Compendium of Christian Theology on Community Pricing
Comments
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Over several years, I've seen this discussion come up so many times that I wonder.... If there's someone who feels passionately enough about community pricing to write up the logic, put it out on the wiki in its own page, perhaps under FAQs. Then we can refer questions to that page rather than rehash the same material.
I'm just sayin'... [:)] [;)]
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
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JackCaviness said:
Your logic is flawed on this point.
Let's apply a little logic here [:D] There are at least three possible goals in bidding:
- To purchase the product at the lowest possible cost [bid low]
- To receive the product as quickly as possible [bid high]
- To minimize the risk that production of this products slows a product you prefer [don't bid]
It reads to me as if you are both right - you're simply working towards different end positions.
Okay - have at it. Who is being the most illogical?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Let's apply a little logic here
There are at least three possible goals in bidding:- To purchase the product at the lowest possible cost [bid low]
- To receive the product as quickly as possible [bid high]
- To minimize the risk that production of this products slows a product you prefer [don't bid]
It reads to me as if you are both right - you're simply working towards different end positions.
Okay - have at it. Who is being the most illogical?
The Logos Community Pricing page states, and I quote, "The Community Pricing program is all about getting more books onto your computer at the cheapest price possible." In light of that, my statements are the most logical ends towards achieving the purpose to which Logos has started the Community Pricing program.
[Further, even if one has goal (2) that may not be achieved by placing a higher bid. I've already described a scenario in which higher bids could drive away potential participants and, thus, delay the production of the item.]
perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com
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John Bowling said:
The Logos Community Pricing page states, and I quote, "The Community Pricing program is all about getting more books onto your computer at the cheapest price possible." In light of that, my statements are the most logical ends towards achieving the purpose to which Logos has started the Community Pricing program.
Good response bringing in the seller's stated goal of the bidder - which may or may not be the actual goal of the bidder. I'll give you a point (in tennis I'd say 'ad-in' to you) and wait for a response from the other side.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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JackCaviness said:
People following your plan has kept Barnes Notes in Community Pricing for years.
I beg to differ. The reason I haven't (and won't) bid on Barnes notes it two-fold:
1. It is available for free in other software.
2. More importantly, it was available as a PBB in L3, and eventually will be in L4.
I don't want to pay for something I can get for free. Though it won't be 'tagged' as extensively as if Logos had created it, I don't need it to be...I'll just read it as a commentary (none of my print commentaries are tagged. Come to think of it, I don't think any of my print books are tagged, yet they do the trick [;)] ). I would rather use that money for some other resource that 'tickles my fancy'.
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BTW, I've lowered all of my community pricing bids. I admit I did not understand the logic behind it, yet I was told the best thing to do was bid high so I did.
John you have converted me to the 'dark side'... [6]
p.s. It would be nice if a Logos staff member could weigh in on the debate and clear up some of the murky water. Perhaps we should start a new thread addressing community pricing instead of debating it under 'Compendium of Christian Theology on Community Pricing'.
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John Bowling said:
This statement is deceiving (though not intentionally) because "lowest price" in your scenario is actually the highest market price since everyone bid the maximum value. When people think of "lowest price" when they are shopping for a bargain they usually think below the market value or, at the very least, below the highest market value. So in any other scenario I think we would correctly say that your statement is false, and it seems to be false in this scenario too.
As was illustrated by the last time out of community pricing, the "market" rate was approximately twice the rate that those participating in community pricing paid. The potential flaw in your logic is assuming that the "market price" set in the community forum is the same as the "market price" when it is out of community pricing. If you are to compare time vs. money which is what the tradeoff is, do you compare only against the price as it comes out of community pricing?
Going back to my list of three basic options (not the only options) one bid attempts to minimize cash outlay. The other attempts to minimize time outlay. Both are limited resources.
Sorry but the logic match is back to deuce for failing to distinquish what "market value" you refererenced (money vs. time).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Brandon Blumberg said:
I admit I did not understand the logic behind it, yet I was told the best thing to do was bid high so I did.
Your choice is simple. If cash is more valuable than time, bid low. If time is more valuable than cash, bid high. Admittedly this is an oversimplication. If it is an item that you predict will be very popular, biding low is safe because time is a small percentage of the equation for when it will make it over the top. If you predict that an item will have a limited market, then bidding high is the way to go. Rather than an auction, I would use the image of a horse race - your most rational bid will include predicting the future based on the facts and impressions at hand.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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John Bowling said:
Exactly, so the person should watch the item closely and move it up if he needs to.
Sorry, I don't have the time to do this - which is why I drive a friend nuts by bidding exactly what I am willing to pay for an item on eBay. But I point out to her that she frequently pays more than she intended in the excitement of the auction. I don't. Seems like this was taught me by my father who usually sold bulls at auction and bought them in private transactions.[H]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry to rain on the party but is anyone actually bidding or just debating[;)]? Please place your bid here http://www.logos.com/communitypricing Thanks.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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MJ. Smith said:
The potential flaw in your logic is assuming that the "market price" set in the community forum is the same as the "market price" when it is out of community pricing. If you are to compare time vs. money which is what the tradeoff is, do you compare only against the price as it comes out of community pricing?
Well you have to take it in context. In my post the "market" is all of those bidding and, thus, the price you're paying is the highest market price if everyone bids the maximum.
When Logos moves the item to pre-pub they, Logos, may raise the price. Does this reflect a different market with a new market price? That's a little harder to answer. Eventually, only time will tell if Logos is selling the pre-pub at market price since that can only be determined by whether or not consumers are willing to pay for it at that price. It may in fact be that they are over pricing it, and if a lot of people are bidding and are bidding at their maximum value then we have some good reason to say they are over pricing it. [Edit: we might also take note of the fact that some pre-pubs have been "gathering interest" for a long long time. Is that because no one is interested or because the Logos price doesn't reflect the market price??]
Of course, one also has to take into consideration that under different circumstances persons may be willing to pay different amounts. Often, their willingness to pay such and such may be entirely irrational. In experimental psychology we ran an experiment studying what's called the "anchoring effect." The results, which have been confirmed numerous times and in other areas besides weight, are that person's judgments can be effected or shifted by introducing a new range of items (psychological or physical). (So, for example, if Logos puts a new price tag on an item and says "you save such and such" then this can serve as an artificial anchor for people.)
perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com
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Ted Hans said:
Sorry to rain on the party but is anyone actually bidding or just debating
? Please place your bid here http://www.logos.com/communitypricing Thanks.Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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[st]
[um]
[<:o)]
Me? I'm just reporting a forum bug that won't show me partying.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Rather than an auction, I would use the image of a horse race - your most rational bid will include predicting the future based on the facts and impressions at hand.
Ah yes, but with community pricing, I can 'change my horse' at any time. If another horse starts to jump out in front, I can switch my bid to him (or her [;)] ). So I might as well start with the lowest bid and wait to see which 'horse' jumps to an early lead. If most people bid like this, the lowest price 'horse' would always jump out to an early lead and eventually win. If my horse starts to fall behind, I can then make my decision to back the 'horse' in the lead.
Plus, the community pricing resources usually move very slowly so I only have to check those that I have bid on every couple of weeks (or just wait for the forum peepz to send out a friendly reminder about resources that will be ending soon [:D] ).
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MJ. Smith said:
Let's apply a little logic here
There are at least three possible goals in bidding:- To purchase the product at the lowest possible cost [bid low]
- To receive the product as quickly as possible [bid high]
- To minimize the risk that production of this products slows a product you prefer [don't bid]
It seems to me that there is one more option - the one that I apply. Bid what the product is worth to me. Somethings are not worth (to me) adding to my library and I don't bid. Other works are worth more, multi-volume works even more. I will generally start at $20 per volume with a cap of $100. I then ask myself, "Is this really worth this much to me?" And adjust my bid by whatever the answer. Sometimes up, sometimes down, and sometimes I will not bid.
I will also periodically review my bids - to balance them against my current bank account and against the current bidding history. And, again, bids may go up or down depending on these factors.
I have found, using this strategy, that most items finally go into production for less than I what I bid. Occasionally, I to ask myself if the product is worth the higher final price to me. Sometimes, I say yes; sometimes, I say no. In the latter case, I am willing to walk away. And sometimes, the final price goes down even further.
Just my personal strategy -
Yours because His,
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Kevin Becker said:
I think more information (ie. knowing the estimated production cost and have graph showing what-ifs based on the current level of interest) would make community pricing much more effective.
The information is embedded in the graph, though without the specifics. The 100% line represents the production costs, and the curve with points reflects the actual revenue generated if we sold the book at that price. So if you see that both $10 and $20 are at exactly 50%, you know that there are exactly twice as many $10 bids as $20.
We could show the actual numbers, or even add the number of bids as a column behind each price, but we didn't want to clutter and confuse things, and we don't want to expose actual units and costs. (It's not that we're secretive, it's that when we reveal actual numbers we tend to get into emotional arguments about why people are amazed something costs so much, or how someone else could process it cheaper, or why don't we all just OCR the book as a collaborative effort, etc.)
I believe the smart strategy is to bid your true, highest bid up front. Yes, if two people bid $50 on a $100 project, it would go out at $50, when maybe it could have been less. But that's why we only process bids on Fridays after it crossed the line by Wednesday -- to ensure there's time for enough people to see and bid.
If everyone bid their high bid the week we put it live, in theory every community priced title that was going to make it would do so in the first week, at the best price. (Nobody is punished for bidding high -- the more people that come in, the lower the price, even if we would theoretically make more at the higher price. Our promise with CPP is that we'll sell it at the LOWEST price that covers costs.)
The bid adjusting waiting game may theoretically protect the player and save a couple bucks, but when everyone does it the project is delayed -- possibly forever -- and everyone loses the game.
I think game theory and pricing are fascinating areas, and we're always looking for new ways to experiment in this area.
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Bob Pritchett said:
The information is embedded in the graph, though without the specifics. The 100% line represents the production costs, and the curve with points reflects the actual revenue generated if we sold the book at that price. So if you see that both $10 and $20 are at exactly 50%, you know that there are exactly twice as many $10 bids as $20.
We could show the actual numbers, or even add the number of bids as a column behind each price, but we didn't want to clutter and confuse things, and we don't want to expose actual units and costs. (It's not that we're secretive, it's that when we reveal actual numbers we tend to get into emotional arguments about why people are amazed something costs so much, or how someone else could process it cheaper, or why don't we all just OCR the book as a collaborative effort, etc.)
I believe the smart strategy is to bid your true, highest bid up front. Yes, if two people bid $50 on a $100 project, it would go out at $50, when maybe it could have been less. But that's why we only process bids on Fridays after it crossed the line by Wednesday -- to ensure there's time for enough people to see and bid.
If everyone bid their high bid the week we put it live, in theory every community priced title that was going to make it would do so in the first week, at the best price. (Nobody is punished for bidding high -- the more people that come in, the lower the price, even if we would theoretically make more at the higher price. Our promise with CPP is that we'll sell it at the LOWEST price that covers costs.)
The bid adjusting waiting game may theoretically protect the player and save a couple bucks, but when everyone does it the project is delayed -- possibly forever -- and everyone loses the game.
I think game theory and pricing are fascinating areas, and we're always looking for new ways to experiment in this area.
Thanks, as always, for your input. I understand the need for a withholding certain specifics as a business to avoid those emotional arguments about true costs. Publishing is a lot more labor-intensive than most people realize; my wife is a copy editor for an academic publisher so I've had a taste of how many labor-hours it takes to get a project out the door.
I just wish there was a way that Logos could communicate "round up 10 more people at this price and it goes into production. The issue (as I see it) with Community pricing is that it generally involves low-priority books (public domain works with potentially more current offerings available elswhere) with no means to predict timing. It's a low risk way for Logos to build its catalog but it seems to lack that extra something to hold user interest.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
The issue (as I see it) with Community pricing is that it generally involves low-priority books (public domain works with potentially more current offerings available elswhere) with no means to predict timing.
If this is the case then maybe we could see Thomas Reid's works on Community Pricing.
As for the rest, I stand by my earlier comments. "Lowest" price is simply descriptive of the current bids and in that respect doesn't say much. This becomes obvious when one applies to the example of the two bidders for the $100 item.
perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com
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Bob Pritchett said:
The information is embedded in the graph, though without the specifics. The 100% line represents the production costs, and the curve with points reflects the actual revenue generated if we sold the book at that price. So if you see that both $10 and $20 are at exactly 50%, you know that there are exactly twice as many $10 bids as $20.
Bob, This is confusing. If there are enough bids at $10 to cover half the production costs and also enough bids at $20 to cover half, what about those people who bid more than 20? Shouldn't they be counted in the number who are willing to pay 20 or 10, even though they bid more? You'd reach production cost sooner if you counted on the fact that all people who bid more than X would be willing to pay X. Suppose your production costs are $1000. If 5 people bid 100, and 5 bid 80, and 5 bid 60, and 5 bid 50, even though none of those prices has enough bids to go ahead with production, you've actually got 20 people willing to pay at least 50, which gives you the needed $1000 to go ahead with it at $50. Is my logic flawed? Does your chart actually show this or does it only show the number of bids at each price?
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The higher bidders are included.
So in the $10 / $20 scenario - let's say there are 50 people who have bid $20 or above - that's $1000 (at the $20 level)
So now let's assume that an additional 50 people have bid only up to $10. In total that is 100 people who will pay $10 (or more) to get the title published. - but because it's only the $10 level it only totals $1000.
In Bob's example he says this was 50% of the cost so in order for that book to rollk over into pre-pub stage there needs to be another 50 people bidding $20 or more - or another 100 people bidding $10 or more.
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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PS. That's why you're encouraged to bid your top dollar price you're willing to pay. In the above scenario if you are one of those extra 50 people who bids $20 or more to put the book into production then even if you bid $100 you will still get it for $20. It may be that you sooooo want this resource you would be prepared to pay the $100 but then I don't doubt you'd be very pleased to get it for $20.
Or even less if the book hits 100% and all the people who bid $10 raise their bids so they don't miss out. Those extra $20 bids will actually drive the CP price down to $13.33 because there are now 150 people sharing the production cost of $2000.
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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So enough talk - go bid already :]
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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Kevin Becker said:
but it seems to lack that extra something to hold user interest.
How about if your CP bid put you in to a draw to get the title for free [:)]
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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Jeremy White said:
How about if your CP bid put you in to a draw to get the title for free
This actually crossed my mind.... I think it's a good idea.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:Jeremy White said:
How about if your CP bid put you in to a draw to get the title for free
This actually crossed my mind.... I think it's a good idea.
+1 [Y] Now that would get more people bidding! Great idea!
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All it would take is an announcement on the blog and some promotion on the boards. I don't doubt that it would mean a lot of people would just bid the minimum so that could have an entry but not expecting that it would actually be enough to purchase the title.But at least they become more aware of what's available and may decide to up their bids for resources they are actually interested in.
But then again, if enough people pledge a little that turns into quite a lot. According to the forum stats there are 14,000 users on these boards and it's a reasonable assumption to think that this constitutes a core group of a much larger user base. But even if all those 14,000 people all made a $2 bid on something that's $28,000. I don't how much Logos needs before they hit the production button (I know it's dependant on the complexity / number of pages, etc of the title) but surely that's enough for one or two pages. And considering what people spend on coffee and other such stuff - 2 bucks is a bargain for a few more resources in your library, even ones that you may not refer to much.
The only other thing lacking in the equation for most people is having a wider range of titles to bid on. Currently there on 7 titles available on that page - I would love to see a lot more listed. I'm sure it's not for lack of suggestions from the board.
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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Compendium of Christian Theology - 3 Volumes has been gaining some traction lately! Approaching the 90% mark. Check out the resource at http://www.logos.com/communitypricing/details/5664 if you haven't placed a bid yet or want to up it. It's currently at it's peak at $10.
Jason Saling
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Jason Saling said:
Compendium of Christian Theology - 3 Volumes has been gaining some traction lately! Approaching the 90% mark. Check out the resource at http://www.logos.com/communitypricing/details/5664 if you haven't placed a bid yet or want to up it. It's currently at it's peak at $10.
I have been in this resource for a while now. I just had something really weird happen though.
I guess I signed up to get this thread in email. When this posting came to my inbox....I clicked on the link and got a1600 dollar sears riding mower. Is this just strange or what. I clicked on the main posting and it was correctly linked to the forums and that link in the message went to the correct CP page.
William
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