Shrooms and the divine

I know these may be a stretch for some, but for those who have followed and have benefited from John Allegro's philology and want to see his name restored - these are the books to consider

After reading both, I'm now convinced more than ever that Dr. Allegro was wrongly stereo-typed and his findings do in fact have validity.

Check out this Logos resource for a daughter's take on her dad's bout with Wasson and others.

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David Paul

The Sacred Mushroom and The Cross

The Holy Mushroom: Evidence of Mushrooms in Judeo-Christianity

I have to tell you...I'd be more inclined to give this a fair hearing if the book was titled The Holy Mushroom: Evidence of Mushrooms in the Bible.

It's the difference between credible and incredible.

Milkman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593018#Comment_593018

Or do you mean: eatable and non-eatable?

To your point - have you read either? Have you followed Dr. Allegro' works? What about his posthumous releases as well? Any chance of having read his journal responses to those who rebut his work, but have in fact not read them entirely but only depended on others to appraise them of the journal contents? . . .

I suppose one could go on see if people really know what they are responding to intelligently, but I wont. Men like Dr. Allegro worked hard in their field and do not deserve to be undertaken without a full or at least a good handling of their work.

So, I'd be very interested in a opinion/review from anyone who has not only "studied under" Dr. Allegro or has followed his career and also fully read his works and those who disagree with him as well.

The Sacred Mushroom and The Cross

The Holy Mushroom: Evidence of Mushrooms in Judeo-Christianity

I have to tell you...I'd be more inclined to give this a fair hearing if the book was titled The Holy Mushroom: Evidence of Mushrooms in the Bible.

It's the difference between credible and incredible.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593022#Comment_593022

Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, (Ethno-Mycological Studies) by R. Gordon Wasson
The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries by R. Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck and Huston Smith
Amanita Muscaria; Herb of Immortality Donald E. Teeter

These are essential to the area - the first Vedic/Avestan, the second Greek and the third reaching into Judaism and Christianity. I'm not familiar with Dr. Allegro but it looks worth exploring at least.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593022#Comment_593022

The thing is...I operate on the principle that things have to rise to a certain level before I have need to invest in them, even if it's just time. I am open-minded regarding Scripture and what its possibilities are, because I know for a fact that the Book is practically oozing stuff no one has ever recognized before. But for someone to suggest the presence of some unusual or unexpected concept...let's just say I require proof of concept. Everyone should.

In this case, any Bible verse that gives any indication that mushrooms are even remotely in view would be the first rung.

Milkman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593023#Comment_593023

One has to understand that Wasson's Soma outrightly declared that the amanita muscaria was in fact current with both Mosaic Israel and first century literature (see Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge as Amanita). Though he(Wasson) wasn't a professional who was degreed in entheobotany, but an amateur mycologist and held this view that the Rig Vedic Soma was the Amanita muscaria mushroom or the magic mushroom.

However, and this is the crux of the entire back and forth. Wasson changed his mind regarding the use of and recognition of the psychoactive shroom AFTER his book was released.

The question is why? Why did he have a change of mind? Hmm. That's the story. Was it pressure from an institute, sponsor, or the academic community?

I suppose if one really wanted to get the bottom of this issue, a thorough reading of Dionysian associations of the hallucinogenic mushroom would be of the first order.

Of course this all could be a new age pot-smoking apologetic in favour of an old but re hashed argument for a christian alternative view.

Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, (Ethno-Mycological Studies) by R. Gordon Wasson
The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries by R. Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck and Huston Smith
Amanita Muscaria; Herb of Immortality Donald E. Teeter

These are essential to the area - the first Vedic/Avestan, the second Greek and the third reaching into Judaism and Christianity. I'm not familiar with Dr. Allegro but it looks worth exploring at least.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593022#Comment_593022

So, I'd be very interested in a opinion/review from anyone who has not only "studied under" Dr. Allegro or has followed his career and also fully read his works and those who disagree with him as well

How about Erich von Däniken? I've read Chariots of the Gods. [:D]

Milkman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593042#Comment_593042

Hey Tramp?

Did u get me reply? You never responded. I asked how your pooch was doing. BTW how's the leg?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593037#Comment_593037

The question is why? Why did he have a change of mind? Hmm. That's the story. Was it pressure from an institute, sponsor, or the academic community?

It's been 40 years but I think there were academic publications where he explained some of his changes of opinion. As I recall, Wasson was a New York banker whose work on Soma gained him a Harvard appointment (unpaid).

Of course this all could be a new age pot-smoking apologetic in favour of an old but rehashed argument for a christian alternative view.

I won't vouch for anyone other than Wasson. But both "new age" and "pot-smoking" are an insult to Wasson who was much more in the tradition of a European gentleman scholar. He would have been quick to admit that there were probably errors in his work - he had few shoulders to stand on. But his work on Vedic/Avestan soma was brilliant ... down to deer urine. Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty of the University of Chicago collaborated with him to expand the Soma connection I believe. Teeter I barely remember but as I recall he built on, strengthened, and corrected Wasson's work in a responsible way. I remember nothing of the Judaic/Christian connections ... a true absolute blank in my memory.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593045#Comment_593045

I asked how your pooch was doing. BTW how's the leg?

No pooch.

Legs doing fine. Thanks. They are half bionic, you know.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593050#Comment_593050

I remember nothing of the Judaic/Christian connections ... a true absolute blank in my memory.

Pot usage affects short-term memory. [;)]

DMB

Well, two more books if one is curious:

Many already have: https://www.logos.com/product/17007/john-marco-allegro-the-maverick-of-the-dead-sea-scrolls Anne Brown (2005) takes a fairly cold (unbiased-ish) and decently in-depth review of Allegro's argument in one of the chapters.

And if you were lucky enough to bid on https://www.logos.com/product/33883/plinys-natural-history Allegro and quite a bit of the research bounced off of Pliny and others.

The whole area is historically avoided not just by scholars but 'normal' people. The human mind 'out of control' is uncomfortable to even talk about. Christian magic and talismans are another area people like to avoid like death. But early Christianity had a heavy magic-spells element to it.

Out here, it's not mushrooms, by peyote buttons that drove much religion. The problem is that it's extremely difficult to get beyond random data points. But even today, modern missionaries must deal with it.

My theory is far more prosaic; I suspect a good portion of the bronze and iron age behaviors, leading into the greek/roman is simply chemistry of the water, pots/pans and lead pipes. Enclosed dung-based smoke to heat the water. And a whole host of new-age (technology!) behaviors.

EDIT: My just finished Kachina and the Cross book (1600s New Mexico) noted the Fransiscan's aversion to Hopi coal ... heavy sulphur content. Oddly Hopi has lengthy lives. Gee.

Kent

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593092#Comment_593092

My wife's cousins belong to a local "Christian" Church. Their seventeen year old son attended a camp put on by this group two years ago in which mushrooms were part of the worship service. He returned hearing voices and acting very erratic. He has been in therapy and even committed once since that time. It is sad to see this kid and the family have to go through this knowing what a good kid he was.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593103#Comment_593103

Kent, that's unfortunate for sure. People (many) aren't aware mushrooms are big business (in many ways). We were picnicing on the Peaks and were overwhelmed by mushroom-ers. There were far more mushroom people than picnic-ers (us).

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593103#Comment_593103

My wife's cousins belong to a local "Christian" Church. Their seventeen year old son attended a camp put on by this group two years ago in which mushrooms were part of the worship service. He returned hearing voices and acting very erratic. He has been in therapy and even committed once since that time. It is sad to see this kid and the family have to go through this knowing what a good kid he was.

These days, the Christian King's name is Rodney...and his mantra is "can't we all just get along?" Altered states tend to heavily reinforce this concept.

"Make love, not war, maaaaaan." Ergo, Love is a temple, Love a higher law...sisters...brothers...one love where all colors blend into one. In this mindset, we won't just "all get along", we will all cease being separate and become a great big wonderful One. Take another puff, eat another button or brownie, and just blend in, maaaaaaan.

Except...CLEAR THINKING is a fundamental tenant of worshipping YHWH. Ezek. 44:21; Lev. 10:9, 10, 11 Why? That one may retain the ability to make distinctions. Inebriation not only tends to reduce this capability; it practically removes any sense that it is necessary, or even good. But His holiness despises "blendling" because blending is the opposite of being holy. Holiness is purity achieved through separation, and presence of mind is required to achieve it. It also requires focus on revelation, not reliance on imagination. Imagination is the hallmark of altered states. Because imagination is conflated into creativity, which is conflated into equivalence with Creation--a good thing!--so then imagination is lauded as a great religious ideal. But like a number of other things that YHWH reserves, creativity per se is not a universal good. It is the provenance of pantheons and gnosticisms which are creatively imaginative when it comes to what constitutes valid, viable religion and descriptions of the unseen. Purpose and knowledge can be acquired through the imaginative examination of creation rather than the examination of revelation. Eisegesis LOVES imagination. Never mind that a big part of the alteredness comes through chemical warping of that which is Designed to be straight. Prophecy is unrevealed revelation, and only the mind capable of making distinctions can "see" that which is revealed yet concealed. Prov. 25:2. The "vision" of Scripture is not "seeing what isn't there"; it's seeing what is there but hidden. Prov. 29:18. No drug-stoked shaman or priest has ever seen such things, otherwise they would be known--and they are not. The drug-addled approach cannot work because it has not worked.

The peace of unity is not a Rodney King utopia of "getting along" oneness; it is a function of distinctions made and attained (thus becoming like "the" One) rather than artificially and deliberately blending away all distinctions so that there is nothing that could possible offend...for that offends YHWH deeply. 'Shrooms are not His pattern of worship. Indeed, "do not learn the ways of the nations" for "the customs of the people are a delusion". Jer 10:2, 3; Lev. 20:23. Such things bear a distinct and inevitable spiritual downside.

And then, as you point out, there is the physical downside.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593119#Comment_593119

I agree that mind-altering substances shouldn't be used to "understand" God. However, I wouldn't go so far as say that these substances have no purpose for Christians. God gave us a vast variety of plants and fungi to use for a variety of legitimate purposes. One of these purposes is medicine. It would be foolish to take such a far-right position as to ignore this fact. I've seen studies that show that psilocybin ('shrooms) may help correct some mental disorders - acting almost like a reset button. Also, there is increasing evidence that shows marijuana helps with many diseases, such as cancer, multiple scoliosis, epilepsy, glaucoma, and dementia. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593122#Comment_593122

I agree that mind-altering substances shouldn't be used to "understand" God.

That's pretty much what I was confining my comments to.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What?? Not even if it's a red-headed step-child? I've heard of studies where this leads to a need for fewer diaper changes and more restful sleep. [|-)]

I've seen studies that show that psilocybin ('shrooms) may help correct some mental disorders - acting almost like a reset button.

Were you on a "vision quest" when you "saw" this study? [I]

...multiple scoliosis...

For those with more than one backbone, this is an especially debilitating condition...unless the curvatures are in opposite directions, in which case they cancel each other out.

Also, there is increasing evidence that shows marijuana helps with many diseases, such as cancer, multiple scoliosis, epilepsy, glaucoma, and dementia.

Yes, it helps with all of these...and from what I hear, it's also a blessing for those who are have RD (recreational disability). I hear that almost as many people have RD as have ED...which is like half the population (according to the Center for Disease Control...or commercials--I forget which).

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593128#Comment_593128

I was once told I have very minor scoliosis. Multiple Scoliosis sounds much much worse