PBB - Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Milestones

I'm trying to make a Personal Book Resource of English translations that will scroll with the OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology.

I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly how to structure my docx file with milestones.

Here are some example wiki links (using Ctrl+Alt+C) to 1 Enoch 1:1 in different resources related to the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha:

OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology:
[[1 Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=BibleGP.1_En_1:1]]
Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (OTP):
[[1 Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:otpseud01;ref=BibleOTP.1_En_1:1]]
Charles' Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament (APOT):
[[Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:chaspot;ref=BibleCAP.Enoch1.1]]
Swete's OT in Greek:
[[Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:otgrkswetetxt;ref=BibleLXX2.Enoch1.1]]

Note that there are FOUR different datatypes associated with 1 Enoch alone (BibleGP; BibleOTP; BibleCAP; BibleLXX2). This does not even take into account various fragmentary texts, where the datatype is related to things the Panarion of Epiphanius or some other early writing in which the fragment is embedded (e.g., [[Epiphanius, Panarion 64.70.6 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=Epiphanius.Epiphanius,_Panarion_64.70.6]]).

So, the question is, which is the best to use? Is it best to just use the datatype given in the OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology?

Is there some over-arching datatype that will sync all OT Pseudepigrapha texts with this Personal Book?

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Comments

Ken McGuire

My understanding is that the different "Bible" datatypes are converted into each other. They are different because different Bibles can have slightly different versification. So I would just go with the datatype that matches what you are trying to deal with - namely BibleGP.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808490#Comment_808490

I ran into some problems when I was testing this a few months back. Unfortunately I don't recall precisely what so I'll need to remember to dig up my notes later today. However, Ken's advice for choosing a scheme is good advice.

NB.Mick

Note that there are FOUR different datatypes associated with 1 Enoch alone (BibleGP; BibleOTP; BibleCAP; BibleLXX2). This does not even take into account various fragmentary texts, where the datatype is related to things the Panarion of Epiphanius or some other early writing in which the fragment is embedded (e.g., [[Epiphanius, Panarion 64.70.6 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=Epiphanius.Epiphanius,_Panarion_64.70.6]]).

So, the question is, which is the best to use?

As Ken said, bible datatypes are automatically converted - however, you need to call them correctly.

Your posting mixes up datatypes with resources. Logosres-links link to resources, it's logosref-links (from reference) that link to datatypes - there's a detailed description from Mark Barnes in the wiki how to come from one to the other. For bible datatypes, you simply use them as you would bible - so it's [[any text >> biblelxx2: 1 Enoch 1:1 ]] (with 1 Enoch 1:1 it will work for all four versifications you name, Enoch 1:1 alone will work for Lxx2 and CAP) and should open the highest prioritized bible-indexed resource that cointains this text, e.g. for me it opens the Swete LXX for all of those.

EDIT: and after changing my prioritization, it opens the Lexham English Septuagint.

Mark Barnes

Is it best to just use the datatype given in the OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology?

That's probably simplest.

Here's a long answer. The reason there are different BibleXXXX datatypes is because different datatypes support different verse ranges. You should choose a Bible datatype that supports all the verses you're going to include in your book. You can see how they differ here : https://wiki.logos.com/Bible_Verse_Maps#id:1_Enoch.

Is there some over-arching datatype that will sync all OT Pseudepigrapha texts with this Personal Book?

No.

Pseudepigrapha referencing is a bit of a mess. (That's not completely Logos' fault, as I'm sure you know.) Passages that are canonical in some traditions will use the Bible datatype. Many other manuscripts have their own datatype. You'll have to determine the existing datatype for each document from an existing resource (use these instructions: https://wiki.logos.com/Finding_the_right_datatype_name_and_reference).

Jim Darlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808502#Comment_808502

Your posting mixes up datatypes with resources.

Hmm... the link examples above had the following:

logosres:greekpseud
logosres:otpseud01
logosres:chaspot
logosres:otgrkswetetxt

I thought that the text above was the "resource" and that the datatypes were:

ref=BibleGP
ref=BibleOTP
ref=BibleCAP
ref=BibleLXX2

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808508#Comment_808508

Hmm... the link examples above had the following:

logosres:greekpseud

logosres:otpseud01

logosres:chaspot

logosres:otgrkswetetxt

I thought that the text above was the "resource"

Yes, that's true.

and that the datatypes were:

ref=BibleGP

ref=BibleOTP

ref=BibleCAP

ref=BibleLXX2

no, these are parts of references to a certain position within the resource. A datatype is a resource-independent representation of a text, that Logos needs to set up (typically, because the text exists in multiple resources). Like "Calvin's Institutes Book 1 Par 1" or "John 3:16" which both refer to a text, but not to a specific resource / edition / translation ...

Jim Darlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808513#Comment_808513

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808513#Comment_808513

no, these are parts of references to a certain position within the resource. A datatype is a resource-independent representation of a text, that Logos needs to set up (typically, because the text exists in multiple resources). Like "Calvin's Institutes Book 1 Par 1" or "John 3:16" which both refer to a text, but not to a specific resource / edition / translation ...

I hate to contradict NB.Mick, but that isn't correct. Mick is confusing a datatype with a reference. A reference is a resource-independent representation of a text.

In this example [[1 Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=BibleGP.1_En_1:1]], you have two parts:

The resource: greekpseud
The reference: BibleGP.1_En_1:1

The reference is itself made up of two parts:

The datatype: BibleGP
The milestone: 1_En_1:1

So in this case the datatype is BibleGP, which is also known as Bible (GP). Datatypes are defined within the Logos application, and the datatype tells Logos how to handle the data associated with the datatype.

In the examples that NB.Mick gave, "Calvin's Institutes Book 1 Par 1" is a reference, which is made up of a datatype (Institutes of the Christian Religion) and a milestone (Institutes_I,_i). John 3:16 is also a reference, made up of a datatype (Bible) and a Milestone (John 3:16). Generally Logos will assume you're using a Bible milestone if you don't specify one.

Although in the example we've given, the reference is made up of a datatype and a milestone, that isn't always the case. For example a reference in the Factbook might look like this: bk.@BethanyBeyondTheJordan. In this case the datatype is bk (which I think stands for Biblical Knowledge). But @BethanyBeyondTheJordan isn't a milestone, but (I think) an entry in the Logos Controlled Vocabulary.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808617#Comment_808617

And the problem that we have with some pseudepigrapha is that it has two separate datatypes - early resources with a pseudepigraphic datatype and later resources with a Biblical datatype. They are not consistently mapped to each other.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808619#Comment_808619

And the problem that we have with some pseudepigrapha is that it has two separate datatypes - early resources with a pseudepigraphic datatype and later resources with a Biblical datatype. They are not consistently mapped to each other.

This is quite a concern. Compare the search results for <Bible 1_En> with <Pseudepigrapha 1 En>. The vast majority of my library is tagged for the latter.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808657#Comment_808657

This is quite a concern.

I know ... but last time I threw a fit about it no one else seemed to mind which is a common response when I speak of any expanded canon. [:(]

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808766#Comment_808766

The Pseduepigrapha datatypes are wonderful compared to the DSS datatypes...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/808787#Comment_808787

The Pseduepigrapha datatypes are wonderful compared to the DSS datatypes...

[:'(]

H. Smith

Jim and others,

Let me list below Old Testament - themed apocryphal writings or pseudigrapha that I've found that scholars consider to have Christian influence, interpolation or authorship. I am listing the scholars' rough estimates for dating first (They are all A.D.), followed by what I found for their use by early Christians. Perhaps you will find the list helpful or interesting.

Early 1st to late 5th c. Lives of the Prophets (Was widespread in mainstream Church)
1st to 2nd c. Testament of Abraham (once widespread among Christians)
1st to early 3rd c. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (Apostolic Constitutions consider it apocryphal, Numerous translations suggest widespread use; some scholars find it Docetic)
1st c. - 300 3 Baruch (Origen could have cited it)
1st c. - 300 4 Baruch (part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible)
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (Has Qumranite themes; St.Athanasius lists it among Apocrypha; 17th c. Armenian Bible apocrypha)
100-200 Odes of Solomon (quoted by Lactantius, 6th c. Synopsis Sacrae Scripture says it's read to catechumens)
2nd-3rd c. Testament of Jacob (Egyptian Jewish or Coptic; once widespread among Christians)
100-400 Testament of Isaac (Egyptian Jewish or Coptic; once widespread among Christians)
100-400 Testament of Adam (maybe gnostic or Encratitic. Differs from canonical story, making Cain's jealousy to be over his sister)
100-400 Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (from J. Charlesworth, "The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha"; From Books 7-8 of Apostolic Constitutions)
100-500 Apocalypse of Sedrach (EJW synopsis dates it to 150 AD or later)
100-900 Greek Apocalypse of Ezra[/color] (referred to in the Canon of Nicephorus c. 850 AD; Many writers date it as 150 or later)
90-218 4 Esdras (Vulgate) / 2 Esdras (Protestant) / 3 Esdras (Slavic), including Chp 7 w/ NSRV verses 35-105 (Canonical in the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible, Apocryphal in the Vulgate, Russian Bible, and KJV)

Out of these, the only ones that I noticed as being part of Biblical apocryphas were 4 Baruch (in the Ethiopian Bible), Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (that a 17th c. Armenian Bible included as apocrypha), and the most commonly used: 4 Esdras (which is in purple and is known as 2 Esdras in Protestant Bibles).

Do you (or others on this forum) see any others in this list as being included in any Biblical apocryphas?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1027732#Comment_1027732

Welcome to the forums. I'm not sure what you mean by "Biblical apocryphas" so I'm not quite sure how to answer you. You seem to have a good grasp of their historical canonical status.

H. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1027791#Comment_1027791

Thanks for your welcome, MJ.

By Biblical apocryphas, I meant the books that are included in some Bibles and that are considered apocryphal. Let me give some examples:

The Vulgate included 4 Esdras and the Letter to the Laodecians (self-attributed to Paul but perhaps actually written by Marcion or another forger), but they were put in an Apocrypha section. IIRC, the Pope did this "lest they" perish entirely. ie. he believed that they weren't canonical, but he worried that if they weren't included at all, they could get lost over time.

The Russian Bibles include 4 Esdras in the list of OT books under the name "3 Esdras", but the Orthodox Church considers it to be apocryphal. For example, the famous Russian Bible commentor Lopuhin interpreted 4 Esdras as saying that the Messiah would live 400 years and then die naturally, and he said that this book reflected "the blindness of the Jews" for that reason, IIRC.

The KJV included 4 Esdras in a special section entitled Apocrypha that it placed with geographic maps and was located between the OT and the NT.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1028086#Comment_1028086

By Biblical apocryphas, I meant the books that are included in some Bibles and that are considered apocryphal.

Ah, now I understand. I tend to use the term "appendix" for these. I'd have to say that there isn't really a comprehensive answer because in many cases where we have books bound together, we don't know for certain what canonical status was assigned to the books. I'm thinking specifically of Armenian and Georgian Bibles here. The Logos Canon Comparison tool may be of some help, but it is not exhaustive.

For example, the Asdvadzashunch is shown to have the following works which meet your description:

Joseph and Aseneth
Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs
The Martyrdom of Isaiah
The Epistles of Jesus Christ and Abgarus King of Edessa
3 Corinthians
Acts of Paul and Thecla

The Assyrian Church of the East has:

3 Maccabees
Psalms of Solomon

Beta Israel has:

The Conversation of Moses
Death of Aaron
Death of Moses
Precepts of Sabbath
Students
Book of Hours
Father Elija
Book of Angels
Book of Priest
Homily on Abraham and Sarah in Egypt
The Acts of Susanna
In the Beginning God Created

Samaritan Pentateuch

Joshua

Codex Alexandrinus

Epistle of Athanasius to Mercallinus on the Psalms
Hypothese of Eusebius of Pamphilius
Canons of the Daytime Psalms
Canons of the Nightly Psalms
Psalms of Solomon

Erznka Bible

St. Ephraem on Joseph
Letter of Eusebius
Repose of St. John
Testimonies of Paul
Colophon of Euthalius
Sea voyage of Paul
Epistle of Euthalius

Wycliffe's Bible

Laodicensis

Sixto-Clementine Vulgate

Prayer of Manasses
3 Esdras
4 Esdras

Baberdatsi, Lvov Bible

Letter of Eusebius
Epistle of Euthalius
Testimonies of Paul
Colophon of Euthalius
Repose of John
Poem of Ghazar

Slavonic Elizabeth Bible

3 Esdras
4 Maccabees

NRSV Ecumenical Edition

4 Maccabees

and so on ...

H. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1028139#Comment_1028139

Good answer.

H. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1028139#Comment_1028139

Ah, now I understand. I tend to use the term "appendix" for these. I'd have to say that there isn't really a comprehensive answer because in many cases where we have books bound together, we don't know for certain what canonical status was assigned to the books. I'm thinking specifically of Armenian and Georgian Bibles here. The Logos Canon Comparison tool may be of some help, but it is not exhaustive.

Dear MJ,

Thanks again for your helpful answer. Listen, do you think that there is a good place online, or on this forum, to discuss the apocryphal Old Testament-themed books that we discussed, like 4 Esdras, the Ascension and Martyrdom of Isaiah, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, and the Live of the Prophets?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1028902#Comment_1028902

Perhaps http://earlywritings.com/forum/ due to the parallel http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/?

H. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1028940#Comment_1028940

Thanks.

H. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1028940#Comment_1028940

M.J.,

One of the curious things about the apocryphal book of the Greek Apocalypse of Ezra is what period it was written in. It was written apparently based on 4 Esdras (written in the first century or later), and apparently listed in the canon of Pat. Nicephorus (in c. 850 AD), but it's harder to be more specific.

For example, it appears either a re-writing of the Latin Vision of Ezra, or a re-writing of a Greek text that the Latin Vision itself used. And the Church started taking up Latin as a major literary language in Jerome's time (4th century). Plus, the Greek text has elements of Late Greek, which was used in the late 2nd- late 7th centuries AD. But they could have been introduced in the re-writing process and could be lacking in the potential original Greek version. I made a thread about this question here: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/when-do-you-think-the-apocalypse-of-ezra-was-written.8117315/

Let me know if you have ideas about that.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1052896#Comment_1052896

It's been a while since I explored the issue ... my notes which are several years old:

1.1.1 Ezra material

The two Hebrew books of Ezra and Nehemiah are frequently treated as a single volume called variously Ezra, Ezra-Nehemiah, 1 Esdras or 2 Esdras. Additional Ezra materials considered canonical or pseudepigraphical include:

Greek Ezra which includes s paraphrase of 2 Chronicles 35-36; Hebrew Ezra, Nehemiah 7:38-8:12, and additional tale of Darius’ bodyguards.
Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra (Apocalyptic Esdras) written c. 100 A.D. was highly influential in Jewish theology at the end of the first century.
Greek Apocalypse of Ezra (The Word and Revelation of Esdras) which was influenced by the preceding. It is a Christian work.
Questions of Ezra is a late work known from an Armenian manuscript.
Revelation of Ezra is a kalandologion[1] and may be among the books condemned by Nicephorus.
Vision of Ezra is another Christian apocalypse influenced by the Ezra Apocalypse.

The composition and titles of the four books most frequently in canons are shown in the following chart. The scholarly titles are used in the canon comparison tool often with a note to remind the user of the precise content.

Masoretic Hebrew	NRSV	Latin Vulgate	Greek Septuagint	Slavonic tradition	Scholarly alternative
Ezra	Ezra	1 Esdras	Esdras B	1 Esdras	Ezra-Nehemiah
Ezra	Nehemiah	2 Esdras (Nehemias)	Esdras B	Nehemiah	Ezra-Nehemiah
	1 Esdras	3 Esdras	Esdras A (Greek Esdras)	2 Esdras	Greek Ezra
	2 Esdras	4 Esdras (Latin Esdras)		3 Esdras	4 Esdras (Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra, Apocalyptic Esdras)
					5 Esdras
					6 Esdras

4 Esdras is chapters 3-14 of the Latin Esdras

5 Esdras is chapters 1-2 of the Latin Esdras

6 Esdras is chapters 15-16 of the Latin Esdras

[1] "... kalandologion, or document that describes the characteristics of a year according to which day of the week it begins on ..." James H. Charlesworth, “Pseudepigrapha,” ed. Erwin Fahlbusch et al., The Encyclopedia of Christianity (Grand Rapids, Mich.; Leiden, Netherlands: Wm. B. Eerdmans; Brill, 2005), 412.

H. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1052932#Comment_1052932

Dear M.J.,

My main question about this was what group of centuries do you believe that the Greek Apocalypse of Ezra was written in. The reason is because I want to see if it is an early Christian text or not.

You helpfully sorted out the Ezra books, including:

[quote]

Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra (Apocalyptic Esdras) written c. 100 A.D. was highly influential in Jewish theology at the end of the first century.
Greek Apocalypse of Ezra (The Word and Revelation of Esdras) which was influenced by the preceding. It is a Christian work.

The Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra (c. 100 AD) is the same as 4-6 Esdras in your rectangular table of 1-6 Esdras.
The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra is not among the 6 books of Ezra in your rectangular table, but rather was written after them.

I made a post with some more information about my question here:

When do you think the Apocalypse of Ezra was written?
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/when-do-you-think-the-apocalypse-of-ezra-was-written.8117315/