Sorry, I don't understand what you want as a response? are you looking for resources? possible search arguments?
research topic
Mitchell, Yvonne
Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
Can a woman be a church leader? what would be a good reason to write about this? why would you write about this?what is it you do not know about this ?
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Sorry, I don't understand what you want as a response? are you looking for resources? possible search arguments?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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These are questions on a select topic paper I need to answer,both would be helpful also
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MJ will have better ideas. But without delving into theology (verboten on the forum):
- Your first question uses 'can' (not should, a much different issue). Within 'can' are a host of positives that women can bring to leadership. I'd also note many churches are heavily female, and becoming more so. Your library may include discussions (I keep a section just on 'Women').
- A good reason(s) are within the answer to the first question, presuming you believe the reasons. I'd center on people skills.
- Not knowing surrounds the wisdom of such. Pluses and minus's always. Same in large corporations.
If you do a search, you'll quickly land under a different question, 'should they'. That one gets quickly involved either in denominational views, or exegetical skills.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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For the negative side of the argument (shouldn't/can't) in a theological context cf. resources like this https://www.logos.com/product/2745/biblical-foundations-for-manhood-and-womanhood
This looks like it may argue for the affirmative, though I'm not positive: https://www.logos.com/product/43581/as-christ-submits-to-the-church-a-biblical-understanding-of-leadership-and-mutual-submission
Simply arguing along the lines of "a woman has quality 'x', quality 'x' would be a good quality to have in leadership, therefore, women would make good leaders" would be a pretty weak case unless you first demonstrated that x is uniquely qualifying for leadership and uniquely had by women. You'd probably be digging yourself into more of an argument than you're wanting to chew on taking that route.
Edit:
Just remembered you can get both sides of the debate in a single resource: https://www.logos.com/product/54046/two-views-on-women-in-ministry
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Mitchell, Yvonne said:
what would be a good reason to write about this?
Because it's for an assignment for a paper?
Mitchell, Yvonne said:why would you write about this?
Because it's for an assignment for a paper?
Mitchell, Yvonne said:what is it you do not know about this ?
I think only you can answer that.
Which leaves only your first question:
Mitchell, Yvonne said:Can a woman be a church leader?
There are lots of resources that argue pro or con. J. Remington Bowling mentioned a couple of standard ones in a post above. Here are some more:
Pro (Egalitarian):
- Beyond Sex Roles: What the Bible Says about a Woman’s Place in Church and Family by Gilbert Bilezikian
- Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity without Hierarchy by Ronald W. Pierce and Rebecca Merrill Groothuis
- I Suffer Not a Woman: Rethinking 1 Timothy 2:11–15 in Light of Ancient Evidence by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger
- Men and Women in the Church: Building Consensus on Christian Leadership by Sarah Sumner
- Women Leaders and the Church: Three Crucial Questions by Linda L. Belleville
- No Time for Silence: Evangelical Women in Public Ministry around the Turn of the Century by Janette Hassey
- Male Authority in Context edited by J. Dwayne Howell and Tim Krueger
- How I Changed My Mind about Women in Leadership: Compelling Stories from Prominent Evangelicals by multiple authors
- Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry by Stanley J. Grenz (not in Logos)
Multi-perspectival:
- Two Views on Women in Ministry by multiple authors
- Women, Ministry and the Gospel by Mark Husbands and Timothy Larsen
- Four Views on Women and Church Leadership by Ron Highfield (with other authors) (not in Logos)
- Women in Ministry: Four Views by Robert G. Clouse et al.
Con (Complementarian):
- Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth by Wayne Grudem
- Complementarianism by Sam Storms
- Women in the Church: An Interpretation and Application of 1 Timothy 2:9–15 edited by Andreas J. Köstenberger and Thomas R. Schreiner
- Jesus and the Feminists: Who Do They Say That He Is? by Margaret Elizabeth Köstenberger
Good luck! There be dragons (land mines) in this topic.
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Hi Yvonne:
Church leader needs to be qualified as of what type:
Women can be praise leaders, administrative leader, prayer intercession leader, other women leader, prophecy higher gift leader, etc.
Where there is major controversy is in the ability to set / develop doctrine.
Some groups think that women is not allowed to develop / set doctrine, because they say the Bible prohibits it.
If that is the main problem, then women can be Chaplains, because they as such do not set doctrine.
Others express that the original mandate from God was: Woman is a fit aid for man (and not changed by Jesus), and that together with Paul's admonition that leadership of congregation is not allowed because of Eve being deceived by the serpent, she is not to have input in developing doctrine (interpreted by some groups in this way).
It kind of leaves the door open for other tasks if is a valid argument: evaluate doctrine: yes, by all means. And communicate doctrine (much of what a Chaplain or evangelist can do).
Lots of controversy about the theme, if you want to clarify the issues for your own personal growth, then definitively do the research and paper.
Just remember: you need to read the arguments of different sides, and check with the Scripture without letting your preconceptions, assumptions, or presuppositions get in the way (almost impossible), pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth of the matter.
Very rough overview of some points, hope this helps.
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Hi Rosie:
Wonderful listing.
Do you know if there is a collection that has all relevant resources together for easy searching?
If there is not a L8 one, did you make one for your studies? can you share it with us (in case you have)?
I have one with the rule "Women" in the box, but is not very scientific.
Thanks ahead of time for your input.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Do you know if there is a collection that has all relevant resources together for easy searching?
I'm not sure what you mean by an L8 collection. I haven't been paying attention much to the new features in L8. Do they have built-in collections now? Or did you mean what is sometimes called a bundle and sometimes called a collection, which is a group of books all sold together? (But those wouldn't be specific to L8 either, since they've been around for a while.)
There are several collections Logos sells that I know of which cover the topic:
- Women in the Church Collection (6 vols.) - egalitarian
- Crossway Women’s Ministry Collection (5 vols.) - complementarian
- Gender and the Bible Collection (12 vols.)
- Christians for Biblical Equality Collection (11 vols.) - egalitarian
Hamilton Ramos said:If there is not a L8 one, did you make one for your studies? can you share it with us (in case you have)?
I have one huge collection of books that have to do with Women, Feminist Theology & Gender Studies. I've tagged a lot of my books "gender", so many are picked up that way, so my rule won't work for you directly. But here it is:
title:(feminis, female, gender, women, sexes) OR "biblical equality" OR subject:(feminist, gender, women) OR mytag:gender -"men and women of the bible" -mytag:"library of early"
I've had to manually omit lots of resources from it, as it picks up too much (e.g., Little Women, the novel)
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Thanks Rosie.
I was referring to a collection available in the Logos collection group in FL. I have not seen any as inclusive as the one you shared.
The Women in the Bible available there seems to be targeted to other type of research.
I will do one using your rule (without the mytag part), and add the collections mentioned.
That will give me a good starting point.
Do you know if the subject of women in ministry is treated in some systematic or biblical theology resource? how about in a ministry type monograph?
I guess I would have to check there too.
Blessings.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
I was referring to a collection available in the Logos collection group in FL. I have not seen any as inclusive as the one you shared.
Ah yes, I rarely go on the Faithlife site and had forgotten about that group.
Hamilton Ramos said:Do you know if the subject of women in ministry is treated in some systematic or biblical theology resource? how about in a ministry type monograph?
These are some more monographs I have that treat the subject of women in ministry from a biblical theology approach, as well as ministry monographs that focus on it. I don't think a systematic theology resource would get into that topic. (See my post above with the others that I had categorized into pro/multiview/con).
Empowering Women and Men to Use Their Gifts Together in Advancing the Gospel
Paul, Women & Wives: Marriage and Women’s Ministry in the Letters of Paul
Woman in the Bible: An Overall View of All the Crucial Passages on Women’s Roles
Women in Ministry: Questions and Answers in the Exploration of a Calling
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Rosie Perera said:
These are some more monographs I have that treat the subject of women in ministry from a biblical theology approach, as well as ministry monographs that focus on it. I don't think a systematic theology resource would get into that topic
Grudem (who is a well-known part of the discussion) treats the underlying questions of "equal in worth, different in role" and "submission of females to males" in a chapter in his ST in the context of anthropology, including a bibliography that refers several works about women in ministry, indicating pro/con stances. Later he discusses the question "should women be church officers?" in a chapter on church government.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Grudem (who is a well-known part of the discussion) treats the underlying questions of "equal in worth, different in role" and "submission of females to males" in a chapter in his ST in the context of anthropology, including a bibliography that refers several works about women in ministry, indicating pro/con stances. Later he discusses the question "should women be church officers?" in a chapter on church government.
That reminds me of an article by a systematic theologian, J.I. Packer, "Let's Stop Making Women Presbyters" in Christianity Today (Feb 11, 1991). It's in this bundle of CT issues that Faithlife carries. Or if you don't own that yet and don't want to spend the $40 for it, that one article is online here.
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Awesome Rosie, thanks.
Do you know if there is a page in which ideas about possible research paper topics relating to Women in ministry and leadership / office positions can be consulted for getting ideas on different angles in which one can approach research of the issue?
In the following page, some pointers are given. the author writes extensively about the topic, but have not checked the info carefully:
https://margmowczko.com/25-biblical-roles-for-biblical-women/
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Thanks NB.
Without entering in details, from your viewpoint, what resource best describes the problem with women involved in:
1 evaluating doctrine
2 developing doctrine
3 communicating doctrine
Conversely, which resources do you think best explain why women doing any of the above does not present a problem.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Do you know if there is a page in which ideas about possible research paper topics relating to Women in ministry and leadership / office positions can be consulted for getting ideas on different angles in which one can approach research of the issue?
No, I have not searched for such a page so I don't know whether one exists. I think the Google search results for such a thing would give you a lot of junk -- scammers, places offering to sell you research papers rather than you researching and writing your own, etc. So I'd be wary. Find a topic that interests you rather than looking for ideas about possible research topics that someone else has written up.
I've sent you a message on FL.
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Thank you Rosie.
Received message and answered.
Found a site that seems legit. (Good articles and lots of idea sparking content):
From college days, I remember the professor had a list of topics that one could use to spark ideas or to pick one for the paper. I am surprised that no such lists exist and are posted in the net.
Many Christians would benefit from them (even the ones that cannot take formal courses).
Kind regards.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Awesome Rosie, thanks.
Do you know if there is a page in which ideas about possible research paper topics relating to Women in ministry and leadership / office positions can be consulted for getting ideas on different angles in which one can approach research of the issue?
In the following page, some pointers are given. the author writes extensively about the topic, but have not checked the info carefully:
https://margmowczko.com/25-biblical-roles-for-biblical-women/
Thank you for the reference, Hamilton. It was sort of funny. Clearly these Biblical women were not Biblical women.
Best to return to software subjects that discuss Biblical.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
From college days, I remember the professor had a list of topics that one could use to spark ideas or to pick one for the paper.
A search suggestion is Thecla
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Denise said:
Thank you for the reference, Hamilton. It was sort of funny. Clearly these Biblical women were not Biblical women.
Best to return to software subjects that discuss Biblical.
The idea that complementarians would be against women doing things like refusing to kill infants at the behest of a king (or that they would not consider them "biblical women") is silly.
If you're doing research for a paper, it's best to not caricature the other side and maybe do your research from someone who doesn't create silly caricatures.
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J. Remington Bowling said:
If you're doing research for a paper, it's best to not caricature the other side and maybe do your research from someone who doesn't create silly caricatures.
That's good advice for all of us on most any topic.
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Thanks KS4J.
5486 hits in 924 resources, long list.
From AYD:
"about the year 200 c.e. Tertullian (De Bapt. 1.17) wrote:
But if they claim writings which are wrongly inscribed with Paul’s name—I mean the example of Thecla—in support of women’s freedom to teach and baptize, let them know that a presbyter in Asia, who put together that book, heaping up a narrative as it were from his own materials under Paul’s name, when after conviction he confessed that he had done it from love of Paul, resigned his position."
MacDonald, D. R. (1992). Thekla, Acts of. In D. N. Freedman (Ed.), The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (Vol. 6, p. 443). New York: Doubleday.
But I have to check the other search hits.
Aside:
KS4J: would love to get your input
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/176601/1020649.aspx#1020649
Also is the new headword search capability taken the place of your IVP series? Do you have other headword series other than IVP dictionaries?
Thanks for your guidance, sorry to touch on a tangential subject here.
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NB your input gave an idea:
NB.Mick said:Grudem (who is a well-known part of the discussion) treats the underlying questions of "equal in worth, different in role" and "submission of females to males" in a chapter in his ST in the context of anthropology, including a bibliography that refers several works about women in ministry, indicating pro/con stances. Later he discusses the question "should women be church officers?" in a chapter on church government.
I made a search in the systematic theologies collection to see those that had subject index. Then I went to the index and looked up the Women entry, quickly one can hover to see if information is relevant.
Old fashioned research paper trick, used in a new technological platform. I do think it gives more specific results than just searching for women in ST collection, although that can also be done.
kind regards.
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J. Remington Bowling said:
The idea that complementarians would be against women doing things like refusing to kill infants at the behest of a king (or that they would not consider them "biblical women") is silly.
If you're doing research for a paper, it's best to not caricature the other side and maybe do your research from someone who doesn't create silly caricatures.
J, you're assuming sides. And I'm not not doing research. And I could care less about your labels. And it was funny.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I didn't assume any side, I was referring to the source, I don't know what you're talking about in reference to "labels", and it was a caricature.
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J. Remington Bowling said:
I didn't assume any side, I was referring to the source, I don't know what you're talking about in reference to "labels", and it was a caricature.
J, I'll help you out.
A 'side': complentarian. You brought it up, not me. I avoided at the top of the thread. And it's a fool's errand (sides).
The source: can't help you there. Source as in OP, discussion, an author, or ???
Labels: read your post. Chock full.
Caricature: demands all of the above. You're arguing with your comment.
Again, Hamilton's reference was funny.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Again, Hamilton's reference was funny.
And I've been behaving myself with no comment while you get all the fun [:(] My initial reaction to the OP was it was spam so I asked to discover if the OP was legit ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
And I've been behaving myself with no comment while you get all the fun
My initial reaction to the OP was it was spam so I asked to discover if the OP was legit ...I imagined a humorous Bible college dorm room; the wording was careful. But my mother struggled with the question in her professional life. From my corporate days, women make excellent leaders. Here in New Age land, the jewish rab (female) and lady pastors are the primarily public face of Biblical religion.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
A 'side': complentarian. You brought it up, not me.
I made mention to what complementarians believe. I didn't assume the truth of complementarianism. You'll need to explain what you find problematic about that.
Denise said:I avoided at the top of the thread. And it's a fool's errand (sides).
Given that I simply pointed out that the source and your take on the source was a caricature of the opposing position, it looks like you're saying that to point out that 'x' is a caricature of what 'Group A' believes is a fool's errand. But this makes little sense. So either you're saying something else is a fools errand, which isn't what I was doing, or you must have some reasons for thinking that it's a fools errand to note caricatures of positions that I'm unaware of.
Denise said:The source: can't help you there. Source as in OP, discussion, an author, or ???
The source linked to and your comment on the source in the context of this thread, which is gathering info for research purposes.
Denise said:Labels: read your post. Chock full.
Looking back over my post in question it seems that I'm just using the sort of labels that other people have already been using in this thread, like "complementarian." You'll need to be more helpful here.
Denise said:Caricature: demands all of the above. You're arguing with your comment.
I'm not sure what you mean by "demands all of the above." or how you think I'm arguing with my comment--so I'm contradicting myself?
Denise said:Again, Hamilton's reference was funny.
I suppose I can see how one might be laughing at the source for engaging in silly caricatures, but that doesn't effect my point, which I would think you agree with:
(1) No complementarian would disagree with several of the points mentioned in the article (just some assumptions in certain points, like point 25)
(2) If one is looking for resources for a paper they are working on, it's best to avoid caricatures of opposing positions
Both (1) and (2) seem pretty uncontroversial.
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J. Remington Bowling said:
I made mention to what complementarians believe.
J. Remington, when you've been on the forums as long as I have, you learn to just let Denise be Denise. She's often a bit caustic with a wicked sense of humor. She's a very good source of information on all things "the text, the whole text, and nothing but the text". And she spent time in Northeastern Washington which is so underpopulated as to take some doing.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Interesting article:
https://carm.org/1-cor-113-word-head-does-not-mean-authority
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Hamilton Ramos said:
KS4J: would love to get your input
Replied => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/176601/1020913.aspx#1020913
Hamilton Ramos said:Also is the new headword search capability taken the place of your IVP series?
No, can use series for dynamic search
Hamilton Ramos said:Do you have other headword series other than IVP dictionaries?
Not yet, am adding HW tags to show Headwords by Language
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