Suggestion: The Episcopal Church, Homosexuality, and the Context of Technology
George Hobson. The Episcopal Church, Homosexuality, and the Context of Technology (Wipf & Stock, 2013)
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Looks like an interesting book after reading the forward I am not sure it is one I would buy, but I would guess it might be a big seller in the Logos community.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
Looks like an interesting book after reading the forward I am not sure it is one I would buy, but I would guess it might be a big seller in the Logos community.
Frankly, I wouldn't buy it as a stand-alone either. But I agree with Dan that it might well be popular with the folk of Logos land. And... I would be interested in dipping into it were it part of a Sexuality bundle were that bundle constructed to consist of the best of academic scholarship across a range of topics (and traditions) on sexuality/gender etc. and not just be loaded ideologically.
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I don't have too much interest in the first two subjects per se, but the third one, I've been wondering about for some time. And that is, as 'authoritative information dissemination' spreads out, what happens to religion? This is a current discussion in Japan. The shamen that knows/owns the gods, the priest with the ancient writing, the monestery with the writers, suddenly the Guttenburg press, thense free libraries, and now the internet. When a pastor gives a sermon, the pew participants already having been 'fed' many other discussions.
I tried finding books in this 'authoritative' area but I've not seen any that don't wander off. This thread's recommendation comes at it from a specific issue, for a specific denomination. Might be interesting.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I wouldn't have recommended it at all, or bought it myself (Kindle), if it weren't by my uncle. I've read it and found a lot in it that I disagreed with. But I think it would be appreciated by a certain subset of the Logos user community, so I suggested it. I think if he hadn't mixed the technology issue with the homosexuality issue he might have had two very good standalone books (neither of which I still might have agreed with), but the way he conflates the two issues is kind of odd in my mind, but it's central to his thesis, so there you have it. And he's an ordained Episcopal priest, so he's speaking largely to his own church, though the issues of course reach more broadly than that. (Incidentally, George Hobson did his DPhil at Oxford with Rowan Williams as his advisor, but he's quite a bit more conservative than Williams. He is also a poet and has published some interesting poems about the Rwandan Genocide in Forgotten Genocides of the 20th Century: A Compilation of Poetry and a beautiful book of his own poetry and photographs, Rumours of Hope: Reaching Out in Word And Imagination).
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Denise said:
I don't have too much interest in the first two subjects per se, but the third one, I've been wondering about for some time. And that is, as 'authoritative information dissemination' spreads out, what happens to religion? This is a current discussion in Japan. The shamen that knows/owns the gods, the priest with the ancient writing, the monestery with the writers, suddenly the Guttenburg press, thense free libraries, and now the internet. When a pastor gives a sermon, the pew participants already having been 'fed' many other discussions.
It's a fascinating question. I think that despite the fact that we now have thousands of resources at our finger tips, the amount of time that most people spend studying the bible and related tradition is much reduced. There's still very much a need for experienced readers, learners and educators, people who have inwardly digested the text to share their insights with others. The issue is not, these days, so much one of access to information, so much as freedom from distraction from other time-consuming tasks to dedicate time to study. Also, with technology, there's less less need to rely on human memory, but there's now a greater requirement for people with skills to sift the wheat from the chaff. There is quite a lot of chaff
I can't recommend any books, but if I see anything I'll shout.
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Rosie Perera said:
I wouldn't have recommended it at all, or bought it myself (Kindle), if it weren't by my uncle. I've read it and found a lot in it that I disagreed with. But I think it would be appreciated by a certain subset of the Logos user community, so I suggested it. I think if he hadn't mixed the technology issue with the homosexuality issue he might have had two very good standalone books (neither of which I still might have agreed with), but the way he conflates the two issues is kind of odd in my mind, but it's central to his thesis, so there you have it. And he's an ordained Episcopal priest, so he's speaking largely to his own church, though the issues of course reach more broadly than that. (Incidentally, George Hobson did his DPhil at Oxford with Rowan Williams as his advisor, but he's quite a bit more conservative than Williams. He is also a poet and has published some interesting poems about the Rwandan Genocide in Forgotten Genocides of the 20th Century: A Compilation of Poetry and a beautiful book of his own poetry and photographs, Rumours of Hope: Reaching Out in Word And Imagination).
It's probably good practice to promote well-written and reasoned books that put forward arguments with which not everyone will agree...
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Rayner said:
It's probably good practice to promote well-written and reasoned books that put forward arguments with which not everyone will agree...
I just wish more people believed this way here.... This book is not my cup of tea but had Matthew Vines' God and the Gay Christian been mentioned I would dare say quite an uproar likely would have been raised since we were not even allowed to have Dracula. I look forward to the day controversial books come to Faithlife and people rather than complaining about the need to have them removed simply realize they can just not order the book they do not want. My apologies Rosie if it seemed to be that i implied that your uncle's book is controversial.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
My apologies Rosie if it seemed to be that i implied that your uncle's book is controversial.
No apology needed. It is indeed controversial, and I have some strong disagreements with it, but I still like to see Logos carry a brought range of books and to have people engage with ideas they disagree with and be willing to grow and change their mind, or else be able to see things from other people's point of view even while holding onto their disagreements.
Sorry if by recommending a book by a relative of mine I'm displaying a bias. I don't actually like the book, but it is well written and thoughtful and deserves a reading by at least a few people. My uncle says he hasn't heard from anyone who has actually read it (other than me and one theological friend of his, who also panned it), which is rather frustrating for him. It's worse to be ignored than to be criticized sometimes, when you're an academic. I think he feels like a very lonely voice in this particular area. Just trying to help him connect with someone who might appreciate what he's trying to say.
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Dan Francis said:Rayner said:
It's probably good practice to promote well-written and reasoned books that put forward arguments with which not everyone will agree...
I just wish more people believed this way here.... This book is not my cup of tea but had Matthew Vines' God and the Gay Christian been mentioned I would dare say quite an uproar likely would have been raised since we were not even allowed to have Dracula. I look forward to the day controversial books come to Faithlife and people rather than complaining about the need to have them removed simply realize they can just not order the book they do not want. My apologies Rosie if it seemed to be that i implied that your uncle's book is controversial.
I must confess that I wonder whether this is a US/UK cultural difference.
I get very confused about why anybody would kick up a fuss about a book like Dracula. I mean, I probably wouldn't buy it because it's a novel and not a theological work (and I would buy novels on Kindle or in paperback and not Logos), but I can't see any reason Logos shouldn't stock that particular work. I feel the same way about people that promote and encourage the reading of CS Lewis' Narnia, but refuse to let their children read JK Rowling's Harry Potter series It's as though the Dracula novel starts to function less as a novel and more as a symbol for all that is taboo. It's a yardstick concerning the measurement of how one fits into the world and whether one will associate with a company that stocks X. I am trying to think of an equivalent work that Logos might stock which would cause me to kick up a fuss... Obviously they wouldn't, but perhaps if they were to suggest stocking pornographic literature, I might start to think not only, "gosh, I won't buy that", but "is this a company with which I want to associate?". People probably just have varying tolerance levels, and I think there's a huge difference between what many US citizens would tolerate compared with European citizens.
I suppose maybe the FaithLife Dating website suggestion acted as a similar yardstick for people who wouldn't be concerned about the Dracula novel. People started to say things like, "it will devalue the focus of the brand for academic work" as well as "I think secular dating over the Internet is a very bad thing, and it wouldn't be Godly" (or whatever). Whether it would devalue the focus of the brand for academic work is simply unknown... Maybe it would, but it's about that whole "gut level" reaction of placing one "clean" thing alongside something that is perceived as "unclean", and the unclean thing then maybe "tainting" the known "clean" thing.
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Rayner said:
I suppose maybe the FaithLife Dating website suggestion acted as a similar yardstick for people who wouldn't be concerned about the Dracula novel. People started to say things like, "it will devalue the focus of the brand for academic work" as well as "I think secular dating over the Internet is a very bad thing, and it wouldn't be Godly" (or whatever). Whether it would devalue the focus of the brand for academic work is simply unknown... Maybe it would, but it's about that whole "gut level" reaction of placing one "clean" thing alongside something that is perceived as "unclean", and the unclean thing then maybe "tainting" the known "clean" thing.
I was opposed to this in theory. I have no issues with anyone operating a dating sight. I feared seeing ads for it and finding the book side of faithlife neglected. I am now going to do something I have avoided. I am an OUT proud, happily married Gay Christian. I have avoided revealing fully who I was due to the fact I did not want to start discussions which this is not the place for anyhow or personal attacks. I am a person whose faith fully affirms the Apostles/Nicene Creeds, with a deep reverence of Holy Scripture as a guide for life and primary revelation of God/God's will. I would think ultraconservatives may want works they consider heterodox (as there already are for staunch Armenians/Calvinists/Lutherans/Catholics could all find books they would declare heretical in Logos) in Logos to know their opponents in faith and affirm their defence of their faith in their own minds. We are at a point where thankfully no one puts up a fuss about the latest catholic works offered. I just hope that one day we can be at that point with all diverse offerings can be offered (now if they can ever make it out of pre pub is another question).
-Dan
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Thanks Rosie for drawing my attention to this book. I think i will like and would want to see in the Logos catalogue.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Well, Dan, I very much appreciate your input on the forum, and indeed some of the resources you've championed. My poking at the forum primarily surrounds folks that wish to manage other folks, self-selecting their own expertise. Hope to see your continued input.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dan Francis said:Rayner said:
I suppose maybe the FaithLife Dating website suggestion acted as a similar yardstick for people who wouldn't be concerned about the Dracula novel. People started to say things like, "it will devalue the focus of the brand for academic work" as well as "I think secular dating over the Internet is a very bad thing, and it wouldn't be Godly" (or whatever). Whether it would devalue the focus of the brand for academic work is simply unknown... Maybe it would, but it's about that whole "gut level" reaction of placing one "clean" thing alongside something that is perceived as "unclean", and the unclean thing then maybe "tainting" the known "clean" thing.
I was opposed to this in theory. I have no issues with anyone operating a dating sight. I feared seeing ads for it and finding the book side of faithlife neglected. I am now going to do something I have avoided. I am an OUT proud, happily married Gay Christian. I have avoided revealing fully who I was due to the fact I did not want to start discussions which this is not the place for anyhow or personal attacks. I am a person whose faith fully affirms the Apostles/Nicene Creeds, with a deep reverence of Holy Scripture as a guide for life and primary revelation of God/God's will. I would think ultraconservatives may want works they consider heterodox (as there already are for staunch Armenians/Calvinists/Lutherans/Catholics could all find books they would declare heretical in Logos) in Logos to know their opponents in faith and affirm their defence of their faith in their own minds. We are at a point where thankfully no one puts up a fuss about the latest catholic works offered. I just hope that one day we can be at that point with all diverse offerings can be offered (now if they can ever make it out of pre pub is another question).
I was luke-warm about the dating stuff, but when I saw the incredibly strong reactions it generated, it reminded me that, once again, sometimes opposition to a book (or political party, or whatever) occurs on account of unconscious cultural understanding that relates more to a given person's identity than to the contents of the specific book (or set of politics). (How many Christians actually even think about avoiding Dracula on a day to day basis?)
I'm slightly aware that we may now be veering off-topic, but I have taken a look at the Christian discourse website and fled due to the realisation that the standard of discussion is considerably higher on these forums. I commend you for your honesty. I don't think these forums are places free from personal attacks and I hope everybody continues to remain respectful. I've no doubt there are plenty of LGBT Christian Logos users who will, in time, request resources that might not fit in with everybody's confessional requirements. Why wouldn't there be? It's a great product. Indeed, opening Logos to wider markets eg. Australia and Europe will likely (hopefully) lead to a broadening of acceptable material. I imagine Faithlife are probably very aware that their core users are right-leaning US Evangelicals and remain sensitive to their requests.
I'm really impressed by the Gender and the Bible collection - https://www.logos.com/product/5728/gender-and-the-bible-collection, hence my suggestion that the book Rosie suggested could easily form part of a Sexuality and the Bible collection which could comprise a whole bunch of different resources, including the one you suggested earlier. For thoroughness, it should have diverse authors eg. William Countryman as well as Robert Gagnon etc.0 -
It takes time in an online community to develop a culture of respect, and I believe we've done that over time with great patience. There are always new folks who drop in and don't understand the atmosphere we've created here and try to spoil things (or do it inadvertently), but they either leave soon enough or learn to cooperate. Dan I'm glad you felt safe posting what you did. You are courageous. Not all will agree with your choice to open up about that here or to live the way you to, but God bless you. We need the perspectives of all, and I hope any who feel otherwise will keep negative comments to themselves. There is a place for debate or loving admonition but public online spaces are not where those can be accomplished. And fear or judgment are never called for nor helpful. You would not like my uncle's book, I'm sure. My brother who is gay read it and felt misunderstood and judged.
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