Erasmus Exemplar Question
I hope this is okay to post on this forum (?). If not, admin. can certainly delete post 😊. Not sure how to rotate this pic. above 😡.
A friend of mine just returned from Basel, Switzerland and examining some of the Greek MSS used - and annotated - by Erasmus. He sent me a photo that I have included in this post of a MS that Erasmus underlined or sectioned off a portion of the NT. Problem is, my friend does not know which MS it was, nor which text it is. He is doing some work on Erasmus and is trying to identify which portion of the NT Erasmus has sectioned off - and why.
As you will be able to see, the scribes writing is poor and often difficult to make out what letters he intends to write. However, from what little I was able to translate it seems that this section is either from Ephesians or Revelation (?). And, I would surmise that the portion between the two red lines (you will see them in the pic.) might be a quotation from the LXX. But, I am only just now tinkering w. Greek II and thought I might run this by those far more adept than I am 🤓.
Any help would be much appreciated! Love this forum. God bless!
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Addendum: My friend just emailed me and said it isn’t from Revelation since they did not have that MS in Basel. I am thinking somewhere in Ephesians (?).
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Luke 1.
Why is the part shown in the picture sectioned off? I would hazard a guess of scribal error, but a lot more is needed than one page to establish a pattern.
I hate to say it, but if your friend can't make out what he is reading, why handle manuscripts directly in the first place?
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Lee said:
Luke 1.
Why is the part shown in the picture sectioned off? I would hazard a guess of scribal error, but a lot more is needed than one page to establish a pattern.
I hate to say it, but if your friend can't make out what he is reading, why handle manuscripts directly in the first place?
Thanks so very much! To be honest, I could not make out the letters either, but I am only in Greek II. But, he does not read Greek. Just loves to research MSS and text-critical issues (he constantly wars against KJVO’s).
How would someone discern these sloppy letters though? I would love to be able to read the MSS, but, they are often almost illegible - or, perhaps it’s due to me only completing Greek I (?).
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Puddin’ said:Lee said:
Luke 1.
Why is the part shown in the picture sectioned off? I would hazard a guess of scribal error, but a lot more is needed than one page to establish a pattern.
I hate to say it, but if your friend can't make out what he is reading, why handle manuscripts directly in the first place?
Thanks so very much! To be honest, I could not make out the letters either, but I am only in Greek II. But, he does not read Greek. Just loves to research MSS and text-critical issues (he constantly wars against KJVO’s).
How would someone discern these sloppy letters though? I would love to be able to read the MSS, but, they are often almost illegible - or, perhaps it’s due to me only completing Greek I (?).
What exactly is he (your friend) researching if he doesn’t read nor understands Greek? I think his motives are in the wrong place (“constantly wars...”). I don’t use the KJV, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be able to teach the gospel from it and help someone get saved.
Tell your friend to use his time more wisely; it’ll help him learn to teach the gospel and become a better person. “Constantly war-ing against KJVO’s” (whatever the ‘O’ means) does not equal to sharing the gospel nor speaking the truth in love. Just an observation...
Merry Christmas!
DAL
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Puddin’ said:
But, he does not read Greek. Just loves to research MSS and text-critical issues
"Researching MSS" without the ability to read the original language... that sounds like a huge handicap to me.
Puddin’ said:How would someone discern these sloppy letters though? I would love to be able to read the MSS, but, they are often almost illegible - or, perhaps it’s due to me only completing Greek I (?).
Are the letters "sloppy"? That is a value judgement I would be slow to make. Sorry, off hand I cannot think of Logos resources that teach reading miniscules and ligatures, but you can find Wikipedia articles to get you started.
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It seems to me that all that the relevant researcher would have to do is to type up a bunch of what's written there and then start running searches on snatches of it in Logos/Verbum (or Google). Even with mistakes and manuscript differences, I wouldn't expect it to take too long to figure out where the overall passage is from. If you have something like the Wikipedia page for Greek miniscules open, it shouldn't be that difficult even for people with no Greek at all. It's just matching.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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DAL said:
What exactly is he (your friend) researching if he doesn’t read nor understands Greek? I think his motives are in the wrong place (“constantly wars...”). I don’t use the KJV, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be able to teach the gospel from it and help someone get saved.
Tell your friend to use his time more wisely; it’ll help him learn to teach the gospel and become a better person. “Constantly war-ing against KJVO’s” (whatever the ‘O’ means) does not equal to sharing the gospel nor speaking the truth in love. Just an observation..
Er ... a... how much time have you spent in academic ancient language research? I have taken seminars where one was required to read the text in at least two of these languages - Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese - with nearly everyone supplementing those with Manchu, Mongolian, Khotanese, Korean, Sogdian . . . Everyone divided the languages into those one could use as bathroom reading (yes, that was our sense of humor), those we could read with a dictionary, and those we could muddle through with a dictionary and a grammar. Research papers and theses would include any and all of those levels as sources. And, yes, despite the assumptions of many in these forums, studying Buddhism did a great deal for enhancing my understanding of the Gospel.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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SineNomine said:
It seems to me that all that the relevant researcher would have to do is ... It's just matching.
If this is being done for personal edification, or to check what some expert has said on the subject, it might pass muster. But if it is done in the context of presenting original, authoritative conclusions, the whole undertaking would be called into question. Textual criticism is not an entry-level subject.
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Lee said:
But if it is done in the context of presenting original, authoritative conclusions, the whole undertaking would be called into question. Textual criticism is not an entry-level subject.
Grrr ... I'm being turned into a grump. Every subject is at some point an entry-level subject ... you've got to start any topic before you know anything about the topic. And you have to make stabs at conclusions, evaluate them, revise them and make another stab before you have any original, authoritative conclusions to make. Why are so many jumping to conclusions that the person looking at the manuscript is an arrogant idiot ... they just might be a humble student building the skills they need for an activity they enjoy ... and, perhaps, enjoy sharing.
P.S. I have personal experience with jumping in head-first. My eldest brother gave me a college-calculus textbook and answers for Christmas when a was a fourth grader in a 3 room, 8 grade school. Yes, I started calculus before algebra or geometry.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:Puddin’ said:Lee said:
Luke 1.
Why is the part shown in the picture sectioned off? I would hazard a guess of scribal error, but a lot more is needed than one page to establish a pattern.
I hate to say it, but if your friend can't make out what he is reading, why handle manuscripts directly in the first place?
Thanks so very much! To be honest, I could not make out the letters either, but I am only in Greek II. But, he does not read Greek. Just loves to research MSS and text-critical issues (he constantly wars against KJVO’s).
How would someone discern these sloppy letters though? I would love to be able to read the MSS, but, they are often almost illegible - or, perhaps it’s due to me only completing Greek I (?).
What exactly is he (your friend) researching if he doesn’t read nor understands Greek? I think his motives are in the wrong place (“constantly wars...”). I don’t use the KJV, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be able to teach the gospel from it and help someone get saved.
Tell your friend to use his time more wisely; it’ll help him learn to teach the gospel and become a better person. “Constantly war-ing against KJVO’s” (whatever the ‘O’ means) does not equal to sharing the gospel nor speaking the truth in love. Just an observation...
Merry Christmas!
DAL
KJVO stands for King-James-Version-Onlyism. I stand w. him in this endeavor because of so many recent attacks in our movement on the “newer translations“ (based on far older MSS). Good church members are being told to stay away from fine translations such as the ESV, NASB, etc. by using fear-mongering tactics and outright misinformation.
We completely agree that someone can be saved using the KJV, and really do not care if anyone uses it. It is the attacks on the translations mentioned above that he is responding to. He is one of the finest Christian men I have ever known.
Thank you for your input. Blessings!
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MJ. Smith said:Lee said:
But if it is done in the context of presenting original, authoritative conclusions, the whole undertaking would be called into question. Textual criticism is not an entry-level subject.
Grrr ... I'm being turned into a grump. Every subject is at some point an entry-level subject ... you've got to start any topic before you know anything about the topic. And you have to make stabs at conclusions, evaluate them, revise them and make another stab before you have any original, authoritative conclusions to make. Why are so many jumping to conclusions that the person looking at the manuscript is an arrogant idiot ... they just might be a humble student building the skills they need for an activity they enjoy ... and, perhaps, enjoy sharing.
P.S. I have personal experience with jumping in head-first. My eldest brother gave me a college-calculus textbook and answers for Christmas when a was a fourth grader in a 3 room, 8 grade school. Yes, I started calculus before algebra or geometry.
Excellent! Yes, this dear Brother has been one of the most godly examples that I have ever known. He is anything but ignorant and was a Bible college president for almost 20 years. He did have Greek 1 over 40 years ago, but completely lost it all over the years (he’s in his late 70‘s). He wanted to see and handle the MSS that he has written so much on before he leaves this life. His works on KJVO are impeccable and, honestly, the most detailed I have ever read. In the last couple of years he put out his magnum opus on this topic and it’s incredible.
Him and I both took Wallace’s beginners classes on textual criticism, but certainly have a long way to go. God bless!
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Thank you to every single post. Will go back and reread your input several times.
We still are not sure why Erasmus would seemingly section off the portion in red however? As someone else suggested, perhaps it’s a scribal blunder.
God bless!
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MJ. Smith said:
Why are so many jumping to conclusions that the person looking at the manuscript is an arrogant idiot ... they just might be a humble student building the skills they need for an activity they enjoy ... and, perhaps, enjoy sharing.
I never said or implied that the OP's friend was, in your words, an arrogant idiot. Your mind-reading and selective quotation have failed you again.
As to whether textual criticism is an entry-level subject, I don't see any point grinding it out with you. Been there, done that.
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Lee said:
I never said or implied that the OP's friend was, in your words, an arrogant idiot.
I was not mind-reading ... I was using hyperbole to emphasize the lack of respect implied by judging the work of a person known only by one example presented by a third person. People on the forums ask all sorts of strange questions most recently the request "weird search - find all verse with certain number of words in a given English bible version (NT)" ... the forums simply answered the question and, perhaps, asked what he was using it for but they didn't attack him for doing something that seems "useless" or "not fruitful" ... so why attack someone who wants some help identifying a text and the reason for markings.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
so why attack someone who wants some help identifying a text and the reason for markings.
Last time I checked, you were the only one attacking anyone (me) in this thread. Now, true to form, you will cite other (unrelated) posts, misunderstanding in communication, fair use of hyperbole, etc. everything except apologize for putting those disgustingly condescending words ("arrogant idiot" "useless" "not fruitful") in my mouth.
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Lee said:MJ. Smith said:
Why are so many jumping to conclusions that the person looking at the manuscript is an arrogant idiot ... they just might be a humble student building the skills they need for an activity they enjoy ... and, perhaps, enjoy sharing.
I never said or implied that the OP's friend was, in your words, an arrogant idiot. Your mind-reading and selective quotation have failed you again.
As to whether textual criticism is an entry-level subject, I don't see any point grinding it out with you. Been there, done that.
I never said that either. His friend certainly comes across that way in some kind of way.
I do, however, despise church leaders who will not hire a good minister because he doesn’t use the KJVO or the ASV1901 for that matter. I prefer the ASV1901 if I had to choose an older translation, but I prefer the NASB1977 or 1995, the NKJV and the NASB.
In Spanish we have the same issue. Many prefer the Reina Valera 1960 even if they don’t understand what they’re reading, because there are a lot of words people just don’t use anymore. I prefer the LBLA or NBLH which are the equivalents of the NASB 1995.
Anyway, let’s not assume too much 👍😁👌
DAL
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DAL said:
I do, however, despise church leaders who will not hire a good minister because he doesn’t use the KJVO or the ASV1901 for that matter. I prefer the ASV1901 if I had to choose an older translation, but I prefer the NASB1977 or 1995, the NKJV and the NASB.
You're on the same page as the OP's friend, who is against KJVO = "KJV Onlyism".
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Lee said:DAL said:
I do, however, despise church leaders who will not hire a good minister because he doesn’t use the KJVO or the ASV1901 for that matter. I prefer the ASV1901 if I had to choose an older translation, but I prefer the NASB1977 or 1995, the NKJV and the NASB.
You're on the same page as the OP's friend, who is against KJVO = "KJV Onlyism".
Yep, I’m just not “constantly at war” because of that. I even don’t waste my time with those who say “You must pray using Thee and Thou...” I got better things to do 👍😁👌
DAL
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DAL said:Lee said:DAL said:
I do, however, despise church leaders who will not hire a good minister because he doesn’t use the KJVO or the ASV1901 for that matter. I prefer the ASV1901 if I had to choose an older translation, but I prefer the NASB1977 or 1995, the NKJV and the NASB.
You're on the same page as the OP's friend, who is against KJVO = "KJV Onlyism".
Yep, I’m just not “constantly at war” because of that. I even don’t waste my time with those who say “You must pray using Thee and Thou...” I got better things to do 👍😁👌
DAL
Complete misrepresentation. KJVO’s do much damage to the body of Christ.
It is the KJVO’s who initiate the trouble...w. rife misinformation that demands a factual rejoinder.
Carry on. Thanks for the input anyway.
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If you are serious about studying this, I highly recommend you get a copy of Krans' book, Beyond What Is Written: Erasmus and Beza as Conjectural Critics of the New Testament. The ISBN is 978-90-04-15286-1.
Bad news...it is a Brill publication. It won't be cheap.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Yes, I have seen these resources online. I fully intend to acquire them soon.
I was a (minor) contributor to the following recent work on this topic, which, IMO, interacts w. the most current scholarly consensus on this topic (it’s actually the most thorough I have ever read on this issue).
https://www.advanceministries.org/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=54
Thank you much for these suggestions. Wallace also has some excellent (free) courses on the subject of textual criticism through biblicaltraining.org. Highly informative.
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Doc B said:
If you are serious about studying this, I highly recommend you get a copy of Krans' book, Beyond What Is Written: Erasmus and Beza as Conjectural Critics of the New Testament. The ISBN is 978-90-04-15286-1.
Bad news...it is a Brill publication. It won't be cheap.
FWIW:
HERE is a precis of this volume. Begin at time 1:01:35 (lasts about 16 or 17 minutes).
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Puddin’ said:
Yes, I have seen these resources online. I fully intend to acquire them soon.
I was a (minor) contributor to the following recent work on this topic, which, IMO, interacts w. the most current scholarly consensus on this topic (it’s actually the most thorough I have ever read on this issue).
https://www.advanceministries.org/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=54
Thank you much for these suggestions. Wallace also has some excellent (free) courses on the subject of textual criticism through biblicaltraining.org. Highly informative.
Righteous spinach too!
https://www.advanceministries.org/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=18
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:Puddin’ said:
Yes, I have seen these resources online. I fully intend to acquire them soon.
I was a (minor) contributor to the following recent work on this topic, which, IMO, interacts w. the most current scholarly consensus on this topic (it’s actually the most thorough I have ever read on this issue).
https://www.advanceministries.org/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=54
Thank you much for these suggestions. Wallace also has some excellent (free) courses on the subject of textual criticism through biblicaltraining.org. Highly informative.
Righteous spinach too!
https://www.advanceministries.org/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=18
In ”all things“ give thanks & stuff 🤪!
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I did purchase Gurry’s work on the CBGM last night, just not so sure I’m prepared to tackle it just yet.
From what I understand it is very intense and effectually rewriting textual criticism as we have known it for the last century or so.
Very intrigued by it nonetheless 👍.
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Puddin’ said:
I did purchase Gurry’s work on the CBGM last night,
I highly recommend you read Wasserman's book before trying to tackle Gurry's. If you don't, the terminology (jargon) will strangle you.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
I highly recommend you read Wasserman's book before trying to tackle Gurry's. If you don't, the terminology (jargon) will strangle you.
Wasserman and Gurry are co-authors of that book. [:)]
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