Keeping up with the Jones

I know that the Orthodox don't have a base package yet - I'm anxiously awaiting it and wondering if I can afford to up my Anglican or Lutheran packages or have to save my pennies for the Orthodox. However, it is time to think ahead, to raise up in rebellion and ask that Verbum be tailored for your needs. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/83608/586210.aspx#586210 and comment re: Orthodox needs I didn't think of.

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George Somsel

I can't keep up with Matthew since I think he has more money than I. [;)]

DMB

Well, first, I think Verbum SHOULD be tailored; Logos5 really is designed for a non-protesting Protestants (basically the guys that played in the March Madness game).

But you have to admit, MJ, for us-'ns that live on an old OL package, watching this, looks like a poker game (I hope that's not heretical).

'I have two Reformist Queens, and a Lutheran Jack. I'll raise you eight, plus a Verbum Capstone.'

But I DO wonder what a Verbum really should look like? I guess that's your question, though I imagine you have strong thoughts (which I've not seen).

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/586246#Comment_586246

I can't keep up with Matthew since I think he has more money than I.

The tax collector ? or the forum MVP?

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/586275#Comment_586275

, watching this, looks like a poker game (I hope that's not heretical).

just don't play your Dracula card to early otherwise you will loose at Community Poker.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587914#Comment_587914

The tax collector ? or the forum MVP?

I wish I were a tax collector. If I were I'd have more Logos books. [8-|]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/586275#Comment_586275

Well, first, I think Verbum SHOULD be tailored;

I have no problem with tailored features as long as people understand the actual relationships e.g.

Catholics and Orthodox needs differ only in that the Orthodox do note need the Western Church resources while the Western Church needs the Eastern and Oriental Church materials.
Anglican use a 3-legged stool model so Tradition is also critical for them. They have both confessions and church documents.
Lutheran interpret from a confessional perspective and use church position papers
Methodists use a quadrilateral also recognizing Tradition as critical
All of the above use multiple lectionaries, have a cycle of saints, use a broad canon liturgically . . .
Moravians have a liturgical calendar and lectionary (and a wonderful Holy Week tradition)

My problem is the labeling of Verbum as Catholic when it is the better fit for more than 80% of Christianity. As for what Verbum should look like - I trust Louis St. Hilaire, Andrew Jones and Gabe Martini. What I don't trust is the Protestant side of Logos to see the needs as a continuum and encouraging the Verbum team to take the broader view. And as a Catholic with many Eastern Rite friends and a couple of Anglican-usage firneds, I need all the Orthodox, Catholic and Angican material to work together as a broadly Catholic, i.e. the complete Church connected to Rome. And with a Lutheran grandmother and daughter-in-law, I want similar support for Lutherans (or at least high Lutherans) and just because I love the Moravian music and Holy Week . . .

On the other hand, there is a chunk of Christianity that is Logos historic base for which lectionaries, Tradition, saints, church documents, creeds/confessions/documents are absent or minimal concerns. But there is no firm dividing line - its a continuum of a cluster of practices.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587926#Comment_587926

What I don't trust is the Protestant side of Logos to see the needs as a continuum and encouraging the Verbum team to take the broader view.

That statement confuses me for a couple reasons. First, I am not so sure that the owners of Logos fit into the "Protestant" side of your division. Secondly, no matter what the doctrinal persuasion the founders of Logos ascribe to, they have obviously proven trustworthy by hiring Louis, Andrew, and Gabe to accomplish the Verbum success. I don't know why Logos' leadership is untrustworthy. Are you wishing the Vatican would buy Verbum?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587933#Comment_587933

First, I am not so sure that the owners of Logos fit into the "Protestant" side of your division.

This is not my division, it is the division that I am protesting. The last time I knew the owners of Logos considered themselves to be "not Catholic."

Are you wishing the Vatican would buy Verbum?

Quite the opposite - I'm pushing for more inclusivity. It is my observation from such things as how lectionaries were first implemented, from the way notes were implemented (and Bob's defense of them be as Bible margin notes), from the long delay in the Catholic edition of L2 ... that the design decisions are being made by a collective with a strong understanding of Bible study and use within their own tradition but with only a superficial knowledge of the requirements for features not used within their own tradition. I believe that Logos truly wishes to expand their features. I believe that Western Catholics will be well taken care of. However, as long as Logos believes the division to be Catholic/non-Catholic I will not trust that they understand the needs of the Anglican/Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Lutheran/Oriental Orthodox/"high church protestants" end of the continuum. And because of the breadth of the Catholic Church, I get a much better product if everyone is better served.

It happens that my area of Biblical study expertise is extremely narrow - the use of scripture in liturgy, the training of ministers to proclaim the world, the selection of other liturgical elements to best frame/show off the scripture. In this very narrow area, I became knowledgeable across the entire ACELO/ mainline protestant spectrum. Yes, I can easily pull Huegonot, Moravian, Presbyterian, Wesleyan ... psalters and lectionaries off my shelves. And because of my early religious training I can see how the Uniform Lessons aka ISSL (http://www.ncccusa.org/news/120326uniformlessons.html ) is just another lectionary. So I push where I can for the one area where I can be certain that I know what I am talking about.

Given your normal positions, I am a bit surprised that you aren't also coming down on the side of Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran receiving the same "extra perks" that Verbum gives Catholics which is all that I am asking for. I am also deliberately stating that the dividing line is blurry and that the traditions that cross the divide need to speak up and state where their needs fall.

I'm somewhat surprised at the push back when I try to support the quite visible non-Catholic Verbum user community.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587949#Comment_587949

The last time I knew the owners of Logos considered themselves to be "not Catholic."

Just this last week Dan Pritchett stated in the forums he is Anglican, I guess that does qualify as "not Catholic." [:)]

So I push where I can for the one area where I can be certain that I know what I am talking about.

I appreciate your contributions. I will argue that you have wide areas of expertise.

I believe that Western Catholics will be well taken care of. However, as long as Logos believes the division to be Catholic/non-Catholic I will not trust that they understand the needs of the Anglican/Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Lutheran/Oriental Orthodox/"high church protestants" end of the continuum.

"high church protestants" ....THAT is something I understand. But I am worried about Logos spending all their attention on the Verbum side of publishing. I don't want to wait forever for Protestant packages like Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite, and Baptist. Meanwhile, I keep buying the other packages.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587958#Comment_587958

"high church protestants" ....THAT is something I understand. But I am worried about Logos spending all their attention on the Verbum side of publishing. I don't want to wait forever for Protestant packages like Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite, and Baptist. Meanwhile, I keep buying the other packages.

I can probably raise some eyebrows, but as a member of the Anglican Communion I still consider myself to be Protestant. I realize that many don't, but I think that's historically correct.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587958#Comment_587958

But I am worried about Logos spending all their attention on the Verbum side of publishing. I don't want to wait forever for Protestant packages like Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite,

I'm less concerned about the publishing issue - I'm concerned about the divergence of the software leaving a broad group underserved.

Just this last week Dan Pritchett stated in the forums he is Anglican

I missed that. I'd never have guessed from the early software.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587972#Comment_587972

Just this last week Dan Pritchett stated in the forums he is Anglican

I missed that. I'd never have guessed from the early software.

It just occurred to me there is more than one Dan Pritchett on the forums. Let me find out which Dan Pritchett was posting and I will get back to you. [:$]

EDIT:Should have named the thread "Keeping up with the Pritchetts"

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587963#Comment_587963

as a member of the Anglican Communion I still consider myself to be Protestant. I realize that many don't, but I think that's historically correct.

I know people who who are Anglican on all three sides Anglo-Catholic/via media/ Protestant and they all seem to prove it by their beliefs and practices. I simply nod and let them all be historically correct.

M.Megel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/587981#Comment_587981

I am a Lutheran from Germany and agree with MJ that a lot of the Verbum futures are very interesting or even essential for me. I would love to se them in a german logos base package.