Logos on Microsoft Surface Pro
Does Logos run acceptably well on a Microsoft Surface Pro in tablet mode?
Later next week, Costco will have a Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (i5, 8GB, 128GB SSD) with keyboard case and pen for $799.99. Currently, I am using a 9.7" iPad for small group Bible study. Although I like its size (8 to 10 of us sit around a table and have somewhat limited space), I miss the functionality of Logos on my desktop. I realize that no tablet will have the convenience of a 27" monitor, but access to personal books, powerful search capability and more would be very convenient.
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David McCulloch said:
Does Logos run acceptably well on a Microsoft Surface Pro in tablet mode?
I can't speak to this directly, but...
David McCulloch said:a Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (i5, 8GB, 128GB SSD)
My primary concern here is the storage space. If you have a large library and/or download videos/other media, you will want to make sure to have plenty of space. In my opinion, this would not be a good device if you planned to do many other things on it. If you are only keeping Logos and a Word Processor on it, it might be functional.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
David McCulloch said:
Does Logos run acceptably well on a Microsoft Surface Pro in tablet mode?
I've used Surface Pro since the first generation in 2012. Yes, it works. as to "acceptably well" -- that is a judgement call. Touch interface is still sorely lacking, but I have used mine in small groups and worship service for note-taking and fact checking.
It does work very well with a 27" monitor connected through the Surface Dock. see screen grab of my "2 monitor desktop" I use the kickstand to suspend the Pro at eye-height on a hanging file rack.
Search the forums for "Surface Pro" and you will find quite a bit of opinion
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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JT (alabama24) said:David McCulloch said:
a Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (i5, 8GB, 128GB SSD)
My primary concern here is the storage space. If you have a large library and/or download videos/other media, you will want to make sure to have plenty of space. In my opinion, this would not be a good device if you planned to do many other things on it. If you are only keeping Logos and a Word Processor on it, it might be functional.
Although JT is an Apple guy [:D], he's right on this one! The biggest reason I upgraded from my Pro1 to Pro4 was SSD space. Although I keep most other data on the micro SD card. The 128GB provided a ceiling that I needed to raise to 256GB.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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I've used two different surface devices (surface pro 4 and currently a surface book 2) and I find that the tablet mode is horrible. Hate to be so blunt, but it really is. If you are interested in specific details, please let me know and I will provide more.
Logos 8 - Reformed Baptist Pastor - Student at MBTS - theologynights.com
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David McCulloch said:
Later next week, Costco will have a Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (i5, 8GB, 128GB SSD) with keyboard case and pen for $799.99.
Another vote from experience, 8gigs of ram is not sufficient. I'm not sure if it is a surface specific issue, but when I had the surface pro 4, I only had 8gigs of ram and found the experience to be less than stellar. After upgrading to the book 2 with 16gigs, it improved drastically.
Logos 8 - Reformed Baptist Pastor - Student at MBTS - theologynights.com
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128GB SSD... Surface Pro 6 would be dedicated to Logos and my AppData\Local\Logos5 library is only 21GB, so I am guessing that I could live with 128GB SSD (that said, this issue was my first concern). Comments? More storage would be great (my desktop has a 512GB SSD), but the 256GB model will not be on sale, so I couldn't justify its price (I already have a desktop and an iPad, so even $799 for only 128GB is borderline extravagant).
Logos Touch Interface / Table Mode... I searched "Table Mode" in the forums (thanks David Thomas) and found many complaints (but not a good summary of the issues). I don't know if the problems are caused by Surface Pro, Logos, Windows 10 or a combination of them. And I don't know if the problems still exist with SP6, Logos 8 and/or the current version of Windows 10. I also don't know if I would encounter problems when using Logos in a less demanding setting (i.e., a small group Bible study). Any thoughts would be welcome.
8GB Memory... Brad mentioned "8gigs of ram is not sufficient". From the forum, a few people were okay with 8GB, but nobody seemed to be pleased with 4GB. Again, more memory would be great (my desktop has 16GB), but the 16GB model will not be on sale, so I couldn't justify its price. When would less memory (i.e., 16GB down to 8GB) have the greatest impact?
Should I pass on Costco's $799 Surface Pro 6 sale, continue using my iPad (and desktop), wait for next year's sales and reassess these three points?
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Logos does not work well in tablet mode. It is better to use the desktop mode and then do some tweaks to help out with the touch UI experience. I have a Surface Go, not a Pro. I adjusted the scaling upward to 200%, which makes everything larger. This includes the icons in File Explorer as well as fonts, etc. That's the best way I know to do "tablet" mode with Logos.
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Hi David:
Note that 128GB is the nominal SSD size: formatted this would be closer to 117GB: then you have space taken by stuff you cannot delete such as the operating system and key stuff that Microsoft provide like the browser and space for downloading and installing (relatively frequent) operating system updates. You might need to live within 58GB total storage space, which with a 21GB library does not leave much room for other things like say indexing. A 256GB SSD in essence triples rather than doubles your working space, but for many people a 256GB SSD is far too limiting unless the system is dedicated to only one task as you seem to envisage. It ends up being a huge investment for relatively little capability and flexibility unless most of what you need to do is done from either the cloud or a company server. I would suggest you pass on this sale and wait until systems like this come standard with a 512GB SSD as a minimum (for the kind of price you have in mind). This is not impossible, a 500GB SSD on its own costs around $100 these days compared to around $50-60 for a 256GB SSD and $40 for a 128GB. This is quite a significant recent reduction. What it means in reality is that systems prebuilt with a 128GB SSD are close to obsolete hence the need to go on sale to clear them out to make way for systems with a useful size SSD. (prices are for M2 SSDs on Newegg, not the 2.5" style used in laptops).
[:)]
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David McCulloch said:
128GB SSD... Surface Pro 6 would be dedicated to Logos and my AppData\Local\Logos5 library is only 21GB, so I am guessing that I could live with 128GB SSD (that said, this issue was my first concern). Comments? More storage would be great (my desktop has a 512GB SSD), but the 256GB model will not be on sale, so I couldn't justify its price (I already have a desktop and an iPad, so even $799 for only 128GB is borderline extravagant).
8GB Memory... Brad mentioned "8gigs of ram is not sufficient". From the forum, a few people were okay with 8GB, but nobody seemed to be pleased with 4GB. Again, more memory would be great (my desktop has 16GB), but the 16GB model will not be on sale, so I couldn't justify its price. When would less memory (i.e., 16GB down to 8GB) have the greatest impact?
Should I pass on Costco's $799 Surface Pro 6 sale, continue using my iPad (and desktop), wait for next year's sales and reassess these three points?
Since I previously opined on the tablet mode issue, I'll give a couple of opinions on your other issues. Regarding the size of the SSD, I have a 128GB SSD in my Surface Go. My library is double yours in size. Aside from Logos, I just have the Microsoft Office apps installed and I have around 50GB remaining. I figure I will be fine with this.
Regarding the amount of RAM, 8GB will be fine. I have seen Logos with 8GB RAM run on both the new Surface Pro 6 as well as older models and I have always been more than satisfied with the speed. You already know Logos is resource intensive. The first time launch of Logos on my Surface Go takes about 35 seconds, the pro less than that. Once the program is up and running, I have been pleased with the performance on my Surface Go. With a Surface Pro, it is even better. Fortunately, all of the new Surface Pros come with 8GB, so you won't ever need to experience anything less.
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David,
One more thing. Check out Microsoft's Black Friday sale. I think they have a black Surface Pro 6 with the 256GB SSD and a black type cover for $999. That's more than the Costco bundle, but it is a pretty good offer that will give you more space with the SSD and future proof your purchase.
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Works great on last year's version. I'm selling mine but have used it quite a lot up till now. Mine has i7 and 16GB of RAM though with 512GB of Storage. However, I think he newest version will likely run just fine.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
What problems does Logos have in tablet mode? How does the Logos experience with a Microsoft Surface Pro (or a Surface Go) compare to the experience with an iPad? Or should I ask how Logos on a Surface Pro (or Surface Go) compares to Logos on a powerful desktop with a 27" monitor?
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David McCulloch said:
What problems does Logos have in tablet mode? How does the Logos experience with a Microsoft Surface Pro (or a Surface Go) compare to the experience with an iPad? Or should I ask how Logos on a Surface Pro (or Surface Go) compares to Logos on a powerful desktop with a 27" monitor?
Logos APP on iPad is built for touch interface. Logos8 (PROGRAM) is built for mouse/keyboard interface. Yes, there are some touch/pen features that work on the Surface devices, but the interface is not designed to maximize that form of interaction. Using a Surface device one has the entire collection of Logos8 features on a mobile device, but accessing those features is clunky without a keyboard/mouse. However, the type cover with a touchpad helps (but is awkward if your Bible Study or worship service doesn't provide a desk or table.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Special thanks to everyone who replied. Although I believe that a Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (i5, 8GB, 128GB SSD) could be used as a Logos-dedicated tablet, I have decided to pass on this year's sale. My decision was based primarily on two shortcomings -- 128GB SSD and the difficulty of using Logos in tablet mode. I would prefer a 256GB SSD for future growth (e.g., Logos books and additional programs such as MS Office). Perhaps that 236GB SSD will be available next year at this year's sale price. Also, I am hoping that both Logos and Microsoft Windows will be improved, so Logos becomes easier to use in tablet mode.
FYI, if you are a Costco member and wish to purchase a Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (i5, 8GB, 128GB SSD, keyboard case, pen) for $799.99, here is the link. It is an excellent price, especially considering that it includes a keyboard case and pen. FYI, the sale is good through November 26, 2018, while supplies last. Item# 1275691. Model# M4R-00001.
Blessings to all.
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How does Logos 8 (desktop app) interact with the Surface Pro's pen (stylus)?
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The issues with Logos running in tablet mode really should not deter anyone from using Logos in desktop mode on a Windows 2 in 1 or tablet. Tablet mode in Windows presents the start menu as a full screen instead of a drop-down list. Tablet mode also makes all programs run in full screen mode, I believe. One issue I ran into with Logos in tablet mode is that the onscreen keyboard doesn't pop up when you want it. In desktop mode you can work around this limitation by setting your system tray to show a keyboard icon at all times. Then you can tap on it when you need the onscreen keyboard in Logos. It's not a perfect solution, but it works.
I have set the scaling to 185%, which makes everything bigger. Some people would say this is a waste of screen space, but I'm not interested in multi-tasking on a 10-inch tablet. But, if I had an iPad Pro 11 I wouldn't be doing a lot of multitasking on that, either. The higher scaling makes it easy to close out applications by touching the icons instead of using the stylus to precisely hit the much smaller icons when running at 100% scaling. Highlighting using the stylus works really well and scrolling in open windows with touch does too.
Bottom line is that Logos on the desktop is not a tablet-friendly program, but that doesn't mean that you can't use it on a tablet. I have used it on several and my current Surface Go runs it as good for my needs as a more powerful laptop.
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Bill Anderson said:
One issue I ran into with Logos in tablet mode is that the onscreen keyboard doesn't pop up when you want it.
Thanks Bill! Your grasp of the issue is admirable. I concur with all your conclusions.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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One thing I'll add to the list of pro's and con's of using a Surface device is the screen aspect ratio. Even though tablet mode is not ideal, running Logos in desktop mode is much more enjoyable with the 3:2 screen ratio for me than other laptops. 3:2 allows for more vertical screen space which I find very useful.
I purchased my Surface Pro 3 specifically as a Logos machine. It has worked great all these years as such. Logos on an iPad or Android Tablet is far too limited in comparison.
I also agree that 256gb should be the minimum SSD size to ensure adequate space. e.
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Hi Bill,
I really appreciate this post and your understanding of working with Logos Desktop on windows tablet devices. Logos is missing a great opportunity by not optimizing the desktop experience for smaller form factor windows tablets and all touch based windows devices for the desktop app.
In my opinion the lack of fully implemented touch interface for all windows touch devices is disheartening considering how long they've been around and how much added value it could provide to the bible study experience.
Also problematic as many have stated is how to deal with large libraries on smaller disk drives. To this end Logos is working on a solution that should be available in a future version of L8.
FYI in case you are not aware here is what I would consider the sweet spot of devices for small factor windows tablets. Microsoft announced on November 12th the Surface GO for business with 256 GB SSD 8 GB RAM and LTE. Now if FL can fix the touch interface issues that have plagued the desktop experience for years this tablet will provide the perfect portable desktop experience.
Surface Go for Business
256GB / Intel 4415Y / 8GB RAM / LTEI'm looking foward to trying it out soon. It's a bit pricey (around $1,100 with type cover and pen) but for what it provides well worth it if you can afford it and a great option if you have a large library.
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FYI Bill... new Surface GO device.
Surface Go for Business
256GB / Intel 4415Y / 8GB RAM / LTE
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Hi Bill,
FYI ... new Surface GO device.
Surface Go for Business
256GB / Intel 4415Y / 8GB RAM / LTE
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Hi Bill,
I really appreciate your understanding of working with windows devices and small form factor tablets. I agree with your assesment of the issues for Logos desktop users. For me, as a large library user, the issues come down to touch interface deficiencies and hard drive space available.
Logos is working on a near future update to address the drive space issue and I'm really looking forward to it (see: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/174565/1008655.aspx#1008655). The long running touch interface issues (see: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/173860/1008614.aspx#1008614) are very disappointing to me and IMO are a missed opportunity for FL to shine with the L8 desktop release. Hopefully they will see this opportunity for windows touch devices and fix the issues in the near futuure.
In the meantime Microsoft just released a new model of the Surface GO for business that hits the sweet spot IMO of the small form factor windows tablets for running L8 desktop with a large library while being highly portable.Surface Go for Business
256GB / Intel 4415Y / 8GB RAM / LTE
It is a little pricey but for those of us who can use the drive space a great option.
Thanks again for your insight and this post Bill. Much appreciated.
William0 -
Bill Anderson said:
Since I previously opined on the tablet mode issue, I'll give a couple of opinions on your other issues. Regarding the size of the SSD, I have a 128GB SSD in my Surface Go. My library is double yours in size. Aside from Logos, I just have the Microsoft Office apps installed and I have around 50GB remaining. I figure I will be fine with this.
Agreed. It could be a factor if you see this as a laptop replacement running a myriad of other applications. However, for myself the small form factor device has become my de facto Bible that I carry with me wherever I go. It has a single purpose for bible study, reading and sharing with whomever I am with. I don't run any other apps but with a 256 GB device I have plenty of space to store my library and MS Office.
Bill Anderson said:Regarding the amount of RAM, 8GB will be fine. I have seen Logos with 8GB RAM run on both the new Surface Pro 6 as well as older models and I have always been more than satisfied with the speed. You already know Logos is resource intensive. The first time launch of Logos on my Surface Go takes about 35 seconds, the pro less than that. Once the program is up and running, I have been pleased with the performance on my Surface Go. With a Surface Pro, it is even better. Fortunately, all of the new Surface Pros come with 8GB, so you won't ever need to experience anything less.
Agreed. In my experience 8 GB is more than adequate unless you are running many applications at the same time. But for Logos only use it works great.
In the end it comes down to what you expect out the small form factor.
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Sorry for all of the extra posts everyone. I was getting errors trying to post with images and I assumed the posts did not go through. Got that worked out now with Graham Criddle's help. [:)]
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William,
When I purchased my Go (right at launch), I couldn't get the 256MB Go. That would be sweet. But, I have managed with my 128GB SSD given that all I really use Logos, take notes in meetings at work in OneNote, use Word and Excel, and browse the web. Battery life is a limitation of the Go, but I bought a big power bank to charge the Go when I am away from an outlet.
We've been asking for tablet UI changes to the desktop app for years, going way back to when a number of us were running Logos on 8-inch Windows tablets.
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Yes, the 128 GB drive is more than adequate as long as the size of your library is not a problem. My library will no longer fit on a 128 GB drive when indexing takes place so the 256 GB will help me out until FL comes out with their solution for optionally downloading resources.
Thanks again for your input Bill. Glad you're enjoying running Logos desktop on your Surface GO.
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What are the most important changes -- to either Logos or Windows -- that would make Logos into a tablet-friendly product?
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David McCulloch said:
What are the most important changes -- to either Logos or Windows -- that would make Logos into a tablet-friendly product?
Here's a few to start:
1. Make it friendly with Windows tablet mode (as previously discussed)
2. Make all the controls in the Logos desktop app bigger so that you can manipulate them with your finger (today you have to use the stylus/pen unless you increase the scaling of the app to make everything larger)
3. Implement the selective sync feature they are working on right now (to allow you to download some, but not all, resources on to your tablet)
4. Allow highlighting with your finger (today you have to use your stylus/pen)
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Bill Anderson said:David McCulloch said:
What are the most important changes -- to either Logos or Windows -- that would make Logos into a tablet-friendly product?
Here's a few to start:
1. Make it friendly with Windows tablet mode (as previously discussed)
2. Make all the controls in the Logos desktop app bigger so that you can manipulate them with your finger (today you have to use the stylus/pen unless you increase the scaling of the app to make everything larger)
3. Implement the selective sync feature they are working on right now (to allow you to download some, but not all, resources on to your tablet)
4. Allow highlighting with your finger (today you have to use your stylus/pen)
I agree with Bill's list and would add one more.
5. Consistent touch input throughout the desktop app. Mainly being able to scroll from any panel with my finger. Currently touch scrolling works in some panels but not others.
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