If I had a million dollars (to grow Logos Bible Software)...
Comments
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I know one thing that could potentially be very attractive to many people who could be future purchasers of Logos.
1- While Logos offers many packages, the one common thread I have heard when sharing the packages with Bible College students is that there are so many resources that are not going to be used. Many would like just one or two good Original Language resources and all the Bibles, Commentaries and Church History related materials as a great Student starter package.
Currently a lot of the top Church History items are in the high priced packages, same with many commentaries and I've heard a lot about the redundancy of sermon/preaching resources as well as OL resources. These are resources that the common response is that would be things purchased after they get deeper into Bible College or starting in ministry.
Personally I can see some of this in my own decisions on to upgrade or not to upgrade. Early Church Fathers which is a great resource for a student and all believers is not available until you get to Silver. Most students and common users do not have a church budget for books/software, thus making this above realistic investment at the time.
Is there a package that can be created that would eliminate a lot of the "fluff" resources and give less resource but all basics built on bibles/commentaries/history/apologetics type resources???
Investing the money in this kind of package could open the door to a lot more people who look at the other resources like OL and Sermon/Preaching as fluff or above their needs, some even scared off by it...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Jon Rumble said:Joe Miller said:
4. Website improvements to ensure pre-pubs and all orders can be downloaded with L4 and no more requirements to ship. Also integrating POS options for locked books into the L4 UI.
5. Hire part time web developer/moderator just for the Forum ( and wiki) which is a large part of the Logos support strategy and needs some attention.
I think it would be worth spending the entire $1 million (or more) to completely redevelop your websites. The way I see it, your website is your shopfront and at present it is functional but ugly - 'busy-ness', colour coordination, font selection and consistency, lack of graphics.
When purchasing bible software I'm sure people take into account all sorts of factors - and hopefully fully explore the capabilities of the program - but first impressions are very important! To be sure it could be a whole lot worse (gramcord.org) but it could also be a lot better! The marketing material like the videos is very slick and well done, I think the website needs the same treatment. As a sort of thought experiment; put your feet in the shoes of Jo Lay-Christian -a very large market- go to logos.com and the website for the very recently released program aimed at this market.. what do you think? On the one hand some of the web based stuff Logos is doing (library.logos.com, cloud syncing) is cutting edge and revolutionary.... ... but some money needs to go into the design side of things too
As well as the aesthetic improvements, I think it would be worth investigating web-based mechanisms like formal bug reporting, support systems that allow for submitting support tickets online (depending on how you currently manage your customer support it could have some follow through cost savings), a better forum platform.
That's my 2 cents...
I also think that a better web presence would be worth an investment. The website is currently not on a par with the program.
And I understand the difficult hard costs involved in help and customer service. Logos has built up an incredible cadre of users who are happy to help new customers. Leverage that. To be blunt: the current forum is horrible for serious help. The search function is very inferior, and the lack of multiple fora makes it almost impossible to find anything. After I run a couple of (usually useless) searches, I simply (re)post my question. How much could vBulletin cost? It is (for example) far more robust, and searchable. You could even further leverage user base help by giving credits for4 new material for time spent on the forum answering questions.
I would continue to expand to base markets. While an individual resource might be excellent (and I might clamor for it), what will it actually mean in terms of new business? I would LOVE Patrologica Graeca or Loebs, but really, how many users is that going to bring? Are gobs of Classicists (if that many even exist, speaking as a former one) going to buy Logos instead of use Perseus? I think not. So maybe a better way to link into Perseus via the web (at less cost) is better. Would you really want to focus the company's future on doing everything to bring Mac platform up to speed? It might be nice, but it is still 2-5% of the computer market in the US, and almost zero in emerging markets (China, India).
No way would I pay anyone to watch a video. If you really want seminary distribution, give a significant discount to a seminary student who sends you a new customer. Same for profs and pastors.
By the way, Bob, I like that you are thinking about this. It only make sense to step away from the current tasks to look to the future.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Frank Sauer said:
Is there a package that can be created that would eliminate a lot of the "fluff" resources and give less resource but all basics built on bibles/commentaries/history/apologetics type resources???
How about an alternative pricing mechanism -- in addition to predefined packages like we have now, allow for an "a la carte" discount e.g. when you purchase > $x of resources OR > y number of resources at original price, you get a certain % of discount.
Peter
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My two cents would be a $50 base package or a massively free package that includes several public domain books, even if the public domain books are already available as a paid resource through Logos. This makes Logos more of a workable demo. You may not be able to do "x" with this book (like you could if you had the full version) but you can do "y".
I live in a rural area. I am an ambassador for Logos. I get hit with the I use the other software because it is free or it is cheaper.
Maybe Logos could do something completely non-Logos software related with a million dollars? Give a matching donation (with Logos users) to an important cause or causes.
Print a Logos Cook-off Cook book...maybe use some Logos user recipes (or at least give us an extra Bible Study Magazine edition with all the recipes).
all about Christ,
David Buckham0 -
From reading everyone else's post made me do some thinking:
1. The ideas of a bible study institute I really like. I don't have the time or money to go to seminary. Most of the learning I have to do is either done on my own or online. I've taken several online classes and really enjoyed them. I am waiting for the videos for using Logos to study greek and hebrew to be completed. If you could also produce videos/classes on different topics like Inductive bible study/bible study methods would be great. I would also like to see some on sermon preparation. There are many of us preaching that have not had the opportunity to get formal education in these areas and would welcome any help we can get. I would rather learn how to use Logos to accomplish this as that's where most of my resources and don't want to learn inductive bible study and then try to figure out how to do that in Logos, learning at the same time would be great.
2. Create a user generated content area for sharing sermons/notes/lessons ect. There are many websites for sermons/templates for ppt ect. If Logos had an area where users could share content they generate then we could help each other (much like this forum). make it with the ability to share notes/outlines ect right from Logos and then be able to search the user generated content from within Logos.
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Oh yea, I think someone already mentioned it but create a book store much like Apple's app store for the iPhone. This would allow user to create/write books using PBB (once it works with Logos 4) and the submit them and have them sold in the book store. You could do a split much like apple does with developers. While this might now be a great revenue generator it would cause people to get Logos just to get the book store ability. Apple's main use for the App store is to get people to buy iPhone/iPod touch. As more users started using Logos that would mean more potential customers for Logos created books.
Churches could also use it to create digital versions of lesson plans/study/books for their members. You could then start subscriptions (i.e. Bible Study magazine) for periodicals or Churches could have a small subscription fee to get digital copies of sermon notes/lesson plans for their services. Again, while this in itself might not be a great revenue generator it would get more people using Logos. Especially if you have a very basic base package (6 bibles, 5 basic commentaries, strongs) with a very minimal number of resources. The average believer doesn't necessarily use a lot of the resources you have. price point about $25.00. If they wanted more resources they could purchase them. With the additional basic users it would create a larger audience for the Bible study institute/video lessons. As they began to use Logos more they would want to know how do I study the bible with logos? inductive bible study. Lesson preparation for home cell groups/Sunday school teachers. Practical application of doing word studies with Logos. All the lesson would need some practical application and lesson assignments. Walk them through building a bible study on prayer from start to finish and them have them build another study on their own (assignment). You could eventually grow this into an online school. I'd love to go to one of Morris Proctor's seminars but they can be limited. the closest one to me is about 4 hours away. It's also during the week and at a critical time at work where I can't take the time off. This means I a have to wait 6 months to a year to where it would be close enough and cost effective for me to attend. I know he has the videos of the seminars but I don't really want videos of a seminar. I'd rather have structured lessons.
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StephenWeasler said:
Create a user generated content area for sharing sermons/notes/lessons ect.
Do you know that sermons are already sharable and that there have been indications that more user-generated content will be sharable? In the past some as been shared in the files forum. StillTruth provides a common download site but there have been previous suggestions that this fuction be taken over by Logos. You are not alone in your wishes.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I know I am repeating, but here they are anyway:
- Have a strategic team to research and stay on top of alternative and new delivery methods - IPhone, Kindle, Linux, Apple Tablet, Blackberry, smartphones etc. I think the Mac roll out is going far too slow and seems to have been an afterthought.
- Deliver via online subscription service. Great for those who may not have the internal computing or network (ie download) capacity, those who want to easily access from different computers (work, home, travel) or those who just prefer cloud computing and the advantages that come with it. Gives the ability to "rent" resources instead of having to commit to them. Offer a 30-day free online trial. Great way to test drive.
- Different package options including a lower end package. Not everyone needs 1,000 resources to do their study. It can make it very daunting for some. I realize there are already a number of packages, but I found it overwhelming/confusing to try to figure out which ones.
- Offer lower-cost packages/sponsorship for qualified students, seminaries and missionaries. Could be under "bulk" licensing.
- Expand non-English resources - Chinese, Russian etc.
- I would like to have my seminary text books in Logos so I can use them for the course and then for future reference.
- Create a good note taking and lesson and sermon preparation module. Many are studying the Bible to use it in their work/ministry, so give them the tools to do so efficiently.
- Consider other multi-media that would also be useful for pastors of small churches, church-planters, missionaries or traveling teachers
who could use an all-in-one resource to create all of their bulletins, handouts, presentation materials, worship etc. I realize that these are at the core of Logos, but I am sure many Logos customers could use them.Stephen
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Mostly, I appreciate your direct contact with the user! I have been with Logos since the earliest floppies became available--and I enjoy demonstrating its capabilities for others and recommending it. I haven't felt like the promo videos do much for the non-user. What they ask for is less expensive (and in reality, less expansive) packages: "I just want to be able to read and search the Bible and a few basic tools." discounted offers or upgrades work wonders, at least they have for me as well as for those in my Logos circle.
I appreciate the voluminous list of resources (and of course want more), but even a few hundred books becomes rather overwhelming. Focus on making it as affordable as possible and for attracting new users, basic. Thanks for the greatest product on the market.
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In my opinion the best way to attract new users, is to have a basic package that is free, so users can see what they get when they buy a package. Just include some public domain resources, that are also in other bible-studie-software packages that you can download from the internet for free (like E-Sword). So include at least:
- KJV (and in each language at least one public domain bible translation)
- A public domain Greek and Hebrew text
- Strongs dictionary
- Some free images / timelines / etc (just a few, so users can get an idea, with the message "you get plenty more when you buy one of our packages)
- Maybe a small public domain bible dictionary and a small commentary, so users can get an idea of how those work in Logos
I think it wouldn't cost you a million bucks to offer, but I believe it will attract a lot of new buyers.
Another idea is, to create an "upgrade adviser". Just a long list with all the books that are included in all the packages. Let the user select (with a checkbox) the books he want to buy, and let the "upgrade adviser" calculate the worth of the books when bought seperate, and advise the best fitting package.
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I would,
- Expand Logos' presence on the forums. Hire an ombudsman who's responsibility is to quickly react to customers on the forum. This person would also be able to attend planning meetings to help represent the pulse of the customer base. (I'm not saying Logos doesn't do this wonderfully already, but as your company grows it will probably get harder and harder.)
- Make a free package (as suggested elsewhere on this thread) to remove the "I can get it free elsewhere" mentality of the lay market
- Come out with a $20 to $50 package of quality, under copyright works that can be used to make a case for paying for higher quality information and transition into the existing packages.
- Expand marketing to professors, create tools that can be used to get primary texts into Logos with a collaborative processes to get the cost of said text down. The work gets started by volunteers (professors and other interested parties) and gets finished/quality checked by Logos.
Prov. 15:23
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StephenWeasler said:
Oh yea, I think someone already mentioned it but create a book store much like Apple's app store for the iPhone.
That was me. iPhone apps are so popular because they are easy to get. iTunes music/videos/etc are so often purchased because doing so is seemless and pretty darn close to thoughtless.
Logos purchasing on the other hand is far from this. Make purchasing out of L4 and out of the iPhone app a more integrated experience. For students, simply put the academic pricing in there. There should be no need to call customer support to purchase books. I hate calling in, but I often have to, simply to take advantage of the academic discount. This is a waste of my time (leading me sometimes to just not buy the book due to inconvenience) and certainly a much more expensive waste of your time.It takes academic sales 5-15 minutes for me to purchase a single book (often <$50). You can't be making money on that deal. Spend a little to generate sales and make customer service all that more unnecessary. As I've said before, I know a number of people who own Logos base package but have never purchsed another book because they didn't know how or couldn't figure it out. Missing out on a huge revenue stream.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Here's what I'd do:
- Spend a good chunk of money on recruiting excellent R&D specialists and biblical scholars. Logos 4 is full of features I didn't know I needed and wouldn't have asked for.
- As many others have said, make the entry point lower. Now the forums are up and running properly, you can support non-paying (or even low-paying) customers through this site. I'd lower the entry point by:
Making it more obvious that you can download/install desktop Logos for free, with the 30-odd books you get on the iPhone version. I'd have this as a 'base package'. - Employing someone to create/run a PBB market. People could submit PBB files to logos.com, where they could be reviewed, etc. You could do some very simple quality control, and avoid duplicate resources and competing resources. All these community created resources would be free to download.
- Creating a lower-priced entry level package at around $100 with less resources.
Provide better, visible customer support. Your support is excellent, but its not always visibly excellent. I'd create a team whose job it was to publicly 'connect' with customers. Basically, it would enhance the great value of this forum:
Two members of staff in different timezones to answer questions in this forum.
People to develop more publicly accountable means of making Logos better. For example, a voting site to vote for new books to encourage Logos and possibly put pressure on publishers. Or creating a more accessible list of bug fixes. Or a site which shows what's happened to our typo reports, and when resources were updated.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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There has been some discussion about how much cheaper than at present the entry level package should be. Personally, I am strongly of the opinion that the best way for Logos to be used by more people ... especially if one of the aims is reach the average person sitting in the pew ... is for the entry option to be free. I say this knowing that this will probably be bad news for eSword, which I have a soft spot for, because it was the first Bible study software I ever used.
Actually, this was how I first used Logos-3: I "purchased" a free book (the Gospel Coalition documents) ... and downloaded the free Logos engine. I would never buy software I wasn't sure would run on my computer - especially over the internet, and I suspect I'm not alone in this. It was only because I had seen eSword that I had an inkling of what Logos would be able to do ... therefore I eventually plunged for the Original Languages base-product, as I thought this would best support my academic research.
This target group, however, will not have this academic motivation ... and may not have experience of eSword ... so how would they know they could benefit from Logos, unless there was a free version to play with? Logos shouldn't have to build its user base on the assumption that people know eSword!!
A few select basic public-domain documents (creeds, commentaries, dictionaries) (like one has on e-Sword) - or ones totally owned by Logos - should be given away with a couple of popular Bibles, so that someone could learn to love Logos ... and want the better resources. I agree with an earlier commentator, better integration of "sales" with L4 should make this migration into being a purchaser of L4 resources as painless as possible for the user.
Then there should be an attractive general user base-package for somewhere between $10 and $30; to capture those who think that anything worth having has to be bought. This only has to have a relatively small number of desirable popular resources not in the free version.
That is how I would like to see the $1 million spent for the growth of Logos.
This on a modern e-Reader could really capture a large market.
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Wow -- all this feedback is fantastic. I really appreciate it!
Since so many of you have mentioned free or less-expensive starter packages, I'd like to comment on it.
We've tried a variety of trial versions, starter packs, and very inexpensive starter versions. (Granted, some of these experiments were many years ago.) Our experience is that offering free products identifies people who like free things. Offering $20 products identifies people who'll spend $20. Few (if any) of these people ever upgrade.
Offering a $250+ package identifies people who care enough to invest "real money", and they come back and upgrade, buy more books, etc. at a much higher rate.
The e-Sword web site, for example, advertises 9 million downloads. To the best of my knowledge, e-Sword is one guy, Rick Meyers, who works at home. Rick seems like a great guy, and it sounds like he has a great time and provides a wonderful tool for millions of people.
But building and supporting Logos takes 175+ people. We don't serve anywhere near 9 million people, but we're able to deliver more books, more features, more support, etc. -- and feed the big team that requires.
Of course, nine million users sounds great. So we do keep experimenting with free low end stuff. http://bible.logos.com is free, and the Logos iPhone app offers 31 books simply for registering. In three months our iPhone app has had a number of downloads equal to three years of new customers for our desktop software. And some of those people have bought Logos 4.
But the total sales volume of new users found via the free iPhone app hasn't yet covered our iPhone development costs.
So keep the ideas coming -- including the ideas of how to make free / freemium work -- but feel free to also send ideas on how to find more people willing to invest in a real (and real useful) digital library. :-)
Or how to offer even more compelling value to our existing "serious" (and funny, clever, handsome) user base: you.
-- Bob
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I have a couple of questions based on Bob's comments. How many of you Logos users also have one of the free programs like E-Sword or The Word???
I know that I own Logos today because I first saw the usefulness of electronic bible study through E-Sword and the Online Bible. Those programs gave me the idea that this idea of electronic bible study was worth paying to get the resources that I could only get through Logos.
If I had ever seen a free Logos program and could have started out with a program like Logos 2 or 3, I would have started spending money on more resources sooner. The way things were I was afraid to try Logos, what if I didn't like it???
How many of you Logos users have ever seen a free Logos program and package?
How many of you would love to be able to hand a free Logos 3 or 4 program and a small package to one or more of your friends?
Now the truth is I think this attacks only part of the problem that we are faced with today. The main problem is actually that the average believer does not understand how much a bible software can help him to understand the Word of God, I am all for a limited give away, for people to use. Currently I use The Word and give out 100's of copies each year, but I also show people how to use the program, and that is what sells them on bible study. Muybiggest problem currently is getting believers that are using the Word to convert to Logos. The Word is a very good program and after getting started using it, most people want to keep using what they are comfortable with. If I could start people out on a small but free Logos package, they would not have to change, they would only have to be shown all the resourcs that Logos carries and start adding to the package they already have. Logos would have a life time friend and they would have a system they would never out grow.
The way things are now, the Word works so well and they are so comfortable with it that they are afraid to change and start putting money into products they have never used.
If you really want to sell more Logos programs people have to be shown what it can really do and be allowed to try it out for a very small investment or none at all.
For now I will keep giving The Word away and teaching believers how to use it. There must be nearly 1000 modules on line for it now, and it does bible and book searches has a note taking feature, allows you to put your own public domain books in it and search them, and hyper-link references, you can also make your own collection groups. Oh and you can save your layouts!
It is not near the level of Logos, in function or resources, but it isn't no E-Sword or Online Bible either. Until Logos gives me a tool to compete with it, I will have to use the tool I have to introduce members of the body to electronic bible study!
In Christ,
Jim
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JimVanSchoonhoven said:
If you really want to sell more Logos programs people have to be shown what it can really do and be allowed to try it out for a very small investment or none at all.
An additional observation of this. Logos' resources are aimed primarily at "evangelicals" (I use the term loosely) and scholars despite their pairing with Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish presses. As a Catholic, I have available software from the Vatican (free), a multi-edition Vulgate package (also free), and a very inexpensive apologetics and faith formation package. Some of these resources I have converted to PBB's to have them in Logos ... others I continue to use the side packages.
I would recommend Logos to any fellow parishioner with an interest in or knowledge of Greek and/or Hebrew. For the others, I would always steer them first to one of the free packages not because of price but because of the resources available with them. I would always refer to Logos as a superior product which they might wish to invest in eventually.
Example of resources - free package: Vulgata Clementina, Douay-Rheims, Crampon, Louis Segond, Glossa Ordinaria, New Vulgate, Stuttgart Vulgate and Whitaker's Words. I chose this particular example because I expect that Logos will move more into the Latin, given their Aramaic, Syriac and Coptic resources. [and, yes, 2 Vulgates and the Douay-Rheims are available.] Because of Logos software's strength and integration, I hope they move me off these side packages quickly - I've already dropped a couple packages and rejected one after a very short trial.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob,
Just a thought on these previous experiments you've done regarding Free/Discounted packages. When I first signed up to Logos many years ago it was because you offered a resource I couldn't get elsewhere (I was at the time using PC Study Bible). I later bought Pradis to get additional resources. In other words in the days when you ran your experiment there wasn't much to choose between the different packages apart from price and the resources themselves.
Now, things are a bit different. Many people no longer see Bible software as a means to reading/searching a resource. Whole new 'non-serious' markets are opening up (think Illumina and Glo). People actually want to know what the software is like, and at entry-level the software itself is more important that the resources. That wasn't true 10 years ago.
If Logos was to offer a free-base package with the same resources as the free iPhone version, I do believe it would significantly increase sales. If nothing else, it would provide a demo for other customers who are considering purchasing Logos but want to know what it's really like before spending several hundred dollars. I wouldn't expect there to be massive upgrade sales, it's only cost you the bandwidth costs.
Some suggestions of converting non-paying customers to paying customers. If you did all of these people would feel nagged, so I'm suggesting you choose from these:
- Offering a limited trial of pay-for features of Logos 4 from within the program (I'm thinking Biblical People etc.)
- For the first ten weeks after install, sending a weekly "How to get the most out of your new software" email to new customers, that concentrates on what you can do for free, but adds a small section on what extra you can do if you upgrade.
- Changing the homepage for free users, which from time to time displays upgrade links with benefits clearly explained. Several times a year these should be discounted.
- Using the log of the searches etc. people do (assuming they don't turn on the privacy option) to recommend specific paid resources or packages within the program.
- Create some videos which explain the benefits of upgrading between each base package.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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your suggestion fits,my needs ,specialy in the case of the inductive study method.
Blessings in Christ.
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Bob,
Thanks so much for your continual interest in what we, your customers, think and want.
I love Logos and have used it fo many years and have gotten other people involved. I would have gotten more involved, but the cost is the major thing. You may have used "free" products in the past to get more users to your software, but how many of us knew about them? Somehow I missed it or otherwise would have been handing them out to friends and students. One major way to increase your customer base will be to have a cheaper beginner level product. I would suggest under $50. It doesn't have to have massive programs, but it would need to have quality. So include a Bible, such as the ESV or NAS95, a concordance, and a good commentary on the whole Bible. And include your latest map set. This would be enough for us to show others how easy it is to use software to do some serious Bible study.
Also I would suggest you use the money to get all the pre-pubs ready and shipped. Along these lines I would suggest you not offering more pre-pubs, until you catch up! I know, I can't believe I am saying this, as I love most of what you offer. BUT even though I have been a major supporter of Logos and Pre-pubs, presently it is becoming "too many" to choose from. Thus I am having to choose less, in order to "cover" what I have already ordered. You are spreading yourself too thin, and the customers are being overwhelmed with the massive Pre-pubs coming our way.
I would also suggest that you get PBB working for Logos 4 and then hire some faithful Logos users to get the "free domain" books available to the public in this format at a lower price and you spend your efforts with newer books.
Another way to develop your customer base is to make sure that the present customers understand how the program works. It is great that you offer the videos on the different aspects of the program, but many of us are visual learners and need a written manual to refer to; something that we could quickly look up a feature, without having to go online and try to find out the appropriate video or solution. I appreciate what Morris is providing through his manuals, but they are too expensive even apart from shipping. I would suggest that you spend money on developing manuals that can be downloaded as part of the program itself. Then as we (your long time customers) know how to use the program effectively, then we can get others involved. The best advertising has always been word of mouth.
And of couse continue opening up other venues of accessing your books, such as Kindle, etc.
And as previously mentioned, update your web site and forums. The forum is too difficult to find answers to problems that have been previously. The searches attempted often have nothing to do with the problem at hand. Thus another reason to have a downloaded manual, one that can be constantly updated, as new features are being added.
Thanks again, Bob, for all that you are doing. Your hard work is making a difference in many lives!
Charlene
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Bob Pritchett said:
Wow -- all this feedback is fantastic. I really appreciate it!
Since so many of you have mentioned free or less-expensive starter packages, I'd like to comment on it.
We've tried a variety of trial versions, starter packs, and very inexpensive starter versions. (Granted, some of these experiments were many years ago.) Our experience is that offering free products identifies people who like free things. Offering $20 products identifies people who'll spend $20. Few (if any) of these people ever upgrade.
Offering a $250+ package identifies people who care enough to invest "real money", and they come back and upgrade, buy more books, etc. at a much higher rate.
The e-Sword web site, for example, advertises 9 million downloads. To the best of my knowledge, e-Sword is one guy, Rick Meyers, who works at home. Rick seems like a great guy, and it sounds like he has a great time and provides a wonderful tool for millions of people.
But building and supporting Logos takes 175+ people. We don't serve anywhere near 9 million people, but we're able to deliver more books, more features, more support, etc. -- and feed the big team that requires.
Of course, nine million users sounds great. So we do keep experimenting with free low end stuff. http://bible.logos.com is free, and the Logos iPhone app offers 31 books simply for registering. In three months our iPhone app has had a number of downloads equal to three years of new customers for our desktop software. And some of those people have bought Logos 4.
But the total sales volume of new users found via the free iPhone app hasn't yet covered our iPhone development costs.
So keep the ideas coming -- including the ideas of how to make free / freemium work -- but feel free to also send ideas on how to find more people willing to invest in a real (and real useful) digital library. :-)
Or how to offer even more compelling value to our existing "serious" (and funny, clever, handsome) user base: you.
-- Bob
I agree. Freebies every once in a while are good, but too many freebies and it tends to degrade your product.
I think that the reason that fewer than expected people have bought into L4 from the iPhone app is because the upgrade is not intuitive, and buying more books is very difficult and would involve learning an entirely new paradigm. If books could be purchased from within the app, it would probably generate more sales.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Bob,
I think the market is changing with regards to e-books. The introduction of the Kindle (and other e-readers) and the upcoming iBook on the iPad seems to be convincing people that ebooks are a viable alternative to print. My attitudes towards e-books have changed a lot since I bought Scholars back in '02. I think another trial run at a free/cheap package might be appropriate.
Prov. 15:23
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One variation on the free/low-cost approach is to offer once a day, or even once a week, a specific title/collection (of books, not base package) at a discount (maybe between 25% and 90%, depending on the item). I know at least one of your competitors does this, and I have purchased a few, only because they're not available in Logos and so inexpensive. For example, a $10 title could be sold for between $1 and $7.50, and so on.
Personally, as much as I would like to support Logos more by buying every title I'm interested in, good stewardship requires me to target package deals where I can get titles for around $5-6/volume or less, and/or wait for major upgrades like the recent offer for Platinum. I've made a few exceptions for textbooks I need for seminary, but even there, I would have tended to get all my textbooks that are available in Logos for a class if they could be offered as a package, or "buy 5, get ___% off". That might not be feasible due to initial costs/publisher agreements. And I'll be done with seminary in the next year, so it won't be as relevant for me, but for people like my brother who starts seminary in the fall.
I live in an apartment, so our bookshelf space is maxed out. Electronic books are ideal for reference/commentary series - space-saving, convenience, speed, etc. But, due to limitations of reading on a laptop or computer screen for long periods of time (ergonomics more than eye strain), I've avoided buying books "to read", which are a different category to me than reference books (commentaries, textbooks, or books included in a base package). I would buy from Logos, because you've had a long track record, compared to many of the new e-reader companies which are still in the experimental stage.
Library.logos.com is one option I've started using (to access a few of those textbooks and read on my phone), but since there's no Windows Mobile app, the reading experience can be frustrating. As much as I'd like to get an iPod Touch/iPad/iPhone, the
initial/recurring costs especially for the last two devices would be
way too high for me. So it's either wait for tablet PC w/ keyboard prices to hit sub-$500, wait for a Windows Mobile app, or stick with what I have and not add new "for reading" books for a while. I guess another possibility is to see if library.logos.com evolves on a par with the desktop program, and then I could consider a more basic reading device (something with a bigger screen than my phone but very basic). I'm guessing eventually the website access to books would have to be a subscription-model service, though?Thanks for listening to all our feedback! You have a great company, excellent customer service, and I anticipate eagerly how you will continue to innovate and provide valuable ministry resources. I've greatly enjoyed the Logos 4 experience, as well, and am excited about how it continues to develop.
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Charlene said:
You may have used "free" products in the past to get more users to your software, but how many of us knew about them?
Charlene,(don't feel too bad) I believe Bob has to be talking almost 15 years ago, and in computer stuff that is a "lifetime" ago.
I also agree with the comment that in terms of competition back then, all of the few companies seemed to be trying to "re-invent" the same "wheel."
But it was one of those "freer" starter packs that introduced me.
And the one that "hooked" me forever was the Logos-Nelson ("green colored?) 100 book unlock in the $10-20 range. That CD convinced me as to just what Logos could really do. It had a nice mix of commentary, dictionary, language etc I gave one of them to a family member AND both of us have upgraded "big-time" since then.
It can work.
Regards, SteveF
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Please permit me comment again on some of this.
Lower entry point for the more "casual" student of the word.
Yes those lower entry packages may not buy more books, but even if they buy the package once, that's an investment that represents revenue. The question I can't answer is: does $250 really equal the minimum that will at least pay for the employees involved? If it does I can say no more. If not, what does?Bob Pritchett said:
We've tried a variety of trial versions, starter packs, and very inexpensive starter versions. (Granted, some of these experiments were many years ago.) Our experience is that offering free products identifies people who like free things. Offering $20 products identifies people who'll spend $20. Few (if any) of these people ever upgrade.
Offering a $250+ package identifies people who care enough to invest "real money", and they come back and upgrade, buy more books, etc. at a much higher rate.
I wonder if there's a sweet spot somewhere between 20 and 250? I have no doubt you were vastly summarizing the research you've done. But several times I've wanted to buy a starter set for a pastor to get him interested in Logos; the cost prohibits me. What I did once was to purchase what used to be a $50 NASB only package from the NASB editors and give it to a fellow pastor friend who still uses that same package. The reason he hasn't upgraded to more books isn't because he doesn't see the value of them; but largely because he doesn't get how to use the program. That flaw in training has largely been overcome with the addition of the videos for L4 which are, as I understand, now included in a DVD in the box.
Keep in mind that integrating purchasing ability INTO the program will automatically generate a revenue stream. All of the app stores out there kind of demonstrate that pretty well.Digital Bible Institute
Kevin A. Purcell said:What I would like to see someone do ... and you have the resources to do it ... is create a digital Bible study institute. Sort of like a Bible college but focusing on how to study in the modern age.
Well not exactly Bohuslav... Logos already has an under-marketed partnership along this path.Bohuslav Wojnar said:It's very interesting idea. Having long time experience with the Global University, I can say there is a market for that. But it would take Logos to an entirely different area of operation.
Moody Bible Institutes Distance Learning Program now has a program like that which uses Logos. Perhaps the answer to this opportunity is to invest further into that already existing partnership.
Moody AM is a Logos Product which forms the first half of that digital bible institute.Right now I do not believe a degree is attached to the program but I see no reason why under their existing accreditation a degree program could not be developed.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
For the first time in many years I see that there is a chance for a real change in the body of Christ, and how we train one another and our leaders. I hope Logos can be a leader in this change!
With the current level of research ability and the resources that can be found in Logos 4, we have a way of training each person in a fellowship group to the level that even pastors would love to be trained to. One of the draw backs at this time is still a lack of vision to see what is possible and enough people that really understand how to use Logos or any electronic bible study program, so they can train others to use Logos or another program, but that day is coming when that will be over come, although it may or may not be Logos they use.
For example people may or may not be aware of what is going on along these new educational lines, but here is an example. The church of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa has already put out a CD of The Word bible study program with over 600 free resources on it for free. They have also already had their first big event where people could come to the fellowship, get a free CD and learn how to use the program right there at the fellowship!!!
They are currently getting ready to have another big meeting on how to use The Word bible study program in Febuary that will be streamed on the internet and also posted for free on Youtube. You can see the annoucement here http://forum.theword.gr/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1583 Can you imagine the impact this would have on the future of Logos, if they were giving away free Logos programs instead of the Word program!!!
One of their pastors Doug Hamp has a web page that deals with the Word http://thefirstsixdays.com/TheWordBibleSoftware.htm if Logos is interested in what the future could be in electronic bible study and how the local church may use it someone should get in contact with these guys and see what is going on.
Along these same lines, I personally am using electronic bible study programs to show members of the local fellowships that I attend how to educate everyone and everyone how to study at levels never seen before.
On top of that I have taught several elders from near bible churches how to use the Word and it is changing their lives, they can not believe the research they can do, without going back to school, they can learn right where they live! Of course they do not get a degree, but they are more interested in what they can learn than in getting a degree. These elder have caught on and are giving out free programs to members of their fellowships although they have not gone the next step of showing the members how to use the free programs, right now I end up doing that.
At the present time it is these free packages that allow these programs to get started, but none of these programs have either the features of Logos or the resources of Logos, but they have enough features and resources to change how people learn and they also allow anyone anywhere to start learning at a level only dreamed of before!
In Christ,
Jim
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I can appreciate that for the most part the cost involved in obtaining something is directly connected to how much "value" a person places on it - so some how you've got to change the value proposition to more than just - here is a different way to look at some text on a screen. If that is all I considered Logos to be (effectively a glorified pdf reader) then there is no way I would consider forking out the sort of money I have and plan to continue doing so. In actually fact - I understand Logos to be a tool by which I can tap into the inspired word of God not only for my own edification but to pass on to others -which brings me to that other big trend in IT these past few years - social media.
I think it has come through fairly clearly in this thread that the primary motivation in for suggesting lower entry options is not to help the company called Logos grow (as much as we like and appreciate you all) - but rather to see individuals we are ministering to in one form or another grow in their own faith and learn to how to better feed themselves spiritually. So in a sense, providing lower cost bundles (assuming they have sufficient functionality) is still playing to your primary market who are also your most powerful advocates and end user training personnel.
Consider this scenario. I'm speaking to someone or they make contact with me regarding some spiritual issue they are grappling with - I can provide some immediate counsel, pray with them, encourage them but I can also promise to follow up with them. BAck at my computer I can prepare a package of suggested readings or notes that I believe will be helpful for them - a click a button or attach the package to an email and sent it out to them - they're able to open it in their version of the software and add their own notes or questions which they could choose to send back to me for further comment.
Or how about, a bible study group that has a shared note file along with a discussion forum so that interaction can continue all the week through. Particularly in this scenario I seems appropriate to expect some financial contribution - I see little difference to this type of thing versus telling everyone "Hey we're doing a study on ____ and the study guide book is going to cost $x - except the possible ongoing impact of giving people access to a tool as powerful as Logos is worth far more than that one off packaged study with DVDs.
Anything, that Logos can do the streamlines my workflow to allow me to be a better discipler of men, women and children gets my vote.
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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JimVanSchoonhoven said:
For the first time in many years I see that there is a chance for a real change in the body of Christ, and how we train one another and our leaders. I hope Logos can be a leader in this change!
With the current level of research ability and the resources that can be found in Logos 4, we have a way of training each person in a fellowship group to the level that even pastors would love to be trained to. One of the draw backs at this time is still a lack of vision to see what is possible and enough people that really understand how to use Logos or any electronic bible study program, so they can train others to use Logos or another program, but that day is coming when that will be over come, although it may or may not be Logos they use.
For example people may or may not be aware of what is going on along these new educational lines, but here is an example. The church of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa has already put out a CD of The Word bible study program with over 600 free resources on it for free. They have also already had their first big event where people could come to the fellowship, get a free CD and learn how to use the program right there at the fellowship!!!
They are currently getting ready to have another big meeting on how to use The Word bible study program in Febuary that will be streamed on the internet and also posted for free on Youtube. You can see the annoucement here http://forum.theword.gr/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1583 Can you imagine the impact this would have on the future of Logos, if they were giving away free Logos programs instead of the Word program!!!
One of their pastors Doug Hamp has a web page that deals with the Word http://thefirstsixdays.com/TheWordBibleSoftware.htm if Logos is interested in what the future could be in electronic bible study and how the local church may use it someone should get in contact with these guys and see what is going on.
Along these same lines, I personally am using electronic bible study programs to show members of the local fellowships that I attend how to educate everyone and everyone how to study at levels never seen before.
On top of that I have taught several elders from near bible churches how to use the Word and it is changing their lives, they can not believe the research they can do, without going back to school, they can learn right where they live! Of course they do not get a degree, but they are more interested in what they can learn than in getting a degree. These elder have caught on and are giving out free programs to members of their fellowships although they have not gone the next step of showing the members how to use the free programs, right now I end up doing that.
At the present time it is these free packages that allow these programs to get started, but none of these programs have either the features of Logos or the resources of Logos, but they have enough features and resources to change how people learn and they also allow anyone anywhere to start learning at a level only dreamed of before!
In Christ,
Jim
Jim - I appreciate your heart for training people, and I have a few questions.
Something that I have found is that 1) I like computers, so an electronic (local install) or web-based bible study program just makes sense, whereas my wife may never use something beyond bible.logos.com. So I don't know if lack of a free program/free resources, or dislike of using your computer for Bible study is a bigger obstacle for people. Also because of those who can't/won't afford a laptop, it would be hard for some churches to have a training session (or series) like you describe. I'm not saying it's impossible, but aren't there more obstacles to broad acceptance of electronic Bible study than merely the cost of software or electronic books?
Also, 2) Bible study takes work and time, regardless of whether you use printed materials or electronic. The tools (ie search functions) cannot substitute for reading, rereading, and thinking about the Bible text. While some kind of brief training in tools would be great, it would have to be carefully structured. Some basic instruction on hermeneutics would be essential to prevent misuse of
the text or the tools, ie looking up a word's definition and picking the one
"I like best" rather than the most likely meaning (see lexicons) in a particular
verse/context. But you're probably doing some kind of basic hermeneutics training in addition, right?People also need a framework, and I think a few good concise OT/NT introductions/surveys, some kind of systematic theology, a concise commentary, and a concise Bible Dictionary, plus a few modern translations would help most people understand the Bible far better than they do (quality vs. quantity). It would be great if Logos had an inexpensive package along these lines to help people get started. Something (not necessarily these) like Paul Benware's OT/NT survey books (not currently available in Logos?), maybe Ryrie's Basic Theology, Holman Concise Bible Commentary, and the ESV, NIV, NASB, as an example. What do you think?
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thanks for allowing us to be a part of this process!
the number one thing I'd do would be to invest it in developing Logos' mobile capabilities. Integration with the iPhone has been a great move for Logos. It is allowing the software to gain exposure with new people who otherwise would have never purchased the base package. This needs to be extended and expanded however. I fully agree with Jacob Hantla's remarks. Developing integration with some form of e-reader (which uses the digital ink and is less strenuous on the eyes) as well as development of apps for other non-Apple phones and devices is a must.
I also agree with all the comments about a lower introductory starting point. I personally started with gold, but have dozens of friends who are interested in Logos, but balk at the price. Better digital marketing through apps and improving the process of buying books as well as an inexpensive simplified basic platform would take the company to the next level.
One final thought although I don't believe this would be as helpful in attracting droves of new customers. Improvements the user friendliness of morphological and syntax searches would draw some of the accordance and Bible works crowd over and make the platform even more valuable for the rest of us as well.
Thanks in advance for continuing to improve the best Bible software on the planet!
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Daniel Lee, first off I have been doing this for several years and I have already seen the results of what happens when folks start studying the Word of God for themselves. Faith comes from hearing and hearing the Word of God.
You are correct some people are afraid of computers and some can not afford them.
But, Ithe first problem is usually related to age, the older the person is, the more likely they will fear computers and the younger they are the more likely they are to fear books!
Kids that would never pick up a bible will read a bible on a computer! Education goes along way when it comes to training people on how to study the bible on a computer, and I have found that netbooks help older folks to get use to handling computers, and yes I have to start at the very start and show them how to use a computer, how to turn it on and turn it off. And how they can make the print bigger or smaller!
I personally have my own personal laptops along to loan to those that do not have a lap top. I also go directly to people's homes to teach them on their desktops. What ever it takes to get them into the word. I have also seen small groups of believers pitch in and buy computers for those that could not afford them.
Currently one of the big draw backs concerning Logos is the computer requirement, it was not like this with Libronix 3, but Logos 4 will be a much bigger problem. However with programs like the Word or even E-Sword you don't have this problem.
Also the church itself may want to buy some computers that are inexpensive, and either allow fellowship members to either check them out for home use or allow them to use them on site.
Of course I am not saying that everyone will become a part of such programs, but I am saying I have already seen the results and they are life changing!
As for what you teach, you are right you have got to show them not only how to use the program, but also good bible study methods, and since you control what is being taught and what passages you are using, it is easy to show them good methods and bad methods.
As a Pastor, I liked to preach, but over the years I have discovered I see more results in people's lives, if I lead people to Jesus and let Him teach them. I no longer preach, I spend my time encouraging believers in Christ. I spend time teaching them how to study the scriptures and I am confident that the same God that reveals the scriptures to me reveals it to them!
I am big on home bible studies, but a bible study is not a place where some one comes and listens to me or some one else as we tell them what we got out of the scriptures, a home bible study is where a group of us go, to get into to certain passages of scripture and actually apply bible study methods in real time to that passage, we read it through several times, remind ourselves how the passage fits into the over all book, we check out background materials, lookup and read cross references, look up every usage of key words, use dictionaries and lexicons to define key words, plus everything else that comes with bible study. We actually do it right there!
This has changed people's lives more than any preaching that I have ever done. I get people calling me up day and night wanting to talk about something they saw at these bible studies that lead them into more bible study at home and they want to share with me what God has shown them!
My little netbook allows me to get into the scriptures with any one any place. Although my netbook died a few weeks ago when it blew off the roof of my car at 50 mph and was than ran over by another car. I am saving up for it's replacement because it is such a great tool for the ministry that God has me in.
We have to be open to change and flexible in what we do, our purpose is to lead others to Christ, and then to keep pointing them back to Him. We desire to get them into the Word and trust Him to change their lives as He has ours!
In Christ,
Jim
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