Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser: Logos versus Kindle

See [OT] Lexham Press: Why cheaper on Kindle??

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024144#Comment_1024144

Just having instant access to the 1350 bible verses identified in the scriputure index as you are reading the book makes getting the Logos version a no-brainer.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024160#Comment_1024160

Just having instant access to the 1350 bible verses identified in the scriputure index as you are reading the book makes getting the Logos version a no-brainer.

Not being difficult, Robert, but only it you think Mr Heiser got it right. Else, you're out $27.50 (which would be my situation).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024161#Comment_1024161

Just having instant access to the 1350 bible verses identified in the scriputure index as you are reading the book makes getting the Logos version a no-brainer.

Not being difficult, Robert, but only it you think Mr Heiser got it right. Else, you're out $27.50 (which would be my situation).

Well, I guess that is the chance we take on just about any academic work in this area. At least for Stephen, Faithlife will allow him to make that calculation within 30 days with no monetary risk.

David A Egolf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024160#Comment_1024160

Just having instant access to the 1350 bible verses identified in the scriputure index as you are reading the book makes getting the Logos version a no-brainer.

The Associate Pastor at our church handed me a hard copy while turning to apologize to my wife. (He knew she was on a campaign to reduce my extensive paper library.) He was interested since Dr. Heiser had been his Hebrew professor and the pastor was well aware of Heiser's views.

It took me about a month to purchase the Logos edition. There is one page at the front of the book which is filled with references to substantiate his claims. I made my Logos purchase just so I could work through those Biblical citations in one sitting.

Of course, now, the Logos mobile app on my iPhone would have allowed me to scan that page full of reference with one quick photo. But that has only been available recently.

David A Egolf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024165#Comment_1024165

Just having instant access to the 1350 bible verses identified in the scriputure index as you are reading the book makes getting the Logos version a no-brainer.

Not being difficult, Robert, but only it you think Mr Heiser got it right. Else, you're out $27.50 (which would be my situation).

Well, I guess that is the chance we take on just about any academic work in this area. At least for Stephen, Faithlife will allow him to make that calculation within 30 days with no monetary risk.

I had to spend quite a bit of time with the book and hold a lot of material in abeyance while I pondered. 30 days may not be enough time. Some of it has to "sink in".

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024171#Comment_1024171

Just having instant access to the 1350 bible verses identified in the scriputure index as you are reading the book makes getting the Logos version a no-brainer.

Not being difficult, Robert, but only it you think Mr Heiser got it right. Else, you're out $27.50 (which would be my situation).

Well, I guess that is the chance we take on just about any academic work in this area. At least for Stephen, Faithlife will allow him to make that calculation within 30 days with no monetary risk.

I had to spend quite a bit of time with the book and hold a lot of material in abeyance while I pondered. 30 days may not be enough time. Some of it has to "sink in".

David, I agree that it does take a while to sink in. Dr. Heiser does a great job of synthesizing the material to make it more accessible to everyone though. He also has some videos on his website at drmsh.com that you really need to review before digging in.

The book is spoken of favorably by Tremper Longman, Jon Goldingay and Darrell Bock here and you can google plenty of other reviews to help you decide if it is worth your time and $27.50 (was $27.05 for me with Texas sales tax).

Personally, for me, it has connected quite of few dots and brought many things into focus regarding the "weird parts" of the Bible.

Happy studying!!

I'm not so sure whether the Kindle price was set by Lexham Press, or Amazon forced them into such low price. It certainly seems underpriced considering all the research and effort that has gone into this work.

Amazon generally tries to get customers to buy stuff on their own platform with all possible means, including selling products under price.

And here's an excerpt from Amazon's publisher terms:

"To the extent not prohibited by applicable laws, we have sole and complete discretion to set the retail customer price at which your Books are sold through the Program."

To me that seems just another case of substantive unconscionability.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024186#Comment_1024186

Wow, that is amazing that Amazon insists on that much control.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024208#Comment_1024208

Wow, that is amazing that Amazon insists on that much control.

One of the greatest bullies in Silicon Valley. (See the link in my signature...)

I'm frequently disappointed about Logos pricing, but I must say, I'm much happier spending $25 with Logos than spending $3 with Amazon, as these $25 will mostly go into the pockets of happy employees, compared to the $3 going mostly into the pocket of a stingy billionaire. Of course not everyone can afford doing that, so I'm not condemning anyone who buys from Amazon.

Stephen Ekeroth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024211#Comment_1024211

I'm frequently disappointed about Logos pricing, but I must say, I'm much happier spending $25 with Logos than spending $3 with Amazon, as these $25 will mostly go into the pockets of happy employees, compared to the $3 going mostly into the pocket of a stingy billionaire. Of course not everyone can afford doing that, so I'm not condemning anyone who buys from Amazon.

Thank you for not condemning anyone who buys from Amazon because sometimes price does matter. I am aware of the pressures that Amazon can bring to the marketplace that are in some way similar to what Walmart does smaller retailers, but unless laws are changed or there is antitrust litigation, it is the present reality.

While I recognize the value that Logos brings with indexing and other features, at times I've been quite happy to read the free or low priced Faith Life e-books (Vyrso) without links or page numbers. There have also been times when I originally bought an inexpensive version of a book (i.e. Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology) and later purchased the Logos version.

Perhaps in order to compete with Amazon, Logos should consider multiple editions of a book at different price points. Surely it must be easy to strip out the indexing.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024170#Comment_1024170

There is one page at the front of the book which is filled with references to substantiate his claims.

Not to side-track the discussion, but the issue is not so much whether Heiser can point to verses that he thinks support his claims, but plausibility of his interpretations and the coherence of his view(s) generally.

Frankly, his discussion on Foreknowledge/Free Will, an area I know some about, was ridiculous and made me lose faith in his ability to correctly guide me through areas I'm less knowledgeable in. (e.g., He failed to draw some basic conceptual distinctions that are normal in this field and that would have prevented him from some confusions/mistakes.) Other parts of his book didn't strike me as being that groundbreaking, but were being sold as such... but maybe that's just due to my personal experience?

(I should add that I don't think Heiser is off in his broad outline, maybe just some specifics, and I'm still glad to have the book in my Logos library.)

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024215#Comment_1024215

Surely it must be easy to strip out the indexing.

Being pedantic - it's not an indexing issue but a tagging one

Indexing of resources is required within the Logos environment for us to be able to search them

Tagging gives added value such as ensuring that cross-reference links work, setting of milestones, etc

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024238#Comment_1024238

Being pedantic - it's not an indexing issue but a tagging one

Indexing of resources is required within the Logos environment for us to be able to search them

Tagging gives added value such as ensuring that cross-reference links work, setting of milestones, etc

We know that at least some of the tagging (Bible tagging) is automated by some sort of algorithm. It's not as though Faithlife is assigning some employee to magically, instantaneously, manually tag all the Bible references in our personal books.

There is no reason, in principle, that non-Bible resource tagging couldn't also be handled by an algorithm in the future. In fact, I would be surprised if they aren't already working on this, if not doing some it right now.

Theoretically, the actual man-hours of work it takes to tag resources should be minimal... if only in the future. Of course there is quality control, server maintenance, etc. But if nothing else, one does wonder why we don't see the price of resources drop over time after the initial, heavy overhead costs of tagging have been covered. Once the cost of paying Jimmy to tag AYBD has been covered, it's all profit from that point forward. He doesn't have to retag the resource each year.

In some other digital mediums, we see high prices for new releases that then drop over time for the reasons mentioned.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024228#Comment_1024228

There is one page at the front of the book which is filled with references to substantiate his claims.

Not to side-track the discussion, but the issue is not so much whether Heiser can point to verses that he thinks support his claims, but plausibility of his interpretations and the coherence of his view(s) generally.

Frankly, his discussion on Foreknowledge/Free Will, an area I know some about, was ridiculous and made me lose faith in his ability to correctly guide me through areas I'm less knowledgeable in. (e.g., He failed to draw some basic conceptual distinctions that are normal in this field and that would have prevented him from some confusions/mistakes.) Other parts of his book didn't strike me as being that groundbreaking, but were being sold as such... but maybe that's just due to my personal experience?

(I should add that I don't think Heiser is off in his broad outline, maybe just some specifics, and I'm still glad to have the book in my Logos library.)

J, I was completely confident surviving the whole year, pretty much occupying the opposite 'side' (ok, maybe there was that 'once').

But your post here nailed it. Each sentence. I also have the book ... the $3 version. There's much better choices on the subject, though I suppose pointing out real verses in the Bible may well have immenent value to some.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024240#Comment_1024240

But if nothing else, one does wonder why we don't see the price of resources drop over time after the initial, heavy overhead costs of tagging have been covered. Once the cost of paying Jimmy to tag AYBD has been covered, it's all profit from that point forward. He doesn't have to retag the resource each year.

Of course this speaks to the overall business model of Faithlife of which only those who are "in the know" know. I certainly am not one of those but, if something is worth more because it is better than something else, why would the price necessarily change in the future? If it was worth more in the past, to me it would make sense that it would be worth more in the future unless something changes. Sure if would be nice to have lower prices on everything but that again speaks to the business model of Faithlife. If they continue to maintain a strong business we all benefit.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024244#Comment_1024244

J, I was completely confident surviving the whole year, pretty much occupying the opposite 'side' (ok, maybe there was that 'once').

I've found my New Year's resolution then [:P]

Paul Caneparo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024215#Comment_1024215

I'm frequently disappointed about Logos pricing, but I must say, I'm much happier spending $25 with Logos than spending $3 with Amazon, as these $25 will mostly go into the pockets of happy employees, compared to the $3 going mostly into the pocket of a stingy billionaire. Of course not everyone can afford doing that, so I'm not condemning anyone who buys from Amazon.

Perhaps in order to compete with Amazon, Logos should consider multiple editions of a book at different price points. Surely it must be easy to strip out the indexing.

I doubt Faithlife would offer different versions, but I'd certainly like to see them making books that don't make it out of pre-pub being made available in Faithlife eBooks. Even better I'd like pre-pub books being made available as soon as they are listed without the Logos tagging, as I assume Faithlife receive a digital copy of the book from the publisher, and then if the book makes it out of pre-pub we could receive an update with the tagging. This way we'd be able to receive the book quicker and not be tempted to buy elsewhere. Plus Faithlife benefit by getting money earlier and not just promises to buy. I'd say that's a win, win for Faithlife and their customers.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024245#Comment_1024245

Of course this speaks to the overall business model of Faithlife of which only those who are "in the know" know. I certainly am not one of those but, if something is worth more because it is better than something else, why would the price necessarily change in the future? If it was worth more in the past, to me it would make sense that it would be worth more in the future unless something changes. Sure if would be nice to have lower prices on everything but that again speaks to the business model of Faithlife. If they continue to maintain a strong business we all benefit.

Not to get into a dispute over certain economic theories, but there is no fact-of-the-matter about something being "worth more" when it comes to this sort of thing. There is only what people are willing to pay for it. And I suspect this is the real reason we don't see any permanent price drop over time. (Assuming we don't, I haven't really tracked anything.)

I wasn't trying to suggest that Faithlife *should* drop their prices once the cost of the initial tagging has been covered. I was only pointing out that the "but they have to go through each resource and tag it!" excuse isn't very convincing, at least not after the product has been tagged for the last 5 years. They can shift to other excuses: server maintenance, quality control, future innovations in tagging etc. There are other reasons why prices for digital items don't drop and some of those would explain why a digital book wouldn't drop in price as fast as a digital game, but that's beside my point.

Strong business needs more than strong prices, they need competition (from the consumer's point of view). Right now Faithlife doesn't have much by way of direct competition. If Amazon ever decides to start tagging Kindle resources Faithlife would be in serious trouble.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024240#Comment_1024240

Once the cost of paying Jimmy to tag AYBD has been covered, it's all profit from that point forward. He doesn't have to retag the resource each year.

Not every year, but resources tagged years ago can get updated due to new or improved tags. Another case would be adding links to other resources that hadn't been in Logos when the tagging was previously done.

In some other digital mediums, we see high prices for new releases that then drop over time for the reasons mentioned.

I can't find the post, but Faithlife did lower prices this year for a number of resources.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024250#Comment_1024250

If Amazon ever decides to start tagging Kindle resources Faithlife would be in serious trouble.

It doesn't seem likely that Amazon would offer something like Hebrew or Greek morphological tagging.

Besides, the diverse types of tagging only work because of the software features, and I don't see Amazon getting into the Bible study software market.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024251#Comment_1024251

Thanks for the input.

Another case would be adding links to other resources that hadn't been in Logos when the tagging was previously done.

I don't want to get into too much of a back-and-forth here as if I'm trying to prove Faithlife is jipping us on the cost of tagging. But adding new resources would just involve adding one resource to the database that the algorithm draws from and then rebuilding the library. More processing power rather than man-power. As a non-programmer, I'm sure my description of that is slightly off.

I'm really just trying to dispel the notion that Faithlife has some sweatshop of workers combing through each resource word-by-word looking for words or phrases to tag. That's clearly not how it works for Bible references and there is no reason it can't be done with non-Bible references and they are likely already doing so to some degree or working on doing so.

It doesn't seem likely that Amazon would offer something like Hebrew or Greek morphological tagging.
Besides, the diverse types of tagging only work because of the software features, and I don't see Amazon getting into the Bible study software market.

Tagging related specifically to original language Bible research, sure. I agree. But Logos is a lot more than that (or they were trying to be with Noet) and the immediate point of reference was Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm.

Stephen Ekeroth

Thank you to everyone for your insights and explanations. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, but since I only have a passing curiosity in the book at this point, I am more likely to spend the $3 at Amazon as opposed to the $25. If the book were to prove extremely valuable it is likely that at some point I would purchase the Logos edition. Logos software is invaluable to me (I've been a customer since the 90s starting with version 1.0 on floppy disks and I have over 5500 books and resources), but I also need to be a steward of the financial resources that have been entrusted to me.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024299#Comment_1024299

The occasional purchase of ebooks or other items on Amazon really is not the issue. (I still do the same despite my dispute with them.)

Some of the problems with Amazon include them owning more than a third of all global internet hardware (including, as far as I know the FL servers), access to "bugs" in millions of American (and global) homes, tax evasion strategies, unethical treatment of employees, systematic destruction of competitors, sometimes by selling stuff under price, just so that people become even more dependent, and of course the strict control they exercise over independent publishers, app developers, sellers and other contractors.

Good stewardship, for me, includes a good choice on who gets the larger chunks of my money. And of course the most affordable prices can be achieved only by less ethical business practices. That's not restricted to Amazon, but includes companies that have clothes produced under unethical working conditions in SE Asia, food grown on plantations that once belonged to local farmers, and were taken from them through illegal land grabs, have phones assembled in factories where workers frequently commit suicide because of the working conditions etc. Sadly, in most cases it's almost impossible to buy stuff that's been produced 100% ethically, or even to know where exactly it's coming from.

In short, others pay the price, so that we have the luxury of such affordable prices for many goods.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024327#Comment_1024327

Some of the problems with Amazon include them owning more than a third of all global internet hardware (including, as far as I know the FL servers)

I've not seen this figure before and my first attempt to verify it obviously went astray as I was looking at backbone, exchange points etc. Could you point me to a confirming site? Thanks. I'm especially interested as my nephew works for a competing networking firm. Or did you mean AWS has about a third of the cloud market?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024345#Comment_1024345

Some of the problems with Amazon include them owning more than a third of all global internet hardware (including, as far as I know the FL servers)

I've not seen this figure before and my first attempt to verify it obviously went astray as I was looking at backbone, exchange points etc. Could you point me to a confirming site? Thanks. I'm especially interested as my nephew works for a competing networking firm. Or did you mean AWS has about a third of the cloud market?

Well, AWS is Amazon ("Amazon Web Services"). How much data do they share with Amazon.com Inc.? Impossible to say. It's certainly within the realm of possibilities that Amazon uses data from AWS for profiling. I've been trying to get insight into my own profile and PII through a GDPR request, but am being persistently ignored by them...

I'm not aware of Amazon operating any backbone infrastructure etc. but that'd be neither nearly as profitable as cloud services and hosting, nor, as far as I'm aware, aid them much with data collection.

As for 33% market share of cloud services, look here:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/27/microsoft-gains-cloud-market-share-in-q1-but-aws-still-dominates.html

Remember the AWS outage a few years ago? The sheer amount of services that went down should give a general idea of how much AWS/Amazon actually controls. It's just too much power in the hands of a single company.

Thaddeus Billman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024211#Comment_1024211

I'm frequently disappointed about Logos pricing, but I must say, I'm much happier spending $25 with Logos than spending $3 with Amazon, as these $25 will mostly go into the pockets of happy employees, compared to the $3 going mostly into the pocket of a stingy billionaire. Of course not everyone can afford doing that, so I'm not condemning anyone who buys from Amazon.

Amazon's maximum cut on eBooks is 30%, the rest goes to the publisher. Amazon's profit margin (which actually doesn't go into anyone's pocket directly, let alone exclusively a "greedy billionaire") is far lower than Faithlife's based on public information and comments made here by Bob.

Also, Faithlife (through Lexham) chose to temporarily price it at $3 at Amazon while sticking their loyal customers with full price here. To me, that is a slap in the face. I'm not saying the Logos edition should be the same price, but when Faithlife choose to discount a book by $10 on Kindle a $10 discount from the (higher) Logos price would be nice.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024525#Comment_1024525

when Faithlife choose to discount a book by $10 on Kindle a $10 discount from the (higher) Logos price would be nice.

[Y]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024389#Comment_1024389

Well, AWS is Amazon ("Amazon Web Services"). How much data do they share with Amazon.com Inc.? Impossible to say. It's certainly within the realm of possibilities that Amazon uses data from AWS for profiling. I've been trying to get insight into my own profile and PII through a GDPR request, but am being persistently ignored by them...

Thanks for clarifying that you meant "cloud" not "internet" which makes your statement make sense. When one is surrounded by people making a career in them, one doesn't assume that is what was meant.

Bill Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024255#Comment_1024255

I'm really just trying to dispel the notion that Faithlife has some sweatshop of workers combing through each resource word-by-word looking for words or phrases to tag. That's clearly not how it works for Bible references and there is no reason it can't be done with non-Bible references and they are likely already doing so to some degree or working on doing so.

I don't know whether or not Faithlife has employees who manually tag Bible verses, but I can tell you from creating a number of personal books that some of the authors I focused on (one was E.W. Hengstenberg) didn't always follow a set convention for citing Scripture verses. Yes, the algorithm would pick up the easy references (John 3:16; Jn. 3:16, etc.) but the algorithm would totally miss a reference citation such as "verse 16 of chapter 3 of John's gospel" for example. Those types of citations had to be manually tagged, or at least they required manual tagging when I was doing those works a few years ago.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024567#Comment_1024567

As Bill mentioned, parsing Bible references isn't as easy as it seems.

Would "is 1" be a Bible reference?
Does "John 1, 3" refer to chapters 1 and 3, or chapter 1, verse 3?
Does "Jn 11-2" refer to chapters 11 to 12, or chapter 11, verse 2?

No algorithm is going to get it right 100% of the time, and even if people are involved, mistakes do slip through the cracks and some resources need to be updated after going live.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024587#Comment_1024587

I wouldn't be surprised if Logos had a more powerful algorithm than the one used for PBB. For instance, suppose you had "John 1 and 2" the PBB algorithm will catch John 1, but not 2. But it really wouldn't be too hard to have an algorithm that caught 2 by a rule that looked back so many characters for another reference.

But the fact that I have found wrongly tagged Bible references kind of proves the point that they are using an algorithm and even the quality control they are already doing isn't perfect.

No, the algorithm isn't perfect. I didn't say it was. Yes, they need humans to do quality control and some things that are currently too complicated for an algorithm or AI type of software.

My point didn't depend on that. My point was never "Faithlife doesn't even use humans to do tagging!"

My point was Logos clearly relies upon an algorithm for some of their tagging. And it's only natural that Faithlife will continue to try and automate this process.

My point was Michael Heiser's book on Faithlife doesn't cost $25 because they paid some guy to go through, word by word, and tag every Bible reference. At most, they had someone (or a few) go through and see if any potential tags were missed.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024525#Comment_1024525

Amazon's profit margin (which actually doesn't go into anyone's pocket directly, let alone exclusively a "greedy billionaire")

Oh, come on...I doubt Bezos was even a millionaire when he started Amazon (he took a $250,000 loan from his parents to get the company going). These things change with economic vicissitudes, but Bezos was recently listed as the richest person on the planet. Obviously, PLENTY of profit is ending up in his pockets. Whether he's greedy depends on perspective; I'm familiar with some controversies that could be described as anti-competitive or hostile. Their work place practices have been condemned (although they may have improved). Let's be clear: Bezos is making BANK.

is far lower than Faithlife's based on public information and comments made here by Bob.

Yeah...because VOLUME. When you're big enough to tell the USPS how to run their ops, you've got crazy influence. Amazon surfs the Walmart effect. They've got over 100 million Prime users. Multiply that by razor thin margins and you got the largest internet company in the world run by the richest guy in the world. Besides all that, AWS is a cash cow, generating absurd margins. PROFITS GALORE!!!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024596#Comment_1024596

It's funny that a few days ago many Logos users were coming to the defense of Faithlife as a for profit business that may not give to charity--because the occasional sales and the amazing product were their own sort of sufficient charity.

But when it comes to Amazon, the logic changes to evil Jeff Bezos! nope.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024680#Comment_1024680

You make too many assumptions as if all forum members were the same, or have the same motivations. As it turns out, one forum member who is very vocal against Amazon was wronged by them (interesting read if you have the time & inclination).

Stephen Ekeroth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024748#Comment_1024748

It is amazing how many different directions this thread went, but tagging and other enhanced features aside, not to mention the ethics of a huge conglomerate/monopoly like Amazon, I am still left to ponder $3 for a book vs. versus $25. I wonder how much the Amazon channel impacts Logos sales or if by matching Amazon prices for a non-enhanced version of the book, would FaithLife revenue be impacted. Decisions, decisions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024767#Comment_1024767

Well, it's still an assumption that the price of $3 was set by Lexham. It could well be the case, but it's even likely to have been dictated by Amazon.

If the latter is the case, should Amazon's dictation have an impact on the Logos price of the book?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024774#Comment_1024774

Stephen, hope you already got your kindle book because the price went back up to $5.99. By the way, it was 40% or so off here last month (or was it October or November). Timing is everything.

Anyway, thanks for the tip on Frank Viola. That was a great interview he had with Heiser.

You can see it here if anyone is interested:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/michaelheiser/

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024680#Comment_1024680

But when it comes to Amazon, the logic changes to evil Jeff Bezos!

Not sure that anyone here suggested or implied Bezos or Amazon is evil...although I'm sure such people exist. However, I bet FL employees get to go to the restroom pretty much whenever they want. Amazon employees complained that they didn't experience such luxuries. It's not the profit alone that tells the tale, but how it is extracted that matters.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1024817#Comment_1024817

There are two sides to every story and one can find articles where Amazon denies the restroom break story.

Also, search for similar disgruntled complaints by Faithlife employees. They are out there. I remember reading one maybe five years ago about some employees complaining about the draconian work conditions at Faithlife.

Anecdotally, I used to work for a place that was described on the internet as being the most racist, sexist place the former employee had ever encountered. This was completely false in my experience.

I've read Jan Krohn's grievances with Amazon and, frankly, I don't have any reason to put stock in what he says. What Jan has said about pricing strikes me as economically ignorant (just one recent example: Heiser's book being "underpriced" in light of the amount of work put into it... that's not how economics works--unless you buy into the Marxist theories of labor values, surplus values, etc.), so I'm not inclined to see his remarks as much more than having an ax to grind with the company that he feels has gone after him unfairly.

I didn't assume that the people who were praising Faithlife in the other thread are the same people who were bashing Amazon in the current thread. I just thought it was funny to see the two different and inconsistent attitudes.

For those who hate Amazon because of its profit margin, tell me how much profit Faithlife is making and why that amount of profit is fair as opposed to Amazon's amount of profit which is unfair.

For those who hate Amazon because they read a report of some disgruntled employees, please dig up the disgruntled Faithlife employee reports and tell me why you dismiss them but not the Amazon ones. (You can easily do a google search and find the disgruntled FL employees, I just did it.)

The people on the other forum had the right idea to acknowledge the way Faithlife has made their lives better by providing them with a useful, affordable product. But it's even moreso with Amazon. Amazon provides useful, affordable products. Faithlife has also created jobs for hundreds of people, giving them a paycheck each week (bi-weekly/monthly/quarterly). Amazon has created thousands of jobs. People complain about how much control Amazon has over the postal system. This is more economic ignorance... without the business that Amazon has given to postal systems, they would be a lot worse off financially.

Anecdotally, Amazon has allowed me to buy books that otherwise would have been outside of my financial ability. Not to mention the space that Amazon has saved me from having to physically store books. Amazon has improved my quality of life. And if you've ever bought anything from Amazon and been happy with the purchase, then Amazon has improved your quality of life too. Same for Faithlife.

The real thing going on here, I suspect, is jealousy. We don't like to see others succeed far more than us or our in-group. (Edit: I shouldn't say this. There could be many things going on. Maybe some people just haven't given much thought about why they are unhappy with Amazon being as big as it is even though they'd love it if Faithlife were as big etc.)

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025155#Comment_1025155

There are two sides to every story ...

I don't think you should be hinting that the FL Christmas Masacre might have been untoward. They did an update to their software later. See the logic?