OT: George Will's Prognosticating.

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Christians have been parsing Scripture carefully since the time of the apostles. Can that sometimes become a dry, academic "slicing and dicing" exercise? Sure! But if so, the blame is in ourselves, and not in the tool.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025022#Comment_1025022

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Christians have been parsing Scripture carefully since the time of the apostles. Can that sometimes become a dry, academic "slicing and dicing" exercise? Sure! But if so, the blame is in ourselves, and not in the tool.

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

I'd argue (1) the church isn't being well served (software) and (2) Logos' main model is pouring information (sermons) into a progressively less interested group of believers.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025030#Comment_1025030

You're wondering, what's this got to do with Logos??

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

What would you, Denise, have FL do instead?

Dave Moser

Logos' main model is pouring information (sermons) into a progressively less interested group of believers.

2 Tim 4:1-5

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025282#Comment_1025282

You're wondering, what's this got to do with Logos??

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

What would you, Denise, have FL do instead?

Now, SineNomine, you can't have that limited an imagination. If I remember correctly a few years back, Logos yanked the cord (and many peoples' lives) on developing tools for the Catholic folks. I thought the Catholics probably had the best chance for a Christian-learning model. The Baptists even more. 'Churches.'

I'm not trying to offend you, but (so far), all the participants can think of is one-way sermons (complete with illustrations). Plus more and more searches for counting instances of take-your-pick ... it's amazing. Something, I doubt the Pastoral writer ever had in mind for folks' eternal salvation.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025297#Comment_1025297

Denise, are you trying to provoke me into making statements about exegetical practices that insure you never have to address the hard issues, risk having to change a position, or horror of horrors actually have to change how you live? Shouldn't serious Bible study be measured by the daily uprooting of habitual views and secure theology? But since you come from "the text, the whole text and nothing but the text" and I come from "the liturgy, the divine liturgy, and everything in the liturgy", I know we wouldn't accidentally be of the same opinion of the late-1800's dappled nag.[;)]

I'd be happy to even get a workflow based on the various criticisms described in Pontifical Biblical Commission. The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church. Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1993. as a authentic first step acceptable to much of the mainline churches. It might not be ideal but it has a potential to ask embarrassing questions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025030#Comment_1025030

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

That's my point - that's not all I see in the software. I see every book I studied in seminary on a tablet smaller than a trade paperback. I see an electronic library that has some of the greatest works from every era in church history. I see commentaries, devotionals, systematic theologies, dictionaries and encyclopedias. I see more English translations that I can shake a stick at. I see critical editions of both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, along with grammars, lexicons and study aids.

What I do with it is on me.

John Fidel

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Denise, I usually try not to get into these types of discussions with those that are smarter and more clever than I am, which you are. But I am confused...

So.... Logos is marketing only to pastors and scholars?? or Logos is only really useful to pastors and scholars? or Libby is the right product for the masses, that are shrinking according to the article? or What?

The article snippet, without context, appears to be a reflection on the effectiveness of the "Church" ( universal not any particular denomination) and really has nothing to do with Bible software or how that software is used. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this forum.

High-end Bible software is a small and specialized market. Many of those in the pews find the free Bible apps available sufficient for their study or still prefer paper resources. I know as I have discussed Bible software with them.

So, forgoing a market you have a strong presence in to chase a market that does not see a need to pay for Bible software is what you are proposing?? Quit expanding features and just publish resources? Why publish more advanced resources as most of those in the pews do not require them? Why bother with original languages or ancient texts as most of the people in the pews do not need them? Most of the resources you have expressed excitement for are not resources useful to those in the pews.... Please tell me... What does it mean to be in the Church and the excitement??

I do not use emojis to lighten the tone of my comments... consider them implied.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025318#Comment_1025318

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

That's my point - that's not all I see in the software. I see every book I studied in seminary on a tablet smaller than a trade paperback. I see an electronic library that has some of the greatest works from every era in church history. I see commentaries, devotionals, systematic theologies, dictionaries and encyclopedias. I see more English translations that I can shake a stick at. I see critical editions of both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, along with grammars, lexicons and study aids.

What I do with it is on me.

EastTN (which if indeed one of the stars on the Tennessee flag, and the most nicest area in the lower-48), I'm not decrying the gorgeous Logos for pastors. I'm speaking about the other 99 at your church.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025299#Comment_1025299

Denise, are you trying to provoke me into making statements about exegetical practices that insure you never have to address the hard issues, risk having to change a position, or horror of horrors actually have to change how you live? Shouldn't serious Bible study be measured by the daily uprooting of habitual views and secure theology? But since you come from "the text, the whole text and nothing but the text" and I come from "the liturgy, the divine liturgy, and everything in the liturgy", I know we wouldn't accidentally be of the same opinion of the late-1800's dappled nag.

I'd be happy to even get a workflow based on the various criticisms described in Pontifical Biblical Commission. The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church. Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1993. as a authentic first step acceptable to much of the mainline churches. It might not be ideal but it has a potential to ask embarrassing questions.

MJ, you (easily) out-did me. Dappled nag. And, I don't wish to violate the forum rules (except for this thread, of course), but 'the text' is far more un-traditional (liberal) than the modern-day churches. And I make no demands on others ... George said it best ... modern-day gnosticism. But I will always wonder if someone turned Ignatius in to the authorities (that speaks to the major divide, that began approximately 'then').

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025337#Comment_1025337

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Denise, I usually try not to get into these types of discussions with those that are smarter and more clever than I am, which you are. But I am confused...

So.... Logos is marketing only to pastors and scholars?? or Logos is only really useful to pastors and scholars? or Libby is the right product for the masses, that are shrinking according to the article? or What?

The article snippet, without context, appears to be a reflection on the effectiveness of the "Church" ( universal not any particular denomination) and really has nothing to do with Bible software or how that software is used. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this forum.

High-end Bible software is a small and specialized market. Many of those in the pews find the free Bible apps available sufficient for their study or still prefer paper resources. I know as I have discussed Bible software with them.

So, forgoing a market you have a strong presence in to chase a market that does not see a need to pay for Bible software is what you are proposing?? Quit expanding features and just publish resources? Why publish more advanced resources as most of those in the pews do not require them? Why bother with original languages or ancient texts as most of the people in the pews do not need them? Most of the resources you have expressed excitement for are not resources useful to those in the pews.... Please tell me... What does it mean to be in the Church and the excitement??

I do not use emojis to lighten the tone of my comments... consider them implied.

John, first, thank you for being a gentleman. So, my answers are also meant in kindness.

- Whether the (organized) church succeeds or not, is of no significance to me. My beliefs don't require them. And, remember 'none' in the snippet is not atheists .. it's folks that still believe. Just not 'churches'. My point speaks to (a) the increasingly poor job organized churches do, (b) the benefits sophisticated software can do for members for a more enriching experience, and (c) the apparently growing world of un-churched believers who would benefit from Logos.

- Your questions are classic greek debate .. hit the extreme, knowing not relevant. In this case, 'only', you know the answer to. Your question should rather be, the bulk of investment (by Logos), the internal designs, and yes, the marketing.

- You mention high-end Bible software, and you make my point for me. Remember FL's expressed mission. There's an inherent dissonance. Maybe they should admit they're just a small specialized company. I don't agree. FL has the sophistication to become a far more valuable service to the church. And, just observing them, they seem like the only group that 'could' achieve their stated mission. The more simple, smaller groups are pretty much large book-mobiles.

- Lastly, I don't think I need tell you about excitement ... my guess, your church too. Here, in our little berg, the members move across denominations (not the pastors, of course), have Bible classes both sponsored, and unsponsored, argue Biblical points while eating pizza and beer, and group into larger efforts for community assistance (led by the jewish rabbi, the Catholic guy, and female pastors ... the guy pastors maybe other challenges).

Now, you'd likely say, Logos?? And I'd agree. Hard to use, internally focus'd, expensive (beyond the common free), and no apparent goals that I can see, beyond the academic/pastor world. Contrast what you 'could' combine with fun-to-use, wow library (already), functions to easily support discussion (no, not the obtruse FL community), functions tied to specific denominations (including bulk-buys, as many suggest), and functions to support daily Christian inter-acting.

And not even that hard. That's the surprise.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025297#Comment_1025297

You're wondering, what's this got to do with Logos??

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

What would you, Denise, have FL do instead?

Now, SineNomine, you can't have that limited an imagination. If I remember correctly a few years back, Logos yanked the cord (and many peoples' lives) on developing tools for the Catholic folks. I thought the Catholics probably had the best chance for a Christian-learning model. The Baptists even more. 'Churches.'

I'm not trying to offend you, but (so far), all the participants can think of is one-way sermons (complete with illustrations). Plus more and more searches for counting instances of take-your-pick ... it's amazing. Something, I doubt the Pastoral writer ever had in mind for folks' eternal salvation.

I'm not offended. I'm still hoping that you will answer my question.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025367#Comment_1025367

... my question ...

Well, first, each has opinions, mine just an opinion. And sitting outside the company, not in. Plus, whether they survive or not (Mr Bezo's point) is a customer issue. 30 years is average.

At L4, they chose a market and expensive solution (the platforms). As they moved forward, they're faced with trying to capture a larger share of a declining market ... BW already. Accordance is more heavily discounting. The Bible colleges and seminaries may work for a while. But most importantly (my point), the Christian world is changing. It's an opportunity.

Here, I'm guessing, but the expensive shift to web-driven (L8) also solves the L4 problem ... expense of coding, platform support, etc. Whoever is doing the web part seems quite talented. But they're tied to layers of legacy features I doubt many use (per feature). Even the forum has limited knowlegability.

They seemed to have recently shifted gears on their server support. Yes, Libby finally is alone in a cold dark world (joking). But, in between the desktop, mobiles, the web, Proclaim, and the new church management, the servers represent 'the gold'.

In my mind, they're on the cusp of a widened future. Or same old same old. And the churches are similarly at a point of what next?

The key, in my mind, is development cost ... FL is close to solving that (guessing). That opens the door to much easier entry vehicles for church members, integrating not only official church functions, but Christian functions. As MJ aludes to above, 'behavior'. Integrating home school. There's a long list, but most of the support pieces appear to be moving into place (at FL).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025367#Comment_1025367

I'm still hoping that you will answer my question.

Allow me to butt in ...

think about how scripture is used at the individual level especially noting the actual goals of such study - which vary by individual, their situation, their culture, their religious believes
think about how scripture is ideally used for the same individuals
think about how scripture is actually used in your church: how is/can Logos enhance that use for casual laity, laity with specific passions and involvements, super-devout laity, super-academic laity, church leaders - religious ed, plant management, liturgical planning, financial, social justice ..., professional staff, ordained staff?
think about how scripture is ideally used in your church for the same groups
think about how scripture is ideally studied in secular schools and in denominational seminaries, how it understands other religions in the global arena,
think about how technology could move that ideal and what advances have left in the dust piles of history that should be reclaimed

Now draw an imaginary circle around the portions that Logos tries to do? tries to do but does poorly? tries to do an succeeds barely? does a stellar job of?

Now think of Denise as Dona Quixote asking if Logos knows specifically which of the above items are specific goals?

I think of it as the gulf between the materials written for the high school senior/college freshman and the thrust of Logos. My congregation knows a whole lot more about narrative theology and literary criticism than they know about discourse analysis. My congregation knows a whole lot more about intertextual interpretation in/through worship than they do about specific Hebrew constructs. My congregation knows a whole lot more about praying/singing the psalms than. . .

At the beginning of Bible software, the Logos focus made sense - one used the computer for what the computer could do well within the space and time constraints. What computers can do has changed dramatically with the growth in natural language processing, knowledge management, and artificial intelligence. Has the vision of Bible software kept up?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025390#Comment_1025390

Well, first, each has opinions, mine just an opinion.

Indeed, and although MJ has given her answer to my question, I'm still waiting for yours. I understand that you want FL to stop doing various things it has been doing, but I'm asking what you want FL to do instead.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025432#Comment_1025432

Allow me to butt in ...

think about how scripture is used at the individual level especially noting the actual goals of such study - which vary by individual, their situation, their culture, their religious believes

think about how scripture is ideally used for the same individuals

think about how scripture is actually used in your church: how is/can Logos enhance that use for casual laity, laity with specific passions and involvements, super-devout laity, super-academic laity, church leaders - religious ed, plant management, liturgical planning, financial, social justice ..., professional staff, ordained staff?

think about how scripture is ideally used in your church for the same groups

think about how scripture is ideally studied in secular schools and in denominational seminaries, how it understands other religions in the global arena,

think about how technology could move that ideal and what advances have left in the dust piles of history that should be reclaimed

Now draw an imaginary circle around the portions that Logos tries to do? tries to do but does poorly? tries to do an succeeds barely? does a stellar job of?

These are, I think, very good questions. If I could envision some kind of FL product that journalists would use, my answers to some of them would me much less depressing.

I think of it as the gulf between the materials written for the high school senior/college freshman and the thrust of Logos. My congregation knows a whole lot more about narrative theology and literary criticism than they know about discourse analysis. My congregation knows a whole lot more about intertextual interpretation in/through worship than they do about specific Hebrew constructs. My congregation knows a whole lot more about praying/singing the psalms than. . .

I'm used to congregations that know hardly anything about any of these, but your point is well-made. As an aside, I've been lobbying intermittently on these forums for base packages with zero grammatical/linguistic stuff for some years now.

At the beginning of Bible software, the Logos focus made sense - one used the computer for what the computer could do well within the space and time constraints. What computers can do has changed dramatically with the growth in natural language processing, knowledge management, and artificial intelligence. Has the vision of Bible software kept up?

And neither has the median parishioner.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025467#Comment_1025467

Well, first, each has opinions, mine just an opinion.

Indeed, and although MJ has given her answer to my question, I'm still waiting for yours. I understand that you want FL to stop doing various things it has been doing, but I'm asking what you want FL to do instead.

Well, SineNomine, I'm familiar with the question, and how it plays out. Many, many times ... business world exec. "Now, exactly how do you undo years of neglect?"

Personally, I wouldn't try to 'change Logos' ... it works fine for the pastors. People would squeal. I'd quietly start anew in a couple of test evangelical churches, and I'd target Bible study and how folks work together ... in church, and away from. How women study ... they're more group oriented and structured. Guys tend to look more like Logos ... a study leader, cup of coffee and a clock. I'd include transportation planning, home repair, child care, and indirect medical support. Oh, yes, a food pantry. Does that sound radical? All the things Christians can (and do) share in.

I'm guessing, you're shaking your head.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025476#Comment_1025476

I'd quietly start anew in a couple of test evangelical churches, and I'd target Bible study and how folks work together ... in church, and away from.

Just when I thought we were on the same page ... no, no, start anew in a couple of test liturgical churches ....[;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025344#Comment_1025344

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

That's my point - that's not all I see in the software. I see every book I studied in seminary on a tablet smaller than a trade paperback. I see an electronic library that has some of the greatest works from every era in church history. I see commentaries, devotionals, systematic theologies, dictionaries and encyclopedias. I see more English translations that I can shake a stick at. I see critical editions of both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, along with grammars, lexicons and study aids.

What I do with it is on me.

EastTN (which if indeed one of the stars on the Tennessee flag, and the most nicest area in the lower-48), I'm not decrying the gorgeous Logos for pastors. I'm speaking about the other 99 at your church.

Thanks to the shoutout to my home state! I think you've put your finger on the key issue here. Logos isn't written for the other 99 in the congregation - it's written for pastors, seminary students and scholars. That's why it's so complicated and expensive. I wish it were simpler and less expensive, but there's a limit to what you can do there and still meet the needs of the current target audience.

There is clearly a role for bible software that meets other needs. My sense is that some of the other vendors have programs and packages that are better suited to the average congregant. I wouldn't be surprised if FaithLife made an effort to enter that market too at some point. I'd like to see that, but I also think it would be a difficult trick to pull off well. A stripped down version of the Logos program wouldn't work, and it would take a design team with a clear - and very different - vision of a program to pull it off well. While I suspect some of the same core technology could be reused, I doubt the same people could both programs well.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025476#Comment_1025476

I'd target Bible study and how folks work together ... in church, and away from

In an older age group, almost no one uses a phone, tablet, or bible during bible studies. Might have one person with a print bible, another might occasionally bring a laptop.

Both pastors provide handouts for their bible study, containing notes, scripture verses, and other information. Little interaction, information is mostly one-way.

I've heard that the women's groups are much more interactive/dynamic. They might read part of a book during the week, and discuss it for the study. I'd assume little to no technology used, since I don't generally see these people interacting with technology at other times.

The pastor might use a computer or laptop, and project it to show a YouTube video, but that's about it tech-wise.

I think we have one seminary-educated church member who uses BibleWorks for his personal study. Don't know of anyone who uses Logos. (I offered the free Fundamentals to a friend, and they weren't interested, so I gave it away to someone outside the church.)

Can't really see anything like Proclaim being used, as anyone with a smartphone turns it off and puts it away during service.

I'd include transportation planning, home repair, child care, and indirect medical support. Oh, yes, a food pantry. Does that sound radical? All the things Christians can (and do) share in.

The church has a van, nursery (during service), food pantry, and resource room, but none of them use any form of software. People use the telephone to arrange things like rides.

I can't see FL making inroads at that particular church, even with some radical new approach for church members themselves.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025490#Comment_1025490

I can't see FL making inroads at that particular church, even with some radical new approach for church members themselves.

May I suggest that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

How many homebound parishioners do you have who could be included in church activities through the use of technology ... think of when churches first started taking tapes of sermons to the homebound
How many parishioners could you get involved in midweek studies if they could do it on their own time ...no more babysitting issues or working late ...
If your Bible studies are one directional, could they become discussion groups after the participants have had a day or two to think about it
Which of your intentional groups could be strengthened by daily reminders - readings, prayers, personal commitments
Which of your groups are limited by cost of resources ...could ebooks reduce costs ...
Would the ability to push last minute needs - specific foods missing from the foodbank, volunteer needing a replacement - assist our church's ministries
....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025490#Comment_1025490

I can't see FL making inroads at that particular church, even with some radical new approach for church members themselves.

MJ listed an excellent selection of opportunities. (Not sure about that parishioner stuff ... smiling). I grew up in a church where we could nail a church headed straight for hell, if it had a kitchen. I guess I'm on that very sluppery slope.

But religious software largely represents that same fundementalist mindset of separating 'church worship' from believer community. And then holing up for a long winter. Jesus (and Paul, bless his heart) seemed oddly interested in people on their way up.

But yes, Petah. We can safely assume Logos will find another dataset to roll out, as they battle Accordance for the residual market.

Mathew Haferkamp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025564#Comment_1025564

Hey Denise, I have been using logos for over 12 years. The only thing logos does is help us learn more about the bible. If that makes it a small market that's ok but I believe Jesus and Paul would be in favor of learning the bible.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025594#Comment_1025594

The only thing logos does is help us learn more about the bible.

I have very little interest in learning "about the bible" - something that Logos does do. My interest is in getting to know the Bible and letting the Bible shape me. There is a very major gulf between "knowing about the Bible" and the "knowing the Bible". The first is the task of the scholar; the second is the task of the would-be mystic.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025594#Comment_1025594

Hey Denise, I have been using logos for over 12 years. The only thing logos does is help us learn more about the bible. If that makes it a small market that's ok but I believe Jesus and Paul would be in favor of learning the bible.

Hey Matthew

12 years is a long time. I suspect Jesus and Paul discussed considerably more than studying, no? Why limit yourself?

Mathew Haferkamp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025600#Comment_1025600

Hey MJ. Well I don't think the software is going to shape you, or any software. That is between you and God. All any software can do is inform you about the bible and the opinions of others.

Hey Denise, Well I am sure their was some personal conversation but this Paul was instructed to write down. It always escapes me why someone always thinks that God couldn't have given His whole and complete Opinion (the only Opinion that matters) in the bible.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025600#Comment_1025600

The only thing logos does is help us learn more about the bible.

I have very little interest in learning "about the bible" - something that Logos does do. My interest is in getting to know the Bible and letting the Bible shape me. There is a very major gulf between "knowing about the Bible" and the "knowing the Bible". The first is the task of the scholar; the second is the task of the would-be mystic.

I don't think the two poles of "scholar" and "mystic" exhaust the possible approaches here. There's the "servant" who wants to know the will of the Master, and the "adoptive child" who wants to get to know the Father . . . and doubtless others. In my mind the two really fundament divides are first, do you want to learn about the Bible primarily as a work of ancient literature, or do you believe it has a message that is directly relevant to your life, and second, do you see it as a purely human work, or do you understand it to be the word of God.

My guess is that by "scholar" you meant approaching it as a purely human work of ancient literature, and by "mystic" you meant approaching it as a personally relevant word from God. I just think "mystic" may have some additional connotations for some of us who would agree with you about the nature of Scripture and the importance of getting to know it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025645#Comment_1025645

Hey MJ. Well I don't think the software is going to shape you, or any software. That is between you and God. All any software can do is inform you about the bible and the opinions of others.

Hey Denise, Well I am sure their was some personal conversation but this Paul was instructed to write down. It always escapes me why someone always thinks that God couldn't have given His whole and complete Opinion (the only Opinion that matters) in the bible.

Hey Matthew ... I was referring to Jesus and you. Paul and you. If memory serves, the text only mentions studying the Bible (jewish Old Testament) once. Believing and behavior seem to be the overwhelming criticalities. Not worshipping the text.

As for your comment to MJ, actually 'delivery' does matter. Absent that, we could stop wasting so much money on pastors. Pastors, software, paper, papyri and even wayside inscriptions are simply delivery.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025476#Comment_1025476

Personally, I wouldn't try to 'change Logos' ... it works fine for the pastors. People would squeal. I'd quietly start anew in a couple of test evangelical churches, and I'd target Bible study and how folks work together ... in church, and away from. How women study ... they're more group oriented and structured. Guys tend to look more like Logos ... a study leader, cup of coffee and a clock. I'd include transportation planning, home repair, child care, and indirect medical support. Oh, yes, a food pantry. Does that sound radical? All the things Christians can (and do) share in.

Thank you.

I'm guessing, you're shaking your head.

Nope.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025645#Comment_1025645

Hey MJ. Well I don't think the software is going to shape you, or any software. That is between you and God. All any software can do is inform you about the bible and the opinions of others.

If software can't shape you, then neither can books... like the Bible. (Why? Because books can be read using software.) Nor can people be shaped by TV programs, the six o'clock news, movies, video games, card games, podcasts, blogs, phone calls, social media, etc.

Nonetheless, I think I understand your point. In Pastores Dabo Vobis, available for Logos here, Pope St. John Paul II wrote, "All formation, priestly formation included, is ultimately a self formation. No one can replace us in the responsible freedom that we have as individual persons."

If he's right, then products from FL, present and future, can never remove from individual congregants/parishioners their agency in "growing[ing themselves] in the light of the Bible." Nonetheless, future products from FL might be more broadly effective in that endeavour if they approach the task in significantly different ways than do Logos/Verbum, Proclaim, etc., now.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1025030#Comment_1025030

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

I'd argue (1) the church isn't being well served (software) and (2) Logos' main model is pouring information (sermons) into a progressively less interested group of believers.

That is not my experience. Also, it is certainly not the international reality. I suspect the Church will be here long after the "Nones" fad passes.