here is my thesis if you are interested in other allusions.
http://www.livingwiththecross.org/home/140004400/140004721//THE%20FUNCTION%20OF%20PASCHAL%20ALLUSIONS%20IN%20JOHNS%20CRUCIFIXION%20NARRATIVE_Kevin%20Maples_ThM%20Thesis.pdf

Beautiful. Thank you Kevin.

Kevin Maples

Kevin,

Would you mind if I downloaded your paper and saved it?

Everyone is welcome to use the paper anyway they see fit for any non-profit use. God bless.

BTW: If anyone was to make a PB out of it, I'd appreciate a copy of the file.

Jack Caviness

Not to hijack Graham's thread, but that brings back memories.In my late pre-teen years, my Dad had the residential route and his brother the commercial route for the local dairy. I was allowed to assist both for all the chocolate milk I could drink.

Kevin,

Would you mind if I downloaded your paper and saved it?

Hope Kevin won't mind because I had already saved the file.

See that Kevin posted one minute before me—Thanks for the permission.

Graham, don't believe I have heard that one before. It does not seem credible to me, but that is just a personal feeling.

Milkman

Jack [:)]

Yes it's a great job to have. I have both a residential and commercial. I too remember the milkman at our door. We had a milk door on the side of our house and he would leave the milk there. When we were kids we used to climb in and out of it. I still have one customer in the city that has that door. Our milk was delivered by a horse-drawn wagon. The horses name was Prince. Ah memories.

TCBlack

BTW: If anyone was to make a PB out of it, I'd appreciate a copy of the file.

Do you have it in a format other than PDF?

David Paul

In the past, I had conceived that just as Yeishuu`a was expiring on the cross, the blade was being drawn on the throat of the first Passover lamb of that day. However, that notion seems to be wishful thinking to me, if indeed the numbers of lambs and kids that Josephus speaks about (265,000) is even remotely credible. The logistics of such a number would almost certainly require that the sacrificing begin much earlier than is often suggested. Sometimes our quaint little notions, however cheery or helpful or "enlightening", just don't bear up under the weight of ontology.

David Paul

In the past, I had conceived that just as Yeishuu`a was expiring on the cross, the blade was being drawn on the throat of the first Passover lamb of that day. However, that notion seems to be wishful thinking to me, if indeed the numbers of lambs and kids that Josephus speaks about (265,000) is even remotely credible. The logistics of such a number would almost certainly require that the sacrificing begin much earlier than is often suggested. Sometimes our quaint little notions, however cheery or helpful or "enlightening", just don't bear up under the weight of ontology.

Something interesting just occurred to me, something that might make that "I thought I was wrong, but I was wrong" thing kick-in on this subject. On any normal Passover, if Josephus's figures are credible, the sacrificing would need to begin as early as noon or possibly even prior to that. But on the Passover in question, it would have been impossible for that to take place...because the sun was darkened from the sixth to the ninth hour! Depending on just how dark it was, it would have clearly impeded the normal routine, even if only because of the psychological and social effect the darkness would have had on the population at Jerusalem. So, if the priests were waiting or immobilized by the darkness, that might have kept the first lamb from being slaughtered until the ninth hour. Something to ponder.

Kevin Maples

On any normal Passover, if Josephus's figures are credible, the sacrificing would need to begin as early as noon or possibly even prior to that.

From my thesis: "Many scholars have suggested that the chronology of John places Jesus‘ death at the same time as the slaying of the lambs in the temple."

Such as:

G. R. Beasley-Murray, John, Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 36 (Waco: Word, 1987),
341; C. H. Dodd, The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel (Cambridge: At the University Press,
1958), 424; William E. Hull, ―John,‖ in Luke-John, vol. 9, The Broadman Bible Commentary, ed.
Clifton J. Allen (Nashville: Broadman, 1970), 357; G. H. C. Macgregor, The Gospel of John, The
Moffat New Testament Commentary (New York: Harper, 1928) , 349; R. H. Strachan, The
Fourth Gospel: It’s Significance and Environment, 3d ed. (London: SCM Press, 1960), 317;
Charles H. Talbert, Reading John: A Literary and Theological Commentary on the Fourth Gospel
and the Johannine Epistles (New York: Crossroads, 1994) , 241; Herman C. Waetjen, The Gospel
of the Beloved Disciple, (New York: T & T Clark, 2005), 401.

Kevin Maples

There is a more detailed discussion of this issue in the thesis if you are interested.

Jack Caviness

William E. Hull, ―John,‖ in Luke-John, vol. 9, The Broadman Bible Commentary, ed.
Clifton J. Allen (Nashville: Broadman, 1970)

Wow! Didn't know any copies of that commentary still existed [:D] I attended Southeastern back in those days [:$] Understand that it is a very different institution these days.

There is a more detailed discussion of this issue in the thesis if you are interested.

I am—very much interested in your discussion.