New Feature: Propositional Outlines
Comments
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Sam Choi said:
Does anyone know who created this? So far, it seems right on.
Was it Steven Runge? If so, that is amazing!Sam:
If you were referring to the propositional outlines, most of the work was done by Mark Keaton. I did some work at the end of the project to make sure it was all ready for Logos 6. Glad to see all of the positive feedback so far. If any questions come up about the data, I'll be following the thread and glad to answer them.
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Mark Barnes said:Sam Choi said:
Does anyone know who created this?
The bibliographic citation says Witthoff, David, Kristopher A. Lyle, and Matt Nerdhal. Psalms Form and Structure. Edited by Eli Evans. Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2014.
That is, if "this" is the Psalms Explorer.
If you mean the Propositional Outlines, most of the analysis was done by Mark Keaton, until recently one of our curators in Content Innovation. Jeremy Thompson has since picked up the work (and did several books of the Bible). Mark and Jeremy were both primary contributors (along with David Witthoff) to the Bible Sense Lexicon, so they've had significant experience in categorizing the semantic functions of the text.
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Oops, Jeremy beat me to it!
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Aaaaaand ... it looks like Sean and I have been typing at the same time.
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Allen Browne said:
Detail mode wasn't quite as intuitive for me, e.g. a) I didn't quite follow the coding for parallelism. b) The Go To box didn't always work as expected (e.g. if I type in Psa 89). c) Right-clicking and choosing Copy didn't give me a useful result when I pasted into MS Word. Hebrew alongside English was nice.
I had some confusion at first, as well. The coding appears as a pop-up, but an introduction explaining the coding would be nice.
I don't get a right click menu on this tool at all. Not sure how Logos would export this, but being able to print would be nice. Anyone at Logos reading this?
Not as helpful, but still valuable is the Proverbs Interactive. I especially like that they have tried to organize the book by theme or topic, so that should one wish to study just one theme in Proverbs, they now have an easy way to do so. Unfortunately as in Psalms, there is no export or print capability nor is a way to add results to a Passage List. This hinders the tool's usefulness and I hope Logos will add at least that last-named last feature.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Sean Boisen said:
We'd like very much to do this same analysis for the OT, but that depends in part on how the feature is received by users. This kind of manual analysis is very time-intensive: I estimate our curators spent at least five person-months of effort on the NT. So if you find it helpful, speak up.
I just would like to echo my thanks also for this feature (this and inline search are two of my favorites so far in Logos 6), and I would love to see it come to the Old Testament.
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Mark Smith said:
The coding appears as a pop-up, but an introduction explaining the coding would be nice.
I'm assuming this is in reference to the parallelism annotation the Psalms Explorer.
The bottom left corner of the Psalms Explorer has an "About & Bibliography" link.
There are some more details on the terminology there, as well as other sources to follow up on. Regarding parallelism stuff, Adele Berlin's article "Parallelism" in Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary has some more information (vol 5 pp. 155-161).
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
I'm assuming this is in reference to the parallelism annotation the Psalms Explorer.
Yes we stole this thread for awhile.
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:The bottom left corner of the Psalms Explorer has an "About & Bibliography" link.
I saw that awhile back (in beta testing). I think that is good info but perhaps all those nice colored icons could be worked into that pop-up so I could find them and discover more about them without reading the entire introduction?
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Sean Boisen said:
We'd like very much to do this same analysis for the OT, but that depends in part on how the feature is received by users.
I'd just like to echo what others have said here.
In my opinion, this is one of the most promising and useful features in L6. I can imagine that I will use this increasingly in Bible study, sermon preparation and for teaching.
It really would be fantastic to have OT coverage.
I understand and appreciate that this is really time-intensive, but this feature (and other tools like it) is what increasingly distinguishes Logos from anything out there. It is one of your unique (and invaluable) selling points [:D].
Fantastic work.
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The Propositional Outlines feature is a very very useful feature. Please please have this for OT also!
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Interesting, is anyone familiar with the Bible arcing method of study? Do you think this will replace it?
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If it doesn't replace Arcing in a person's workflow, it certainly could be a great aid to helping them to Arc.
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There's definitely overlap between the Propositional Outlines and arcing.
- Both identify propositions in the text
- Both relate propositions to each other, via labels
- Both show larger relations between propositional units (arcing through larger arcs; Propositional Outlines through the indentation hierarchy)
I'd say arcing goes further in adding higher-level relationships: the Propositional Outlines mainly relate individual propositions (though again the indentation shows one kind of larger relationship, the part to the whole). And of course, arcing (as I understand it) is something you're intended to do for yourself. That's an extremely valuable exercise in Bible study, but one that requires an enormous time commitment. We've tried to offer much of that value to our users who don't have the time or ability to do that analysis themselves.
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I have been requesting a propositional outline for the past 18 month or so. I'm really excited that Logos went that route! I know that this takes a lot of work. Very much appreciated!
And yes, the OT would be a very welcome addition too!!!
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I totally agree with Peter. Thank you! Keep up the good work!
Peter Lever said:The Propositional Outlines feature is a very very useful feature. Please please have this for OT also!
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Sorry...I just started a new thread that said how much I LOVE this feature. I didn't realize this one was started.
That being said, I would have bought the crossgrade for THIS feature alone. I LOVE it!
Looking forward to (in faith) the OT!!!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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They are very good. It's fun to go to passages where I have extensive highlighting and click propositional outlines to see how my own study compares.
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It's a silly thing I suppose for me to worry about, but why do some sections start with commas?
Should we report such things as typos?
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I agree. I hope Logos decides it is work the effort because of the analytical possibilities it would open for us.
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Gao Lu said:
It's a silly thing I suppose for me to worry about, but why do some sections start with commas?
Should we report such things as typos?
The Propositional Outline annotation is done on the Greek text: that way we can transfer it to whatever your preferred Bible might be, as long as it has a reverse interlinear. That means the display is generated "on the fly". So these aren't exactly typos, but issues with the display algorithm. I'll file a case to let the developer know.
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Peter Lever said:
The Propositional Outlines feature is a very very useful feature. Please please have this for OT also!
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I have expressed my gratitude towards this new feature before. And I really like it.
I'm wondering whether we could be provided with some background to this tool. Especially concerning the labels on a propositional level, what approach has been followed with this? What school or research has this work been based on?
I'm asking so I can know how to use it better. What I have learned in connection with propositional outlining is that you label the propositions according to their relationships. That is, every proposition stands in a relationship with a previous one and/or the one that follows. Some of that is shown here with the indention of lines and putting the proposition number in parenthesis where the relationship is further apart (meaning not to the immediate preceding proposition). But the labels identify the functions of the propositions, not their relationships. This is still helpful but different. Let’s compare the two. First we have the Logos version:
Now we have the same passage labeled with relationships: (A Semantic Structural Analysis of Galatians by Elinor MacDonald Roger, SIL 1989)
This is obviously more complex. But first, it shows all the relationships well, on more than just one level. Secondly it also shows which proposition is more prominent (the one in capital letters). There are always two propositions that stand in a relationship to one another. It therefore often takes more than one label per proposition since a proposition usually stand in relationship to a previous as well as to a following proposition.
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I assume you checked logosres:lxhmsmntcglssry;art=title;off=4
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I assume you checked logosres:lxhmsmntcglssry;art=title;off=4
checked how? what does this do?
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It's the Lexham documentation of the feature.
http://www.bible-resources.org/dox/BI262_Prop_Relations is a PDF on the method and has a number of references to research further.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Really liking this feature. Would love to see OT functionality adopted, so count me in with the other affirmatives!
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MJ. Smith said:
It's the Lexham documentation of the feature.
http://www.bible-resources.org/dox/BI262_Prop_Relations is a PDF on the method and has a number of references to research further.
Thanks! The Lexham Propositional Outlines Glossary has no introduction what so ever. It "only" brings glossary entries. This was my first stop to look for information. But I got none. Unlike the Lexham Theological Wordbook, which has a great introduction explaining the methods behind the work.
I'll check out the PDF you mentioned. Thanks for directing me to it!
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MJ, the PDF would be in line with what I have learned and suggested with the excerpt from the SSA. Beekman and Callow are books in my bookshelf etc. So I do understand that approach. But I'd like to learn more about Logos' approach. Where have they learned and taken their approach from? I'm not saying propositional relationships are better than propositional functions. The semantic function of a proposition plays a big role in the communication process. And it sometimes lines up with its semantic relationship to other propositions. All I'm saying is, it is a different approach, one I haven't come across yet and therefore would like to get some insights and documentation on.
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Propositional Outlines = Lexham High Definition NT on steroids.
What even better? I use Lexham HD NT together with Propositional Outlines. [H]
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